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tombruzzo ,

OK, who did you guys bully over basic tech support questions?

Squizzy ,

I have had to do some work on my windows pc and I hate it. I have been away from desktop for a while now and changed to linux for personal one. At work it is all G suite, which does work to its credit, but the windows OS and microsoft cloud documents suck so much. The look and feel is clunky, so clunky. Constantly refreshing and just being shit.

Never forgive forcing outlook.

tombruzzo ,

I work in email Marketing and Outlook is the worst client, especially desktop. Everything I make has to have accommodations for this shitty inbox

Squizzy ,

As a service outlook (microsoft mail) sucks, as a web service their page sucks andnisnpoorly laid out and optimised and the new desktop client is atrocious.

They made me change from hotmail outlook, created a hotmail folder for under the new outlook and now I dont get notification for that address on the outlook app. If something gets marked as spam that isnt, marking it not spam sends it to the outlook inbox regardless of intended destination. If I reply to a mail it prioritises outlook despite the mail being sent to hotmail. As a result I cant log into shared files that people gave access to one but not the other.

Kuma ,
@Kuma@lemmy.world avatar

And as a user do I hate it too. It is too many times while I edit an email and click delete that is deletes the email instead… It seems if I click a word and get the spell window does the focus always change to the list of emails… And it also force a spell correction if I click space… I didn’t pick one of the options I just want to edit the word myself!!! And if I scrolldown to remove some parts of the email thread or just want to copy a part won’t it let me if I don’t click twice… and it jumps around…damn I hate it so much. Sorry that I replied to you with all these anger. But I really felt it when I saw yours and ops comment. I hope we one day will at least think it is an ok client to work with

tombruzzo ,

All the different versions as well. Outlook web is decent, desktop is terrible. The Mac version seems to be closer to web, some problems I have are fine in one version of outlook and only appear in another. Why can’t the app just be a container for the web version?

TimeSquirrel ,
@TimeSquirrel@kbin.melroy.org avatar

1980s: Hey guise, computers are now cheap and small enough that you can run an entire system and all your programs on your own machine at home instead of having to dial in to the mainframe!

2010s: No, we're putting it all back on the servers, you get a thin client.

AnUnusualRelic ,
@AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world avatar

No technical reason btw, just because “fuck you”.

cakeistheanswer ,
@cakeistheanswer@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

From a macro economic perspective, (and im not advocating for a conspiracy, just aggregate business interest) they’re dropping energy usage so they can pay less on their electricity bills.

So actually a double fu. get less so they can pay less rent, to provide lesser service.

Because rent seeking is the only tech bubble left.

psivchaz ,

In theory I guess it provides better security in some ways, but certainly not all over giving you hardware and a VPN. So there’s that. But yeah, it sucks.

thingsiplay ,

uMatrix prevents me from loading this statcounter website. :-( Can’t lookup how they measure things. In the comments people assume the stats would be counted by just looking up the user agent, which is a naive approach. I don’t think agencies dedicated to stats are doing it this simple. They have way more possibilities to track and to look what browser you are using. The stats are more accurate than you probably think. They do not need to know the exact version of browser you are using, just which type and maybe what operating system you are on.

If a script for Windows does not work on Linux and fails, then they know you are not on Windows in example.

owiseedoubleyou ,
@owiseedoubleyou@lemmy.ml avatar

Why are you still using uMatrix in 2024? Wasn’t it discontinued 3 years ago or smth?

thingsiplay ,

It’s still useful with all its functionality. Even if it does not get updates, it still blocks most stuff and I can enable or block stuff too. Plus the blocklists it uses are still updated, as they act independently from the main addon. There is no better alternative in my opinion. I use uMatrix + uBlock Origin.

lord_ryvan ,

In all seriousness, I think government bodies switching to Linux (UK’s, China’s, some Indian states’) attributes the most to this.

GolfNovemberUniform ,
@GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml avatar

No I think it’s the Steam Deck. It’s like half of all actively used Linux machines.

wischi ,

But that’s not really a Desktop is it? If we’d count mobile device we’d also have to include Android and then the situation would look completely different.

GolfNovemberUniform ,
@GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml avatar

We don’t include Android here. What I meant is that the Steam Deck does count in that statistics.

thingsiplay ,

Steam Deck is a desktop. It is exactly the same PC hardware and software you are using on your desktop PC. It runs the same games and is software compatible. Steam Deck is a desktop PC.

Android has a different hardware (not x86 compatible), is focused on phones, its eco system of software is not compatible with PC and in reverse does not run your PC software. Android based smartphones are not a PC.

flux ,

But how many use it for browsing, which I imagine this data is from?

thingsiplay ,

Valid point to be honest, but the answer is probably more than you think. I have a PC and still used the Steam Deck to browse the web too, not at least to install stuff. Also searching something while playing is useful too. Its made to be docked to bigger screen as well.

