There have been multiple accounts created with the sole purpose of posting advertisement posts or replies containing unsolicited advertising.

Accounts which solely post advertisements, or persistently post them may be terminated.

Lemmy.ml tankie censorship problem

I feel like we need to talk about Lemmy’s massive tankie censorship problem. A lot of popular lemmy communities are hosted on lemmy.ml. It’s been well known for a while that the admins/mods of that instance have, let’s say, rather extremist and onesided political views. In short, they’re what’s colloquially referred to as tankies. This wouldn’t be much of an issue if they didn’t regularly abuse their admin/mod status to censor and silence people who dissent with their political beliefs and for example, post things critical of China, Russia, the USSR, socialism, …

As an example, there was a thread today about the anniversary of the Tiananmen Massacre. When I was reading it, there were mostly posts critical of China in the thread and some whataboutist/denialist replies critical of the USA and the west. In terms of votes, the posts critical of China were definitely getting the most support.

I posted a comment in this thread linking to “archive.ph/2020.07.12-074312/https://…/AIIbbPs” (WARNING: graphical content), which describes aspects of the atrocities that aren’t widely known even in the West, and supporting evidence. My comment was promptly removed for violating the “Be nice and civil” rule. When I looked back at the thread, I noticed that all posts critical of China had been removed while the whataboutist and denialist comments were left in place.

This is what the modlog of the instance looks like:

https://feddit.nl/pictrs/image/6886b092-43d3-408b-ab57-2fa686f8a6c7.png

Definitely a trend there wouldn’t you say?

When I called them out on their one sided censorship, with a screenshot of the modlog above, I promptly received a community ban on all communities on lemmy.ml that I had ever participated in.

Proof:

https://feddit.nl/pictrs/image/9c52e470-645f-46ba-ac1d-0b7d8be17af3.png

So many of you will now probably think something like: “So what, it’s the fediverse, you can use another instance.”

The problem with this reasoning is that many of the popular communities are actually on lemmy.ml, and they’re not so easy to replace. I mean, in terms of content and engagement lemmy is already a pretty small place as it is. So it’s rather pointless sitting for example in /c/[email protected] where there’s nobody to discuss anything with.

I’m not sure if there’s a solution here, but I’d like to urge people to avoid lemmy.ml hosted communities in favor of communities on more reasonable instances.

TheObviousSolution , (edited )

Happened to me with an even bigger instance because of an asshole admin making shit up. A solution might be to divide up the host of the user comments versus the moderator agents versus receiver of the comments. If your host bans you, that’s it, but if the receiver bans you, that only affects their users, and if a moderator agent group bans you, that only bans you from their distribution group of moderator agents but could be read by other groups.

If a community / group-of-moderator-agents-under-a-community-tag-for-a-particular-host bans you, you’d have to find another groups of moderator agents or accept all that are allowed by your host. Accepting all allowed by your host could only realistically exclude the worst offenders - spammers, doxxers, etc - so you’d really be incentivized to find a better block of moderator agents if you want to avoid certain types of comments. People who want to live in a bubble could live in a bubble but people who want to prioritize the greatest participation would try to find the most lenient host and the most lenient moderation agents, at least to their particular sensitivities.

It would be a truer federated model, but this is not lemmy as it is.

noisefree ,

They will ban you for comments that are so inert it’s impossible to even know what offended them, it’s ridiculous.

HawlSera ,

This shit is what made Reddit unusable, up until it literally became unusable when site-wide bans started getting handed out like candy.

Cryophilia ,

There’s an unforgiving list of keywords that in the right context could mean something objectionable so they just blanket ban anyone who says the word or phrase.

noisefree ,

I got a temporary ban in memes for saying “OpenAI/MS media alliance goes brrrrr” lmao. “Rule 1.” The OP was yet another post about Google’s crappy AI suggestions and I was implying that the mass beating of that dead horse in article after article was because the media is friendlier to OpenAI and MS in the AI space (kinda the same way Apple gets a free pass in the phone space more often than not for shitty practices and taking credit for inventing features that have existed on Android for years prior). But, even in the absence of clarification (since my quip was just observational and not meant to spark conversation lol), I have no clue how that or a lot of the other things they cite “Rule 1” on could possibly be construed as bigoted - there aren’t enough words to work with in the comment I used as an example, just a barely coherent bit of tongue-in-cheekness. Arbitrariness of enforcement is authoritarian af. I messaged a mod to ask what was up since I didn’t realize modlog was a thing at the time and didn’t hear back (which is fine really). It’s more just the finding out when you go to interact and getting a connectivity error and having to sus out what happened that’s annoying and doesn’t feel conducive to a healthy community.

Getting an automated message in your inbox telling you you’re banned, the length of the ban, and why would be a little more user friendly (though public modlogs are nice) if the goals of the developers are trying to build an inclusive platform. A lot of users aren’t necessarily the type to get a persistent itch when something curious happens, so “figure it out yourself” isn’t a great system. But, if what’s going on over at .ml really is indicative of what the goals of the developers are, it does give me pause about Lemmy as a project and where it will go in the future. As has been mentioned elsewhere, the situation is ripe for the project to be compromised if a dev is compromised and people shouldn’t be sleeping on that. Bad actors injecting seemingly inert exploits into code reviewed by others can happen with any software and fly under the radar, even popular and well trusted FOSS (for reference, see “that time the CIA snuck a backdoor into Notepad++”), so it’s alarming if a group of developers appear to be sympathizers for nationstates that are notoriously privacy hostile.

