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Comment on a YT video about Windows on ARM

Installing OS, 10 years ago:

Windows: click a couple of buttons enter username and password

Linux: Terminal hacking, downloading shell scripts from github

Installing OS today:

Linux: click a couple of buttons, enter username and password

Windows: Terminal hacking, downloading shell scripts from github.

Link to video: m.youtube.com/watch?v=qKRmYW1D0S0

SexualPolytope ,
@SexualPolytope@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Idk, installing Linux was pretty easy 10 years ago too. Can’t comment about anything earlier than that though.

DarkThoughts ,

There were installers like today even ~20 years ago.

jherazob ,
@jherazob@fedia.io avatar

I remember the Slackware dozens of floppies install, things have gotten stupidly easy with time

luckystarr ,

That was the case even 19 years back. Ubuntu nailed it back then. You could install it without knowing anything about your computer. Before that, there were text based UIs which required deep understanding and lots of decisions.

zloubida ,
@zloubida@lemmy.world avatar

They are probably like me, thinking that the year 2000 was 10 years ago.

sawdustprophet ,
@sawdustprophet@midwest.social avatar

thinking that the year 2000 was 10 years ago.

This is patently absurd, 10 years ago was 1994.

vaionko ,

Hi everyone, I’m not even a year old!

wanderingmagus ,

Stop, I can feel my bones crumbling to dust!

jaybone ,

And I don’t think GitHub existed in 2000. Probably even git.

Lemjukes ,

Git was released in ‘05, GitHub ‘08.

jollyrogue ,

Yeah, it was SourceForge and SVN.

jaybone ,

Around that time I moved from a company that was using perforce to one using cvs.

RupeThereItIs ,

Even 20 years ago Linux was easier to install then Windows.

Last time I recall Linux being tricky was like late 90s.

Schadrach ,

I once tried to install Linux around then, not long after ISA cards with Plug n Play became a thing.

Linux: So now to even pretend to get the card to work you have to download and run a tool to generate a config file to feed to another tool so you can then install the driver and get basic functionality from the card (which is all that’s available on Linux). Except the first tool doesn’t generate a working config file - it generates a file containing every possible configuration your hardware supports hypothetically having and requires you to find and uncomment the one you want to actually use. Requiring you to manually configure the card and thus kinda defeating the point of Plug n Play (though I guess that configuration was in software, not by setting jumpers).

Same card in Windows at the time: Install card, boot Windows. Card is automatically identified and given a valid configuration, built in drivers provide basic functionality. Can download software from manufacturer for more advanced functionality.

That soured me on Linux for a long time. Might try it again sometime soon just to see what it’s like if nothing else. ProtonDB doesn’t have the most positive things to say about my Steam collection, and I imagine odds are worse for stuff not available on Steam.

mrvictory1 OP ,

ProtonDB doesn’t have the most positive things to say about my Steam collection, and I imagine odds are worse for stuff not available on Steam.

If you ask around or search, you can get answers easily. You can install games from Epic, Ubisoft etc. using other Linux applications.

SeekPie ,

You can install games from Epic, Ubisoft etc. using other Linux applications.

Like Heroic for GOG And Epic, Lutris for everything else.

MalReynolds ,
@MalReynolds@slrpnk.net avatar

Get yourself an old lenovo laptop t440p/t480. You’re missing out.

bitwaba ,

Yeah, all my Linux installs after about 2003 were liveCDs. I used to carry my Gentoo CD around as my diagnostic tools for a while helping people fix their windows machines (or just backing up everything off it before reformatting).

I think Knoppix was the first live CD I used. It was mind blowing. Now you can just carry around a whole personally configured system on a USB stick. Pretty cool.

MalReynolds ,
@MalReynolds@slrpnk.net avatar

And then you find ventoy…

bitwaba ,

I was going to say “but ventoy only mounts the filesystem as readonly. Great for testing new distros, but not great for rolling installs you carry with you to use on different computers”

Then I quickly found www.ventoy.net/en/plugin_persistence.html, so TIL!

MalReynolds ,
@MalReynolds@slrpnk.net avatar

good

MalReynolds ,
@MalReynolds@slrpnk.net avatar

Solid.

barsoap ,

Giving you, if you were lucky, VESA graphics and maybe a mouse pointer because XFree86 somehow insisted on being told whether you have a PS/2 or USB mouse. 3d acceleration only with nvidia and that required manual installation because nvidia never provided anything but blobs. IIRC ATI drivers were simply non-existent (didn’t have an ATI card back then), that only changed when AMD bought them. Whippensnappers won’t believe it but once upon the time, nvidia was actually the company to go with when running linux. And Epic didn’t hate Linux yet, UT2004 came with linux binaries on the dvd.

Damage ,

20 years ago was still xorg.conf times

MalReynolds ,
@MalReynolds@slrpnk.net avatar

Have you met Anaconda?

But no, you’re right…

azvasKvklenko ,

It hasn’t change since mid-2000s if you only talk about the installation process itself. Usually you would have at least some piece of hardware that wouldn’t work out of box and it used to be a lot of work until getting everything in place

TexasDrunk ,

NDISWrapper used to be the worst.

AProfessional ,

Nvidia was also more painful than now.

vaionko ,

Nvidia has become pretty painless in the last few years. A year ago a guy told me to try wayland so I did and surprisingly I’ve been on wayland ever since on my desktop. The last time I don’t think I was even able to see my desktop. Now the 555 drivers made things even better.

stinerman ,
@stinerman@midwest.social avatar

I had forgotten about that and now I am sad that I’ve been reminded.

Damage ,

Winmodems

TexasDrunk , (edited )

Modems in general were either entirely PnP or a total goddamn nightmare in my experience. There was no in between. I remember setting up Slackware in the late 90s and my serial modem just worked. Even after I changed it, it worked. Even after I installed an internal modem, it worked. A few years later I set up Debian or one of its kids (probably knoppix, but I won’t testify to it) and couldn’t get a modem to work to save my life. It was so bad that I just didn’t use any Linux until I got DSL.

Edit: a couple of letters

lauha ,

I installed redhat on my machine in the beginning of 2000’s when I was 13 or so and it was pretty easy. English is not even my first language.

Mango ,

I had a pretty trivial time of it almost 20 years ago.

