Hmm. Self-organizing projects whose workers work on them entirely based on their need to be done, and the results freely distributed to anyone who wants a copy?
I think it is not. Certainly most projects aren’t solely personal utilities, but devs working for fun rather than profit will almost inevitably produce something skewed towards their own tastes and skills. See: the presentation of any FOSS graphical app vs a paid equivalent.
Things like FOSS stuff makes you think people can organize and work together freely to achieve a common goal, and maybe anarchy could work. But then, you see a busy intersection when the traffic lights go out and you realize the general public are idiots and everything devolves into selfish chaos as you’re stuck a half mile back, as cars shoot through in no particular order and you inch closer to the madness terrified to make your left turn. I have zero trust in society without some form of rule and order.
Decentralization doesn’t necessarily mean disorganization. You can create a Lemmy instance with no moderation and rely purely on the community itself to self moderate, much like someone can create an instance with rules, and if someone disagrees with the rules they can create their own. Both are part of a decentralized system, so no one is actually coerced into participating in any system by regulation, just social pressure.
Think about a roundabout though in comparison, no lights or specific order, and there is a learning curve, but overall they reduce traffic better then stoplights under many conditions.
I guess my point is sort of extrapolating that a structure/presentation also heavily influences how users perceive or use a product/idea
That’s a pretty weak definition. “Legitimate” especially is a vacuous term, and every form of democracy ever proposed is (theoretically) “accountable”.
Sure, but is that how we talk about our institutions? Things I hear that buck anarchism while supporting American democracy:
The Constitution should be interpreted with “originalism” or at the very least venerated
Police sacrifice X, therefore it’s okay if they do extralegal Y
I’m not saying there aren’t systems of accountability that legitimize various institutions. It’s that the stories we tell to legitimize an institution comes in many different flavors, and those based on authority from power/position (ie “our founding fathers were smart people”) are not accepted by anarchists. Edit: Imagine how different our legal framework would be if it reflected that mentality?
I think I almost understand what you’re getting at. If I do, it’s uncodifiable. You can’t draft an organisational system with a clause that no one is allowed to use logical fallacies to defend it.
I find it a bit ironic that cars and traffic lights are being used as a metaphor for why anarchy won’t work. Let’s put aside that the example is of poor collective planning to build urban environments. Go to Vietnam and see how people drive without traffic lights, it’s complete madness. But it works, and in some ways it works better than what we have because the accidents are fewer and less severe while also serving more diverse modes of traffic.
I was there, Gandalf. I was there when they released it on the internet and you could play the first few levels multiplayer for free. Installed on the university computers…
Playing our hidden games on the school’s network. Good times. Back then if you knew a few lines of code you could give your session administrator privileges. That was when internet security existed because so few people knew how to use a computer, let alone a local network or the internet. An entire computer lab playing against another entire computer lab in whatever those games were called. The most popular was light cycles, an open source Tron clone.
Same with flying cars. At least with regular ground cars you won’t have a car come crashing through your wall if you don’t live on the bottom floor – although I’m sure some bright spark has managed to do that with a regular car, it takes real dedication to stupidity to manage without a flying car. Or if someone cuts you off in traffic, they’re usually coming from either your left or right side, not from above or below too
Software exists in a world that kind of exists outside of property. Cynics like to think that Agile got big because as some kind of fad because the kids love it, but the reality is that fully hierarchical models just cannot keep up with self organising teams.
The old model - the model that most of the rest of the world of work still uses - simply cannot compete on a level playing field where the means of production (a cheap computer) are available to all. A landowner can stop you building your own house, but Microsoft can’t really stop you building your own software, so they still have to put in work to collect rent.
Imagine what we could accomplish as a species if the goals and distribution of resources were also decided democratically.
Thank you for everything you said in the back half! In regards to the first idea – do you think agile is half way to self-management because of its attributes, or because it is something to get people making software in a structured capacity? I live in a world of bad agiles and agile cynics, and so I wonder if I am missing some nuance you may have intended. I guess I ask because I agree with everything you have said but don’t see agile methodology as being important to spreading this message myself.