Cryophilia ,

You’re operating under the delusion that they’re moderating in good faith.

noisefree ,

You’re operating under the delusion that they’re moderating in good faith.

Believe it or not, also Rule 1, straight to the banhaus you go. /s

MacNCheezus ,
@MacNCheezus@lemmy.today avatar

I just ended up banning the whole instance from my account so I don’t end up posting there accidentally. If they want an echo chamber, they can have an echo chamber.

Pilferjinx ,

I too have received bans for very innocuously based opinions there. I like having civil discussions that expand my scope but they’re not having any of that. Feels bad man.

rickyrigatoni ,

Have you tried making innocuously cringed opinions instead?

Pilferjinx ,

That’s a bold strategy, wow. Believe it or not, banned.

rickyrigatoni ,

These monsters must be stopped.

Pilferjinx ,

Okay, commisar.

psycho_driver ,

I think any censorship heavy instance doesn’t deserve attention in the fediverse.

lltnskyc ,

So, most of the fediverse instances don’t deserve attention is the fediverse? That’s an interesting take :)

maniel , (edited )

Yeah, I’ve been banned because I said something about Uighur genocide, on the other hand I’m wondering about dessalines’ nationality and his knowledge about communism, it’s easy to be communist of you only touched it online, I for example live in post communist country and remember some of it, old people are talking about it, it wasn’t that good

I’d “understand” if everything would be transparent and they admitted it’s tankie instance and you’re banned because you don’t like China but no, everything is saying their own COC

Do we want someone like that not only administrating the oldest Lemmy instance but developing the whole platform?

SupraMario ,

Everyone who wants communism has never lived it, and those who have don’t want it.

It sounds great on paper, but humans will always have those who wish to hold power.

Wintex ,

I mean… the Soviet Union was illegally dissolved and as far as I remember, the people didn’t want the dissolution to happen. A lot of tomfooleries happened after that and many former soviet countries did lose protections for their least economically safe population.

This is not a defense of the Soviet Union, but dealing with the first statement you wrote.

SupraMario ,

What? No just no…what type of crazy revisionist history is this…the people on the other side of the wall tried to escape constantly, they wanted Western goods and entertainment, the ussr was made up of forcefully captured countries. I don’t know where you got this idea that they liked it, maybe the people in charge did.

Wintex ,

It’s not revisionist what do you mean? It’s a very normal fact that is literally even easy to wiki.

…m.wikipedia.org/…/1991_Soviet_Union_referendum

SupraMario ,

When you live in an authoritarian system, votes mean jack shit. People don’t escape the ussr because they want to keep it together…

Wintex ,

So when faced with facts you just turn away. I mean, I’ll even concede that some of the member states didn’t hold elections and therefore, we have no statistics on them. Not every facet of your enemy can be unreasonably demonized. Not every element of Soviet life was as bad as you think, and it’s totally fair to say that the lower socioeconomic class was harmed by the dissolution.

In the aftermath of the dissolution oligarchs did dismantle a lot of the social security nets that existed and concentrated a lot of wealth.

I can just as easily shit on how Norwegian social security has been harmed by for-profit initiatives on the back of 8 years of Høyre and Frp rule.

maxenmajs ,
@maxenmajs@lemmy.world avatar

For real, I knew people whose family had to stand in lines just to get food or common items. It’s foolish to advocate for abolishing capitalism when states with “real leftism” overwhelmingly do not thrive for long or at all.

MindTraveller ,

I for example live in post communist country

I don’t believe you. I think your country was state capitalist, and would have described itself as economically socialist rather than communist.

I live in an actual post communist country, Australia, and everyone here understands that when capitalism arrived here, it was genocidal and environmentally destructive.

Account5600 ,

In what universe was australia ever a communist country?

Take your medication dude

MindTraveller ,

You misunderstood me. Australia was never a communist country, because it wasn’t yet a county back when it was communist. It was a landmass full of communist tribes

taipan ,
@taipan@lemmy.world avatar

lemmy.ml has changed their level of transparency about their political leanings twice. Look at the history of their home page description:

April 2021 to June 2021:

The flagship instance of lemmy.

June 2021 to November 2022:

A community of leftist privacy and FOSS enthusiasts, run by Lemmy’s developers

November 2022 to now:

A community of privacy and FOSS enthusiasts, run by Lemmy’s developers

FozzyOsbourne ,

it’s easy to be communist of you only touched it online

This is almost certainly the case, these kids read about the ideals of communism and think it sounds great, and they know about how things are in the USA and think that’s bad. Two fair assessments, but they then deduce that the because capitalist America is bad, then Soviet Russia “communist” China must be good, ignoring the fact that every person who survived/escaped those reigemes described them as hell.

Alice ,
@Alice@hilariouschaos.com avatar

github.com/dessalines/essays

Eheran ,

What is this link supposed to tell us?

Alice ,
@Alice@hilariouschaos.com avatar

Maybe open it and read it ?

Eheran ,

I now understand why you get downvoted.

Alice ,
@Alice@hilariouschaos.com avatar

deleted_by_author

    •
    Eheran ,

    But you do “give fluff”, there is a reason you posts random links. You want someone to see something, but do not want to talk about it, which I find odd.

