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Why do people still recommend Thinkpads for Linux when there are Linux-oriented manufacturers now?

I’ve noticed in the Linux community whenever someone asks for a recommendation on a laptop that runs Linux the answer is always “Get a Thinkpad” yet Lenovo doesn’t seem to be a big Linux contributor or ally. There’s also at least six Linux/FOSS-oriented computer manufacturers now:

So what gives? Why the love for a primarily Windows-oriented laptop when there are better alternatives?

CorrodedCranium ,
@CorrodedCranium@leminal.space avatar

It comes down to price. You can buy used ThinkPads and replacement parts for them quite cheap a lot of the time.

It’s been a while since I’ve looked at devices from places like System 76 but if I recall correctly they are still over a thousand dollars when a used ThinkPad T440P for example can be found for around two hundred dollars.

IsoKiero ,

I can confirm this with personal experience. Wife has T470 (if memory serves, something around that) for 100€. That was from previous work and they offered my old laptop for cheap, so it doesn’t really count as average, but not uncommon either at least around here. I got myself T495 a while ago for 299€ from “public” market and have been purchasing couple years old thinkpads for decades now. There’s plenty of those available, they work just fine for the workload we have for laptops (I got a separate desktop for more power hungry applications) and they’ve proven to be pretty reliable workhorses since the brand was owned by IBM.

Framework specially is really interesting approach and I’d love to test to their hardware, but they don’t have Finnish keyboard available just yet and I can get several used thinkpads for the price of one framework, so as long as I’m using my own hard earned money I rather spend it on a known brand where I already know what I’m getting into and spend considerably less money while doing so.

Also with linux thinkpads tend to work just fine or at least there’s documentation and howtos to get everything working.

pufferfischerpulver ,

Where did you find a t495 for that price of you don’t mind me asking?

IsoKiero ,

Taitonetti.fi. Local shop which refurbishes and sells previously leased computers, so their selection varies quite a bit, but I’ve been a happy customer for years and they have frequent sales for the ‘last of the batch’ computers where mine came as well. However I think they don’t ship to outside of Finland, so it might not be so helpful for you.

canis_majoris ,
@canis_majoris@lemmy.ca avatar

Framework laptops are interesting and I hope eventually the modularity allows the components to go down in price. Right now I was looking at a 16 (which all sold out within 3 hours of pre-order launch) but it comes out to easily over 3k CAD for a disassembled kit, skimping on RAM and an SSD.

AlmightySnoo ,
@AlmightySnoo@lemmy.world avatar

yoo I didn’t know about used/refurbished Thinkpads being that cheap, I just checked and indeed you can find a T480 with 16GB of RAM for $248 on Amazon!

WrittenWeird ,

T480 is solid as hell, had one as new in my last job, a bit heavier but very serviceable, would recommend.

promitheas ,
@promitheas@iusearchlinux.fyi avatar

Would also recommend the T480. Got mine for around €280 total (including shipping from ebay).

If youre looking definitely try them out

holland ,

You can find them for much cheaper than that on eBay. I just got my wife a T490 for $125 on eBay. No SSD, but I had one sitting around.

Chinzon ,

I also agree with this sentiment. I got a used t440p which I used for years in school before upgrading to the framework 13. I still love my old thinkpad, but its now my cheap in home media server. I would agree that old thinkpad are easy to find and a cheap (but still very useable and still to some extent repairable) option for work and school.

Siliconic ,

T440P is cheap for a reason. Personally I don’t want a 6 pound laptop with a decade old CPU and a crappy TN screen. Something like a used T480 is reasonable though I guess

Autisticky ,

I use an early 2010s Thinkpad, with Ubuntu, and I can play Minecraft pretty well on it. It’s great. I don’t often carry it places, it’s a desk laptop, but I don’t know of any other affordable laptop that would have such a long useful lifespan. If you know of any, please tell me, but my experiences has made me quite the Lenovo loyalist.