Fuck I’m old.

FordBeeblebrox ,

I just tried to install Ubuntu on an old MacBook and after booting neither the keyboard nor trackpad work. CMD +R reset the whole thing to a working Mac so I’m still not sold

phoenixz ,

Yeah well I’m not sold on mac hardware, all bets are off as that is designed to be as FU to anything but Apple software. I’d say screw apple but they even managed to fubar screws just to be as consumer unfriendly as possible.

NegativeInf ,

Any time I had to install on my old MacBook pros, I had to refit or refind every install, kajigger all the whatzits, then pray that it would all work. And then be pissed off because I couldn’t access my journalled partition.

In a nutshell, fuck apple for their hardware lockdown.

SSJMarx ,

Linux is still a bit hit and miss, I say that using it from a Thinkpad which I was told would be a 100% sure thing but the trackpoint has never worked and the mouse randomly cuts out until I restart. It’s my daily driver tho cuz I find its brand of BS more tolerable than Windows or Apple’s.

FordBeeblebrox ,

I have a PC that I use for work and a couple old Mac laptops sitting around so I’d like to fool around with Linux, found a hundred articles on how easy it is but every time I try I literally can’t make the machine do anything. Maybe I just need a cheap usb keyboard

SSJMarx ,

One thing I do know is that Mac support is sketchy at the best of times. The comprehensive “Linux on Mac” project IIRC is Asahi Linux, so next time you want to try I would suggest using that distro specifically.

Acters ,

You tried to install a non apple approved software(being the entire OS) on a Mac system. Imagine how hard it is for linux developers to support this blackbox hardware configuration?

Try using something actually easier to program/use for running linux type OSes. I usually will suggest AMD.

If you need a strong graphics card on a laptop, I think those frameworks will be more than capable of offering that kind of flexibility. The potential of packing it up so that if you feel like the power-hungry gpu will take too much battery, then it can be flexible in allowing you to remove the gpu without thinking about a screwdriver

If you need ARM, then you should be mindful of the fact that the arm ecosystem is still quite new for pc users. There are not many software choices, but it does show some promise.

If you think you need Mac hardware, then you don’t need to go around throwing linux on it. MacOS is already Unix like. You are going to live with the fact that no one outside of apple will have proper hardware support at the OS level. Let alone driver support.

FordBeeblebrox ,

Heard and understood. I just wanted to mess around with a laptop collecting dust and Linux is all the rage these days. Don’t particularly need it for any purpose, just tinkering

Acters ,

Well, it seemed from your comment that you just expected this to work without tinkering. However, now you admit to be tinkering? This is a rather confusing story. When I’m tinkering, I’m exploring and expecting to run into edge cases or unsupported environments. Linux may be great, but it’s just a kernel with GNU on top to help build the larger OS. I believe the attitude towards linux is a bit misguided. It is a great tool, and its strengths mainly lie in the freedom of usage that allows for both fine-tune control and automatibility. I say windows and MacOS are strictly non automatable environments unless you venture into the developer side, and that will undoubtedly bring some with it some problems. As such, many systems that require the user to be more hands off and operate with high uptime will use Linux kernels. Being able to automate the process with minimal user input is essential in the performance and reliability of critical systems demand.

Again, I did not wish to be condemning your actions and rather alert you to the differing problems these tools are made to solve. MacOs and thereby its hardware was geared towards being an apple only product that is only properly supported by apple, and the problem it solves is to be a tool for rich and self-conscious individuals.

Windows was created to be a home and enterprise OS that can be used in almost any system that is quite an outstanding feat, but it really is because of the number of developers and users offer the ability for things to work. Mind you that even Windows was not made to be extremely automatable. yet there are tools being created to offer automating tasks, but many are closed source and tied to requiring funding. I even ran into some odd issues every once in a while.

Linux was expressly made to be a minimal system that offered high uptime and high automatibility that was free for everyone to contribute or use. This allows users and admins to set up their systems to be more hands-off when it came to tasks that were extremely time-consuming or continually have to be worked on without deadline while keeping costs low. It is just recently that Linux-based distributions are able to make use of features and packages that are geared to users who need to make manual tasks. Wayland is finally being more stable, driver support from large manufacturers, and even emulation of Windows APIs with use of proton/wine is getting better. Thus offering users the ability to do manual tasks and mix custom made automated scripts/tools into their environments.

Many see the hype and equate it to being able to use Linux systems like they did with the very much well funded manual systems that Windows and MacOS offered. Instead, Linux is just a tool and can be useful when it is needed.

frog_brawler ,

Well that was a mistake. Apple hardware is designed to run Apple OS.

shirro , (edited )

Apple, like Nvidia, are a hostile hardware platform. I have a lot of respect for the ingenuity of the people who invest time and energy to unlock closed hardware. That is the true foundation of the free software movement. I am far less sympathetic to people who support these vendors financially and then complain when things don’t work. Caveat emptor.

mrvictory1 OP ,

Lemme guess: You have a Mac with T2 chip. You need prebuilt ISOs for those Mac models. wiki.t2linux.org

FordBeeblebrox ,

A 2019 with an i5 and a 2012 with an i7. Admittedly I haven’t tinkered much with either but the keyboard and trackpad being completely unresponsive wasn’t a great first foray

mrvictory1 OP ,

The first one has T2. Input devices not working is a known issue, that’s why you need custom ISOs. How was your luck with the 2nd one? Older Macs usually run much better with Linux but WiFi and bootloader installation (efibootmgr specifically) may be janky.

FordBeeblebrox ,

Tbh I haven’t tried the older one, but thank you for the advice on the ISO

I’ve got enough ‘advice’ on this thread that I don’t even know which flavor to try and put on the Mac. As some have said it’s a waste of time even installing Linux on a Unix. I just like projects.

Mio ,

They differ a lot. I don’t understand why Microsoft does not want to improve on this situation. At minimum take all questions at once, or collect answers from existing installation. Maybe have some profiles of answers like wipe disk and privacy mode.

DieserTypMatthias , (edited )
@DieserTypMatthias@lemmy.ml avatar

privacy mode

Keep dreaming. Only Apple has privacy mode they call Lockdown mode. Linux distros have real lockdown mode.