Agile is a limited form of workplace democracy that succeeded because the usual forms of disciplining workers couldn’t be enforced to stop it. It’s taken off in software because the outlay for software is so low that people can just quit their jobs and start a rival project with preferable working conditions. It’s stuck around because it’s significantly more effective than dictat.
I have problems with agile too. A lot of the “ceremonies” seem more like cult rituals and bad practices are often assumed to be self justifying when they should be interrogated. (I once had a bust up in the office because I insisted in creating a future proof test framework instead of writing just what’s needed at the time. I was overruled and I’m still mad about it).
So I guess my point isn’t even about the specific agile practices either.
The point is that workers are able to self manage when they’re allowed to, and agile has accidentally proven this to be the case. Other work places should adopt some of these ideas. And these ideas should be pushed further, into business decisions and HR and management. And physical communities etc. all the way up to actual government.
Interesting perspective, never really looked at it like that, I’ve always just interacted with the corporatized bullshit implementations of Agile.
It seems Agile really did have a kernel of worker self management in it but the original people behind it didn’t have the right ideological framework to realize that this is what they’re trying to achieve.
As I’ve been putting it: software is made of labor.
Unfortunately the actual reason Agile got big is that the cult of MBAs saw daily meetings putting scores on estimates and absolutely creamed their slacks.
What is impact engineering though? If it’s it’s just agile while being cognisant of technical debt over MVPs, I don’t know if it’s necessarily that different.
It seems the study was designed to sell a book and I can’t find anything about what that book says. I should probably read it but the bait way it’s being sold makes me resistant to paying to find out.
The goddamn article you yourself posted as the proof mentions how it’s an ad right at the top
Even though the researchcommissioned by consultancy Engprax could be seen as a thinly veiled plug for Impact Engineering methodology, it feeds into the suspicion that the Agile Manifesto might not be all it’s cracked up to be
Yeah haha it’s really weird and I tend to switch between the “normal” way and the “french” way without noticing. Basically in french the rule is that if your symbol is “tall” ( ! , ? , brackets, semicolon, I think dashes as well…) it needs to be preceded by a space
There’s some weird witch hunt going on against Dessalines on there. I don’t agree with him on everything, but them trying to hound him out for being a communist, whilst using software he made because he’s a communist is kinda funny.
Him being communist isn’t the problem, throwing his weight around unnecessarily is what is upsetting people. And he just keeps doing it. Like he just gets in a mood and decides to ban a bunch of people for fake violations they didn’t actually do. It’s all logged and people with high enough status can see the logs. He goes on tirades.
At his level of power, he can apparently make some changes and then delete the log of them. Only other server admins can see it then. But I’m getting this second hand from other server admins, haven’t seen it myself.
Honestly I am dismayed we have this dumb ass reddit culture take hold. Not everything you disagree with must be bannned from the sub defederated immediately, your instance doesnt owe you a feed that’s exactly how you like it. Defederation should be the last resort, since it entirely breaks communication and interaction between the instance’s users.
Instead, use the client side blocking features to clean up your feed. Personally I have blocked over 80 communities and users because they are centered around topics or beliefs I dont want on my feed, I blocked two instances as well, but I can still read their user’s comments and interact with their users outside the instances.
Defederating is just splintering the fediverse. Unless at all avoidable it shouldn’t be done, in fact I chose my instance specifically because it defederates nobody but meta and illegal content such as gore and csam.
I always saw open source as more socialist than specifically communist. Similar to volunteering in your community. Except the community is the whole world, and you don't need to leave your house. Bonus!
To be honest I’d say it’s more similar to anarchism than socialism. Anarchism is voluntarist whilst socialism demands state power first. Both are ideally paths to communism* though so I’m going to say “communism” 'cause it annoys the most people.
communism as in post capitalist, post state utopia, not Stalinism*
.world is basically Reddit 2, but filled with the most radical liberals that specifically want to not be exposed to leftist instances, even db0 has a tenuous relation with them.