While you are probably right, my point was its still a PC, because he compared it to Android. And why this is hugely different. His point was to exclude Steam Deck, because it is not a PC, just like we would exclude Android. This data from the stats probably does not make a difference if its a Steam Deck or not (nor can it tell it? because browsing is the same as on PC, its an Archlinux and regular browser after all). On the other side it can definitely tell if its Android and exclude it.

So regardless if you think people browse the web with Steam Deck or not, this data should not be able to tell the difference between most distributions and Steam Deck, as its just a normal PC with Firefox (or other web browser) from the point of the stats. Just my assumption.

wischi ,

So your definition for “desktop” is if it’s an x86 compatible architecture? Seems pretty random to me. Btw, there are x86 android device. IMO a desktop is something on the top of a desk to do typical “office work”. PCs, Macs, Laptops, etc. but calling a SteamDeck game console “Desktop” is pretty dishonest I think.

thingsiplay ,

PC in the first place means x86 architecture. Desktop is the operating system, here a Linux desktop or Windows OS. Nothing random here. Steam Deck is a Desktop PC with form factor of a handheld. Just like any other Laptop is a Desktop PC in a notebook form factor. It runs, plays and uses the exact same hard and software as a Desktop PC. Calling Steam Deck PC not to be a Desktop is pretty dishonest. Also saying desktop PC must be on a desk for typical office work is random too.

Also this is all about stats. Don’t forget, this is not your opinion or my opinion. I am speaking from the stats perspective, as the Firefox browser (or any other browser) is just a Desktop PC from the perspective of the stats.

If you say I am pretty random and being dishonest, then first, you are discounting others opinions, secondly did not even understand the purpose of my reply. Maybe you should watch out your language next time before responding if you want further discussion. I hope my reply here made it crystal clear.

wischi ,

The names are pretty clear and are about form factor. Desktop is something on top of a desk. Laptop is something on top of your lap. Hand-held is something you hold in your hand.

The steam deck is a hand-held game console - doesn’t matter what OS is it uses. It’s true that most stat tracking sites count it as “desktop” but not because it’s a desktop computer but because the user agent looks similar to desktop user agents.

If I install Android on a tower PC it doesn’t randomly become a smartphone even though all browser trackers would register it as a smartphone.

And Valve using a “typical desktop OS” on their handheld console doesn’t magically turn it into a desktop PC.

thingsiplay ,

The example with Android makes no sense as a argument in our discussion.

The steam deck is a hand-held game console - doesn’t matter what OS is it uses

Wrong. It does matter. Plus, it matters what software and what configuration it uses the moment it gets counted in the stats.

The discussion is not about what you try to tell. You can say what you want, it does not matter that the Steam Deck uses hardware that is PC and software that is a hybrid of Desktop and Gaming operating system. And when going to the web with a web browser, then the Steam Deck is in Desktop mode, and therefore seen as a Desktop PC. Not only act it like that, the functionality is a Desktop PC.

The Steam Deck has two modes if you forgot that, and we are talking about the Desktop PC mode. Which is what the stats are all about.

wischi , (edited )

Desktop is a form factor not “software” and there are microwaves and refrigerators with “PC hardware” (in quotes, because it’s actually a pretty ill-defined term), but they still are not “Desktops” even is you install Fedora on your fridge.

thingsiplay ,

Desktop is a form factor not “software”

That’s just a definition for you. For the stats it does not matter what form factor it has. For the software and operating system, the form factor has 0 meaning. We are talking about stats and I explained it multiple times why the Steam Deck is a desktop PC from the perspective of web browsing stats. But I will end the discussion here now, as we are running in circles. Have a good day.

wischi , (edited )

Ok I also try it one last time 🤣

Go to Google images and search for “Desktop”. What you see is Desktop machines amd setups and how I and the vast majority of the world use the word “Desktop”.

Now search for “handheld game console”. It’s very likely that one of the first few results is literally a SteamDeck.

Now back to the stats. As I already said. StreamDeck will be tracked as a Desktop because stat tracking sites just use Browser User Agents and try to detect what the device actually is, but that’s very hard if not right out impossible because clients (including the StreamDeck) intentionally (for privacy and compatibility reasons) lie about what they are all the time!

If you take your mobile browser and enable “Desktop site” or “Desktop mode” it will lie(!) and make the server think it’s a Desktop - even though it is really not. A smartphone doesn’t magically become a Desktop PC. If I browse the web with my typical mobile browser - every site will track my activity as smartphone. If I switch to Desktop mode most sites will track me as a Linux Desktop Machine. But my device has not changed.

So you are right that the SteamDeck is tracked as a Desktop PC. But that’s because the Server has has either no better category for the device or can’t determine what the device really is because it lies about what it is.

webaim.org/blog/user-agent-string-history/

Stat tracking always had (and will have) two big issues (which can’t really be fixed).

