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mindbleach ,

Bethesda alone.

Wizardry, Ultima… Rogue?

The entire genre of RPGs exists because of geek-ass weirdos on American mainframes in the late 1970s. I got nerd-sniped wondering what could’ve come out on Channel F, and every trope was established and waiting before literally the first proper games console.

HEXN3T ,
@HEXN3T@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Give me like 15 years.

wowwoweowza ,

Wasn’t Gary Gygax American?

Jiggle_Physics ,

Yeah, Americans created the RPG genre…

Wilzax ,

Intentionally lists RPGs not made in US

“Why doesn’t my list have RPGs made in the US?!?”

ಠ_ಠ

Elder scrolls, Fallout, Red Dead Redemption, and Mass Effect would all like a word

sugar_in_your_tea ,

RDR isn’t an RPG, it’s an action-adventure game.

I concur on the rest.

Wilzax ,

I don’t think those genres are mutually exclusive. I haven’t played RDR1 but RDR2 is definitely an Action-Adventure RPG. You level up Arthur’s stats throughout the game and can choose different moral paths that affect the ending. That’s playing a role.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Likewise, I haven’t played RDR2 (started, but never got past the first 30 min or so), but RDR1 is pretty much just GTA in the wild west. You can buy stuff (like GTA), but I don’t recall any stats to speak of, it’s very much an action-adventure. Wikipedia claims RDR2 is an action-adventure, so I assume it’s closer to the Yakuza series in terms of character customization than RPGs, and Yakuza games are very much action-adventure (despite having some skills to level up).

Wilzax ,

I mean, define ‘RPG’ because to me, any time you choose how your character evolves and grows as the game progresses through a story, that’s an RPG.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

There isn’t really a single, clear definition of “RPG” because it’s a really big genre, and a lot of games have taken mechanics that used to define RPGs. What defines it for me is whether the development of the character (in terms of stats, equipment, etc) is central to the gameplay.

For example, Elder Scrolls games are absolutely RPGs. You customize a character, assign stats, collect equipment, and game interactions are largely based on stats. The whole focus of the game is on that character development. JRPGs push the limits of an RPG somewhat because there’s a lot less player interaction with the stat systems (i.e. number just goes up), but the gameplay is highly dependent on those stats. As you stray further, we get into ARPGs, which frequently focus more on the action than the role-playing aspects, but the role-playing aspects are still very central to the game (e.g. Diablo, Ys, etc).

RDR, on the other hand, doesn’t really rely on stats for gameplay. You can completely ignore the stats and enjoy the game. There also aren’t really any meaningful choices when it comes to how the player develops the character. Yeah, I guess if you do bad stuff you’ll get a bounty or whatever, but that’s not what I’m talking about, I’m talking about gating off parts of the games because you chose to pursue one stat over another.

A lot of games borrow elements from RPGs (e.g. looting, skill progression, etc), so there’s no clear definition that clearly delineates which ones are or are not part of a given genre. Genre labels are supposed to be informative about what to expect in a game, and me describing RDR as an action-adventure game is a lot more informative than calling it an RPG.

Wilzax ,

So if your character abilities aren’t just multipliers for a number-based system under the hood, it’s not an RPG?

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Generally speaking, yeah.

There are no hard and fast rules about assigning genres, it’s more about which genre is it closest to. And the closer you get to D&D, the more it resembles an RPG.

Daxtron2 ,

Both RDRs do have stats though

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Stats don’t make a game an RPG tho, but they’re a common element. A game may borrow some aspects of RPGs, but the core of the game needs to be those RPG elements to be an RPG.

RDR is an action-adventure game at its core, any stats or equipment is just tacked on.

Cethin ,

Isn’t RDR exactly as much of an RPG as Mass Effect. Neither gives you any real control over the main story, though I guess Mass Effect makes you think you do better. The sidequests are about as open, and neither do you get to choose your character.

I don’t know if I do actually think RDR is an RPG, but that opinion is shared for Mass Effect, The Witcher, and so many others. They’ve taken the ability point systems from RPGs, but they’re still action adventure games with RPG mechanics.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

I consider Mass Effect and The Witcher to be action RPGs, more similar to games like Ys and Diablo than games like Elder Scrolls or Final Fantasy. The focus of those games are less on your character development (stats and whatnot) and more on the action, but the character development does matter quite a bit.