Mio ,

I meant - privacy mode just means answer no tracking on all the questions. Yes, they will still turn those back on when the next Windows update happen, but that is beside the point.

stinerman ,
@stinerman@midwest.social avatar

Microsoft’s most important customers are businesses, who generally don’t deal with this (they have corporate images). Home users also generally don’t deal with this given they buy a computer that has already been configured.

Linux-based systems have always needed to be better because almost no one buys a computer with $DISTRO already installed and configured.

Mio ,

You are right, most don’t need it. Yet they still have the wizard guide, and with several new GUI questions implemented. So they are maintaining the setup wizard - just does not want to improve it. I am sure Microsoft have the money to improve on it and make more users happy(read not leaving Windows).

Windows have come to a point where they don’t need to improve much more. So they only focus on the stuff that might bring in extra money instead(ads and data harvesting). This will be their downfall if it does not align with what the users want. It will be interesting to see how the deal with ARM - problem to bring legacy programs. Yes, one day we will move to ARM on all new computers as they are just so much better. A good opportunity to rethink a lot and for Microsoft lose its big walls around Windows. Easier for competitors to come in.

Linux have also improved due to users always want a friendly GUI. And the users have more power to actually make a difference due to the nature of being open source. Automated installs here are still needed. A few sell OEM with Linux.

Just look at Apple, how big market share they have despite Microsoft have existed for so many years. 15% gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/…/worldwideThe competition have started.

Sabata11792 ,

I don’t understand why Microsoft does not want to improve on this situation.

Windows is the side hustle, They sell server space now.

Mio ,

Right, so lets shutdown Windows as it does not bring in enough money.

I don’t think that would be a good idea, to let it rot away. It is a business that brings in money after all, and it keeps the users using Microsoft office(Office 365) and all their products. They need to keep it alive.

Sabata11792 ,

They can half ass it, stuff it with ads, rake in the income and not lose enough users to worry. They have a monopoly and can just keep milking users.

Mio ,

It works for a while but they will lose market share over time. The home users are mostly not locked in to anything. It is just them that might use their pc at home for work(they should use their work laptop for that). Nowadays most things are webbased. Console/Steamdeck/Android/Chromebooks exists. Microsoft even made Visual Studio Code for any OS so coders can use any OS. The need for Windows is shrinking as people development alternative software for other platforms. It just take time.

Sabata11792 ,

It works for a while but they will lose market share over time.

The average user thinks their having a spell cast on them if they hear Linux. People are too afraid to learn how to use Windows let alone switch.

Mio ,

I think many is afraid. It is unknown OS. No one likes change. Many thinks IT is hard. especially elder people. However:

  • There is to few places to even buy a computer with Linux on it.
  • No ads on TV or similar, nowhere to test, not a single .exe file to run and test it out
  • Works differently - need to relearn.

A kid does not have any problem with the above. This is why Steam Deck is selling. It is just fun to test something new with your friends and see what all the buttons do. Seen as cool. Any guess where this is going when they get adult?

Sabata11792 ,

The people able to figure out Linux will move over, but I don’t think a typical Windows user that goes on Facebook and uses Excel is going to understand or care enough to leave. They are use to being abused.

Mio ,

That will put sticks in the development. A lot of people think like you say.

jj4211 ,

Related, I predict Windows on ARM will be a massive failure, again.

Windows is Windows because a critical mass of their market is terrified of being vaguely incompatible with any software they use today. Wine will never give them enough confidence just like ARM emulation of x86 will never give them confidence.

Extra bizarre, from what I’ve seen the Windows devices vendors are treating the ARM variants as a premium model and charging more for them, despite having no real compelling story for the customers. You can either have an x86 offering that’s from all appearances just as overall capable and absolutely able to run your software today, on an ARM offering that is more expensive and maybe a bit less compatible, with maybe better battery life (either sincerely or at least a belief).

Mac is able to force the issue because the hardware and software all wanted to make ARM happen and forced it, but with Windows on ARM, only Qualcomm really cares, Microsoft and all the device vendors would prefer to hedge their bets, which in this case tie goes to the incumbent.

mrvictory1 OP ,

I believe this time Windows on ARM will make an Intel Arc-like launch. It won’t be a failure but it won’t capture a massive audience either. QC will keep developing chips and some Windows users will be able to daily drive ARM.

ToucheGoodSir , (edited )

I don’t think Microsoft realizes how easily done mass deployment of Linux distros and foss software could be :| especially if done at scale, and having some mid-sized corporations backing it.

HexesofVexes ,

To be entirely unbiased here, this covers user friendly distros that pretty much blow windows away for “default experience”.

Windows has adware and scareware - more so it has config-cluster-fuckification (I believe this is the academic term for it?). This is where windows lost me - when it started bundling basic config options together to force you to relinquish your privacy. Now it’s “edit the registry or gtfo”…

ILikeBoobies ,

I don’t know if the before has ever been true

Got_Bent ,

So how would I go about installing Linux on my shitty $200 refurbished Dell laptop? Would it continue to support my USB docking station with mouse keyboard and three monitors? What about remoting into work?

I don’t otherwise particularly do anything on it. No gaming or any such thing.

deadbeef79000 ,
  1. Download image
  2. Flash to USB
  3. Reboot
  4. Follow instructions
dodos , (edited )

USB docking station should be supported (unless it’s one of those external battery ones that plug into the bottom of the laptop). Remoting into work is fine but depends on the setup. For example, openssh with rdp works fine, can’t vouch for other solutions but I’m sure you could get them working.

Edit: I have been informed that displaylink docks require additional software. I didn’t even know those were a thing so I don’t know how difficult it would be to setup.

bitchkat , (edited )

I had to manually install displaylink on Fedora in order to use my USB-C docking station. Its not included in the fedora repos. But it drives 4x1440p monitors

tom_was_taken ,

That’s true for any OS though. DisplayLink dock is software dock and must have proper drivers installed to work.

bitchkat ,

dodos is claiming that it should be supported by the distro (meaning work out of the box).

tom_was_taken ,

Well, hardware-designed dock station would work, sure. They don’t require any additional software. For example, for M1 MacBook Air with MacOS there are two options: HW docks would work out of the box, no software or tinkering needed. But you are limited with only one external display (Apple decided so). SW docks (DisplayLink) work great and give you multiple displays and stuff, but require drivers. And also after reboot you have to log in before dock can launch its software companion. Also, since it’s software, OS updates can cause malfunction and/or incompatibility. I expect situation be more or less the same with all OS.

dodos ,

I had no clue those were a thing, thanks for letting me know. Does the dock require additional software on windows as well?

