So, on pronouns.

olafurp , 9 months ago

If I’m asked then I say my pronoun is his royal highness.

I call others by their cis gender unless either it’s obvious like wearing a dress or corrected. People can choose how they want to be addressed but shouldn’t expect me to know lol.

One extra note on using they them when you don’t know: No, I’m going to assume that the person is not in the 2% of people that look like one gender and aren’t.

muntedcrocodile , 9 months ago

I make assumptions say what i think if im corrected then sure ill refer to u how u want. And when people get mad for me assuming they can get fucked and grow up they are juat words and if words hurt u that bad uve got bigger problems than ur pronouns.

innermachine , 9 months ago

Facts. My mom is Spanish ASF and to this day regularly misgenders people all the time (call me and my brother she, call sisters he), just hasn’t come easy to her. As long as somebody isn’t INTENTIONALLY calling u the wrong pronouns for the express purpose of pissing you off u just correct them and move on. If u get that hung up on a simple innocent mistake u need to step back and adjust your shitty attitude.

planish , 9 months ago

I think the key is for it to be a provisional guess and not a will-be-shocked-if-it’s-wrong assumption. You need to be prepared to have been wrong.

JackbyDev , 9 months ago

I agree with what you’re saying but there’s a gentler way to say this. No need to say they can get fucked.

muntedcrocodile , 9 months ago

Yeah sometimes i forgot that not everyone uses swear words like we do down under

eupraxia , 9 months ago

Yeah, I think that’s pretty much all that is generally needed. I’ve had people assume but ask me first, just asking “she/her?” as a question, I respond yes, we go about our business. If you don’t want to assume, you can also pretty much universally use they/them in passing, or if it’s someone you interact with more frequently, people really don’t tend to mind if you ask.

I mean I’m trans, I get around quite a bit in queer spaces, I haven’t met anyone who would get super mad about initially assuming pronouns rather than just saying “hey I prefer XYZ” and moving on. Generally when people react strongly to being misgendered, it’s due to ongoing conflict over their identities, having to deal with people who use pronouns to casually disregard your Identity, familial abandonment, etc. It is often a response to complex trauma from elsewhere. That’s not really your responsibility, but I’ve been there and if you can offer them any grace in those moments, it’s extremely helpful.

amio , 9 months ago

Mostly it's chill - don't worry about it. If you make an honest mistake, no sane person will think less of you for it. The real faux pas people keep running into is usually just being a cock about this. It's reasonably easy to avoid.

You likely don't need to tell anyone IRL. You're a guy, so he/him is natural. Nobody's likely to even ask. Same applies if it's obvious online, otherwise feel free to add it in your profile or something.

And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out ? Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?

Most people are cis (etc) anyway, so the obvious guess is mostly safe. You rarely need to refer to anyone by a pronoun before they're introduced to you. In that case it's "they" - perfectly normal, native English for centuries, which people sometimes forget. Then, if someone's introduced as "Bob" he's probably fine with "he" etc.

If you're worried about getting it wrong, I'd just wait for a name or refer to them some other way.

I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?

IRL that's unlikely, neopronouns are pretty niche even on the internet. He/she/they will do in the vast majority of cases. People who insist on one of the other ones are fairly rare.

ClockNimble , 9 months ago

Hello! Resident Genderfluid person here. Usually you can just ask their name and that works to get them to give you the greeting they like. They look like a James, but give you the name Samantha? Probably safe to use she/her unless doing so has them ask you to use something else. IRL, at least.

Online? It’s usually in a bio or they will tell you if it is functionally relevant. The only people I (anecdotally) have seen devolve into scree when accidentally misgendered were people trying to start something or acting for the sake of poisoning the well.

As far as using non conventional pronouns irl, you probably haven’t heard it since it is genuinely dangerous to be outed in a lot of places. Look up gay/trans panic laws. It’s dangerous to be queer in America with Conservatives having so much sway right now.

Delicious_Tomatoes , 9 months ago

As far as using non conventional pronouns irl, you probably haven’t heard it since it is genuinely dangerous to be outed in a lot of places.

This is usually true enough for rule of thumb, but can vary wildly by geography. I would be willing to help smuggle a gender minority out of a rural zone, whereas I wouldn’t be too surprised to hear “ze/zim” in some cities. In general, the GSRM community will appreciate a cis ally signaling ally-ship. OP, as long as it’s safe for you, the community would appreciate your announcing pronouns; it signals that you are not a totally garbage human.

amelia , 9 months ago

I would also assume that if someone who looks like a James introduces themselves as Samantha, it’s absolutely fine to ask for the correct pronouns, or ask them to confirm it’s female pronouns. Samantha would probably actually appreciate it.