Fuckass ,

Replacement parts are a bitch though. At least when it comes to batteries. The only battery I’ve seen with any positive reviews are Green Cell which is European, so shipping is absurd, and Duracell which no longer produces thinkpad batteries.

eksb ,
@eksb@programming.dev avatar

Because not one of those laptops have a TrackPoint style mouse.

boo ,
@boo@lemmy.one avatar

You mean the nipple mouse?

hypelightfly ,

Could be worse.
https://xkcd.com/243/

AZERTY ,

I always called it a nub. I haven’t used one as an adult but I could definitely see myself calling it the clit mouse.

M0oP0o ,
@M0oP0o@mander.xyz avatar

Nub is correct, also nubs are best laptop mouse once you get to know them.

Edit, Lenovo now calls them “Caps” and that is lame.

TheButtonJustSpins ,

What makes them the best? I find them very difficult to use effectively.

M0oP0o ,
@M0oP0o@mander.xyz avatar

A few benefits:

  • You turn off the touch pad and then you can type without hitting the mouse
  • Using the laptop in awkward positions (crammed behind a rack for example) is a lot easier
  • Minimal movement needed to use, not going to yeet a coffee over.
  • Once you get the hang of them they seem more responsive then a touch pad and a bit more precise (opinion I know)
agent_flounder ,
@agent_flounder@lemmy.one avatar

Same. I had a couple of Thinkpads ages ago and just couldn’t get used to it. Not enough control over acceleration and deceleration. I guess it is nice to not have to relocate your hand from the kbd all the time but…yeah.

Frederic ,

In France I’ve always call this a clit or clito since they exist (80s? 90s?)

lord_ryvan ,

In the Netherlands, I’ve always known it as “the clit”, the same goes for my dad who’s been in the IT since the 80s.

Swedneck ,
@Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

the nippleclit

ikiru ,

I love clits and nipples but I always found that nub so weird.

silvercove ,

Lenovo makes great computers. They have amazing price-to-performance ratios.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@kbin.social avatar

Lenovo makes great computers.

Used to. No longer.

BCsven ,

The only reason I wouldn’t buy Lenovo is they were caught twice shipping laptops with spyware, and on my NAS their upgrade firmware contained google ad banners. While this will not affect a linux reinstall it just shows they are a shit company

silvercove ,

American producers are shipping NSA spyware as well. If this is a concern (which it should be), best thing is to install Linux on it yourself.

BitSound ,

What do you mean by NSA spyware? Anything that I can think of along those lines isn’t really the same thing as what Lenovo did.

silvercove ,

arstechnica.com/…/photos-of-an-nsa-upgrade-factor…

BitSound ,

That’s not really the same thing. It’s also bad, but the producers aren’t shipping that themselves, the NSA modifies it the devices after shipment. That’s in some ways worse, since installing Linux yourself won’t help against adversarial firmware/hardware.

throws_lemy ,
@throws_lemy@lemmy.nz avatar

Those linux laptops are too expensive and they are not available in some countries

Used thinkpad is much cheaper

ikiru ,

Maybe there’s a better place for this question, but how do you make sure a used laptop is safe? Or would removing Windows and installing Linux be enough?

I want to buy a laptop for Linux, and would buy a used one so that it’s cheaper but I have to admit I worry about it. I know one could be worried even about new laptops and what manufacturers could be up to, but I feel like the unknown arbitrariness of a used laptop gets to me.

MotoAsh ,

Reinstalling the OS and formatting all drives is good enough to not walk in to viruses or spyware.

Beyond that, they’d have to install a chip somewhere to snoop on even the basics, like a usb keylogger. Some laptops have rescue partitions and services built in that can hide nasties or vulnerabilities, but those are generally only on enterprise-sourced equipment, and can usually be turned off in the BIOS anyways.

If you want a guarantee, though, you’ll have to take a laptop apart and confirm there’s nothing unexpected. OCD for a normie, but if you’re already paranoid…

ikiru ,

Yeah, I am a bit paranoid because I know enough to be concerned but also lacking enough advanced technical skills to make me feel comfortable which makes me feel more paranoid. Haha

I do mostly worry about keyloggers or something that might hang around despite formatting and new OS. So I might just end up buying new to avoid the unending paranoia that I might project onto a used laptop.

