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Lemmy.ml tankie censorship problem

I feel like we need to talk about Lemmy’s massive tankie censorship problem. A lot of popular lemmy communities are hosted on lemmy.ml. It’s been well known for a while that the admins/mods of that instance have, let’s say, rather extremist and onesided political views. In short, they’re what’s colloquially referred to as tankies. This wouldn’t be much of an issue if they didn’t regularly abuse their admin/mod status to censor and silence people who dissent with their political beliefs and for example, post things critical of China, Russia, the USSR, socialism, …

As an example, there was a thread today about the anniversary of the Tiananmen Massacre. When I was reading it, there were mostly posts critical of China in the thread and some whataboutist/denialist replies critical of the USA and the west. In terms of votes, the posts critical of China were definitely getting the most support.

I posted a comment in this thread linking to “archive.ph/2020.07.12-074312/https://…/AIIbbPs” (WARNING: graphical content), which describes aspects of the atrocities that aren’t widely known even in the West, and supporting evidence. My comment was promptly removed for violating the “Be nice and civil” rule. When I looked back at the thread, I noticed that all posts critical of China had been removed while the whataboutist and denialist comments were left in place.

This is what the modlog of the instance looks like:

https://feddit.nl/pictrs/image/6886b092-43d3-408b-ab57-2fa686f8a6c7.png

Definitely a trend there wouldn’t you say?

When I called them out on their one sided censorship, with a screenshot of the modlog above, I promptly received a community ban on all communities on lemmy.ml that I had ever participated in.

Proof:

https://feddit.nl/pictrs/image/9c52e470-645f-46ba-ac1d-0b7d8be17af3.png

So many of you will now probably think something like: “So what, it’s the fediverse, you can use another instance.”

The problem with this reasoning is that many of the popular communities are actually on lemmy.ml, and they’re not so easy to replace. I mean, in terms of content and engagement lemmy is already a pretty small place as it is. So it’s rather pointless sitting for example in /c/[email protected] where there’s nobody to discuss anything with.

I’m not sure if there’s a solution here, but I’d like to urge people to avoid lemmy.ml hosted communities in favor of communities on more reasonable instances.

db0 ,
@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

When I called them out on their one sided censorship, with a screenshot of the modlog above, I promptly received a community ban on all communities on lemmy.ml that I had ever participated in.

Note that this is likely just an automated script to ensure all your comments are removed from lemmy.ml before being sitebanned, as sitebanning doesn’t remove all content.

johannesvanderwhales ,

This seems like a by design thing.

StaySquared ,

Semi-O/T

There’s censorship just for having a different opinion. When you challenge someone’s belief in any subject… or just simply have a disagreement, you’re getting banned. Lemmy is following in the foot steps of Reddit in the sense that it appears that the left/progressives want to be segregated and keep the division. No dialogue, no meeting in the middle… just ban anyone who threatens their bubble.

Illuminostro ,

Gaslight. Obstruct. PROJECT.

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@discuss.online avatar

I mentioned elsewhere but here’s a copy and paste:

It is far more than just that. Removing comments is one thing, mass-banning from many communities at once despite never even having commented in them at all is another, but the real issue is using database manipulation to delete the log entries as to why the comments were removed after the fact.

Even if unintentional, which strains credulity, this is some spez-level stuff going on, where we have the option to either take what a single person (who does not seem inclined to follow their own stated rules) offers, or else we can leave. Many are choosing the latter, and like the Rexodus, making the situation known to others as well in the process.

“Criticizing China” was merely the spark that lit the match, with the situation offering proof of what apparently people have been suspecting for some time now.

Alice ,
@Alice@hilariouschaos.com avatar

💯

Alphane_Moon ,
@Alphane_Moon@lemmy.world avatar

I would suggest trying to get out of the english-language (American-centric) internet bubble with respect to dialogue, “challenging beliefs” and the broader nature of what you consider to be censorship.

Focus on real-world (internet can be a red hearing) examples of cases (particularly in Asia, Africa but Europe and LATAM too) that contradict your statements around “just ban anyone who threatens their bubble”.

Then consider the what are the real world consequences of tankie propaganda, again better to avoid US narratives/examples. Just try a good faith approach to this question.

StaySquared ,

I have no idea what you’re suggesting… but just about the entire non-western world laughs at Reddit-type leftists because they can’t come to terms with reality. So much so they (Reddit-type leftists) refuse vehemently to acknowledge that it is their feelings that they’re putting before facts of life. Refuse facts, refuse reality.

Alphane_Moon ,
@Alphane_Moon@lemmy.world avatar

Perhaps I misunderstood your post, were you referring to the actions of lemmy.ml mods or the proposal to avoid lemmy.ml communities?