Frays6142 ,

Yes. One question, what software does your company use to connect remotely?

Got_Bent ,

All I can see is that it’s an RDP extension

Type: remote desktop connection

Otherwise I didn’t see a product name in properties

Frays6142 ,

Chances are you’d be fine. Either using something like remina, or a web Citrix client.

drathvedro ,

Might have some trouble if it’s a typec dock and the monitors are connected to it. Laptop’s own outputs might also be wonky if there’s a hybrid gpu setup going on, but support for thosr has improved a ton lately. Mkb should work fine out of the box as long as it’s not some unified proprietary bullshit wireless kit with smarfridge integration.

Overall, I would suggest just ripping an image of ubuntu, or pop_os if you got nvidia card, boot off it, just close the installer to try live mode, and see for yourself if everything works. Takes like an hour to do, no installation required. You can even install software, except gpu drivers, as everything would be all wiped on reboot and gpu drivers need reboot, hence popos suggestion as it has them built-in. You can try remmina on it - it’s the most common remote control software, supports both rdp and vnc and a bunch of other obscure protocols.

shirro ,

Windows 9x was extremely time consuming to install with multiple reboots and before that it was all config files. Out of the box 95 couldn’t play media, connect to the internet (thanks trumpet), even access a cd. Normies bought machines pre-installed and got help when the system shit itself. Before there were scripted alternatives large scale Windows deployments were all imaged because of the hours it took to set up a single machine swapping floppies and writing to spinning rust. You had to reboot numerous times and use third party drivers and apps for everything. I recently installed a disposable Win 10 to do a firmware upgrade and Microsoft have come a long way though having to disconnect the Internet to get a local login is very dark.

trolololol ,

Yep I don’t remember ever windows install being fast or smooth. And even Slackware was straightforward 20 year ago

rottingleaf ,

And even Slackware was straightforward 20 year ago

Still is.

WordBox ,

Windows 7 was if you ignore updates. Win10 was even more so in the early builds.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

Before there were scripted alternatives large scale Windows deployments were all imaged because of the hours it took to set up a single machine swapping floppies and writing to spinning rust.

My first internship was patching a ton of Win 98 systems and it involved walking up and down rows of cubicles waiting for the next step of the installation to get done and hit a couple keys

CeeBee_Eh ,

Before there were scripted alternatives large scale Windows deployments were all imaged because of the hours it took to set up a single machine swapping floppies and writing to spinning rust.

With Windows 7 I was making golden images to simplify deployments.

Even now for the one Windows 10 VM I need for a very specific thing, I couldn’t use it without installing AtlasOS (an extensive powershell script to cut out as much of the bloat as possible). Otherwise the system would consistently slow down and stop responding. It was basically unusable (it’s running on Proxmox on a considerably old server).

papafoss ,

I think the biggest shift in the last 20 years is troubleshooting in Linux and windows.

20 years ago and I had to troubleshoot issues and Linux. It genuinely required a good bit of computer knowledge to get it done. Sometimes hours of work to figure out how to get a webcam to work Or how to fix grub?

Windows back then used to be so easy. And there was usually something that would do a quick fix.

However, now and I run across a windows issue. It’s a nightmare. I can put hours of work into trying to fix a driver issue or an issue with updates and get nowhere. Then go to reinstall the operating system and have to spend more hours just to get it installed.

Now in Linux, not only do I rarely have issues but also fixing those issues are pretty straightforward. And if I can’t fix it a reinstall takes minutes and I’m back up and running in no time.

andrewth09 ,

Windows tries to obfuscate any useful information while Linux tries to give logs and man entries to walk the user through what went wrong.

mrvictory1 OP ,

When the BSOD code has nothing to do with your actual problem

andrewth09 ,

Well OBVIOUSLY you need to set HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session\Windows\Microsoft\Win10\MSWindows\CockNBalls\BSODWord to 0 then restart your computer.

phantomwise ,

NOOOOOO please you’re reawakening 20+ years of accumulated Windows trauma 😭 😭 😭

That was so confusing and stressful I don’t know how I --or anyone-- survived the mental strain of regularly troubleshooting Windows

henfredemars ,

Sorry, that was before KB1103995. The new method requires you to check a box in your OneDrive account first before the entry is respected.

reinei ,

Except you already have that update installed, the box is not checked and the entry is still respected, nobody could possibly tell you why because that’s not how it’s supposed to work and everyone else works as stated! And now you have to live with the knowledge that your system is in some unobserved quantum superposition with a critical fix in place which may stop working at any moment for any reason and nobody can tell you how you even managed to get into this situation…

CeeBee_Eh ,

You forgot that you also need to create a new 32bit word entry with the value of the amount of system RAM in gigabytes times 2 divided by the square root of your age times 10.

Otherwise BSODWord won’t be picked up.

Edit: also you need to redo that every time your system updates because Windows update will reset all those values

JustEnoughDucks ,
@JustEnoughDucks@feddit.nl avatar

As a part-time sysadmin at my small company. We use Altium and Solidworks, so we need windows.

I have 10x more windows problems than Linux problems like a bug for around 5 or so people where a windows update would disable the microphone, but every single microphone menu and setting would say it is enabled and working properly. You HAD to use their troubleshooter (which they are now phasing out, wtf) in order for it to be auto fixed. So soon it will probably be replaced by something else that won’t fix the issue.

0 information online about it, 501 different way to fix audio issues, none of which work.

Nowadays the only problems that I have with Linux are slight bugs or user errors, honestly.

rozodru ,
@rozodru@lemmy.ca avatar

This was one of the main reasons I made the switch.

when I was using win10/11 for whatever reason once or twice a year, always at least once a year, the wifi on my laptop would just working. just wouldn’t connect to anything. sometimes doing a hardreset would work but usually it wouldn’t. even uninstalling and reinstalling the drivers did nothing. Nope Windows would just randomly decide that this thing isn’t worth it’s salt and wouldn’t acknowledge it’s existance. the ONLY fix was to reinstall the OS. It’s not like I was doing anything, just Windows deciding it didn’t want to work.