Thanks though!

MotoAsh ,

Could always buy from a trusted source, too. Like family or friends who are the original owners.

danielton ,
@danielton@lemmy.world avatar

You should be fine if you just wipe the drive and install the OS of your choice. That’ll get rid of whatever they may have installed on it.

CorrodedCranium ,
@CorrodedCranium@leminal.space avatar

You could look into a Libreboot compatible model. When buying a used laptop for Linux the big thing you need to be careful of is a locked BIOS

variants ,

this is what Im going through right now haha, found a old laptop in our ewaste but the bios is locked, watching a few videos on how to reset the bios I have to take the whole thing apart to short out two pins, might be worth it but it is definitely a project for another day

CorrodedCranium ,
@CorrodedCranium@leminal.space avatar

Depending on the model you might want to take a look and see if something like coreboot is available while you’re at it

variants ,

Whoa thank you I’ll have to check it out, looks like skulls would work for my w530

ikiru ,

That is a good point about the locked BIOS that I hadn’t thought about. Thanks for bringing that up!

Pantherina ,

No shit installing Linux on an Acer (even though the hardware is horrible and doesnt support Linux) was way easier than on my T495. Also the Uefi is sooo damn slow, I can only imagine what proprietary hell they put in there. The Acer Uefi is 2s, the Thinkpad Uefi is like 7s its crazy, slower than booting Linux.

MagneticFusion ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    derbolle ,

    I’m curious. why?

    severien ,

    The biggest issue was the phone - Librem 5 - many customers waited 4 (or 5?) years and what they got was underwhelming. Purism originally provided “refund anytime” policy, but once customers started using that they lied they didn’t promise that (disproven with wayback machine). The only reliable way to get the money back is to sue them in small court. They also had some other shady stuff.

    MojoMcJojo ,

    I know nothing, why is Purism a scam?

    ProdigalFrog ,

    Louis Rossmann did a video exposing their behavior, which was confirmed by others in the purism subreddit. They’re acting super scummy and shady, leading people on for months and years about getting refunds and then ghosting them.

    Also @ [email protected]

    PipedLinkBot ,

    Here is an alternative Piped link(s): piped.video/watch?v=wKegmu0V75s

    Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.

    I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.

    aport ,

    A few years ago I bought a librem 13 and it was the biggest piece of trash I’ve ever had the displeasure of owning.

    BitSound ,

    Scam is too strong of a word. I’ve got a Librem 5 and it works. I had to wait several years to get it, yeah, but that’s about what I expected. Can’t comment on their laptops, but I still doubt that scam is the right word.

    Swedneck ,
    @Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    sham, maybe? like a scam but it’s just REALLY not worth it and it not actively malicious, just incompetent

    boo ,
    @boo@lemmy.one avatar

    Not sure, but, I dont think any of them are available outside usa/europe. Lenovo has more global coverage

    sic_semper_tyrannis ,

    Framework is available outside of those areas.

    canis_majoris ,
    @canis_majoris@lemmy.ca avatar

    Yeah but it’s incredibly expensive for the gimmick of upgradability down the line. It’s like buying a maxed out MacBook Pro worth of disassembled components, bringing your own RAM, SSD and OS. As much as I want repairable, upgradable, holy grail laptops, they are way to expensive for the average consumer right now. A 16 without RAM/SSD/OS comes out to like 3k CAD – including everything with assembly, it comes out to over 3.5k.

    morhp ,

    It’s available, but they’re still US based and basically importing it, you don’t have proper EU customer protection or EU warranty* for example. I wouldn’t buy it just because of that.

    • They give 2 years of warranty for their EU customers, but not EU wide as would be required if actually selling from the EU. You also have basically no chance to sue then or otherwise demand anything if they for some reason ignore your warranty claim.
    boo ,
    @boo@lemmy.one avatar

    I just checked Japan, India, Brazil. They dont operate there…

    Grant_M ,
    @Grant_M@lemmy.ca avatar

    I’ve never met a Thinkpad that didn’t like Linux :)

    sab ,

    Bought my last few laptops from Tuxedo. Their 13" infinibook can be quite noisy, but I’m having a blast with the Polaris I bought last year.