Aux ,

Tankies are modding many communities here as well. The solution is to fight them tooth and nail.

Mastengwe ,

Oh they are all over the politics communities. Both as mods and as trolls.

el_bhm ,

Pretty sure they are creating alt accounts on non-tankie instances.

Snowpix ,
@Snowpix@lemmy.ca avatar

They are. Many usernames are strangely familiar despite being relatively new accounts, and there’s often a matching .ml or Hexbear user. They know their nonsense is unwelcome.

33550336 ,
@33550336@lemmy.world avatar

Tankies warming up to call you and Lemmy.World fascists in 3, 2, 1…

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/956332a9-1a24-4692-b35b-55ca93997656.webp

Lianodel , (edited )

Tankies: The word ‘tankie’ is meaningless because it gets overused by disingenuous people on the right.

Also tankies: Everyone who criticizes my position is right-wing.

OpenStars ,
@OpenStars@discuss.online avatar

Every word used by disingenuous people on the right becomes “useless” - freedom, patriot, Christian, help, law, order, justice, democracy, Constitution, agreement, good, bad - you name it, they twist it into a 100% polar opposite of what it used to mean before they got their hands on it.

So at some point, I think perhaps they should not be in charge… of what words “mean”? :-P

That said, ‘tankie’ is pejorative so perhaps we can find a better one for that different reason. I don’t know what, or for sure that a pejorative is bad, but maybe “authoritarian”, totalitarian, or fascist seems accurate - as in not beholden to “principles” so much as whoever holds the power gets to do whatever they want.

33550336 ,
@33550336@lemmy.world avatar

They also sometimes overuse the word “ultra”, but instead of “right wing” they use the word “reactionary”, to be compliant wit soviet aesthetics I suppose.

SkyezOpen ,

No, we want EVERYONE to feel welcome.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f875b0d5-b30e-470f-8a7d-3b665bdf7418.jpeg

pyre , (edited )

wait, so if someone is a Nazi, you want us to be respectful of them too? you’re falling into the tolerance paradox again. “EVERYONE” here shouldn’t really include the intolerant. if the intolerant feel welcome in a space, that space quickly becomes inhospitable to anyone who isn’t.

edit: yeah i misread the image and the intent of the comment. apologies.

SkyezOpen ,

I feel like you’re not understanding the image

Kecessa ,

You just made me realize that I have been banned from some of the communities over there while never having posted on them, mods are reading conversations in other communities and preemptively banning people…

Weslee ,

Ah reminds me of good ol’ reddit

Schadrach ,

Oh, boy. Back to the old Reddit patterns. How long before they start using bots to preemptively ban anyone who has ever posted on certain communities regardless of context as a time saving measure, because that was a thing on Reddit as well?

Any idea which subs are banning like that already?

StaySquared ,

Bingo.

I honestly thought it was more along the lines of they read a comment/post from another community that they didn’t like, more than likely checked their history and then decided to ban them.

figaro ,

I’m all for defederating from tankie instances. They suck.

vga ,

Yes, we should all recognize that Lemmy.ml is a tankie instance.

yamanii ,
@yamanii@lemmy.world avatar

Reread OP

whoreticulture ,

lmao get back to me when the mods on lemmy.world stop deleting every comment that is critical of Biden. STFU. There is no recourse for mods on Lemmy and they can use their powers to delete any comments they want. The only recourse you have is to find a fediverse that caters to your weakass centrist views.

RememberTheApollo_ ,

If anyone cares to check my comment history they’ll find a crapton of rebuttals to anti-biden comments that were NOT deleted by anyone.

whoreticulture ,

So the pro-Biden comments are staying up? Exactly like I said ? lmao

Emperor ,
@Emperor@feddit.uk avatar

The thing is, the Fediverse, link the original concept of the Internet is flexible and can survive losing nodes - it just routes around and issue. If there are problems it can mutate and survive.

I’m not sure if there’s a solution here, but I’d like to urge people to avoid lemmy.ml hosted communities in favor of communities on more reasonable instances.

This is the best solution - the answers are in our hands. Communities only thrive because the users are.posting and interacting on it. If the Mod goes inactive or an instances goes down, we can switch to a new community. That then gains the momentum and goes on to thrive. It’s survival of the fittest and why having more than one community on a topic (especially big topics) is a feature not a bug because it gives the network flexibility and resilience.

So if there’s an issue with lemmy.ml, boycott it - unsubscribe, give the other communities on more agreeable instances your time and they will grow and prosper. If there isn’t a relevant alternative start one.

Lemmy prevails.