Devices which lie about what they are (see link above) and the problem that they have to come up with some categories and there will always be some devices which fall between the categories (Think fridge, microwaves, sex toys, etc.).

If your StreamDeck is currently actually connected to a monitor a mouse and a keyboard than you are actually using it as a Desktop PC. But if you use it like most people - even though the StreamDeck lies about it - it’s not a Desktop, because the word “Desktop” really is about the form factor - it’s not just my definition. Give any of your friends a piece of paper and a pencil and ask them to draw a Desktop PC - I would actually be amazed if anybody in the world (even you! outside the context of this discussion) would draw anything even remotely resembling a Stream Deck.

👋

aBundleOfFerrets ,

Steam deck has a full fat kde desktop on the stock os

wischi ,

I could install a full fat kde on the entertainment system of a car - still wouldn’t call it a desktop PC.

aBundleOfFerrets ,

You can plug in a keyboard, mouse, and monitor

Bulletdust ,

Connect the Steam Deck to a compatible dock and you can quite easily use it as a desktop. At the end of the day, it’s still an x64 based PC that’s just handheld.

wischi ,

I’m not sure that’s really a good argument. I can connect an android smartphone to a monitor, keyboard and mouse and call it Desktop. It’s also just an arm64 or x64 based PC just handheld.

A Desktop PC IMHO is a device that is used for everyday “office” work and neither android smartphones nor steamdecks are that - but laptops for example are (IMHO)

freebee ,

It is. I use it as such regularly. Keyboard+mouse+screen = browsing firefox as usual. Works quite well. Libreoffice, okular, signal desktop… I’ve used worse computers in recent years, steamdeck desktop experience is better than many 4 to 5 year old cheap laptops with win10 or win11.

leopold ,

Source? Last I checked, the Steam Deck was very much in the minority even when narrowed down to just desktop Linux.

thingsiplay ,

Source is the Steam hardware survey set to show Linux data only. He forgot to mention the statement is only true for Steam Gamers, not for all of Linux desktops outside of Steam.

https://beehaw.org/pictrs/image/f3daa9eb-e755-4787-8a74-1a3b4837cfc6.webp

~ store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/?platform=linux

lord_ryvan ,

I believe the Steam Deck would be a significant portion of the Linux desktops, but Steam’s survey might be a biased source, still

thingsiplay ,

What does significant portion mean to you?

lord_ryvan ,

I can imagine it’d affect statistics enough to see a clear change

GolfNovemberUniform ,
@GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml avatar

I confused it with Steam statistics sorry

thingsiplay ,

Half of the Linux machines on Steam, not the entirety of Linux.

GolfNovemberUniform ,
@GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml avatar

Yes sorry you’re right

FippleStone ,

A very important distinction

lord_ryvan ,

Oh that is a good point, why didn’t I think of that!

737 ,

no, the statistics are based on browser agents, very few steam deck users browse the Internet on their devices. it’s also only half the Linux devices on steam, not of all Linux desktops

istanbullu ,

In Steam maybe. But this is StatCounter which is website visits. I doubt many Deck users are browsing the web.

GolfNovemberUniform ,
@GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml avatar

For some reason I think a lot of them (probably even more than half) have tried browsing the web or at least using the desktop mode at least once.

OsrsNeedsF2P ,

China is actually down. India is high but not increasing

poki ,

Even if that’s the case, it’s telling of Linux’ maturity.

lord_ryvan ,

Oh absolutely!

Vincent ,

I’m fairly sure it’s deficiencies in StatCounter’s measurement that’s accounting for it. Statistical noise, basically.

doodledup ,

It’s probably even higher than that. These stats are mostly based on website visits I believe. And many Linux users are also privacy-minded and might spoof their OS in the browser. I bet a large portion of the Unknown is actually Linux too.

theshatterstone54 ,

And a portion of the “Windows” as well. Hiding in plain sight and all.

Vincent ,

It’s hard to tell, as there are so many things that influence it. A huge factor is selection bias, as only a small number of website embed StatCounter, and that’s very likely to not be a representative sample. I’d bet that the influence of that is magnitudes larger than of user agent spoofing.

Fleppensteijn ,
@Fleppensteijn@feddit.nl avatar

Fwiw, my blog’s statistics say Linux is around 10% and I know a lot of browsers identify themselves as running on Windows when they’re not, so I wonder how it’s measured.

Nomad ,

I would wager thats your audiences bias showing up. If you did that measurement in lemmy users, you would get likely 90% Linux users.