.world is constantly on anticommunist witch hunts, and now that Lemmygrad and Hexbear are not visible to them thanks to defederation, .ml is the last large Marxist-aligned instance they can see, so it’s the new boogeyman.
One of them tried to tell me Lemmy is Capitalist because posting is value, lmao
Which part? Posting being value? They tried to use Marx’ Labor Theory of Value to say that because admins aren’t decided democratically, and posting is labor and therefore creates Value, Lemmy is Capitalist.
This is, in fact, ridiculous, because Lemmy has a Use-Value but no Exchange-Value. Posting isn’t labor, and anyone can fork it.
Not exactly. This started yesterday, when a user accused mods on .ml of, “tankie censorship,” (meaning censorship by tankies, not of tankies). He also came with some pretty good receipts that appear to show .ml mods removing criticism of China that, whether you agree with it or not, didn’t seem to violate any rules, and was well within the bounds of what most people would consider civil discourse. He also claims to have received bans from all of the .ml communities he’d ever participated in for pointing this bias out. It’s possible he’s presenting all of this with his own slant, but what he showed seems legit, and I’m not sure he could have provided more evidence without encouraging brigading.
So, saying what’s happing on .world is anti-communist isn’t accurate, as most the criticism has been anti-tankie. However, .world has a much higher level of liberals than most of Lemmy (they created a little echo chamber for themselves on Political Memes), and most of them are incapable or unwilling to understand the difference between a tankies and communists (or tankies and leftists…or tankies and criticism of Biden…). So, it will probably only be a matter of time before this group tries to blur the line between valid criticism of baised moderation from authoritarian apologists to general criticism of leftists.
So, tl;dr: .world isn’t broadly anti-communist, but a large portion of the community is upset about what appears to be biased moderation from tankie .ml mods, and there is a small contingent of .world liberals who I’m sure will take this opportunity to bash anyone to their left.
The problem with this is that “Tankie” is a sliding target, including all Marxists. If you claim to only have a problem with Tankies, not all Marxists, but do your best to attack the majority of Marxists, does that mean the majority of Marxists are Tankies, or that .world has become an anticommunist instance?
I’d say this will only end up creating a multipolar Lemmy. Dessalines has already stated that .ml will not be the first to defed, as they believe in an interconnected Lemmy. However, the target boogyman for .worlders has shifted from Grad, to Hexbear, to now .ml. After .world finally defeds from .ml, will they shift towards db0? Lemm.ee, perhaps? Who knows.
This isn’t the first time this has happened, haha.
Honestly i wouldn’t mind. Users on .world that don’t want a butt load of defederations will probably (and hopefully) move to another instance, whilst the rest of lemmy will be free from all the liberals uncapable of discriminating between communists and tankies
I really only started to see the meaning of tankie start sliding once I got to Lemmy, and it goes in two directions; tankies who swear they aren’t tankies, they just have a lot of feelings about why the Uyghurs aren’t being mistreated, and liberals who literally think tankie is a synonym for leftist. (Seriously, if Lemmy has one unforgivable sin, it’s introducing the, “but her emails,” crowd to the word tankie.) Personally, I don’t care if I get tankies in my feed, but I’m not OK with instances that censor opinions they don’t like (I mean, assuming they’re not bigoted). Those mod logs are pretty damning, I’d like to hear from the .ml mods why they felt those weren’t legitimate discourse.
Honestly, my real takeaway from this whole mess is that it’s really dispelled the myth of federation as a silver bullet for all of social media’s ills. Federation was sold to me as a solution to overly-large internet communities, since federation would stop single communities from becoming too powerful, and communities could simply be defederated if they didn’t get along. Meanwhile, .world is whining that .ml’s communities are too large and important to lose, while .ml is bitching that .world defederating would be egregious and unreasonable. The whole thing feels more like a flame war between some large subreddits than the glorious online utopia that I was told federation would bring us. Actually, it feels a lot like the schism that started when r/antiwork fell apart.