Now on Linux everything just works. if I have issues it’s because of my own doing and they’re easy to work cause I know what I did wrong. worse comes to worse I got auto backups and just need to reinstall which takes all of like 5min. Or I can use it as an excuse to try another distro.

That’s my biggest issue, I’m just so addicted to tweaking the thing now that it’s a dangerous rabbit hole to go down cause I know i’ll end up breaking something. It’s fun though. Just constantly tweaking and adjusting to get it “just right”.

papafoss ,

I went through that phase too! The tweak times are so much fun and breaking things is a good way to learn.

Now I am in a sane defaults mode. Where I just want everything to work well. Pop on so far has been rock solid. I actually have been trying to not touch the terminal to see how that feels as a user. In been 4 months and so far it hasn’t been a problem.

henfredemars ,

May I recommend a versioning or snapshot capable filesystem like BTRFS? It lets me tweak and make mistakes with little fear.

With that said, always keep proper backups of data you care about.

rozodru ,
@rozodru@lemmy.ca avatar

yeah that’s what I’m using. I have snapshots set up to automatically be taken. at first it wasn’t because I didn’t realize the cronie service wasn’t enabled, but now it’s all good. takes a snapshot monthly, 3 times daily, and at boot.

bitwaba ,

Sometimes hours of work to figure out how to get a webcam to work Or how to fix grub?

The easiest solution was just “eh, I probably don’t need that anyways”

papafoss ,

Honestly was my solution for years I never use my webcam 😂

speeding_slug ,

Nowadays I just roll my Linux installation back to before the updates using the BTRFS integration with the package manager. It works great and I’m never at a point where I can’t use my computer because updates broke it. Heck, even if I bork it myself it’s no biggie.

Klaymore ,
@Klaymore@sh.itjust.works avatar

Yeah, same for me with NixOS

Sabata11792 ,

I wanted to dual boot Windows 10 for a few games after I switched off. I can’t get the damn drivers for my hard drives to work. I just gave up on Windows entirely.

henfredemars ,

I feel like Linux respects me as the user. Like, I don’t know why this broke, but you get to keep both pieces. We believe in you. Good luck!

papafoss ,

For me, one of the other annoyances is that both Windows and Mac OS push their services. Windows it’s gotten ridiculous and on Mac. I just don’t have the compatibility with all the stuff I want to use. Like I’m not in the ecosystem so it just doesn’t work for me as an operating system

CeeBee_Eh ,

However, now and I run across a windows issue. It’s a nightmare. I can put hours of work into trying to fix a driver issue or an issue with updates and get nowhere. Then go to reinstall the operating system and have to spend more hours just to get it installed.

Now in Linux, not only do I rarely have issues but also fixing those issues are pretty straightforward. And if I can’t fix it a reinstall takes minutes and I’m back up and running in no time.

THANK YOU. I’m sick of this rhetoric about Linux being hard and user-unfriendly because of the command-line.

Windows is such a pain to use for a while now. You need a ton of post install scripts and hacks to make it even remotely usable and when something goes wrong good luck figuring out what. The event viewer is usually just a bunch of vague COM errors with an ID. Then when you look up that ID it’s barely more useful than “something went wrong”.

pathief ,
@pathief@lemmy.world avatar

Last week I installed Windows 11 on a new laptop that came with FreeDOS installed. It was a really dreadful experience, I never thought it was this bad.

  • The windows 11 installer couldn’t find any hhd partitions or hard drive, while FreeDOS could. After googling for a while I had to download an Intel Rapid Something driver from the manufacturer’s website and load it up when installing windows 11.
  • After installing Windows it required an internet connection to proceed but I assume the wi-fi drivers were not installed. USB tethering didn’t seem to be working either so I had to continue the setup elsewhere, where I had physical access to the router.
  • I had to skip a lot of things throughout the installer, which kinda shocked me. Office 365 and even games, before I even booted the actual OS.
  • Fully updating Windows took 2 hours. Fresh ISO, gigabit Ethernet connection, nvme HDD. Damn.

Pretty miserable experience and completely impossible to an unexperienced user.

mrvictory1 OP ,

For point 1 you need to toggle a setting in UEFI that switches between RAID (Rapid Storage) and AHCI. It sounds like you are in RAID mode and in this mode Linux will be unable to probe the disk. If you toggle the setting then the current Windows install will break but both Windows (clean install) and Linux will be able to see the disk. Point 3, yeah I heard that in reddit too. Enshittification in full swing. Points 2 & 4 no comment lol

pathief ,
@pathief@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks a lot for pointing it out, next time I’ll just look for that toggle and save myself th trouble!

Damage ,

The windows 11 installer couldn’t find any hhd partitions or hard drive, while FreeDOS could. After googling for a while I had to download an Intel Rapid Something driver from the manufacturer’s website and load it up when installing windows 11.

SATA drivers flashbacks

some_guy ,

I recently got back into the homelab hobby. Fucking around with installer drivers has been eye opening. I had to fight to get drives recognized and the same with NICs. Funny, Proxmox worked without any issues (virt-io was leveraged, but the internet made that obvious before I even downloaded the ISO for it).

Jankatarch ,

Even after finally booting the OS you still have to remove mcafee and cortana with revo uninstaller.

phoenixz ,

Actually, after a grueling 7 hours installation journey, i removed those peasky things by tossing an LUKS LVM filesystem over it and using that drive as a secondary drive on my desktop. Fuxk windows

phoenixz ,

My last windows 11 installation took over 7 hours divided over 3 or 4 days, I dont even remember, I’m trying to forget. It was an absolute horror show and indont get why anyone accepts this. If I want to pay and get fucked I’ll find an escort, but I have Linux AND a wife.

superminerJG ,

A Linux user with a relationship?? Impossible! (/s)

semperverus ,
@semperverus@lemmy.world avatar

There are dozens of us!

Redex68 ,

Idk man, I regularly reinstall Windows (cca. every 6 months) to get rid of bloatware and random stuff I installed and don’t need anymore. It’s a pretty smooth experience, though it would be a major pain if your circumstances ever occured.

Nachorella ,

Linux is honestly great, literally the only things holding it back is programs supporting it. I’m painfully tied to a select few windows programs for work and hobbies, Wine tries its best but programs need to start supporting linux before proper adoption can kick off.