    Alice ,
    @Alice@hilariouschaos.com avatar

    Stop it or I’m gunna spank your little bubble butt

    volodya_ilich ,

    every person who survived/escaped those reigemes described them as hell

    This is patently false, you’re either mistaken or lying. During my PhD in a western European country, I had the pleasure of working with several Chinese students and supervising the thesis of even more of them. Of all the Chinese students, all except one returned to china after finishing their studies because they prefer life in China. I made it a point to ask about their opinions on the government, and the approval rate of their government is so much higher than the approval rates of governments that we have in the west. If you look up any poll on this topic you’ll find the same conclusion: Chinese people are on average happier with their government than westerners are with theirs.

    About the USSR, a majority of the citizens were against the dissolution of the country and a transition to liberalism, so again, you’ve been misled or you’re lying.

    Maalus ,

    First of all, anecdotal evidence. Also survivorship bias. One - the type of person that goes to study abroad is usually wealthy, well off. Two, your family is collateral so you are guaranteed to return. Saying negative shut about the regime can get you in trouble so they’ll sing praises of it - just like in Russia.

    Second, the USSR thing is complete dogshit and you can see why now in Ukraine. People hated the russians. Speaking russian in western Ukraine after it disolved could get you threatened or punched in the face. Same thing with the Baltics. Same thing with Poland.

    volodya_ilich ,

    Dude, you’re absolutely delusional if you think that the conversations I’ve had with Chinese co-workers and FRIENDS (which you clearly never had) are swayed because “their family is collateral”, as if the Chinese government was punishing families for their children emigrating. That’s absolutely insane bullshit on the level of “Chinese hivemind” conspiracy. Regarding your “anecdotal evidence” claim, I beg you to please look at any poll on the topic.

    The way they arrived to western Europe isn’t because of “rich families”, it’s because of an agreement between a university in Western Europe and another university in China where China would pay for their tuition abroad. So much for the fucking oppressive state huh?

    Funny that you bring up Russia, I also happen to know people there who have no problem telling me in private (as Chinese friends could do) that Putin is borderline fascist, oligarchic, kleptocratic scum, and I fully agree with it. Almost as if, in private, people could voice their actual opinions.

    Wow, people hated Russians in post-soviet countries after decades of anti-russian propaganda, what a surprise. I wonder why the Polish were capable of forgiving Germans for the literal Holocaust, but not Russians for a bloodless invasion of their country in the context of a war against Nazis… Almost as if the hatred was manufactured and it was an unjustified form of racism…

    Maalus ,

    Yeah, okay, you are just a tankie. Fucking bloodless invasion my ass you ignorant moron. You are insulting the history of my country and my people. I won’t be wasting any more time on you - you don’t deserve the wear on my phone screen from replying to you.

    volodya_ilich ,

    Bye bye, revisionist racist prick. 3000-7000 deaths is absolutely bloodles for an invasion of half a country, keeping in mind that there were plenty of actual Nazis in Poland. Maybe you’re just one of them, since you condemn so much more a bloodless occupation than fucking Nazism.

    Maalus ,

    Ah yes the tankie forgetting about Katyn in their assessment and countless other massacres. You heard it here folks, the war in Gaza is bloodless. So many nazis we need a denazification special military operation, huh?

    volodya_ilich ,

    Again, the fact that you link the current fascist oligarch Putin, who is a byproduct of the 90s auction of the state to the lowest bidder and western interference in the process, to the USSR which eliminated oligarchs and capitalists like Putin himself, shows that you’re nothing but a racist Polish speaking out of decades of anti-Russian propaganda.

    Have some respect for the 20+ million soviet people who died to eliminate Nazism from your country, although again, I bet you’d be happier in a Nazi Poland as long as Russians were exterminated.

    Maalus ,

    Ah yes, the same 20mln people who looted the country to shit afterwards, killed an uncountable amount of Poles. Good thing that you mention me “equating bad pootin with gud USSR which totally wasn’t a shithole”. Last I checked, the invasion happened in 39’ when Russia literally allied with the Nazis to partition Poland. Last I checked, Katyn happened in 1940 in the “totally not a shithole” USSR. But maybe that’s history revisionism and the soviets were the best people around, totally not an invading nation that killed, raped and looted.

    volodya_ilich ,

    The whole “USSR allied with the Nazis” thing is actually Nazi propaganda and historical evidence proves this repeatedly. Before the war started, Stalin offered to send 1 million soldiers preemptively to England and France, together with artillery and aviation, if they agreed to a mutual defense agreement against Nazis. The soviet union wasn’t prepared industrially for a war like that, again as proven by the 20+ million deaths in the war, and wanted to postpone it as much as possible, and join the allies as soon as it started, but France and England were too eager to see communism destroyed and didn’t care about mutual defense, especially England. The fact that the Soviet Union later invaded some countries to the east of Germany was in preparation for war, to prevent Nazism from rising in these places and the military there allying with Hitler, as Finland did for example (there were plenty of Finns sieging Leningrad).

    Equating Nazism and the USSR is a revisionist, fascist talking point based on purposeful misinterpretation of some data like the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, and outright omission of other data such as the attempted Collective Security policy attempted by the USSR since the early 30s to protect Europe from fascism, that England and France conveniently didn’t agree to since nazis and fascists were enemies of communism as they were.

    Maalus ,

    Oh fuck off with your revisioning of history.