    TheButtonJustSpins ,

    What do you like about it?

    sab ,

    First off all, the components are selected for the Linux compatibility, so it’s guaranteed to work. But they also provide some tools to make sure you use the preferred drivers, a control center tool for customising fan speeds, etc. All of which are open source. They even provide the windows drivers for all configs for when you want to dusk boot (and those are even fairly up to date).

    20gramsWrench ,

    those manufacturer either have to charge thouthands, or use the cheapest possible hardware they can find to be interesting compared to the thinkpads of old, which can take a punch or two and get replacement parts

    someguy3 ,

    I’ve heard the ThinkPad keyboard is excellent (I welcome input).

    KnightontheSun ,

    The olde ones are nice. Not sure about the newer ones. I have two T420s and one T430. The 420 was the last of the chicklet keys I think. Can swap CPU/RAM as well. The 430 has the CPU soldered in like most major brand laptops do meow.

    ksynwa ,
    @ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Not everyone can spend +1000 dollars on a computer.

    canis_majoris ,
    @canis_majoris@lemmy.ca avatar

    Thinkpads are cheap and accessible basically everywhere. They are business-grade devices and you can get one when folks retire their machines. A lot of places practically give them away. They were just gonna get thrown out anyways.

    Framework is dumb expensive - a 16 even skimping out on RAM/HDDs comes out to over 3k CAD, and that’s for a disassembled kit – pre-built with full components comes out to easily over 3.5k, which is like a MacBook price for the promise of upgradability down the line.

    System76 are rebranded shitty components from Chinese manufacturers. They’re not better for Linux than any general consumer laptop, and their entire position is basically branding regarding freedom and 1776. Ironic that a company so deeply American in nature basically just resells garbage from China.

    fedorafan ,

    One factor is that laptops need a little more design work to build out main boards and validate relative to a desktop, especially considering that you optimizing for power draw and that very little of the design is socketed. As a result a good chunk of the Linux laptop market uses OEM provided designs and then tailors their software around it. Last I heard system76 was working to bring that design work in house.

    TCB13 ,
    @TCB13@lemmy.world avatar

    Why do people recommend Lenovo computers that are poor quality and fail often instead HP EliteBooks that are rock solid and well designed?

    canis_majoris ,
    @canis_majoris@lemmy.ca avatar

    The Lenovos are cheaper to repair by and large, because there’s just so many of them. I find HPs have overheating issues and I steer clear of them as a manufacturer.

    Contend6248 ,

    Our Lenovo notebooks from the last 2 years sound like a jet engine, even when you look at the desktop, known problem, they don’t care or give you a possible solution.

    canis_majoris ,
    @canis_majoris@lemmy.ca avatar

    My Dell does the exact same thing, or at least did when it was running Windows. I would go to put it to sleep and the fan would spin up like a jet engine, as if it was thinking really hard and doing the exact opposite of what I told it to.

    Contend6248 ,

    That’s because of the broken “modern standby”. www.youtube.com/embed/6ykdtaIAG_0

    PipedLinkBot ,

    Here is an alternative Piped link(s): piped.video/embed/6ykdtaIAG_0

    Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.

    I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.

    danielton ,
    @danielton@lemmy.world avatar

    I avoid HP at all costs because they’re a scumbag company that disables their printers if you don’t use them the way they want you to.

    TCB13 ,
    @TCB13@lemmy.world avatar

    Then you should avoid all brands in general because they misbehave in some aspect.

    morhp ,

    Framework has some quality problems, not everyone is a fan of the keyboard, and it’s relatively expensive.

    Tuxedo is quite good, but they often use stock Clevo models and customize them, so they might be cheaper and not that well designed than one by a “proper brand”.

    Not sure about the rest.

    There’s very little alternative if you want a ThinkPad style keyboard and track pad/trackpoint for the price of a used or older ThinkPad.

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