RecursiveParadox , (edited )
@RecursiveParadox@lemmy.world avatar

This is a good answer and probably the right solution (still not 100% convinced defederating isn’t, ultimately, going to be the answer though).

But your Jane/Joe Average User doesn’t look to see which instance that pr0n cute picture of a cat holding a teddy bear is on. They probably don’t even understand the concept of different instances showing content from others. Hell I’ve been online since 1992 and it took me a couple of days to get my head around it when I joined.

So I think we need some kind of step by step “If you see X, then do Y” sticked to the instances that care about this for the people who (like me) do care about this issue.

Emperor ,
@Emperor@feddit.uk avatar

still not 100% convinced defederating isn’t, ultimately, going to be the answer though

It may be, but only as a last resort.

So I think we need some kind of step by step “If you see X, then do Y” sticked to the instances that care about this for the people who (like me) do care about this issue.

Yes, the map of thr Fediverse needs “here be dragons” sprinkled around.

SpaceCadet OP ,
@SpaceCadet@feddit.nl avatar

This is the best solution - the answers are in our hands

There is the problem of network effect though. People who frequent communities on lemmy.ml are often blissfully unaware of how problematic that instance is, like I was until a few days ago, and so they’re unlikely to just move as they have no immediate reason to.

It’s easy to say just pack up and move … but I’ve been really struggling to find an alternative for !linux, to name one example. The equivalent communities !linux and !linux are rather stale with days old posts without comments.

So I think it’s not just something an individual user can solve for themselves, and I think that the larger instances also have a role to play here. If they would defederate from lemmy.ml, it would urge users along to move away from lemmy.ml communities towards communities on other, more suitable instances.

Next to that, we should also spread awareness about the lemmy.ml problem, and that was my intent when I originally made this post.

Blaze ,
@Blaze@reddthat.com avatar

It’s easy to say just pack up and move … but I’ve been really struggling to find an alternative for !linux, to name one example. The equivalent communities !linux and !linux are rather stale with days old posts without comments.

!linux now has 983 weekly active users: programming.dev/post/15328354

I think that the larger instances also have a role to play here. If they would defederate from lemmy.ml, it would urge users along to move away from lemmy.ml communities towards communities on other, more suitable instances.

People have choices. If they want to keep using the Lemmy.ml community, that’s their freedom. The alternatives exist, if they want to switch, they can.

Intrigued by your name change, you are really pushing for this.

SpaceCadet OP ,
@SpaceCadet@feddit.nl avatar

People have choices. If they want to keep using the Lemmy.ml community, that’s their freedom. The alternatives exist, if they want to switch, they can.

Because network effect is a thing, it’s really the illusion of choice. When a lemmy.ml community has 50k subscribers and the equivalent lemmy.world or programming.dev community has just a tenth of that, it’s not really a choice. People will always gravitate towards ml and the smaller community will never gain critical mass unless some strong enough outside force influences that decision.

Which brings me to …

Intrigued by your name change, you are really pushing for this.

I think defederation from lemmy.ml together with raising awareness about ml should be the outside force to move communities off lemmy.ml.

Blaze ,
@Blaze@reddthat.com avatar

Same link

viking ,
@viking@infosec.pub avatar

Tankies gonna tank. Just block their shit instance and move on with your life.

wahming ,

The issue at hand is there are way too many neutral / unrelated communities which are resident on .ml, and it’d be nice if we could manage to move some of them off.

TachyonTele ,

You can. Create a new community and tell the most active people in the original about it. Once everyone posts in the new comm you’re done.

It’s not like it hasn’t been done before.

wahming ,

Well yes, that’s what this entire post is about. My comment is just replying to OP that it’s a little bit more than ‘block and move on’.

AmosBurton_ThatGuy ,
@AmosBurton_ThatGuy@lemmy.ca avatar

Ten forward is a good example, the big posters in c/risa got fed up with the mods and made ten forward on Lemmy.world. Now I almost never see risa anymore but ten forward is always on the front page.

TachyonTele ,

That was exactly the comm I had in mind!

fine_sandy_bottom ,

The solution is… to abandon the notion that there’s some special utopia where we might reside.

There’s an idea that we all need to find or build some special platform which is going to be a home for all our communities and be transparent and balanced and free from corporate influence and perpetually shiny and awesome. It’s not only unachievable but probably not desirable either.

Instead, embrace the reality that the communities we want to engage with will be in different places on different platforms and each will have different issues.