Cosmonaut_Collin ,
@Cosmonaut_Collin@lemmy.world avatar

I have found that steam proton is a powerful wine machine. I’m not sure if it would help with any of the programs you are trying to run as it does have limits, but I’ve been shoving a ton of .exe files into steam and they usually work flawlessly.

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

i like using bottles or lutris for that, you can change wine versions and parameters easier in case something doesn’t work.

vaionko ,

Lutris with wine-ge has made some things work for me that didn’t work with plain wine. So definitely worth it to try.

CileTheSane ,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

I’ve been shoving a ton of .exe files into steam

I wasn’t aware that was an option. Do you have a link on how to do that?

DerisionConsulting ,

Steam can’t tell if something is a “game” or not, so you do it the same way as playing a non-steam game through the launcher

pcmag.com/…/how-to-add-non-steam-games-to-your-st…

bleistift2 ,

Thank you very much.

phantomwise ,

Oh I had no idea that was possible, thanks :D

rozodru ,
@rozodru@lemmy.ca avatar

I’m lucky where I’ve been able to get everything I need to work on Linux. It’s also very simple to get the stuff that I thought was windows only to work on Linux. Hell I was able to get some random Elden Ring program needed for a mod to work.

Thankfully though it’s not hard to find what will and won’t work on Linux. I’m on an Arch distro so AUR is a life saver. I’d say 8 or 9 times out of time someone has already got a repo for what I need.

thevoidzero ,

And the reason those few programs don’t support Linux is because they don’t think we have enough users. So don’t hold up on using linux for that reason, it’s just a circle.

stetech ,

*Enough paying users

Nachorella ,

Yes, I’ve been trying hard to squeeze some linux into my life, currently trying to turn an old laptop into a little music machine for jamming with on me midi keyboard. I’ve run across quite a few issues just trying to get specific software working. I did cave at one point and try to use windows 10 but their installation media tool would fail every time I tried and the hardware is too old for windows 11 lol. It also triggered my gag reflex just thinking of all the ads it would feed me and all the bullshit I’d have to disable to make it respect my privacy. A number of different distros just worked flawlessly, though, and if all I needed to do was simple computer things and web I’d be laughing.

thevoidzero ,

Some software is always going to have problems. Specially if the developer never had to work with linux.

In my case I think of it like my choice of Linux like how people may choose other lifestyle. It’s not about having superior experience in everything, but about general good experience and self satisfaction.

Just think of it this way, people in the 90s were happy with the softwares they had, so if some subset of software is not available to me it’s not end of the world. On the flip side many softwares are only available to me because of linux, my favorite is poppler-tools that allow me to merge PDFs and other pdf related tasks that in windows you’d need to pay Adobe for. If you compare and want things that you can’t have it’ll always make you unhappy. Everytime you search for a tool, search in linux websites or search source codes and you’ll be happy to ignore any tools that have a lot of licensing complications and windows only support. Not saying that’s the way to do it, but that’s how I do it.

Nachorella ,

This is where I’m trying to get to. Any new software I try to make sure is foss and linux where possible. It’s just a bit of a pain with music because there’s a lot of tools I’ve bought over the years and would like to continue using.

BearOfaTime ,

Lots more is holding it back, but I’d agree apps is a huge issue.

It’s still has significant issues with being end-user friendly. Needing to use command line for some things that should be a right click, not supporting right click, ambiguities galore when looking at a package repository, odd defaults in packages that one really wouldn’t expect to have to check (e.g. Selecting RDP connection in a Remote app, but it defaults the security to something other than RDP?)

As for apps, there’s problems like Libre Office devs refusing to support tables in the spreadsheet app, saying data management should be done with a database tool. While they’re not wrong, it takes a LOT more effort to setup a DB than to simply click “make table” in excel, which millions of people are familiar with. I create tables every day for run-of-the-mill stuff that simply doesn’t need a database. No one has time for that.

Or you plug in the most prolific wireless mouse on the planet, that’s been around since 2000 (Logitech), and it doesn’t work. Now pick any random piece of hardware and this is the stuff you run into. You go down the rabbit hole of searching for a solution

Or CAD (which falls in your app argument).

Linux is great for many things (things I run, UnRAID, TrueNAS, Proxmox, etc), it’s just not a great general purpose desktop for the average user, yet.

repungnant_canary ,

I create tables every day for run-of-the-mill stuff that simply doesn’t need a database. No one has time for that.

It seems that your issue isn’t the lack of tables in sheets but no easy way to create a simple db.

If we want to break Microsoft’s monopoly than we can’t do that by reimplementing Microsoft’s monopolistic ecosystem. And that creates the opportunity to correct questionable and arbitrary Microsoft decisions.

People are used to MS Office now but so were they used to typewriters a few decades ago. And if we’re changing OSes we don’t have to stick to one office suite.

CafecitoHippo ,

there’s problems like Libre Office

A very simple problem that I absolutely hate in LibreOffice that I can’t find a solution for. When typing in a formula in a spreadsheet and then trying to autocomplete it, you cannot use ‘Tab’. If you want to do a vlookup and start typing “=vloo” and then hit ‘Tab’ it just changes to the next column. Working in Excel at work and then switching to Calc at home is jarring and terrible. That option can’t be changed as far as I know. It’s a complete dealbreaker for me between the two. Luckily I don’t need to do much in my personal life on spreadsheets anymore or need to use my home PC for work like I used to.

Nachorella ,

Yeah, there’s still some other little things, but it’s surprising just how good the out of the box experience is, especially considering how little support the project has had from hardware and software vendors.

Facebones ,

I understand the face value of it, but I really hate the argument of (basically) “Linux isnt going to take off until it just becomes Windows (or emulates it perfectly click for click)”

People always act like Linux is less buttery smooth two click accessible as a style choice, but cranking out a system like that and keeping it up costs money. If Linux dedicated to supporting every dongle on the planet themselves and all this other shiz, they’d have to monetize too.

So much less now needs the terminal. Personally, I don’t get why people don’t mind doing a search to find where windows hid some particular setting 3 submenus deep, but lose their fucking mind over the thought of doing a search to double check which command they need.