NewNewAccount ,

lol no you wouldn’t. I’d be shocked if Lemmy users were greater than 20% Linux.

olympicyes ,

You can tell from the neofetch screenshots of their VMs showing weird configurations like 3 cores and 6 GB RAM with 15 minutes uptime.

aBundleOfFerrets ,

Weird configs aren’t always a tell, my daily driver is a desktop with a tigerlake mobile engineering sample cpu

SatyrSack ,

Are you implying that the host OS in those situations is not Linux?

olympicyes ,

Yes. Probably VirtualBox.

mindlight ,

What’s is the main topic of your blog?

Fleppensteijn ,
@Fleppensteijn@feddit.nl avatar

Travel, nothing tech related

sep ,

I think the venn diagram overlap of linux users, and users of adblockers or noscript users that block such tracking is quite large. Must impact the statistic significantly.

mrvictory1 ,

I use ad blocker but do not spoof user agent. If uBlpck does not block statcounter, I should be counted.

possiblylinux127 ,

We should do a poll, who uses Linux?

pbjamm ,
@pbjamm@beehaw.org avatar

Seems like you will get a biased sample here…

possiblylinux127 ,

Why?

(Joking)

secret300 ,

I switched to librewolf so I will now show up as windows

lord_ryvan ,

Same, there must be a percent or so of Windows actually being Linux instead.

OsrsNeedsF2P ,

After seeing Garuda Linux set my user agent to Windows, I set my Windows install user agent to Linux.

Seeing Twitch.tv login break after changing my user agent was hilarious

tabular ,
@tabular@lemmy.world avatar

What did it say? Why does it break?

theroff ,

Yeah me too, safety in numbers. Maybe if Linux desktop gets bigger than Windows they’ll swap it around 👨‍💻

archchan ,

I unspoofed Librewolf back to Firefox + Linux. That way I’m not contributing to Chrome and Windows market share and perceived dominance. Plus the more people don’t spoof, the less of a need there will be to actually spoof at all as the Linux market share increases.

possiblylinux127 ,

The problem is that websites sometimes change there behavior.

Sentient_Modem ,

Do you have any examples of this?

pastermil ,

I wonder what’s on the ‘unknown’

ITeeTechMonkey ,
@ITeeTechMonkey@lemmy.world avatar

That 6% attributed to “unknown” is the one true OS, the only one ordained by the Almighty… Temple OS!

bamboo ,

True Temple OS has no networking

xavier666 ,

Based security approach

enleeten ,

It does have networking if you truly believe!

bamboo ,

Heretical, you will burn in hell

independantiste ,
@independantiste@sh.itjust.works avatar

likely content blockers preventing the trackers from working properly and invalid user agents. So i would expect about the same ratio of usage on there as well. Maybe very slightly more Linux since maybe the users are more likely to tinker with their browser configs and install content blockers, but even there Id say its an extremely slim minority of even linux users who do that

StatCounter also sometimes miscounts when new versions of windows or macos come out. At one point (I think at windows 11 release) there was a huge dip in windows 10 users and a huge gain in “unknown” and it was quickly fixed.

alexdeathway , (edited )
@alexdeathway@programming.dev avatar

Bare Metal, they are injecting Ethernet cable directly into their bloodstream.

DmMacniel ,
@DmMacniel@feddit.org avatar

In essence Netrunner then?

bigmclargehuge ,
@bigmclargehuge@lemmy.world avatar

Case on his Ono-Sendai

PoolloverNathan ,

Netcat, mostly

WhiskyTangoFoxtrot ,

Amiga.

CaptDust ,

The combined forces of microsoft reaching new heights of greed and intrusion, plus the massive dev efforts for the best ever GNU Linux and Proton 📈📈📈

Aurenkin ,

Microsoft set themselves up the bomb

xavier666 ,

Microsoft: As long as Adobe, Office, Autodesk are on my side, I have nothing to worry about.

FippleStone ,

All your corporate greed are belong to us

737 ,

dont forget soystemd and wayland

737 ,

i don’t have a strong opinion on systemd, i just heard someone call it soystemd in some YouTube video once and it just stuck in my head for years

wiki_me ,

Whats interesting is that both income , profits and the stock have been growing well for years, maybe they are just monetizing more aggressively because they can’t compete on product quality (unlike other markets that are still evolving, AI and Cloud). not a ton of stuff to improve in operation systems it seems.

CaptDust ,

There are system dialogs that have unused space for ads, still plenty to improve!

In all seriousness, cloud (azure) and office subscriptions blew up and account for like 70% of MS profits. They know the Windows experience is lacking, but when they already capture so much of the market and it’s such a small slice of revenue, they have no incentive to improve.

M500 ,

I use Linux for personal use, and Ive been using windows for work due to necessity.

There is one app I need that does not support Linux. I contacted their support asking about a Linux version and they suggested using waysroid to run the android version of the app.

So, when I have free time I’m working on switching things over.

My main motivation is Microsoft pushing ads everywhere and being aggressive about using online accounts and stuff that like.

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