I really only started to see the meaning of tankie start sliding once I got to Lemmy, and it goes in two directions; tankies who swear they aren’t tankies, they just have a lot of feelings about why the Uyghurs aren’t being mistreated, and liberals who literally think tankie is a synonym for leftist.
This was already happening in Reddit roughly 2 years ago.
Wasn’t it .world that defed from db0 already (but later added it back) because of the piracy support? Or maybe that was .ee? When that happened I moved from that instance to here.
This isn’t an attack on your comment, which gave quality information, but I think it’s relevant to the conversations linked in your comment.
Their definition of authoritarian is a contradiction to their actions and used subjectively. “I hate authoritarianism, so we should defederate to keep out the authoritarians.” This statement is supportive of a fundamentally authoritarian action.
This is also why people who use the term “tankies” seriously are themselves deeply unserious. Their understanding of the topic is superficial at best and colored only by Western biases rooted in anti-communist propaganda. The concept of authoritarianism was itself a product of propaganda.
Saying “no” is authoritarian. Holding elections is authoritarian. Authority itself doesn’t matter, what matters is who is in power and how they use their power to influence the world.
Some people recognize and accept this reality and then openly support the power that best aligns with their own benefit.
Anger at tankies is usually just a lack of class consciousness and ignorance based on a term that changes based on who you support and who you do not.
I love being able to block individual people. I’ve seen much less “pro-Biden a vote not for Biden is a vote for Trump” political compass meme shit lately because of that.
Do you think trump is going to accept being declared the loser this time?
Last time some people tried to reverse the election results.
This time they’ve got a plan to harness the administrative states power once they get the presidency. Do you think there hasn’t been an equal amount of planning what to do to stop the steal a second time?
You better block me as well. I don’t know why we should help support Bibi’s favorite candidate by doing exactly what Repubs want and voting for someone who barely broke 1% of the popular vote. I guess people really want more far-right theocratic judges who are blatantly unqualified and corrupt?
I’ll bite. The democrats aren’t listening to us, we have two options: not support them in the election or (it was surprising to see this one end up in the news recently) an appeal to heaven.
If you think trump is too much of a threat, that the president we already had will destroy democracy and there won’t be a 2028 election, that the most important thing is to keep out a candidate who didn’t accept it the last time he was declared the loser of an election and has had four years to prepare for this one as evidenced by project 2024, stop trying to get people to vote for the democrats and start stockpiling ammunition and training to oppose trump supporters in the streets instead.
SCOTUS is right now still somehow deliberating on whether a president is allowed to Night of the Long Knives or not. SCOTUS is already taking away rights from my friends and neighbors. You may be privileged enough to pretend it won’t affect you, I guess.
You think you aren’t being heard now, it isn’t going to improve under a fascist regime that ends voting with their Project 2025 shit. Have you not been paying attention to how Repubs have dealt with protesters? Yeah, becoming an armed insurgent would be the only option for change remaining once it gets to that point.
Wait, the unelected branches of government are restricting rights of minorities and giving power to the executive branch now but we won’t have fascism to fight against until this one guy wins an election?
What happened last time he wasn’t declared the winner of an election? What makes you think that wouldn’t be a concern this time around? How do you square that with the degree of preparation that went into project 2025?
Let me make my thesis crystal clear: if you believe that trump will usher in American fascism and you recognize that he won’t accept the results of the election, you don’t need to get people to vote for Biden to make sure the results of the election aren’t in favor of trump, you need to prepare to physically confront trump supporters in the streets with guns and training to prevent a for real this time coup.
I’m not saying that to get you to go out and buy an ar-15 and a plate carrier (although you should, theyre not getting any cheaper), but to get you to recognize the absurdity of holding all those beliefs together.
I do think that’s a concern this time around. I think the best chance at stopping it is not giving him the legal right to take office, and not giving him a blank check to Long Knife whomever he wants.
Yeah, I guess I see your point also. Assume the country will be attacked either way. Get ready to defend myself if not fight for it. I don’t disagree.