However, in RDR, your character development really doesn’t matter at all, at least in the first, and I’m guessing the second as well.

So:

  • Mass Effect - ARPG
  • The Witcher - ARPG
  • RDR - action-adventure
Cethin ,

There’s more in 2 than 1 had. Most of it isn’t magic, like The Witcher or Mass Effect (though Dead Eye I’d say is magic), but there are a bunch of skills to learn, as well as weapons to purchase that give essentially Stat upgrades and unlocks to find. They’re more diegetic in RDR2 than the other games listed, but I’d say that’s better for an RPG, not worse.

They are not ARPGs though. That’s Diablo type games. They’re Action Adventure games, with RPG elements. I don’t think they should be classified with the RPGs because they have very different goals, even though they use similar mechanics.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

You don’t need magic or even combat to be an RPG, you need the systems in the games to be dependent on stats/dice rolls. Disco Elysium, for example, is absolutely an RPG, and there’s no magic or combat in that game. One of the big giveaways that a game is an RPG is if there’s something you cannot do because your character’s abilities aren’t high enough. And not a combat move or something, but actual progression in some sense (dialog options, areas you can’t enter, bosses you can’t defeat, etc).

What makes Diablo an ARPG is that it’s an even mix of action and RPG. It’s unfair to call it an RPG because so much of the gameplay depends on player maneuvering, but it’s unfair to call it an action game because there’s so much depth to the skill tree. Other examples of ARPG are:

  • Ys - basically, Zelda with JRPG-style stats
  • Dark Souls - they have their own genre now, but I still think ARPG fits to a T
  • Hogwarts Legacy - lots of RPG elements, but gameplay is action first

I think Diablo might be different enough from core ARPGs to define its own subgenre: loot-based, ARPG dungeon crawler. ARPG is perhaps my favorite genre, but I honestly don’t like Diablo that much. My favorite game series is Ys, which I think strikes a perfect balance between JRPG elements and action; I find myself taking the “if I can’t beat the boss, I need to grind a bit” approach, but I can also just “git gud” if I really don’t want to grind out a couple levels (might double the length of the boss battle though). In a game like FF, you just can’t make up for being under-leveled after a certain point, whereas with action/action-adventure games, levels either don’t exist or don’t really impact progression (they may add cool abilities though).

So that’s why I think RDR isn’t an RPG. Even if it has abilities, they’re really not central to the game in the same way they are with other RPGs. You’re not going to lose a boss battle because you’re low on some stat, nor will you be barred from some content, you’ll just have to do more minigames to increase it. So it’s more of an immersive action-adventure, where you need to interact with the games systems to continue the adventure (eat, wear the right clothes, etc), and if you get it wrong, just sleep and continue. It’s similar to Zelda: Breath of the Wild, which is absolutely an action-adventure game, and it borrows some elements from the survival genre.

Cethin ,

I know you don’t need magic to be an RPG. I was pointing out that the thing that makes the other two different from RDR is that they have magic, and not much else, so RDR is an RPG if they are. You will absolutely lose a boss fight if your stats are too low (and you aren’t skillful enough). Those stats are largely gun/equipment related though, not just stats on a stat block. The stats are largely diegetic, but they still exist.

Every modern game has stats though. They’re in everything, even things like Doom. I’m pretty sure no one is going to argue Doom is an RPG despite this though, so obviously stats are not the thing that makes something and RPG. They’re a key mechanic all RPGs must have, but they are not the factor that makes something and RPG. I would argue being able to define your character is the thing that makes an RPG, but I think the conversation is lost. I don’t think there can be a “proper” definition anymore with how it’s been applied to so many things.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Defining your character also isn’t core, since most JRPGs have a fixed character you play as.

But yeah, it’s a matter of “which genre is this closest to.” RDR is closest to an action-adventure game, because the core gameplay loop is on a mix of action (skill-based gunfights) and adventure (interaction with set pieces). RPGs tend to have a core gameplay loop based on character progression (leveling up, ability unlocks, etc) and interaction is generally with character abilities.