Linux doesn’t need to change, people’s priorities need to shift. This obsession with free services and not having to know shit about how shit works is how we got here, and shaking that is the only way out. For example, People will recognize that google is bad but if you point out you can get a domain and basic email hosting for $20/yr or whatever, its always “sucks teeth yeaaaaa but i dont have $20 for something like that and idk how stuff works” conveniently, you dont need to “yeaaaaa, but nooooooo”

Like, I hate cars, but I can’t imagine not knowing how to change a tire or my oil, etc basic stuff, but there are people who call AAA when they get a flat. Its nuts to me.

jjagaimo , (edited )

Linux wont take off until the friction for new users is low enough that the layman can resolve issues without resorting to techniques outside of their understanding and patience. Even as someone who uses linux, there are a ton of things that should have a GUI / just be a context menu entry. If you can get the same amount of work done with a button click rather than typing out a complicated command line string, you might as well use the GUI, right click menu, etc. and make it easier for the typical person. People these days can barely use tablets, and those already dumb things down to icons you tap. Unfortunately, making it accessible to the lowest common denominator is what makes things popular a major factor in making things popular

CeeBee_Eh ,

But you can do nearly everything with the GUI in Linux for a while now. The level of stuff you would need to use the terminal for is the same level on Windows you would need the command-line for, or (SHUDDER) the registry.

In fact, I would argue that doing things in Linux via the GUI is easier than even on Windows. I’m speaking as a user of KDE Plasma. I personally dislike Gnome.

henfredemars ,

In my defense as a AAA member, my super compact in-town car doesn’t have a spare tire, not even a doughnut.

rottingleaf ,

Personally, I don’t get why people don’t mind doing a search to find where windows hid some particular setting 3 submenus deep, but lose their fucking mind over the thought of doing a search to double check which command they need.

Because they like to believe that the former is how smart computer users do things.

phoenixz ,

I’m sorry, your standard 2000 era Logitech mouse doesn’t work? I find that hard to believe. I’ve been using Linux as my only desktop Os and Logitech mice both since 2000, and if there is one thing that always has worked, its the mice.

ECB ,

I know right? I always bought Logitech specifically because it always ‘just worked’ everywhere for me.

MalReynolds ,
@MalReynolds@slrpnk.net avatar

Or you plug in the most prolific wireless mouse on the planet, that’s been around since 2000 (Logitech), and it doesn’t work. Now pick any random piece of hardware and this is the stuff you run into. You go down the rabbit hole of searching for a solution

Have you not heard of logiops? Sure it needs a bit of config file editing, but now I’m a click and a shake away from switching activities, and music and… Honestly, it rocks

Avatar_of_Self ,

Needing to use command line for some things that should be a right click, not supporting right click, ambiguities galore when looking at a package repository, odd defaults in packages that one really wouldn’t expect to have to check (e.g. Selecting RDP connection in a Remote app, but it defaults the security to something other than RDP?)

Sounds like you’re using a GNOME Desktop. You should give KDE Plasma a try instead. KDE Plasma basically gives you a Windows-esq experience without trying to install something like GNOME extensions.

For a regular user there’s not much point into going into the command-line anymore.

there’s problems like Libre Office devs …

Sure but there’s also alternatives. LibreOffice doesn’t try to emulate Microsoft Office and they never really have. They won’t even try to be compatible with MS Office but rather they do with OOXML which Microsoft created for other Office suites to be compatible with it but then just never supported it very well. Some alternatives do however. WPS Office is perhaps the most popular alternative for this that does try to be compatible with MS Office and emulate its feel and features but ONLYOFFICE is also a contender.

debil ,

Needing to use command line for some things that should be a right click

Right click where? All major DE’s/WM’s implement stuff in their own way. The problem here is we don’t (and won’t) have a unified GUI that everyone uses, unlike the other two main OS’s. (Note: I don’t see this as a problem, more as a result of the FLOSS ecosystem being such a rich soil to build stuff on.)

I think Neal Stephenson’s In the Beginning was the Command Line has some valid points even today.

Clbull ,

I mean… aren’t GNOME and KDE the two main GUI’s that you use?

debil ,

There’s also Xfce4, MATE, Cinnamon which come ith man, OS installers as an option. Not to mention various smaller projects (e.g. LXDE or whatever the cool kids use nowadays). Personally I’ve been spoilt by Awesome WM since 2008 and can’t live without terminal/shell.

CeeBee_Eh ,

Needing to use command line for some things that should be a right click, not supporting right click

You can do nearly everything you need to via the GUI on the major distros (the ones that most people would use). There’s plenty of things on Windows you must use the command-line for.

And anytime you need to use the Run dialogue it’s the same argument. It’s the same “issue” of having to type instead of using your mouse.

And if you don’t need to use the command-line on Windows, it’s the registry. The awful, terrible, horrible, disgusting registry.

I’m not actually sure what on earth you mean with “not supporting right click”. Maybe you’re thinking of older Mac versions?

it’s just not a great general purpose desktop for the average user,

It has been for a while now.

Pissio ,

Windows is only for games; macOS and Linux are for work. Once they catch up, it will be bye-bye Windows.

JustARegularNerd ,

Maybe for home users. Working at an MSP, I can’t see small to medium sized businesses making any changes here anytime soon, especially those that use specialized software built only for Windows.

Pissio ,

In my experience, many business applications now run on the Web or are being upgraded to be. Where I work Windows pcs endure only for those who have to do technical drawing, most terminals are Ubuntu updated by ansible scripts and connected to an active directory domain running on Samba. The few PCs with Windows are slowly disappearing as hardware is upgraded ( medium-sized company with about sixty PCs ). There are also a couple of Mac’s used by in-house developers/IT.

A_Random_Idiot ,

been playin games on linux for a long ass time now, with minimal issue.

with almost no issue in the past 3-4 years.

Its caught up.

Pretty much any game short of ones that have invasive kernal DRM run without much issue.

Landless2029 ,

What’s your recommended Linux distro for a Windows gamer to try?

A_Random_Idiot ,

Nobara 39.

Its easy and quick to set up, easy to use, and has a lot of ancillary tools and stuff preinstalled to make getting into the gaming easier.

