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Achyu , (edited )

The bourgeoisie would only care about profits and maintaining their power, right? They’d be both pro-lgbtqia+ and anti-lgbtqia+ if it gets them profit and/or pushes attention away from their misuse of power.
Like selling Che Geuvara T-shirts, while running propaganda against him.

Or are they seeing transphobia as mainly a reaction of religion/conservativeness? Even then a part of the bourgeoisie would try to profit off them, right?

Or did they respond as such because they saw the bait-y bourgeoisie remark(there are screenshots of the convo in the comments there)?

Would be good to see their response other than a screenshot of one reply in their private message convo.

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Yea I think this is the context of their comment. Compared to buttressing capitalism, being pro or against trans people is neither here nor there as far as major coordinated missions from the bourgeoisie (or mainstream or whatever).

That they seem to think the boxer in question was biological make is likely off/inaccurate AFAICT, but that’s a moving story and not following it closely is no major issue I’d say.

Some insensitive or inappropriate language is going on here maybe. But I wouldn’t know and would want to defer to trans people to guide any understanding.

s08nlql9 ,

I thought you mistyped PixelFed lol. Good to see there’s another Lemmy clone like sublinks.

maegul , (edited )
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

So, for context

  • this is one of admins of lemmy . ml.
  • that instance’s first rule is

No bigotry - including racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, or xenophobia.

  • This person is also one of the core devs of lemmy

Because, IMO, fedi drama is almost always overstated and overblown, especially when it comes to specific “incidents” … because we’ve gotten addicted to social media drama/rage …

I’ll provide my own impression without any context, pretending I’m a relevant moderator

  • it seems they’re challenging the notion that the same culture can be both pro-trans and anti-trans at the same time.
  • which seems superficial unless it’s about a specific incident
  • they seem to think that the Olympic boxer that’s caused an incident is actually born biologically male but is a trans female, and cite as much as proof that the west is not wholly anti-trans
  • my own impression is that the boxer being biologically male is mostly rumour and accusation, but I’m not close to the story at all and can understand how someone not following the olympics would conclude that they’re trans
  • without context I’m not sure I could conclude whether this is transphobic, at all actually.
  • Probably misinformed, but I’m also not informed on that issue, which also seems to be a moving “story”.
  • The user’s perspective is also relevant here, where being a known communist, they’re likely to think anything the west does is flawed and always boils down to class issues.
  • so given that it’s a sensitive topic, I’d follow up the comment with an attempt to frame the sensitivity of the issue and ask the author to consider editing their comment or reconsidering their stance just to flag the potentially transphobic reading of the comment.

Here’s the killer though … this seems like it’s a private message in response to a query … in which case I’m not sure there’s any moderation to be done and without more I’m not convinced this transphobic at all.

spiderman ,

what if they are turned out to be like this or hate other set of people? lemmy by design is defederated so even if the devs are like this, you can just simply call out them or leave their lemmy server lol. i am sure there are trans friendly lemmy servers out here.

as long as lemmy by design is against any sorta people, you dont have to boycott it.

xnx OP ,

Yeah lets ignore the lead dev’s opinions on stuff its not like they have power over the project and a big number of users on their server.

Its ironic you say this from the ani.social instance which was previously defederated from ml because the lead devs thinks all anime is degenerate or something like that and it ruined the anime community since ani.social was still too small

spiderman ,

Like I said in my earlier comment, if the devs make changes in lemmy which by design discriminates any sorta people, yeah people should be leaving lemmy. Twitter just shoves and boosts hate and polically biased posts (favoring elon, the app’s ceo). Lemmy devs are just extreme leftists (tankies in lemmy’s language), but it doesn’t push or shove their views onto me or anyone (in my knowledge).

Its ironic you say this from the ani.social instance which was previously defederated from ml because the lead devs thinks all anime is degenerate or something like that and it ruined the anime community since ani.social was still too small

lemmy.ml defederated with us, it was just one instance. it is unfair and not justified but again, I dont miss much because of that.

southsamurai ,
@southsamurai@sh.itjust.works avatar

The only thing that surprises me is that anyone is surprised.

I don’t intend that to be snarky, more jokey. But, yeah, it’s pretty much common knowledge. Not the first time they’ve expressed unpleasant opinions on the subject, though not quite this bluntly. There was a minor kerfluffle over it not too long after the reddit exodus.

And it isn’t unexpected tbh, that’s a pretty bog standard tankie take, if perhaps a tad more trope filled.

To me, lemmy is kinda like a less important version of the Apollo missions. You put up with someone unpleasant because they can get the job done, until things get to the point it can be done without them. German scientists, tankie devs. Yeah, yeah, von Braun wasn’t a “real” nazi; whatever.

At some point, either lemmy gets enough movement to get a less extreme team on board, it gets forked, or something else comes along.

Quill7513 ,

I’ll keep posting about Sublinks as long as Lemmy is primarily developed by people whom suck

threelonmusketeers ,

How is Sublinks development going? Are they getting close to Lemmy as far as features go? Any stable instances yet?

I’m aware of the project, but haven’t been following it closely the past few months.

Blaze ,

I’m on the Matrix space, things are still moving.

No release date yet, and it’s summer so people are on annual leave

goferking0 ,

One instance admin said they were switching any day now like a month ago 😂.

