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sagrotan ,
@sagrotan@lemmy.world avatar

Alfred Hitchcock “Birds” - the revolution is coming!

RandomVideos ,

Communist spy drones

doctorcrimson ,

So we’re planning to tax the rich to fund homebuilding projects like in China or Australia? I could dig it, but can we do that part BEFORE we ban mortgages? Because otherwise we’ll just be creating a homeless dystopia like Mao Zedong’s.

PatFussy , (edited )

Didn’t Venezuela try this under Chavez? How did that go?

Edit: we are missing a few minutes of you pro communist guys here. Where is @tokenboomer or @microwave at they are late

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Pretty good till the price of oil plummeted, single resource economies are ticking time bombs.

PatFussy ,

What do you mean ‘till the price of oil plummeted"? The whole world plummeted in the 08’ crash. Sure the price per barrel plummeted in 2009 but the price of oil has since gone up to those early 2000’s levels…

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Texas_Intermediate

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Bruh, Venezuela has some of the dirtiest crude on the planet and lacks the ability to refine it themselves relying on American refineries which have had an embargo against importing Venezuelan oil till last year, you are so out of yout depth in global economics is laughable.

VikingHippie ,

Venezuela is an example of a petrostate, where the government is highly dependent on fossil fuel income.

Petrostates are vulnerable to what economists call Dutch disease, in which a government develops an unhealthy dependence on natural resource exports to the detriment of other sectors.

The oil price plunge from more than $100 per barrel in 2014 to under $30 per barrel in early 2016 sent Venezuela into an economic and political spiral, and despite rising prices since then, conditions remain bleak.

(Source: Council of Foreign Relations)

So yeah, socialism didn’t kill the Venezuelan economy, over-reliance on fossil fuel did.

Ookami38 ,

Like most socialist nations that failed throughout history, socialism didn’t kill them, America did.

PatFussy , (edited )

Remind me what was the price per barrel when Chavez started? Also, what is the price per barrel today?

Edit: without writing a fucking monologue, what was the price. Please I would love to know

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Here’s a video that will educate you about Venezuela’s oil problems. Sorry life isn’t as simple as your logical faculties.

PatFussy ,

I asked for a number not a video. Don’t deflect please, I know the reasons are not price related.

I want a number. Tell me why the price of oil dropping is the reason they failed. I want to be educated with a number.

Here I will help,

Price per Venezuela crude oil barrel in 1999: _ . __

Price per Venezuela crude oil barrel in 2024: _ . __

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

🤓

VikingHippie ,

Why do you want to know? Do you think Chavez singlehandedly controlled the price of oil?

You know that’s a worldwide commodity, the price of which is affected by myriad factors out of any one country’s control, right?

There’s no such thing as “price of Venezuelan crude oil” seperate from the price of all other crude oil.

pearsaltchocolatebar ,

“I don’t understand sociology or economics and expect everything to be provided for free”

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

What was the last book on economics you read?

pearsaltchocolatebar ,

It’s been a few years since my economics minor, but likely more recently than you.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Considering you cant name a book, i doubt it. I’m currently reading The Value of Everything by Mariana Mazzucato and Yurugu by Marimba Ani. I cant recommend both of them enough. Its about culture as much as it is about economics.

pearsaltchocolatebar ,

I mean, no. I’m not going to go dig up the syllabus for my econ classes just to prove a point.

You clearly don’t understand economics if you think paying for housing for 335,000,000 citizens is even remotely feasible without a major tax increases on everyone.

Communism is a nice thought experiment, but it’ll never actually work because humans are awful.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

So you haven’t read a book on economics since you graduated, got it.

explodicle ,

“Humans are awful” is why they call econ the dismal science; did they actually present that as a reason why communism wouldn’t work when your classes covered it?

Jax ,

I would imagine that the primary reason anyone thinks communism will fail is that greed is too rampant amongst many people these days. I happen to agree, communism is nice to think about but I have worked for the state of California. I’ve seen what having a job that you do next to nothing at, get paid a liveable wage on, and basically can’t be fired from has done to state govt. It’s a fucking mess. These are people who, right now, are complaining about homeless people despite the only thing separating them is the fact that they were lucky enough to know someone who worked for the state. I mean it when I say they quite literally do nothing and get paid for it.