TheAnonymouseJoker , 9 months ago

I have been using “they/them” to refer to unknown internet persons, regardless of gender, since years now. It is a strategy I adopted not out of the progressive social culture norms, but as a way to anonymise people when referring to them or anything they say. And what do you know, turns out that ambiguous linguistics work like a charm across a wide range of things in life.

JackbyDev , 9 months ago

Also it’s literally the way you’re supposed to refer to individuals of unknown gender.

TheAnonymouseJoker , 9 months ago

Most people today conform to the standards, either out of fear of getting cancelled or out of respect for humanity (recognising third gender and so on). I adopted the convention long before it was known or “popular” to do so. Each of these 3 cases have a huge difference.

To someone like me, it felt very disorienting for people to be so chimp headed, they could not or refused to understand that gender and sex are not the same thing, just because it used to always be 2 tickboxes on school forms. Even more weird was why people would not use ambiguous pronouns for cultural privacy.

robot_dog_with_gun , 9 months ago

just be careful not to de-gender someone who makes it known they have one and prefer particular pronouns.

TheAnonymouseJoker , 9 months ago

I have never done that, and never was asked to. Maybe it is because I already naturally follow the convention before even being asked, and we are quite a bit far away as a global society from needing to take the extra step (rightwingers that purposely degender and all that).

Floey , 9 months ago

I wouldn’t ask someone their pronouns as a conversation opener because it makes some folks uncomfortable. For example a trans person might wonder something like “Do they ask that of everybody? Do I not pass?” if “passing” is something they care about.

It’s better to just correct mistakes when you make them. It’s also just something you’ll pick up automatically talking with people they know, and like here where the hypothetical person’s pronouns are ambiguous you can fall back to they. And when taking to the person themselves you are going to be using you anyway.

Assian_Candor , 9 months ago

This is why saying your pronouns even if you’re obviously cis is cool and good bc it normalizes it

DirigibleProtein , 9 months ago

People who actually care about pronouns will tell you theirs.

madcaesar , 9 months ago

To add to this, I have yet to meet a person in the real world who gives a shit about pronouns. I swear the whole thing is just an online phenomenon used to get people to fight over nonsense.

evelyn , 9 months ago

Most people don’t have to care about pronouns. For a small subset of people the gender of their brain does not match the gender they appear as. Passing as your preferred gender can take years and is mostly down to genetics. So non-passing trans people will ask others to use their pronouns so they can socially transition before they pass. And that isn’t even mentioning non-binary people. The reason cis people specify their pronouns is to normalize it for trans people who don’t have a choice.

seliaste , 9 months ago

In my university Ive been asked what my pronouns were multiple time by all sorts of people
Idk how it is where you live but in french univerities it is definetly real life

Blake , 9 months ago

I’m just a straight male. Are my pronouns he/him?

Probably. Straight is the wrong word here - that refers to your sexuality, not your gender identity. A straight male is into women. But a straight male could also have pronouns other than he/him. Usually, a cisgender male uses he/him pronouns, but not always. Cisgender is a word that means that your gender identity matches your assigned gender at birth - e.g. not transgender

Is that how I should tell people?

Yes, the best way to do it is part of your introductions, like, “Hi, I’m Blake, my pronouns are he him”. Usually people don’t “say” the slash, it’s just a space, but you can say it if you want.

Do you actually tell them as you meet them ?

It’s up to you. If I am meeting someone 1:1 for the first time, I probably wouldn’t unless they did first. I always do it when I’m introducing myself to a group.

Do I have to wait for a certain social cue ?

The only social cue is simply, “what are your pronouns?”. Ideally, we (cisgender folk) should be trying to make it easier for transgender/non-binary people by sharing our pronouns, even if they would be obvious to most people - I’m a hairy, 6’4” bear, most people can tell I identify as male, but if I say my pronouns are he/him or any/all pronouns (I don’t mind which pronouns people use for me) it makes it less awkward for trans people or gender non-conforming (GNC) folk to do so.

How about online. Should I tell people or have it on my personal profile somewhere?

It’s up to you, nobody will expect it from you - it’s personal information after all. If you’re comfortable sharing it, then you can put it anywhere you like, including on your profile, or you can share at the point it becomes relevant.

And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out?

Either they tell you, or you ask them! It’s better if you avoid trying to guess. If you need to use a pronoun and you haven’t been told them, go with they/them.

Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ?

Nope, not at all! No one is expecting you to know their pronouns before they tell you, or you ask.

Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?

Usually not - most of the time, you probably can guess from gender expression, and you wouldn’t cause any offence. If there is even 1% doubt in your mind though, you should definitely just ask. Even if you’re 99.99% or even 100% sure, it’s good to ask anyways. The more we normalise people asking and sharing pronouns, the less awkward it becomes for everyone!

I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?