    Alice ,
    @Alice@hilariouschaos.com avatar

    github.com/dessalines/essays

    barsoap ,

    on the other hand I’m wondering about dessalines’ nationality

    I’m guessing US, on account of the whole “America Bad” thing. Can also be seen with European tankies but they’re not nearly as much USSR stans and way more likely to identify as Trots. South American is another option but then I’d expect at least some of his output to be Spanish/Portuguese. It all does have that US exceptionalism turned around “The US is the source of all evil, ever” kind of vibe you generally only see from Americans as the rest of the world plain and simply isn’t seeped in US jingoism and self-importance.

    …also I didn’t really invest much time in this at all, if someone else did, please enlighten us.

    ArmokGoB ,

    LW needs to defederate from LML so that they aren’t being spoonfed users from the biggest instance.

    MindTraveller ,

    Yes, and all the smaller instances should defed from world and ml too

    ArmokGoB ,

    World is run like Reddit was 5 years ago. LML is actually a shithole run by tankies. Two different levels of shitty.

    MindTraveller ,

    You know the admins of both are friends, right?

    UnHidden ,

    whats LW?

    mugthol ,

    Lemmy.world

    NikkiDimes ,

    Why, it’s where you are!

    archpope ,

    Hmmm… I just got here so I haven’t seen it in action, but if true, far left mods abusing their power to censor and ban people they disagree with? Where have I Redd it before?

    Churbleyimyam ,

    If their community mods ban enough people, won’t they eventually no longer have the biggest communities?

    laughterlaughter ,

    In theory, yes. In practice, not necessarily.

    Churbleyimyam ,

    Pourquoi?

    laughterlaughter , (edited )

    No, come to think of it, you’re right. I was thinking of communities that ban people in droves, but they still have a lot of members.

    But the keyword in your comment is “enough.” So, yup, again in theory, if they ban 99% of the whole Fediverse, they won’t be the biggest community in it.

    Audacious ,

    Sad to see. Feels like Lemmy has no bright future with people in charge of it thinking russia’s and China’s government is good and ban difference of thoughts, opinions, and beliefs.

    laughterlaughter ,

    Are you saying that all popular instances are run by “tankies”?

    lltnskyc ,

    ban difference of thoughts, opinions, and beliefs

    That’s exactly what lemmy.world is doing.

    spez_ ,

    Don’t go on the instance

    Roflmasterbigpimp , (edited )
    @Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world avatar

    Is there a way to message instance owners/admins? I would propose that lemmy.world defederates from lemmy.ml asap. Post

    papertowels ,

    Probably start with buying them dinner first

    Roflmasterbigpimp ,
    @Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world avatar

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d9182576-8f9f-47d7-a9b2-7096c5511b84.png

    laughterlaughter ,

    hehe well, you can always edit your comment!

    Roflmasterbigpimp ,
    @Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s funnier this way :P

    rufus ,

    Probably !support

    Go to lemmy.world and have a look at the Sidebar. That’s where instances publish info like that. And they list several methods to contact them, there.

    Roflmasterbigpimp ,
    @Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world avatar

    Thank you! I just did and already posted there :D

    threelonmusketeers ,

    Is there a way to massage instance owners/admins?

    I think you’d have to meet up with them IRL for that…

    discount_door_garlic ,

    The confusion about how the protocol works for new users is real, and suggestions that ‘any instance is fine’, although true in a technical sense - is a little misleading, firstly when you’re not used to how fediverse stuff works, but also when bizarre rules about no swearing or NSFW content are applied at an admin level. I first started on .ml, but moved here after some deliberation because people can tailor their feed and content through joining communities, not having their instance hyper-politicised by ban-happy tankies. (I’m very progressive myself, before it’s claimed otherwise)

    I think the blurring of the lines between developers of the Lemmy open source project, and admins of the lemmy.ml instance is a self-sabotaging and tone-deaf reflection on the site, and hurts chances of wider adoption. Of course admins are entitled to their own opinions, but the entire purpose of communities like this is to try and decentralise the problematic censorship which has ruined reddit (among other issues). Having faith in the users and mods to consider content and conduct with as impartial as possible development and administration is vital to the site having any chance of being transparent and worth-contributing to.

    I don’t want to see the whole concept of Lemmy written off by outsiders because their first experiences of the site are of the rabid circlejerk messageboards instead of a new and exciting format for online content with greater interoperability and user control. To this effect, I’m still on the fence about defederating with those communities at a user level, but I think that I’m going to make a more concerted effort to make content and foster the communities I want here, so that .ml fades into insignificance - I don’t want to feed into their narratives of persecution.

    I wanna call on @dessalines, and @Nutomic, among others, with the greatest respect for their views and contributions to the project, to put the future of the platform ahead of turning it into an echo chamber - either by relinquishing themselves from one or the other (admin/dev), or by the admins collectively creating a clear policy about politicised banning to acknowledge people’s concerns about this behaviour.

    Blaze ,
    @Blaze@reddthat.com avatar

    When people ask about generalist instance recommendations, here’s my list

    • lemm.ee is the second most active instance and avoids joining Lemmy.world which is already too big (you can join LW if you really want)
    • sh.itjust.works works, if you don’t mind the name
    • if you are based in Europe, discuss.tchncs.de is very well managed (they have other services at tchncs.de)
    • if you are based in North America, lemmy.ca is nice
    • reddthat.com is cool if you don’t want downvotes

    That’s pretty much it. Other instances are either topic-based or regional, but then people have to look them up on lemmyverse or fedidb

    sudneo ,

    I see absolutely no reason why you couldn’t be a Dev and an admin, in a decentralized platform. If this was a single-server platform, maybe. But here, how does the moderation policy of lemmy.ml affects anything but posts over there?