Blaze ,

Ouch 😅

goferking0 ,

Oh my bad, was just soon

beehaw.org/comment/3690558

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Genuinely curious … what exactly is the problematic stance here?

Is it that they think the boxer was a biological male and therefore trans female? Or is it referring to then as a biological male (which seems justifiably politically incorrect to me but not heinous in trying to point out that the Olympic/bougousie can’t be that transphobic, could honestly be a language problem).

Or is it the statement that the bourgeoisie aren’t trans phobic?

Sekoia , (edited )

“The transgender topic” is already weird as a statement (kinda like “the gay agenda”, it comes off as only considering it as a political statement?), and “clearly promoted by the bourgeoisie” implies it’s bad.

“As far as […] lgbt flags on government buildings”: it’s… not far at all? Again, weird statement.

“Biological male” is both wrong for the boxer (she’s cis) and generally used for transphobia (trans women on HRT aren’t biological males by any reasonable definition). It’s also generally conspiratorial.

Overall it’s not explicitly transphobic or bad to me, but it shows at minimum a very misinformed perspective.

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Overall it’s not explicitly transphobic or bad to me, but it shows at minimum a very misinformed perspective.

Yea that was my impression too. AFAIU, they’re from Europe so there may be a language barrier too. Don’t know how true that is though of course.

Otherwise, tangentially, as far as all the anti-tankie sentiments that may have been prompted by this are concerned, I’ve only seen good culture from them on trans issues.

EDIT: and thanks for the reply!

Arbiter ,

The idea that trans rights are some kind of bourgeoisie conspiracy.

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

I personally don’t see that in the statement … at all actually. Maybe they believe that, I don’t know … but I’d need to seem more to believe that.

From the context of the conversation, it seems more like the inversion, where they doubt that transphobia is some kind of bourgeoisie conspiracy given that trans-rights are getting support from enough parts of mainstream society.

Which IMO, as I’ve said in other comments, is a rather superficial angle on the whole thing (from both sides of the posted conversation). There’s undoubtedly a lot of transphobic energy in mainstream society, with plenty of influential people being shitty people about it, but whether it is or isn’t some conspiracy or whatever doesn’t seem like a helpful way of looking at it.

I could of course be wrong and ignorant. It just seems to me like the malice v incompetence dynamic, where most people can be vile for pretty base reasons, without culture playing a big role but without it having to be some conspiracy or organised effort (as the person nutomic was responding to was claiming)

UraniumBlazer ,

I think they’re responding to a transphobic comment and not being transphobic themselves. I think they’re addressing a far left, socially conservative conspiracy of saying “trans people r bourgeoisie inventions for culture wars to distract the public from the class war”. This person is saying that this is a far fetched idea.

I’m correct in understanding this, right?

Quill7513 ,

Gonna give you the benefit of the doubt. You are not understanding right.

maegul ,
@maegul@lemmy.ml avatar

Still not clear on what’s so trans phobic here (having read the context, which is a private message TBC).

It seems like they’re saying that major coordinated transphobic misinformation from the bourgeoisie is unlikely given that there’s also clear pro-trans activity. Whixh is superficial IMO as such doesn’t discount multiple activities but it certainly isn’t defunct logic I’d say, where there are clearly transphobes and plenty of transphobic energy in mainstream culture at the moment.

But I don’t think they’re saying transphobia isn’t a problem. The first rule of the instance they admin is against transphobia, for example. It seems to me all they’re saying is that it isn’t a major mission by the bourgeoisie. Which compared to making corporations and capitalism happy is maybe not unfair.

vzq , (edited )

Oh man. That’s some sick shit. He had obviously been saving up this speech, waiting for an occasion to spring it on some unsuspecting poster.

UraniumBlazer ,

Oof. Tankies rlly r weird, huh

Beaver ,
@Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

That’s not the situation at all.

MxRemy ,

Woww wtf!!

viking ,
@viking@infosec.pub avatar

Without context, that comment sounds ok to me?

Quill7513 ,

Okay. I’ll remember you’re a transphobe for later.

You know trans people as oppressed people are allies against our oppressors, right? Not granting them personhood benefits the bourgeoisie

j4k3 , (edited )
@j4k3@lemmy.world avatar

You’re not contextualizing reasonably here. The bourgeoisie in his context meaning, the capitalist class. It is just a comment about how it has tilted to fashionable to support LGBT. That is a reasonable statement. Participation in events is a controversial subject for many. Personally I believe gendered sports should be entirely eliminated in favor of singular combined competition of humans, but I’m a giant dude that loves cycling, where a little woman could have a real advantage over someone like me. I find sports that lack such diverse nuance somewhat outdated.

Many might not see the two party system of the USA as what it presents itself as internally. It is not hard to say, this is a one party system that wears two masks and be entirely uninterested in which clown color mask faces forward at the moment.

I see indifference. I see neutrality. I don’t see two sides of a conversation with transparency that qualifies the accusation friend. Feel free to post with transparency though.

jeffw ,
@jeffw@lemmy.world avatar

Maybe you need the context of all the transphobic shit that’s happened lately, like the Olympics boxing stuff? Idk, it still seems transphobic without context. No clue who this guy is though

Quill7513 ,

Lead Lemmy dev

Zaktor ,

The context is they’re positively stating the “men in women’s sports” part of that exchange.

lemmy.ca/comment/10767763

xnx OP ,

Here’s the context lemmy.ca/comment/10767763

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