RDR’s abilities generally fall under the survival/management end of things, they’re interesting from an immersion aspect, but you’re not actively looking to level up some ability to solve some problem or unlock some content. In BotW, you also have “levels” (hearts and stamina containers), but increasing those aren’t really necessary to do anything, they just make the game a bit easier. Likewise with equipment, you don’t need the master sword, but it makes things a bit easier if you have it. The OG Zelda was a bit closer to an ARPG with equipment acting as “levels” (blue and later red rings to reduce damage, white and magical sword to increase attack, etc, each of which marks a stage of progression in the game), but it’s still an action-adventure because the game doesn’t revolve around that character progression.

So I’d call RDR2 an action-adventure with survival/RPG mechanics, because the core loop is around action and adventure.

TheKingBombOmbKiller ,

I’m surprised no one has mentioned Mass Effect yet. Or Dragon Age, even with a picture of a cosplay of Morrigan in the OP.

Peddlephile ,

I thought that was the joke.

Soleos ,

BioWare is Canadian

WldFyre ,

If Elden Ring is Canadian, and Witcher is European, then we can just call Bioware games North American

Soleos ,

Of course, it makes perfect sense to describe Canadian products as North American, but OP asks about “American” RPGs. It would be strange to call Canadian Bacon “American food”.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Idk, Canadian Bacon is pretty essential for Hawaiian pizza, and last I checked, that’s absolutely an American thing.

sulgoth ,

Nope, still Canada, made by a Greek though.

angstylittlecatboy ,

Hawaiian Pizza was invented in Canada

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Dang. Well, at least it has an American state in the name. :)

AFC1886VCC ,

I’m gonna defend the Americans on this one.

Fallout and Elder Scrolls are two of the most obvious examples that could have been listed, but they weren’t.

Lets_Eat_Grandma ,

Anything ever made by black isle studios. This includes fallout 1 + 2.

GoodEye8 ,

Last mainline TES game is a decade old and Fallout 4 is also nearing that decade. Meanwhile almost all games in OPs list have released in the last decade.

There’s Obsidian but besides them I really can’t come up with another good RPG studio from the US that has released a game in the last decade.

Zess ,

So what you’re saying is that Bethesda are RPG hipsters.

TonyTonyChopper ,
@TonyTonyChopper@mander.xyz avatar

also GTA

RampantParanoia2365 ,

GTA and RDR have zero decision making or conversation options or skill trees. They are open world action games that took some design notes from open world RPGs. But Rockstar is a British studio anyway.

TonyTonyChopper ,
@TonyTonyChopper@mander.xyz avatar

Yet another English L. USA number 1

tilefan , (edited )
@tilefan@lemm.ee avatar

I seriously can’t tell if that’s cosplay or video game screenshot

criss_cross ,

What game is it supposed to be?

tilefan ,
@tilefan@lemm.ee avatar

no idea I don’t play RPGs

DragonTypeWyvern ,

It’s Morrigan from Dragon Age.

CommanderCloon ,

It’scosplay from dragon age origin

Maggoty ,

Cosplay, from a North American RPG that’s a classic.

RampantParanoia2365 ,

I was going to say Horizon Zero Dawn, but Guerilla Games is Dutch.

phuntis ,

hzd isn’t an rpg

DragonTypeWyvern ,

Other than the fact that it is. It’s even got a skill tree and experience points…

phuntis ,

and you can get all those skills and will before you even finish the game there’s no choices in the story or even how the character fights really everyone playing hzd gets the same experience those are rpg elements but rpg elements doesn’t make a game an rpg it’s just triple a game design needing to have everything from every game ever

DragonTypeWyvern ,

Bro, you’re wrong, cope.

phuntis ,

mirrors edge is in first person and you can shoot a gun is it an fps

DragonTypeWyvern ,

Blocked, stupid or trolling.

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

inb4 someone assumes First Person Shooter is defined specifically as a first person game where you can shoot

The name of the genre is the same as the definition, right?

hitsuji_nanka ,

Doesn’t this definition exclude the first dragon quest from being an RPG?

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

Role playing game just means it’s a game where you play a role, right?

RampantParanoia2365 ,

I’d say it’s just barely an Action RPG. But there’s no real decision making in the story, or even an attempt at it like Mass Effect, The Witcher, Cyberpunk.

Etterra ,

America invented the entire RPG genre - thank you Steve and Dave (d&d). Anon isn’t just wrong; he’s a complete idiot.

qarbone ,

Wants good RPGs

lists Solasta, one of the mid-dest games I’ve have the neutrality of playing

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/2f60a128-2189-40ab-af43-504736481b39.png

FatherGascown ,

Ameritards can’t even handle being a country, let alone creating decent content.