    Also, beehaw has a very politicized banning policy, would you say that is unacceptable? I see it as perfectly fine and I would be fine as well if they were to contribute to Lemmy code (unless they try to build their policies into the code and therefore enforce them everywhere - which is something we know the Lemmy devs are not doing).

    Schadrach ,

    and suggestions that ‘any instance is fine’, although true in a technical sense - is a little misleading

    I’d say more than a little. I always suggest they look at the instance rules and also who the instance blocks to make sure they’re OK following those rules and being blocked from that content before picking. Part of why I picked SDF was that they block no other servers.

    I think the blurring of the lines between developers of the Lemmy open source project, and admins of the lemmy.ml instance is a self-sabotaging and tone-deaf reflection on the site, and hurts chances of wider adoption.

    Why? They explicitly haven’t baked any of their moderation/administration preferences into the code and have rejected suggestions that they should bake things along those lines into the code. If they decide to, that sounds like an awfully good reason for a fork. You don’t have to love the devs and their politics to use the software they developed, though you should probably be on board if you want to use the instance that they run.

    ZILtoid1991 ,

    What is their Rule 1?

    blackn1ght ,

    “Be nice and civil” - which is a fair enough rule, but it’s always used as a blanket ban. Most of the removed comments weren’t hostile or uncivil

    The thread was posted into the memes community too so there’s always going to be a bit of banter, but most comments that weren’t in support of China were removed.

    RogueSensei ,
    @RogueSensei@lemmy.world avatar

    “No bigotry - including racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, or xenophobia.” - plus a link to the lemmy Code of conduct

    ZILtoid1991 ,

    Someone should write an honest version of it.

    higgsboson ,

    They include anything less than fawning over CCP under “xenophobia”.

    barsquid ,

    “Don’t write any facts about China.”

    higgsboson ,
    1. Be a tankie
    2. Dont not be a tankie
    kilgore_trout ,

    So many of you will now probably think something like: “So what, it’s the fediverse, you can use another instance.”

    That is really the solution though, isn’t it.

    rufus ,

    I don’t think so. It’s a bit like being bullied and your friends are being bullied, too. What do you do? Leave the room and be happy they bully your friends and not you? Keep silent which ultimately enables them? No. You’re being vocal about it. You warn your friends not to go in there. And you try to do sth about it. In the end it’s the bullies who should leave, not the nice people. Or the whole place is doomed and just getting worse.

    laughterlaughter ,

    Silly. The internet is full of echo chambers. Just move on. If an instance is run by people you can’t reason with, why hang out there? Will you try and change 4chan too?

    rufus ,

    And am I supposed to let other people be subject to that, too? Let people like that drag down Lemmy as a whole? Shouldn’t I have a nice and welcoming place on the internet for me and my friends?

    Do you like echo chambers? If you want my perspective: I have until now recommended Lemmy to exactly zero of my friends. Because of things like this. Lemmy has quite some potential. But it just has so many issues to tackle and the culture here just isn’t what appeals to “normal” people. If other people share my experience, that’s exactly why Lemmy still is below 50k active users and super small.

    Sure. I moved away from the .ml communities a few weeks ago because I think it’s the right thing to do (for me). It’s just dragging down everyone and making Lemmy a worse place. Like we see constantly with all the posts like this. Should we (the people who want more than an echo chamber, and want fair and honest discussions) all abandon Lemmy?

    laughterlaughter ,

    And am I supposed to let other people be subject to that, too? Let people like that drag down Lemmy as a whole? Shouldn’t I have a nice and welcoming place on the internet for me and my friends?

    It’s… Lemmy. One instance does not represent all of it. Move to a friendlier instance. That’s the beauty of the fediverse.

    And in the end, lemmy.ml, like many other instances, are run by its owners, technically for the fun of it. They’re absorbing the cost. Not us. They can do whatever they want with their little toy server.

    Look, I’m not defending them. They suck. I’m just saying that the internet is vast. Why focus of one small corner of it? Again, that’s like trying to change 4chan. Or moving to a tornado area and trying to get rid of the tornadoes.

    rufus , (edited )

    I get you. But they’re the flagship instance. At least they used to be. They shape the brand identity of whole Lemmy. And that’s being tankie and having a culture that could be nice, but regularly isn’t. So everyone on the internet knows Lemmy isn’t really something I want to subject myself to. And if we’re being honest, alsmost nobody knows the fine nuances of power abuse on specific instances. It’s just “Lemmy” that this gets attributed to.

    Every interaction here represents Lemmy. Some disproportionately so.

    And we’ve established, me leaving (which I’ve done) is not gonna change anything about it. The communities are still amongst the largest and where most of the users are, and also attracting the new users.

    Your argumantation would be perfectly valid if lemmy.ml were some small instance that’s unheard of by most users. Or blocked by the rest of the network. We could ignore them then, let them do their own thing like the Fediverse does with a few nazi and conspiracy instances. But this isn’t the case here.

    Regarding money and doing it “for the fun of it”: That’s not correct. They get money for two or three full-time jobs from the NLNet fund and the EU. They could be having fun, too. But they definitely also get a substancial amount of money for it.

    Concerning the 4chan example: That’s on point. 4chan is the epitome of echo chamber and incel culture. That’s mainly because there’s no one else. They left. And now, why would anyone else visit a place like that in the first place? I’d rather not Lemmy become like that. Do you?

    laughterlaughter ,

    Wait… is lemmy.ml really the flagship instance? I thought that was lemmy.world.