In my experience, it’s pretty uncommon, but it does exist. Usually they’re used by people who don’t really feel comfortable identifying as exclusively male or exclusively female, or by people who want to subvert or oppose the usual gender binary.

Hope this helps, thanks for being open with your questions and for trying to make the world a better place! If you have any other questions just ask.

theshatterstone54 , 9 months ago

Personally, I use they/them until told otherwise. It makes sure I don’t offend anyone that way.

hardcoreufo , 9 months ago

I’ve been to conferences where the name tag has a place for pronouns but most people don’t fill them out. 99% of the time it’s safe to assume the pronouns you believe are correct, are correct. If you get told otherwise use the preferred pronouns in the future. If someone freaks out over it after one mistake that’s their problem.

You can also get around pronouns by just using names. I find i rarely need to use pronouns.

Gormadt , 9 months ago

And as a bonus linguistic fun fact:

Everyone is they/them until you find out otherwise

Or at least that’s how I was taught English

jpeps , 9 months ago

“I went to see a doctor about my headaches today.”

“Oh good, what did X say?”

Anyone that doesn’t use ‘they’ here either has more information than I provided or is a bit sexist.

elkaki , 9 months ago

Just one thing to add, people freaking out is extremely uncommon. I haven’t even heard about a case IRL, even for trans people it isn’t something that tends to happen.

Don’t be afraid to just guess when you are unsure, you can always ask though and at least for younger generations it isn’t seen as weird or unpolite to do so

Kecessa , 9 months ago

The only place it happens is in conservatives’ minds and when people make the “mistake” on purpose.

elkaki , 9 months ago

A.K.A “the Jordan Peterson experience”

nyakojiru , 9 months ago

I hate you

stealth_cookies , 9 months ago

Your pronouns are whatever you would like to be referred to. Generally someone would either correct you or you would hear the right ones during conversation to learn someone else’s. If they outwardly present as a specific gender then I would normally assume (or default to they/them) and just apologize and correct if someone corrects me. Most normal people will take such an interaction in stride without further thought.

In terms of online, people often add it to their profile so you know, or to indicate to others that you respect their choice of pronouns.

blindsight , 9 months ago

In terms of online, people often add it to their profile so you know, or to indicate to others that you respect their choice of pronouns.

This is the only reason I show my pronouns in my email signature and in virtual meetings. I think it’s important to normalize that people have and use different pronouns and, as an educator, it’s my responsibility to infuse SOGI (sexual orientation and gender identity) into my practices. Every action, however small, moves the needle.

Come to think of it, I should probably figure out how to do that on Lemmy, since I think there’s display name settings?

Maoo , 9 months ago

Many other answers emphasizing to be on the considerate side are good. I just want to add two things.

Some folks have said that when the way you present matches your pronouns, you have less need to offer them. Personally, I think it is good to offer them anyways when meeting new people. People don’t always present exactly in a way that you might expect their pronouns to indicate. As one example among many, someone may present very femme but prefer they/them pronouns.

This also helps us (you and me both!) unlearn some of our learned gender associations and habits of inferring gender based on appearances. It can sometimes be unpleasant to deal with someone that’s clearly trying to figure out their gender identity visually or by voice, etc - trans or not. For an extreme example, there are even cis people getting harassed about which bathroom they’re using (the one aligning with their gender) based on reactionary assumptions.

Finishing up that topic, offering your own pronouns is also a way of letting others know it’s okay to be more open around you, that you are a bit safer than the average person. This can be most impactful, imo, for people who are trans or questioning but who aren’t out yet. A lot of folks are struggling at that point in their lives and it can really help to know who is safer.

My final thought is that when you don’t know someone’s identity, it’s good to get in the habit of using their name or they/them. If it’s a real person irl, then you’d still want to ask for pronouns soon-ish. Occasionally, they/them-ing someone can also become unpleasant, though usually it’ll be obvious from context (e.g. someone who is trans and strongly prefers he/him might perceive continued they/them to be a form of harassing them). Grabbing pronouns soon-ish avoids any awkwardness.

Dirk , 9 months ago

Outside the internet no-one really cares. Inside the Internet only certain bubbles care.

Gsus4 , 9 months ago

And one of the best parts of online discussions is that they are not biased by how you look, just what you write :)

Dirk , 9 months ago

I don’t know if it would be any better rating myself based on looks instead of my writing :D

But yes, that’s a great thing. Everyone in the Internet is just an entity addressed by the nickname. There is no need for gender or pronouns.

bogdugg , 9 months ago

Personally, I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Use what you think is appropriate. If you’re unsure, use they/them; if they correct you, adjust accordingly. If you want to be most accommodating, default to they/them for everyone you meet unless they correct you or you learn otherwise. If you’d like others to feel more comfortable providing pronouns, providing your own - even if you believe it is obvious - can be a way to help normalize it for others.