Cali state govt is socialist as fuck, and the outcome is things like millions of peoples information being leaked. We’re talking social security numbers, drivers license, where you live, etc. If you can’t tell me how you avoid the equivalent of things like this happening in a communist govt (because the outcome with communist govt corruption is worse by a large margin) then I just turn my brain off and stop reading.

explodicle ,

I assume that when everyone else in this thread is talking about socialism and communism, they mean like the Wikipedia definitions, not just more government.

Jax ,

Well, considering OP likes to name drop books they’re apparently reading on economics I’d say we’re dealing with a different class of duning-kruger.

OurToothbrush ,

Cali state govt is socialist as fuck

Wait Californians democratically own and manage the means of production? Holy shit.

Oh you mean a liberal state that has slightly higher taxes :(

Jax ,

No, you silly head, I’m talking about the people who work for the state. I’m not talking about the state itself.

Fucks sake, pay attention.

OurToothbrush ,

How are the people who work for the state socialist in practice? They work for a capitalist state.

Also are you claiming the state(as in the government and associated entities) is distinct from the employees that make up the state government? How?

Jax ,

Uh, it’s hard to explain and I definitely was not using the correct words. I don’t know what I was saying, I had a point but I did not use the right words at all.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

Having bureaucracy managed by an AI with everything heavily encrypted would put a stop to a lot of bullshit. Just saying

Jax ,

No, it wouldn’t, because in order for that to be put in place the union would have to agree to it. The union will do everything and I mean every single thing to make sure everyone knows that this shit is fucked.

The union for state employees (in the state of California) is good at two things: keeping itself alive, and making sure that state employees are protected to insane degrees (like being able to sue your manager for a HOST of reasons).

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

I’m confused, are we assuming a peaceful implementation of these policies or for them to be put in place by a new government post-revolution?

PatFussy ,

This is some hard hexbear vibes. Asking for titles of books read is unbearably cringe.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

If one is a student if economics, naming a book on economics to confirm your bonafides is as low a bar to jump over as humanly possible. Books aren’t cringe, you are just basic.

PatFussy ,

Cringe

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Says the user, who’s last post was wishing for more porn on the internet, bahahaha

PatFussy ,

Mega cringe you looked at my post history, saw a monkeys paw shitpost and thought I was being serious.

https://imgs.search.brave.com/K1k2MDdvgpcHdlptOF9aYrMfwbNN8RCFxfMjSfmmlWg/rs:fit:860:0:0/g:ce/aHR0cHM6Ly9tZWRp/YS50ZW5vci5jb20v/SDZVdDJHZDB5M01B/QUFBai9jcmluZ2Ut/ZmFjZS1jcmluZ2Ut/bWVtZS5naWY.gif

Updoots

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

🤓

PatFussy ,

Are we best friends or what. Just goofing around am i right chat? Can I get 5 upvotes and remember to smash that bell

OurToothbrush ,

Anti-intellectualism at its finest folks

PatFussy ,

Thanks for chiming in

OsrsNeedsF2P ,

No problem, PatFussy

c0mbatbag3l ,
@c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world avatar

Progress and Poverty, and you still can’t just have everything for free even in a better system.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

I’ll have to add that to my list, always looking to learn more.

c0mbatbag3l ,
@c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world avatar

It’s a good read, makes you realize how swindled we got, and what we might have had if they’d adopted these ideas in the late 1800’s.

explodicle ,

Wouldn’t the LVT+UBI that Henry George proposes effectively cancel rent and then some? We’d be getting paid 100% of the surplus from land use, not just a safety net.

deaf_fish ,

I am not aware of a way to have coercion free society. But I am very sure we can massively reduce the amount of coercion necessary to keep our current society running well.

pearsaltchocolatebar ,

Not disagreeing, but the message of “cancel all rent and mortgages,” is silly and shows a clear lack of understanding on how the world works.

tdawg ,

What idiot thinks anyone wants “stuff for free.” What the fuck do you think taxes are? We aren’t expecting people to shit houses out of their asses. We’re expecting our government WHICH WE PAY to provide us with basic dignity

pearsaltchocolatebar ,

Did you not read the comic?

Also, I’m not sure why you think the government owes every citizen a house.

I’m not arguing against social safety nets, but straight up paying for housing for every citizen is how you end up with everyone living in shoebox apartments.

I’m sure that you haven’t even considered the numbers at all on this. If you think the current taxes will pay for it, you’re mistaken.

Even if we took the entire military budget, that would be less than $2,500 per citizen per year.