    Here’s how I see it: an instance becomes bullshit, all the rest of the instances defederate from them. It has happened in the past, it will keep happening in the future. Lemmy self-corrects.

    And if it doesn’t, welp, it will go the way of Slashdot, Digg and Reddit. I’d be okay with that.

    rufus ,

    It’s lemmy.ml . During the API wars on Reddit lots of people came here and lots of new instances were founded. lemmy.world was part of that and quickly grew into -I think- the now largest instance by far. But lemmy.ml is at least 2 years older and hosted by the actual developers. And due to history hosts to this point some of the large communities.

    Yeah. And “Lemmy self-corrects” is kind of what this post is about (in my opinion.) I’d like to see lemmy.world and a few other instances now do it and defederate. That’s how it should be, call out bullshit, be vocal and then do something about it. My point is, we’re at phase 1 or 2. Now we’re going to see if Lemmy self-corrects. As of now it didn’t.

    I think just hoping for a bright future isn’t cutting it. And if you ask me, all the infighting and defederating each other also isn’t healthy.

    laughterlaughter ,

    Thanks for the history lesson. I didn’t really know lemmy.ml was the first Lemmy instance.

    TheFonz ,

    I don’t mind being banned from the ml instance. The issue is their users come to all the other instances and use the same old strategies to stifle any speech by engaging extremely hyperbolic language and name-calling. The goal is to have a chilling effect on any discourse where their opinions are scrutinized in the slightest.

    They can’t engage with any topics or offer counter arguments. Every response is:

    “I don’t know how to respond to your argument. You must be a _____________[insert ‘racist’ or ‘genocide defending’ or ‘fascist’ or my new favorite ‘zionist’]”

    Gamers_Mate ,

    Or a bunch of memes that are on the same level as what a MAGA idiot would make.

    lltnskyc , (edited )

    They can’t engage with any topics or offer counter arguments. Every response is:

    Calling people fascists, insulting and using ad hominems is lemmy.world’s thing.
    The comment section to this is mind-blowing, really.
    All the things of which users of lemmy.world are accusing other instances, is exactly what your instance is doing.
    And you don’t even see the hypocrisy…

    TheFonz ,

    While I will be the first to admit that name calling and being incapable to engage with arguments is typical for social media platforms, I can also testify that it is the only treatment I’ve ever received from LML users. And the goal is pretty clear: you’re with us or you’re not. When you haven’t forged your own independent conclusions through reflection and any deeper examination but rather through mimicry and simulated discourse your only option is fall back to in-groups or out-groups.

    As an LML user the game quickly becomes: how fast can I “otherise” my interlocutor so that I don’t have to respond to their points because that would require looking in the mirror and not liking what I might see.

    lltnskyc ,

    And I received no such treatment from LML users (but do receive such treatment with almost every comment at lemmy.world and similar instances).
    Hm, can it be because both instances just censure the opposite opinions and label it as misinformation resulting in echo-chambers and both groups believing their own (false) truth?..
    Nah, no way, after all we are the good ones and the other side is bad and is censoring the truth while we are censoring misinformation and propaganda 🤦

    TheFonz ,

    I’m curious if you’ve ever pushed back against the grain of lml or if perhaps your opinions already align? lemmy.world is a big tent so you’ll get a bigger diversity of users. LML skews heavily in one narrow direction so they have to contend with more outfielders and by default need to cater to their own insularity.

    It’s possible that your experience has been positive so far. The reach of this post alone which started this thread shows how much of an existential challenge LML is. How many threads are there on LML about being banned from lemmy.world? This one is like the 3rd or 4th i’ve seen (just from this month!) about being banned from LML.

    lltnskyc ,

    I’m curious if you’ve ever pushed back against the grain of lml or if perhaps your opinions already align?

    I never post about communists and stuff, I post about horrors that are happening in Ukraine (not the ones that are committed by Russia, but by Zelensky’s regime with support from the west), and I guess it so happens that it aligns with their narration of anti-imperialism/anti-USA (that’s why I’m not censored and generally agreed with there), but it totally misaligns with heavily left-leaning views of lemmy.world and similar instances who think they are the good guys and are helping Ukrainians instead of slaughtering them (and that’s I’m censored and generally disagreed with and even called fascist here).

    How many threads are there on LML about being banned from lemmy.world?

    I guess being banned/censored from left-leaning communities is so not surprising anymore that people do not even see a point in doing so? I see no point in creating such a thread. But that’s just my opinion.

    TheFonz ,

    Your statement sounds like: “being banned from left leaning lemmy.world is so common we don’t even bother talking about it over here at lml”. Ok, I guess? Not much for me to contend with there.

    I don’t want to take the bait about your Ukraine stance, because it’s a peculiar insertion at this point but ok. Suffice it to say it seems like you already agree with the de facto LML stance: west is evil. I push back against statements on l.world every day and I’m not worried about being banned. I push back one time on one thread on lml and the rest is history.