I still remain unconvinced that it is a good move to throw a vote away instead of casting it against Donald.
It’s pretty ahistorical to suggest that the law is a shield against fascism. Even if it weren’t, you came out of the gate saying that the judiciary, the organ of government which interprets the laws, is already fascist.
Rather than accepting the idea that you need to become a new type of fighting true patriot, armed, ready and able to defend the country against its enemies, I had hoped you would see that the government isn’t worth defending and that the future you want can’t be delivered by it no matter which of the two major parties is in power.
If a person accepted that reality it’s no big leap to vote for a party they actually support, considering that party will benefit from event and ballot presence, media appearances, public awareness and funding due directly to the ballots cast for them this go round even if they don’t win.
Of course that means voting for a party, not a person. I have been throwing the party for socialism and liberation out there because it represents my own politics and ideas, but there are others.
It is ahistorical to think a third party will win at all with FPTP. Libertarian Gary Johnson had over three times more votes than Stein in 2016 and he only got a bit past 3%. Neither of them had actual EC votes.
The government is not going to trend towards leftism from voting. It is going to trend towards fascism and authoritarianism because the Repubs reliably come out to vote and will vote for someone who already did a putsch and is openly talking about dictatorship and assassinating political opponents. The Dems are going to trend (further) towards fascism chasing the middle voter if they do get another chance.
Plenty of countries have managed to be authoritarian for decades if not longer, but perhaps the regime would be toppled after a period of war. I don’t think there’s any guarantee an improved government would form out of the rubble from that.
Well, I don’t think a third party will win either to be honest. That’s why I didn’t say it would or that the third party voter should only do so if they can win. I think a strong third party showing like what you described from greens and libertarians from a party that does grassroots organizing like psl would build political power that doesn’t come from the extant local/state bourgeois and national/global bourgeois structures.
That newly built political power would either have its ideas folded into one of the major parties or would fundamentally change the political landscape of the imperial core and become a new major political party or even some unknown third outcome!
I agree with you that voting isn’t gonna turn the government towards leftism of any kind. A leftist third party vote will though tip the scale however imperceptibly towards giving attention, material advantages and public awareness to those ideas.
Now if you’re like me, and you believe that there’s no future with the republicans or democrats, then it’s a no-brainer to vote for a leftist party like psl.
But for a person who sees the ratchet effect in action yet still believes it to be reversible, who believes that the democrats can be good enough to oppose fascism instead of just being its handmaidens, I also believe a third party leftist vote is a no-brainer: it forces the democrats to see your views.
They cant twist your ideas, they can’t say they have a mandate to continue the genocide, they can’t deepfake or dismiss you because you told them in clear, unequivocal terms exactly what votes they could get and in what districts they could win if they had those policies and platforms.
If you don’t care weather we get a new ascendant egalitarian American labor movement that ushers in an end to global neoliberalism or the democrats cynically adopt left wing policies and platforms as long as things get better then a third party vote for the leftist party of your choice is best.
In a world where the Repubs would also vote rationally it might be the right choice. But they’re all in on this guy. They’re all in on whoever it is every election. Fox has brainwashed a huge swath of the country. Even worse, the land area gets the voting power instead of the people. So the Dems are only ever going to actually care about the opinions of a few select districts in a few select states.
And I don’t think you see as much of a difference between Dems and Repubs as I do, so you view Donald as less of a risk than I do. I think it was a huge disaster 2017-2021 and it would be complete and (this time) irreversible disaster 2025 to whenever. I’m still not sure if 2017 was reversible TBH.
I appreciate the dialogue but I think we’ve reached the point where our fundamental beliefs about it are just at odds. Neither of us will convince each other to be all the way on the other’s position. Let’s conclude amicably (I think we were).
(I don’t mean to cut you off, if you had closing thoughts to respond with here, I’ll read them. But I might not follow up.)