Jax ,

So far the people advocating for communism ITT are not even sly about shifting goalposts with the wind.

Specifically OP, OP responded to a comment about free housing being unrealistic with “single income families should be allowed to exist” followed by something else that wasn’t relevant to free housing being unrealistic.

At this point I just think they’re big communism shills. (I shouldn’t have to say this is a joke, but I know that I do.)

pearsaltchocolatebar ,

They’re just children who expect everything to be hand fed to them by the government and have no sense of nuance. They look at the utopia that communism promises without realizing that humans are selfish and greedy animals, so it’ll never work.

These people are a good example of why echo chambers are a bad thing. They don’t stop to think about why their beliefs might be wrong.

OurToothbrush ,

Humans are shaped by their material conditions

Also if humans were naturally greedy it would make sense for 99 percent of humanity to overthrow the 1 percent and distribute the benefits of society more equally.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Also if humans are naturally greedy it would make even less sense to stick with a capitalist system

tdawg ,

“it took me three seconds to come up with a BAD implementation, which not a single person in this thread asked for, which doesn’t work! Therefore ALL implementations are bad! Ha!”

Daft_ish ,

Really makes you THINK.

Ookami38 ,

There’s a huge gulf between what this comic says (essentially housing, a basic human necessity) should be free, and what you’re attacking (everything is free). One of those is ABSOLUTELY doable. We live in a world of gross excess, if we stop arguing over how to kill people more efficiently, stop worrying about printing more money, we could give people a small home. Of course someone still has to pay/work for it, no one’s stupid lol.

Even if it’s a “shoebox apartment” it’s better than streets. It’s one of the basic requirements for life. And who’s to say that provided home has to be your only option?

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

Honestly, even if we replaced current employment with a 10-year indentured servitude contract with a guaranteed 1000 sq. ft. home and free utilities and maintenance for the rest of your life, that’d still be better than what we have now in a lot of ways.

People only like the system we’re in because it provides the illusion of choice, not actual choices.

OurToothbrush , (edited )

“Hey wait a second why isn’t the state enforcing my property relations for free? The peasants aren’t paying rent, someone shoot them!”

frezik ,

There’s an entire corpus of books and documents critiquing the current system and on how a society based on mutual aid would work. None of them “expect everything to be provided for free”.

tory ,

USSR style. We can all be our ideal selves. We can finally be writers and artists living in our own large single family homes who teach children on the side, but only when we feel up to it.

And no one has to be the guy who works on the sewers or anything unpleasant like that. Plus, maybe someone wants to do that work, idk. And if not, uh… robots can do it. Who builds, programs, hauls around, and uses the robots whose sole job is to unclog sewers? Uh, nerds, I guess. Or… other robots, maybe, idk.

There will be no need for forced labor at all under this new system.

eezeebee ,
@eezeebee@lemmy.ca avatar

Are we looking at the same meme? I don’t see anything about not working or having other expenses.

c0mbatbag3l ,
@c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world avatar

Free housing is just as unrealistic as not working.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Single income families should be allowed to exist, families are more important than corporate profits. Furthermore it is unrealistic to not work and just collect rent from folks who do

eezeebee ,
@eezeebee@lemmy.ca avatar

I could settle for a reality where housing isn’t free, just affordable.

tory , (edited )

You lack vision here. If we’re canceling mortgages, then why not get rid of other expenses? Surely water heat and electricity are human rights and should be covered by taxes. And we could all likely agree on food as well. Why would we coerce people to work jobs they dislike? We could live our ideal lives if only we dismantled the economic system one layer at a time.

…just don’t think about the details of how we’ll encourage people to do dirty jobs or you’ll get downvoted. That’s bad vibes.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Yes.

null ,

At least you admit it.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

Or just build a neoagrarian economic system that doesn’t require people to be coerced into doing shit jobs, as they now have high technology to help them build their own shit.

Even septic tanks could be dug, installed and pumped through automation if we all branded together and invested the time and effort into building it instead of being discouraged by people like you.

But you know, why try? After all, someone has to be a slave so let’s keep enslaving each other so you can be comfortable, right? Fuck everyone else. Only you matter

tory ,

So if I wasn’t here- y’all would up and start building the utopia and get the septic robots working.