    I do take umbrage with your stance on Ukraine, however (bait taken): That the US is a giant military industrial complex pulling the puppet strings from the shadows and sending Ukrainians to the slaughter. This is also a typical LML position that I hear often and seems to fall apart pretty quickly when examined a little better. This position seems to divorce Ukrainians of any agency in determining their future. Are they not entitled to defending the sovereignty of their nation? Who are you (or I) to tell them under what circumstances they should be allowed to push back against an invading force such as Russia? They are a sovereign nation that agreed to the Budapest memorandum and regardless who supplies them with weapons they can determine for themselves their destiny. It isn’t for us to adjudicate from some kind of moral high ground which parts of Ukraine should be sliced off to the highest bidder even if the bullets they fire are made in capitalist imperialist evil America.

    lltnskyc ,

    Suffice it to say it seems like you already agree with the de facto LML stance: west is evil.

    Yep, that’s correct. (btw I definitely do not associate myself with communists, it’s just that we agree on this particular point)

    This position seems to divorce Ukrainians of any agency in determining their future.

    It doesn’t! Those who want to fight, should definitely fight, and I don’t argue against west supporting those who want to fight with weapons, training, and whatever else. It’s actually the west that is not giving Ukrainians any choice in determining their future (see text below).

    Are they not entitled to defending the sovereignty of their nation?

    Again, they absolutely are! I totally support right for self-defense.

    Who are you (or I) to tell them under what circumstances they should be allowed to push back against an invading force such as Russia?

    Absolutely correct again and I totally agree with you, nobody should be able to prevent people from “pushing back against an invading force”.

    They are a sovereign nation that agreed to the Budapest memorandum and regardless who supplies them with weapons they can determine for themselves their destiny. It isn’t for us to adjudicate from some kind of moral high ground which parts of Ukraine should be sliced off to the highest bidder even if the bullets they fire are made in capitalist imperialist evil America.

    Again, totally agreed.

    The thing that I’m trying to say, and the thing that I’m getting called a fascist for, is that it is not “west is supporting brave Ukrainians who want to defend their nation and fight Russia to regain the occupied territories at all cost” it is “west is supporting Zelensky’s regime (which I also consider absolutely illegitimate and authoritarian, their terms have expired, they ban all the opposition, they refuse elections, etc.) which forces people to fight by forbidding people to leave the country (which has already lead to many deaths of people who tried to escape this hell by crossing rivers/mountains and not making it), and kidnapping people on the streets, putting them into vans and sending them to the frontlines to die, and making the rest fear of going out” (you can find footages and sources for all of that if you visit my profile’s comments, but lemme know if you want me to repost it again here).

    TheFonz ,

    It seems to me you have more of an issue with the concept of the draft, which ok, is a fine position to take. Nothing wrong with having a stance on that. Some people are pacifists and radically opposed to any type of armed conflict or draft service. But there are valid arguments for the draft too, so you can’t just write them off by painting Zelenski into some type of tyrannical despot.

    But that’s neither here or there. The country is already in the midst of a full fledged war and elections don’t typically occur in time of war.

    I’ve found that it’s best to be precise when articulating a position. When you paint things in broad strokes (ie Zelenskis cabinet as authoritarian) you are inviting unnecessary argumentation from other sides. If your thesis is that the draft is authoritarian then argue your point why you think that is. For instance, I do contend that the draft was executed in Russia under Putin is a manifestation of an authoritarian exercise because there is no justification for the war. Russian soldiers are not going to the meat grinder to defend their homeland. It’s a completely different take. I can also provide counter arguments as to why the notion of the draft is not authoritarian when it’s implemented in the service of defense.

    lltnskyc ,

    It seems to me you have more of an issue with the concept of the draft

    I do have an issue with killing people (because that’s what draft is - you force somebody to go war, where they die) who done you no harm, indeed.

    Some people are pacifists and radically opposed to any type of armed conflict

    I’m not and I don’t really care about what other people do to each other, as long as both parties consent, they are free to wound, murder, rape and do whatever else to each other - “whatever makes your boat float” or something…

    But there are valid arguments for the draft too, so you can’t just write them off by painting Zelenski into some type of tyrannical despot.

    Is there something one can’t provide a valid argument for?
    For one, slavery is extremely good for the economy, if we enslave all the black people (or anybody else, black is here just to make a point) we can have lots of goods and services for fraction of the cost for example, we will solve the unaffordable housing very quickly and many other problems, wouldn’t you agree?
    And yet, I guess, if somebody does that - people will probably argue that that person is a tyrannical despot or something?
    Zelensky effectively enslaved the Ukraine, where people are forced to do what he says, can’t leave, and so on, and yet I wrong to say he is a tyrannical despot?

    The country is already in the midst of a full fledged war and elections don’t typically occur in time of war.

    I am not too well-versed to really argue that point, but quick googling “are elections held during wartime” paints a mixed picture really, and says that at least in case of US it did hold elections during wars.

    If your thesis is …

    My point is a little bit different than simple “draft is not okay” (although that is definitely included) - people in the west are thinking that by helping the Ukrainian government they are helping Ukrainians to survive, and I am trying to tell people that it is exactly the opposite, and by supporting our government, they are only contributing to more of us dying and suffering (and so, I consider them directly responsible for all the deaths), as simple as that.
    I’m having a problem with this narration of “helping”.
    If the narration was honest, like “let’s support Zelensky’s regime and supply him with weapons, because we want to harm Russia no matter the cost and no matter how many Ukrainians die” then it’d be a different conversation, but it isn’t.
    So, I guess, my point is trying to make people admit that this ^ is the case, and not “but we are helping Ukrainians and you are a russian bot!” 🤷‍♂️.
    Thanks for the advice tho, I suppose you are right that I should be more precise when articulating a position.