You don’t need to respond to anything you don’t want to. I’m not trying to convince you of anything, but I hope that someone who reads our exchange and doesn’t feel comfortable with your outlook yet still wants to vote or can’t let themselves give up in despair will see mine as an alternative.
How do you think the republican base voting rationally would make a leftist third party vote the right choice? I tried to work within your own suppositions that the system is fundamentally broken and that we already have fascism to construct my arguments, I can’t see how the way the conservative base votes plays into that.
If you’re willing to elaborate on the differences between the democrats and republicans you see I’m always interested to hear them. I also think that they’re different but that those differences aren’t significant enough in word or deed to make me consider one over the other.
I’d also be interested in hearing what made trumps first term so disastrous and why you think it might not be undone.
Thought you were blocking us? Keep helping Bibi’s preferred candidate, great work. When the killing accelerates even faster you can pat yourself on the back.
there is a small contingent of .world liberals who I’m sure will take this opportunity to bash anyone to their left.
They are very active though, and they don’t lose their chance to mention and antagonize .ml, which I think is kind of shitty. It happens even in threads where people are commenting about stuff unrelated to politics. lemmy.world is constantly looking for targets to defederate from.
edit: I’d like to mention that I’m not disagreeing with you, I’m just giving my perspective on it.
Oh, yeah, they’re a very loud, obnoxious little group, and removing users that are only interested in picking fights is perfectly valid. But the screenshots from the original post really only seemed to be talking about China’s censorship of Tiananmen Square, and while it’s impossible to say without of context, their tone really didn’t seem to be combative. They just seemed to be expressing opinions about China that didn’t align with the .ml mods’ beliefs, and that’s troubling.
What’s more, Dessalines gave a response that’s kinda telling about all this. A user called .ml out on censorship (in a very respectful tone), and Dessalines basically replied saying asking questions is OK when it’s done in good faith, but a lot of people only ask them to start fights. When the user replied that he was actually talking about people being censored for expressing opinions in good faith that run counter to .ml mods beliefs, Dessalines chose not to reply.
I really seems like .ml wants to remove opinions that run contrary to the mods beliefs about communism. If that is the case, fair enough, but then maybe it does make sense for instances that don’t moderate that way to defederate. I don’t want to worry about policing myself on a bunch of the communities in my feed because I might get banned for my opinion on a news story.
Maybe these fears are unfounded, and this whole thing is being blown out of proportion, but none of the .ml mods have addressed the original post yet. Dessalines has left several comments on the Ask Lemmy post Are You a Tankie, but he’s chosen not to reply to the censorship claim. Given the silence, I have to assume the worst.
He also came with some pretty good receipts that appear to show .ml mods removing criticism of China that, whether you agree with it or not, didn’t seem to violate any rules, and was well within the bounds of what most people would consider civil discourse.
but what he showed seems legit, and I’m not sure he could have provided more evidence without encouraging brigading.
Based on just your link, it just kinda looks like he was posting unsourced gore. That doesn’t feel like civil discourse to me.
I don’t really see any criticism being removed. If Katana314’s message was congruent with reality it would count, but otherwise just making accusations isn’t criticism.
You can’t have it both ways, either you’re against Communism or you aren’t, and blocking every overtly Communist instance makes it obvious.
There’s nothing wrong with running things how you want to, but please keep a consistent line or this drama will just move on to a new target, like dbzer0 after .world finally commits to defederating.
That’s bullshit; being communist isn’t a free pass to be antisocial. History has an example of literal pedophiles organizing under the banner of communism: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_90/The_Greens#:~….
Is that why Hexbear and Lemmygrad were blocked? Hexbear being one of the largest and most active overtly trans-positive instances, and Lemmygrad being the largest explicitly Marxist Instance?
You’re just calling them pedophiles now rather than even entertain the idea that .world just doesn’t like Communists.
You’re treating Communism like liberals treat gay people, fine and supportive until they actually have to see gay people and complain about representation in TV and movies.
Is that why Hexbear and Lemmygrad were blocked? Hexbear being one of the largest and most active overtly trans-positive instances, and Lemmygrad being the largest explicitly Marxist Instance?