If you say so. Hey, you know what? Please go ahead and start working on those things regardless. If you manage to build an autonomous sewage worker, you could probably make a lot of money while you wait for the economic system to change. Feel free to comment with your progress, I wish you luck.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

Don’t worry, we will. You’ll likely end up coming to us with a hand out when all’s set and done, so it all works out.

tory ,

All I’m hearing is fantasies from people who can’t pay their rent/mortgage and would rather burn it all down without a plan than work a 9-5. But sure, we’ll automate everything and no one will have to work and we can all live in big houses and play video games and post on social media all day.

I mean, obviously, I won’t be automating everything. That sounds like work. Someone probably wants to solve all the problems, though. We can let them do it in their spare time while we chill. I presume that’s you?

Honestly, it sounds awesome. Lmk when I can quit my job and not pay monthly bills.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

No, you’re literally not listening. I proposed not one but two pragmatic suggestions to implement what we’re asking for, and instead of thinking about what I’m saying, you’re just laughing me off and dismissing me because you don’t care about having an honest conversation. You’re just here to vent your emotions and pick on left-wingers who you view as beneath you.

You forget that my suggestions aren’t actually for you. They’re for the benefit of everyone else in the thread. You’re nothing but a springboard for us to jump off of to think and actually make what we want happen.

I guess sitting on your rotten, cigarette hole filled couch in your rotting Alabama trailer and putting down anyone who is different from you is better than actually doing anything to better your life. Like getting a GED, or actually doing honest work instead of living off of government benefits and hypocritically attacking anyone who supports government programs to help the needy like yourself.

I don’t judge you though. 🤷

tory ,

I’m from the North and vote Democrat. I just like to live in reality. You know, where we think about things like who is going to do the dirty jobs when no one has to work unless they want to.

What was your solution for that again?

… And when that half assed solution doesn’t work, are we gonna go without sewers, or are the people with guns going to force someone to do it with the threat of violence?

But no, you’re not living in a fantasy.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Bruh, its about valuing the people who work on the sewer more than the people who work at banks making money out of thin air. Its about shifting the whole paradigm of our society and focusing on what matters, I wouldn’t expect a “tory” to understand that though.

tory ,

Plumbers make a lot of money for a reason, yes.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

So why do folks who speculate and gamble with more money than a plumber will see in their lifetime make so much money while providing effectively nothing of value to society?

tory ,

Good question, we should probably tax the rich and make owning more than 3 homes illegal or something.

But if we’re canceling mortgages, then why not strive for the ideal world, ya know?

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Here’s the thing, we should strive for an ideal world.

tory ,

The ideal world isn’t a realistic world unless you can solve for plumbing, etc. If the meme was tax the rich, I’d have upvoted and moved on. We should improve the world we have rather than strive for dreams.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

My guy, we have solved plumbing. You lack vision, i dont want to tax the rich, I want to abolish the system that allows the rich to exist in the first place.

tory ,

Yes! Onward toward a USSR style system that somehow doesn’t involve forced labor, comrade!

Jax ,

Wants communism, doesn’t understand that it doesn’t solve the problem of no one wanting to clean up shit.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Shits on communism, has no basic understanding of how a centrally run economy functions.

Jax ,

No no, I definitely do. I’m not the one willfully ignoring the reality of how ridiculous “everyone can be artists and writers and no one has to work” sounds.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Lol clearly you dont.

OurToothbrush ,

I mean soviet states fixed that by giving better amenities, lower hours, or earlier retirement to people working harder or more unpleasant jobs.

Do plumbers currently have better amenities, lower hours, or earlier retirement than capitalists who do literally nothing?

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

To each according to their needs from each according to their abilities, and I love how you are just going to ignore how labor is forced in a capitalist system by the threat of dying on the streets if you dont show up to work. Labor is forced in America every damn day.

tory ,

I’m not ignoring it at all, I even highlighted it in another comment above.

It is hard to beat the current system that encourages people to work a single profession for ~30 years 5 days a week in order to foster expertise. And somehow, (rightly or not) manages to make most of them feel like they do it willingly.

I am highlighting the very much more clearly forced labor that arises in communist systems. The kind that people can’t gaslight themselves into thinking they do willingly. Which you seem to be ignoring as hard as you can. Stunning projection tbh.

OurToothbrush , (edited )

Youre comparing making monarchists and nazi POWs (and due to corruption other folks getting caught up in that) work to repair the soviet union to making slaves out of drug addicts in the United States and somehow thinking the former is worse.