There’s some niche communities on reddit, and yes that platform is run by a corporation but that doesn’t bother me when I’m only there to find a new recipe for snack that matches my diet requirements. I despise facebook but I do use their marketplace to sell junk my wife buys online. I’m aware of the privacy issues with telegram but that’s where I have a family chat group with my sisters. I recently discovered an XMPP channel about DIY bike maintenance which has been amazingly helpful, but I don’t like the XMPP clients I’ve tried. The forum on a torrent tracker I use is a great place to find new books to read but I need to use a VPN to access it.

My point is, the best part of the modern web is the disparate platforms we have available. Every platform has it’s own character, and caveats to be mindful of.

The kind of censorship you’re talking about is obviously repugnant, but the reality is that it’s just something to keep in mind when participating in lemmy.ml communities. You can refuse to participate there if you wish, but a mass-exodus on that basis just isn’t how things should work in 2024.

wahming ,

mass-exodus on that basis just isn’t how things should work in 2024.

Why not? You’ve made an assertion without any reason backing it up.

Nobody’s suggesting a mass exodus to a single lemmy server, but rather just a dispersal from .ml to the rest of the fediverse. There’s no reason it can’t or shouldn’t happen.

fine_sandy_bottom ,

It’s as though you only read the last sentence of my comment

wahming ,

I’ve read it multiple times. None of it quite addresses why we can’t just move communities away from .ml en masse. From the votes I’m not the only one having trouble discerning your point.

fine_sandy_bottom ,

Good lord. If you think lemmy votes are an indicator of solid reasoning I don’t know what to tell you.

Communities aren’t going to move away from lemmy.ml because no one cares enough about this issue.

You can dream that that’s how communities ought to work but they just don’t.

wahming ,

So your wall of text boiled down to ‘we can, but we won’t because nobody cares’. That’s pretty different from ‘that’s not how things should work in 2024’.

You can dream that that’s how communities ought to work but they just don’t.

Ironically, that’s how most of us ended up here on lemmy, we as a community decided to move off reddit.

fine_sandy_bottom ,

We didn’t migrate “as a community”. All the same communities still exist on reddit.

Alice ,
@Alice@hilariouschaos.com avatar

Lol if ‘annoying internet personality’ were a person it’d be that guy lol

fine_sandy_bottom ,

LOL I’m sorry my opinion is so annoying LOL.

Grimy ,

I agree with the sentiment of your post and I won’t comment on the other posts that were banned but your image turns into hardcore gore half way through. Like hanged burned bodies and people leaking their brains.

Maybe it was removed for the wrong reason but it’s not as innocent as you make it seem.

SpaceCadet OP ,
@SpaceCadet@feddit.nl avatar

Like “how dare you actually show the atrocities my Chinese overlords committed in a way that can’t be denied” ?

Grimy ,

Ya it’s a fine line I guess but any kind of gore goes directly into the “can be removed” category in my opinion. I fully understand if some mods want to keep the link up and some mods don’t and I won’t be judging either camp.

I’m just commenting on the fact that you specifically don’t really have a right to complain but that being said, the other posts that were deleted probably didn’t have gore in them.

Strawberry ,

If you wanna educate people on the events in Beijing around the tiananmen square protests, the Wikipedia page has a decent overview of the scientific consensus, what is established to have happened, and what is not. What you shouldn’t do is give some random Imgur post with unsourced claims and gore images to shock people into embracing the narrative you want to push

retrospectology ,
@retrospectology@lemmy.world avatar

I was actually banned for linking to the wiki about the Uyghur genocide and the death toll estimates from the Great Leap forward. It’s not about the gore, it’s about them trying to distance public understanding of the true horror and extreme violence that took place at Tiananmen etc.

The CCP’s objective for at least the last decade or two has been trying to make the government in China apoear “normal”. Before this latest era people understood clearly that China was extremely authoritarian, but that understanding is being eroded as the CCP puts up a civilized facade, when that’s not the reality – they’re still brutalizing people it’s just so horrifyingly systematic and industrialized that you can’t even see it on the surface anymore due to how they doggedly chase information and dissidents.

They achieve this by downplaying events like Tiananmen, invasion of Tibet, Uyghur genocide, brutalization of HK etc. They exercise the most extreme measures to silence dissidents even when they are in other countries, and they repeat over and over again how the west is “just as bad!” until it becomes background noise. Having tankies modding communities helps supercharge this effort by allowing them to remove anyone who confronts that narrative, leaving only what they want people to see.

SorteKanin ,
@SorteKanin@feddit.dk avatar

If this was an isolated case, I would also give the benefit of the doubt like you say here. Unfortunately there’s a clear pattern when it comes to moderator and admin actions on lemmy.ml which makes me think it has nothing to do with the gore.

pewgar_seemsimandroid ,

made a community rn !de_ml

fine_sandy_bottom ,

Amazing.

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