Blocked for being antisocial? Yes. If it was about being trans then Blahaj would have been blocked a long time ago.
If anything, I’m complaining about bad communist tropes dominating the media representation, and by that I mean leninists.
It isn’t a trope if the vast majority of Marxists also agree with Lenin worldwide, lmao.
It’s blatantly anticommunism, not just because people are “antisocial.” You’re like a republican with a token gay friend that complains about the LGBTQ community dominating everything these days, lol. It’s sad, just own up to being anticommunist.
When I say antisocial behavior I’m not talking about ideology but actions like banning people posting literal facts about tiananmen or any other historical event. When responses fail to acknowledge actual history that is brought up, then it is likely working from a reactionary framework.
Many other servers asked them to clean house but they refused, hence the defed. Wild how the ones deleting and banning users are the victims of censorship here 🙄
And? I was over at Blahaj when this stuff went down so admittedly things played differently in different parts of the fediverse. Even so, the details of how things escalated should not distract from the behavior that is central to the conflict: ML engaging in censorship motivated by personal ideology instead of making an attempt to be objective.
Come on dude, I just mentioned Blahaj. Don’t pretend only .world has a problem with .ml . And again, the two complaints of censorship raised by the two are not the same. The majority of communities wants moderation to at least attempt to be objective towards history.
There’s a difference between trying to discuss the Tian’anmen massacre and repeating debunked figures like saying 10,000 people were killed, like the BBC did, instead of looking at the vast majority of historical reports that state 300-2000 were killed.
If the discussion is about how a government that massacres its own people and censors even searches of it is bad, then no, rectifying that difference in number doesn’t make the objection go away.
The CPC publicly makes statements about the Tian’anmen massacre, it isn’t as censored as people believe it to be in the west.
You should hate South Korea more than China then, considering more people are estimated by the west to have been slaughtered by the state in Gwangju than in Tian’anmen.
Nobody thinks it was a good thing that people were massacred.
Dude, I literally ran a Firefox plugin at one time that gave me the “Great Firewall of China” experience. But just in case, I went over to Baidu and did a search and here’s the official story you speak of (and the only one told in the search results): www.chinadaily.com.cn/…/content_12898720.htm
The article does not address how many people were killed or even whether violence occurred.
I would call those results to be censorship.
Edit: I don’t like the South Korean state either, but not more or less, just different. I’m not here to say which state is more morally justified than another, even when they’re at end stage capitalism.
Well now that we have established that it is as censored as I believe because I have first hand experience, can we circle back to massacres and censoring said massacres are bad and not what we want in a social media service?
I have found that the results from Baidu do not state whether violence happened or how many were killed in regards to the massacre. The event also seems absent from the Baidu encyclopedia: baike.baidu.com/item/天安门/63708
This is more than a government that doesn’t want to acknowledge any violence on their part, it acts to silence discussion around the event and the .ml community’s actions replicate that effect (which damns any objectivity the mods have).
What separates a Marxist from a tankie? Are Anarchists tankies?
There are no .world communities for Communism, Socialism, or Marxism, so all of the Marxists who wish to contribute must do it on instances like Lemmy.ml, Lemmygrad.ml, Hexbear.net, or dbzer0. Lemmy.world deliberately blocking their users from contributing or even seeing Hexbear or Lemmygrad, and possibly soon even Lemmy.ml, is censorship of Marxists from its own users.
Or is there a secret commie gathering in .world I don’t know about?
There are no .world communities for Communism, Socialism, or Marxism, so all of the Marxists who wish to contribute must do it on instances like Lemmy.ml, Lemmygrad.ml, Hexbear.net, or dbzer0. Lemmy.world deliberately blocking their users from contributing or even seeing Hexbear or Lemmygrad, and possibly soon even Lemmy.ml, is censorship of Marxists from its own users.
Return2ozma got banned on Lemmy.world for criticizing Biden.
Or is there a secret commie gathering in .world I don’t know about?