    TheFonz ,

    I understand what you’re saying.

    On another note, are you Ukrainian by any chance brother? I really feel for you and I can tell that the draft is reality and not a joke for you if that’s the case. I hope I wasn’t rude and that you stay safe.

    lltnskyc , (edited )

    On another note, are you Ukrainian by any chance brother?

    I am. Although nobody believes that because I don’t praise our glorious Lord and Savior Zelensky.

    I really feel for you and I can tell that the draft is reality and not a joke for you if that’s the case.

    Thanks man, really appreciate it! It’s rare to hear that on this instance :(

    I hope I wasn’t rude

    You are perfectly reasonable, I wish the rest of the instance could participate in a civil discussion instead of name-calling and ad hominem.

    stay safe

    Thanks again man.
    I am safe, as I’ve left Ukraine before the war started, so unless other countries start cooperating with Zelensky’s regime and kidnap people from the streets [and send them to Ukraine to die] there is no threat for me.
    Unfortunately it’s not true for some of my family members, my friends, and millions of Ukrainians :(

    TheFonz ,

    I totally understand! Peace and love homie.

    ShitOnABrick ,
    @ShitOnABrick@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s genuinely nice to see two people with completely different opinions and views on a topic just get along nevermind engage in civil discourse and debate. Thats something I find Exceptionally hard to find on Lemmy. Thumbs up from me mate 👍

    TheFonz ,

    That’s Lemmy.world for ya! Stick around 🙂

    ShitOnABrick ,
    @ShitOnABrick@lemmy.world avatar

    I’ve been on instance for 8 months now m8.

    rah ,

    I post about horrors that are happening in Ukraine (not the ones that are committed by Russia, but by Zelensky’s regime with support from the west)

    Any chance of a link? Just out of curiosity.

    lltnskyc ,

    Sure, and not just one!
    Here is a collection of footage of people being kidnapped from the streets, put into vans and sent to die: uadraftmuseum.ch
    Here is a recent news (in ukr, so please use a translator) that now they will be breaking into people’s homes to do the same: focus.ua/…/650441-mobilizaciya-po-novomu-voennaya…
    And a few more links about how people are trying to survive this hell, and how people are dying trying to escape:
    www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/…/ar-BB1naQUE
    www.rferl.org/a/…/32310040.html
    www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065
    theguardian.com/…/bribes-and-hiding-at-home-the-u…

    ShitOnABrick , (edited )
    @ShitOnABrick@lemmy.world avatar

    The uadraftmuseum is interesting I might look into it when I get the chance.

    rah ,

    Thanks but I meant links to your posts :-) Or more specifically, the communities you post to with anti-regime info. I looked through your profile but I couldn’t see where you were posting such things beyond World News.

    lltnskyc ,

    Oh, gotcha!

    Sorry for being confusing, by “posting” I actually meant “commenting”, I don’t really post anything.
    You can see all comments in my profile, but I guess due to way lemmy works you can only see all of them if you open it through my home instance? idk, but here’s the link: monero.town/u/lltnskyc

    ShitOnABrick , (edited )
    @ShitOnABrick@lemmy.world avatar

    I agree with you. Alot of hypocrites in lemmy.world. Think that censorship is okay when they are the ones doing it and it suits they’re agenda. I personally am of the belief that we shouldn’t censor any speech. No matter how uncomfortable it might make you me or them feel. Any kind of censorship should be condemned including Lemmy.world and lemmy.ml censorship. I think that both tankie nutcases and MAGA nutcases have a right to freedom of speech and expression. but so does everyone else.

    lltnskyc ,

    Oh well, prepare for the downvotes now, I guess…

    ShitOnABrick ,
    @ShitOnABrick@lemmy.world avatar

    Downdoots hardly mean a thing to me. Bring erm on

    moormaan ,

    I actually upvoted the comment because I agree that silencing voices (which aren’t harassing or abusive) is a bad thing, regardless of what opinion they are expressing. But downvotes aren’t the same as admins banning you based purely on difference of opinion, let’s not conflate the two. This thread is about the latter, while downvotes are just another form of free speech.

    lltnskyc ,

    But downvotes aren’t the same as admins banning you based purely on difference of opinion, let’s not conflate the two. This thread is about the latter, while downvotes are just another form of free speech.

    But I don’t complain about it and don’t conflate the two! I totally agree that downvotes is just another form of free speech.
    That was just ironic “you agreed with me that censuring people is wrong and now people are going to show you how wrong you are” kind of thing, I have nothing against downvotes (I mean I’d prefer people try to engage in a civil conversation instead of that, but I’m definitely not forcing anybody to do anything, downvote away) :)

    retrospectology ,
    @retrospectology@lemmy.world avatar

    I do understand how the brigades can be annoying for sure, but I don’t mind arguing with tankies, – I think it’s actually really useful for exposing their propaganda for what it is. It helps expose normal people to counter arguments so that they might become a little more aware, rather than just seeing propaganda go unaddressed and being morel likely to assume it must then be true.

    The only issue I have personally is if the mods are in on it too and delete your posts/comments because you start to make a bit too much sense.

    Gamers_Mate ,

    Its about time people bring up the .ml tankie problem. Lemmygrad was defederated but .ml was ignored due to basically being their PR instance.
    This is the main reason I have stuck to kbin social despite it having a lot of spam and errors and why I am now on Mbin.

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • random
  • [email protected]
  • lifeLocal
  • goranko
  • All magazines
    •