Alsephina ,

Yup that’s the plan

explodicle ,

If only there was a way to encourage people to do things besides forcing them.

tory ,

It is hard to beat the current system that encourages people to work a single profession for ~30 years 5 days a week in order to foster expertise. And somehow, (rightly or not) manages to make most of them feel like they do it willingly.

explodicle ,

The previous system beat it; fostering expertise across generations by inheriting your job from your dad. And they thought they were free too.

Imgonnatrythis ,

Ah yes, good old fear.

JimmyBigSausage ,

Sounds great but who is paying for it?

SnotFlickerman ,
@SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Have you heard of this idea called “taxes?”

More than that, are you familiar with the idea of taxes being spent on more than just bloated military and police?

JimmyBigSausage ,

Ok just wondering

Sheeple ,
@Sheeple@lemmy.world avatar

Stop JAQing off

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Its easier, for most, to imagine the end of the world than the end of Capitalism.

SnotFlickerman ,
@SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

A fan of Zizek film analysis? That’s definitely one of his positions, related to how much post-apocalyptic media still portrays capitalism in practice post-apocalypse.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Haven’t heard of em, I’ll have to check em out though!

SnotFlickerman ,
@SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Slavoj Zizek / Pervert’s Guide to Ideology / Pervert’s Guide to Cinema

pleb_maximus ,

Pervert’s Guide

Sounds like I really should check this out.

Cold_Brew_Enema ,

Can you tell me how to get to the fantasy land you are living in where this is possible?

spfhaar ,

Tell me what type of society you are imagining please, in the real world it is already difficult for the average entrepreneur not to evade VAT on at least 30% of his purchases, because if we don’t talk about Nordic countries or Switzerland then I don’t see it feasible how people can accept even more interventions from the government in their lives.

Bonskreeskreeskree ,

Just curious, do you want everyone living in cookie cutter multifamily boxes or are people allowed to have houses and different size pieces of land and buildings in your utopia?

Ensign_Crab ,

Questions no one ever asks about bailouts or the military.

JimmyBigSausage ,

This is true.

pearsaltchocolatebar ,

And?

Do you have a cost analysis on giving everyone free housing? I’d wager it’s astronomically higher than bailouts or the military.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Society should work towards a better life for all, not better profits for a few.

pearsaltchocolatebar ,

I don’t disagree, but that platitude has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Your comic said to cancel all rent and mortgages and give everyone a house, which is not even remotely economically feasible.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Its not economically feasible because modern economics functions to create monetary value not tangible value for our society. You shouldn’t view it through the lense of what is “economically feasible” we should view it through the lense of what we should value as a society. Homelessness exists as a motivating coercive force to keep us buying into a system that would kick us to the curb if any of us were dealt a few bad hands in life. Its why our insurance is tied to our employment. The system is fundamentally broken for humanity to exsist inside of healthily, so much so that alot of us cant even imagine a society outside of it.

null ,

Lots of “what”, zero “how”.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

The second i read this comment, the State Anthem of the USSR got stuck in my head.

null ,

Yawn. Let us know what you have actionable steps. Daydreaming is easy and worthless.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

My guy, you are aware the the whole point of the solar punk movement is about using daydreaming and art about an ideal utopia to help bring it about right? Imagination is one of humanity’s superpowers, and I’m currently building the class conciousness necessary to have an actionable future, where the end goal is an extremely solar punk esc future, I am not under the illusion that I will live to seek the future I am fighting for, but that doesnt mean I’m not going to keep working towards it by spreading its message.

null ,

Yawn. Still no answers about the basics.

“Let’s just end murder” – Wow, I’m engaging in important political thinking!

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Yawn, adding nothing to the conversation while shitting on it.

null ,

Nope, I think others have contributed meaningfully and I’m supporting what they’re saying.

You on the other hand refuse to engage with anything of substance. That’s what I’m shitting on.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

🥱

null ,

How original.

Keep patting yourself on the back for shallow thinking, I guess.

Grayox OP ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

Will do!

Bye ,

The bailouts were loans. The us govt got that money back.

Those banks should have been punished though, allowed to fail.

Ensign_Crab ,

They didn’t know that they would get the money back at the time.

explodicle ,

Yes, the private sector did have enough capital to cover those loans. The public sector did it because it was a bad investment when you count opportunity cost.

Tak ,
@Tak@lemmy.ml avatar

Didn’t the bailouts return less money with inflation though? We can’t even give students less interest than inflation with student loans. If the tables were turned the banks wouldn’t have taken less than 5% interest.

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