I’m not gonna say its the second coming of christ, or all sunshine and rainbows, so to be upfront and honest… Dualboot at first, if you can. Its, presumably, your first time using linux, so you will run into more roadblocks to start simply due to lack of knowledge and experience on how to navigate things, but you’ll get your baselines down quick and start getting into the windows-like usability and flow.

Landless2029 ,

This is why I ask around! Haven’t heard that suggestion yet

A_Random_Idiot ,

Nobaras kinda a new distro, but its based on Fedora (the 39 indicates its based on Fedora 39) which is well established.

I’ve been using it, and the previous version of 38, and I’ve had a great experience with it. It also has a very active discord full of kind people willing to help.

nickwitha_k ,

An extra suggestion is to put the /home mountpoint on a separate volume ( if you’re comfortable doing so). This will make reinstalls easy, should you have need

Landless2029 ,

Yeah I do this currently for my Windows installs. But Windows would freak out on OS updates and reinstalls.

I plan to redirect home on my next build

nickwitha_k ,

But Windows would freak out on OS updates and reinstalls

Sheesh! I’m glad I’ve been on Linux so long to have forgotten that. It just doesn’t care, as long as you have it in fstab.

CeeBee_Eh ,

My /home partition is the same one I setup almost 12 years ago. It’s been through multiple versions of Ubuntu, multiple Ubuntu reinstalls, a switch over to EndeavourOS, a reinstall of EndeavourOS, cloned to multiple drives as each one failed or was upgraded to a larger sized drive. But it’s the same exact /home data.

Smokeydope ,
@Smokeydope@lemmy.world avatar

Linux mint is my favorite os been running it many years now no issues with running games. Its a bulletproof OS esecially with timeshift snapshots SteamOS is specifically a gaming os developed by valve for the steam deck but you can installed it on any system . The key is proton which is a windows emulator comparability layer fine tuned by valves Dev team to get most games running on Linux.

snekmuffin ,

far as I’ve heard, Mint can be iffy fhen it comes to games, mostly because they use an outdated kernel. I can also recommend something like Endeavor if the gamer in question has any knack for tech, or Nobara, which is made specifically for gaming by GloriousEgg, maintainer of ProtonGE

Smokeydope ,
@Smokeydope@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks, havent heard of nobara before but it being made by the dude who maintains protob GE is interesting and I will check it out.

A_Random_Idiot ,

Yep, Nobara should be the default choice for a gaming focused distro due to GE, since he knows exactly what hes doing and whats needed.

henfredemars ,

I hear you about the kernel. You can install newer ones or follow the HWE line (as I do) which gives you 6.5 last time I checked.

phantomwise ,

Definitely Nobara, it’s a distro optimized for making games actually work. On other distros I always had some games that wouldn’t run, but never on Nobara. Zero hassle.

BCsven ,

Bazzite made for gaming, and isos tailored to hardware

iopq ,

I play games on Linux

shirro ,

Currently school holidays here and we have multiple machines running Steam on Linux all day playing a good variety of games. None of them are competitive online games that require a rootkit so we are just fortunate I guess that the household prefers co-op lan games, sims etc. I suspect these rootkits are about as effective as anti-doping in sports. Determined cheats still cheat so anyone installing malware to play those sorts of games is probably fooling themselves.

zarkanian ,
@zarkanian@sh.itjust.works avatar

Me too, but I just emulate consoles.

phoenixz ,

Games is mostly (say 90+95%) there. Windows won’t go bye bye though, MS ensured customers by making government’s and companies sign contracts that will be a bitch to get out of. Expect windows to be around for a long time.

Microsoft has shit developers, but they have great marketing people and lawyers, so many lawyers…

henfredemars ,

Don’t need to compete when users don’t have a choice.

It breeds complacency.

phoenixz ,

macOS should also go bye bye especially with the shitty hardware that require you to sign your soul and next born over to apple. Fuck their tactics.

Clbull ,

Games have largely caught up. Fifteen years ago, you couldn’t run anything other than shitty FOSS games or the occasional Platinum AppDB rated game like World of Warcraft on Linux, and even for the latter the install instructions were convoluted. With WoW, you had to manually copy the files from each CD, save them locally and then run the installer because otherwise the installer would shit the bed and fail halfway through Discs 2 or 3.

The final hurdle for gaming on Linux is anti-cheat and that’s going to be a mountain to overcome. Only two solutions (to my knowledge) currently have native Linux support and those are Easy Anti Cheat (EAC) and Valve Anti Cheat (VAC.) You’re not gonna get anything requiring Ring 0 access (like Vanguard) running on Linux anytime soon.

Adanisi ,
@Adanisi@lemmy.zip avatar

You’re not gonna get anything requiring Ring 0 access (like Vanguard) running on Linux anytime soon.

Good. Kernel mode anticheat is fucking malware. Anticheat for a game should never have the same power over the system as a driver, which needs those privileges to communicate with hardware.

CeeBee_Eh ,

Fifteen years ago, you couldn’t run anything other than shitty FOSS games or the occasional Platinum AppDB rated game like World of Warcraft on Linux, and even for the latter the install instructions were convoluted.

Hey! I was playing LOTRO just fine on Linux back then. It actually worked better on Linux than Windows back then too.

umbraroze ,

Back in 1997 I was like “Ooh, Debian is mildly easy to install (compared to Slackware). Just need to engage my brain a few times maybe.”

(The first Slackware guide I read in 1996 had an ominous warning about getting the ModeLines right in XFree86 or the monitor will catch fire. This, fortunately, was a little bit of exaggeration. Over/under refresh frequency protection was already a thing.)

Now? “Oh no I fucked up my password shit and can’t login. I’ll need 5 more minutes to completely reinstall this Raspberry Pi image. I should have engaged my brain!”

Shit, we’ve gotten to the point that your average desk jockey can probably install freaking FreeBSD on the first try. If that’s not a good sign I don’t know what is.

CeeBee_Eh ,

Recently I decided I no longer wanted LUKS encryption on my laptop because I don’t travel anymore. So I followed the steps to do an in-place drive decryption. It worked, but I had missed a step to update the bootloader. So I fired up a live distro, chrooted to the installed system and 2 minutes later I had a working system.

Varven ,
@Varven@lemmy.world avatar

Oh how the turn tables

Murdoc ,

It’s a topsy-turvy world.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

it’s a world-turvy topsy!

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