PenisDuckCuck9001 ,

The job market is such that we’re too busy fighting over scrap metal and food like it’s the aftermath of an apocalypse. We don’t time for fucking game development

zalgotext ,

Yeah game devs get paid so little here, they’re the ones fighting the hardest over the scrap metal and food

Louisoix ,

Not including FF, Dragon Quest or Persona in Asian RPGs?? Blasphemy!

Eiri ,

Yeah that’s like saying “great Nintendo games like Splatoon”. I mean i don’t disagree, it’s an imaginative game, but hello? Mario? Zelda?

figjam ,

Grand theft auto.

echodot ,

But Rockstar British. I know it is set in America, but Grand Theft Auto is by a British company.

Sethayy ,

Hey maybe they’re just trying to prove anons point more lmao

figjam ,

Der, I’m dumb. Whoops.

ZeroHora ,
@ZeroHora@lemmy.ml avatar

and GTA is RPG since when?

Kolanaki , (edited )
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Fallout? And I mean the Black Isle fallouts.

Speaking of Black Isle, they also did Planescape and Icewind Dale.

Also: Bioware made Baldur’s Gate 1 and 2; they’re Canadian not European. Unless they just mean 3.

And of course, the OG RPG: D&D. Pretty sure Gygax was American.

bouh ,

After 20 years you need to do something new. You can’t live forverer on your legacy.

Neon ,

Swiss person here:

What’s that supposed to mean?

Are you trying to say we aren’t recognized as the supreme military power in Europe anymore?

Surely you’re joking, right?!

bouh ,

What the fuck does this mean? I mean that no studio in America did anything good in decades. Baldur’s gate 2 was 2003. What good rpg was there? Mass effect was good. 2 and 3 didn’t deliver to legendary grade. Bioware is dead. Blizzard is dead. Bethesda did nothing since skyrim.

Neon ,

you can’t live on your legacy forever

Was what i was playing on

The joke is that we Swiss have a glorious warrior-past that noone remembers anymore.

I was supporting your point with a joke. That’s"the fuck" that it meant

Paradachshund ,

Is Neverwinter nights American? That’s a good one.

ackthxbye ,

NWN1 was from Bioware, NWN2 from Obsidian. Both are from the USA, but NWN2 is nearly 20 years old by now.

Paradachshund ,

I didn’t know we were ignoring old games. It was just what came to mind, sorry.

ackthxbye , (edited )

I don’t know what we are doing, but anon listed recent games ¯_(ツ)_/¯

(Although it irritates me to no end when people say “Baldurs Gate” while talking about BG3)

taladar ,

Still newer than the Infinity Engine games mentioned (BG1 & 2, Icewind Dale and Planescape Torment).

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Bioware is from Canada, not the US.

BigBananaDealer ,
@BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee avatar

dont limit just to black isle fallouts lol

3 new vegas and 4 are great and even 76 is good

phuntis ,

4 is not even remotely great it is genuinely awful 3 is fine I won’t insult 3 I enjoyed it not as much as nv I loved nv but I enjoyed it it was good even but 4 is an insult

BigBananaDealer ,
@BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee avatar

wow really cause i played 4 and it was a great time because the game was great. you must have a very high standard. never played a single game under 90 score on metacritic (but that would mean new vegas is worse than 4)

Zanudous ,

As a big fan of fallout, imo, 4 is the weakest of series. Engine was outdated, repeated time wasting quests, boring world building, the base building was their new exciting feature but it fell kinda flat. Now with 1k+ mods game can actually be a lot fun though. Also 74 didn’t exist.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

4 is a great shooter. It’s a terrible RPG.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Not even in the same league. Barely even RPGs. New Vegas is the best of them and it still pales in comparison.

BigBananaDealer ,
@BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee avatar

didnt know it was contest of most rpg game and not just great game

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Did you not even read the meme? It’s about good RPGs.

BigBananaDealer ,
@BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee avatar

yep i read that. its why i brought up those games. they are good rpgs. did you read the meme? they are not talking about the game with the most rpg elements

Coldgoron ,

There was once a game called Warcraft 3. I refuse to play the remake.

Duamerthrax ,

That’s an RTS anyway.

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