What’s the metric to determine between authoritarian and non-authoritarian? Marx and Engels both considered themselves Authoritarian.
1 community with 1 post? Certainly seems like a community welcoming to Marxists! Show me a Marxist community on Lemmy.world that actually has participants, lol.
My point is that the biggest and most active communities are on instances either blocked by .world or are threatened to be.
Cool, then Hexbear and Lemmygrad aren’t tankies by your definition. Go over and ask them about that. Oh wait, you can’t.
Communism is a lemmy.ml community, which is my point. Lemmy.world does not host any communist communities despite being the largest instance, and it seems like they may defed from .ml soon, leaving .world with nothing. I’m not sure if you are intentionally not seeing my point, or if you genuinely don’t get it.
196 is an Anarchist community, not a Marxist one. Supporting Marxism can get you banned there.
I didn’t say Ozma was banned from the entirety of .world, just that posting anti-Biden articles will catch you a ban on .world, further proving their general anti-Marxist stance.
To be fair I didn’t see anything all that bad when I skimmed Hexbear but clearly Lemmygrad has no shortage of CCP and Stalin apologists.
Either way, I don’t know why you’re whining at me about a decision I didn’t make or agree to, and has nothing to do with why I don’t approve of tankie rhetoric.
Communism is a lemmy.ml community … Lemmy.world does not host any communist communities
Which is accessible by .world users, so why would we need a new one that isn’t as active? Lemm.ee doesn’t have an ALTA community, do you think they all hate ALTA?
196 is an Anarchist community, not a Marxist one. Supporting Marxism can get you banned there.
We’re a leftist community. I’ve never seen someone get banned for supporting Marxism, and I’d invite you to post to your heart’s content but the crux of your issue seems to be that we have very different definitions of authoritarianism/tankie posting.
Lemmygrad has a fairly standard Marxist stance. What do you count as “apoligism?”
Lemmy.ml hasn’t defederated from ATLA communities. Lemmy.world having no Marxist communities and showing signs of defederating from Lemmy.ml sends a pretty clear anti-Marxist stance, especially when they defederated from Marxist instances already.
196 does not advertise itself as anti-Marxist, but very quickly Marxists get branded “tankies” and get banned. It’s easy to pretend to support Marxists and allow Marxists but then brand them tankies if they take standard Marxist stances. That’s why it’s better to just call 196 an Anarchist instance, if Marx himself would be considered a Tankie.
CCP/Stalin apologists, people who defend the CPP/Stalin.
Lemmy.world having no Marxist communities …
Still has nothing to do with my disapproval of tankie rhetoric. Personally I think everyone should be given a chance to have a civil discussion even if I disagree, but defederation isn’t my decision.
but very quickly Marxists get branded “tankies” and get banned.
I’ve never seen a shred of evidence for this, and I can see the modlog. I’m open to checking it out and advocating change if you actually have something to support this, but frankly, you running defense for Lemmygrad doesn’t exactly lend you any credibility.
If you post Marxist/communist/socialist stuff without a hint of tankie shit or authoritarian apologetics and it gets you banned, you have it here on record that I’ll personally defend you and advocate for change in the community.
What counts as defending? Like, if I say I think it’s cool that China has high speed rail, am I a tankie? That’s why I am asking.
As for 196, I try to avoid discussing anything political there except for the most benign and uncontroversial takes possible, because that’s what that community tends to want.
Where do you draw the line between authoritarian and Marxist? What good Marxist movements have existed that don’t count as authoritarian to you? This all seems vibes-based.
CCP/Stalin apologists, people who defend the CPP/Stalin.
How about “advocacy of strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom”?
If you genuinely still don’t understand what it means to defend authoritarianism, I can’t help you. It doesn’t get more specific than what I’ve already given you.
Otherwise, I’m not going to keep entertaining willful ignorance.
And then this guy took off his denim jacket And his shirt said “Bark At the Moon”
He was a headbanger
He whipped his head around so fast
He gave himself a concussion
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