In the US, did Amazon kill the mall, is everyone too broke, or a combination of other factors?

Dudewitbow , 6 days ago

as someone who lives in a fairly densly populated area, malls are almost directly tied to income levels of the local populace. malls in poorer neoghborhoods closed. upscale malls in rich neighborhoods are still thriving.

MoonMelon , 6 days ago (edited 6 days ago)

Anecdotal, but I grew up in the heyday of malls and my local mall was one of the largest, and is now one of the most famous dead malls. The mall was in decline when Amazon was still in its infancy, mostly still selling books. Buying clothes online was considered lunacy at the time because there was no fitting rooms to try things on. Still, vacancy was on the rise in the mall and once a few violent crimes started happening inside that was all she wrote. “Big Box” stores like Walmart became more of a draw than driving all the way to the mall.

I think the reasons for the death of the mall are more complex, just like the death of the department store. There were lots of weird tax incentives, both for developers, and for (mostly white) residents fleeing the urban core during the 90s. Those were not sustainable. Malls themselves were a bit of a private equity shell game which couldn’t last. The story of dead malls is more about capitalism and land use policy than just Amazon.

I’ll never forget Forest Fair Mall in those first years though. It’s 1.5 MILLION square feet, and it was absolutely packed, especially during Christmas. Humongous fountains, sand sculptures, live music… every single spot of its airfield-like parking lot was full. The only thing today that I think comes close, if younger people want the experience, is the main concourse of a top ten airport.

eezeebee , 6 days ago

I think the West Edmonton Mall comes pretty close at 5.3 million square feet. I remember seeing dolphins in there.

Bougie_Birdie , 6 days ago

The West Edmonton Mall used to have more submarines than the Canadian navy. I think that was before the dolphins though.

CanadaPlus , 6 days ago

West Ed is still dope. I don’t know about submarines, but they have a 10/10 water park in there, and a bunch of other stuff.

feoh , 6 days ago

I think “malls” in the traditional sense of giant concrete behemoths with nothing but row after row of stored and fast food were killed by online, but if you open up the definition a bit, some are thriving.

Like where I live, it’s an ‘archology’. A mix of residential units on top and commercial on the bottom. All outdoors which is a draw for folks in the forever pandemic world.

OminousOrange , 6 days ago

A mall that’s only random clothes, shoes, and jewellery stores surrounded by an ocean of parking lot is very unattractive.

As you say, a mall with actually useful stores, like grocery, pharmacy, perhaps a restaurant or two (not chain fast food), etc, with residential units on top or very close to constitutes more of a community than a mall and is very likely to be sustainable versus the former.

CanadaPlus , 6 days ago (edited 6 days ago)

Man, I wish that became more of a thing here. I’m good enough at being a weird shut-in without the architecture pushing me to do so.

MonkeMischief , 6 days ago

This is a fascinating question. I don’t think it was just Amazon either. Although the price undercutting definitely helped.

Like many others here, I remember malls having lots of cool smaller shops with various specialties. Toys, books, electronics, games, clothes, decor, whatever. It’s where you’d find more niche things.

Like if “Spencer’s Gifts” wasn’t 99% raunchy sex stuff now. (Although hey, there was that too.)

It was funny in the 90’s watching this idea of teenage girls coming back with a multi-bag haul from a mall run. Ha! Not anymore.

Nowadays though, in my big metropolitan area malls are doing okay, but you get two classes generally:

1. Run down, sketchy malls, with stores that can’t afford to decorate their storefront but they’ll have weird stuff like wall-hanger katanas and other almost-weaponry alongside dragon statues and glass pipes and stuff. Stores like this are punctuated by pushy kiosks that try to sell you snake oil.

These malls are still kinda hanging on. The ones here are trying to do cool things like theaters and experiences. I think it can be a cool place for fledgling businesses to do more experimental stuff. Unfortunately, the said-sketchiness still makes them a bit unappealing to visit.

2. Bougie malls, more numerous here. Every one is a clone because it features the exact same fashion-brand super-empires. And no, your working-class butt isn’t their target audience. Keep moving, because they removed the benches too. Along the way, you will still be harassed by pushy kiosks, but the snake oil is in much fancier packaging!

Each individual suite has like 15 items on display that cost more than the suited foot-aching sales person makes in 6 months before taxes.

I have no idea how these places are still running. Lol

Snapz , 6 days ago

Birthed by and killed by capitalism. Tone deaf retailers charging too much for not enough for too long PLUS general trend to take away “free” public places where regular people can casually gather and kill a few hours having low/no cost fun.

captain_aggravated , 6 days ago

Amazon certainly helped.

The stagnation of several anchor stores like Sears also helped. Sears was in serious decline well before Amazon became a major player in the market.

ocassionallyaduck , 6 days ago

I long for third spaces.

The mall is an ouroboros that demands I spend. But if it had a park combined with it, if it was just a series of semi-connected strip malls around a central or spread out park/walking path I’d be there constantly.

The mall just isn’t a enjoyable place to hang out unless you truly have no other choice, and even teenagers who don’t are opting to hang online because it’s less expensive and doesn’t require transit.

spongebue , 6 days ago (edited 6 days ago)

Yes! I’m amazed at how few responses here bring up the lack of attraction in a mall. Nearly every square foot has been given up for dumb kiosks for cell phone cases or something like that. There’s just nothing to give some warm fuzzies about visiting - a water feature, a kids play area… Heck, I grew up near the first indoor mall and at one point they had a giant parakeet cage. If one landed on your finger, you could keep the bird.

OhmsLawn , 6 days ago

City Beautiful made a video video on the subject.

youtu.be/mEBQPpSHQME?si=e83xmwAgiGDNL13a

return2ozma OP , 6 days ago

Great video thank you!

systemglitch , 6 days ago

I think it is safe to say, the internet i general killed malls as people stopped leaving their homes the way they used to in general.

Roopappy , 6 days ago

My favorite stores in the mall in the 80s and early 90s were the Electronics Boutique, Waldenbooks, Tape World or Sam Goody, and Sharper Image. None of those thing exist anymore. When I go to the mall now, it’s 90% clothes and jewelry, and I’m just not that interested in it.

My kids like the rock/skate shops like B&C, Hot Topic, Zumiez, Vans… but it’s still just basically clothes.

5in1k , 6 days ago

When I was a teenager the local mall made it quite clear that they didn’t want teenagers in the mall. I think it just stuck for a lot of us.

nondescripthandle , 6 days ago

The mall near me used to be a place where kids could get together even if they didn’t have money to spend all day buying things. They made a rule that young people in groups of more than 3 would be treated like a gang. I have no sympathy for them losing patrons.

cerement , 6 days ago

Amazon did more for killing off small businesses – the big box store chains did more for killing off shopping malls (their preference is the strip mall where they can showcase their entire frontage (and do an end-run around building codes))

and yes, everyone is too broke on top of everything else

otp , 6 days ago

I remember hearing that big box stores killed malls. I thought they killed malls, and Amazon killed big box stores, but Amazon can also kill malls, so it was a bit of a double-whammy for malls

someguy3 , 6 days ago (edited 6 days ago)

What killed the mall:

• It was an experiment on the 3rd place (read up on it) and it failed at that.
• Big box retailers wanted big, huge, gigantic stores. So they left malls to open them.
• Being surrounded by parking structures doesn’t look appealing.
• High rent for mall space.
• Amazon.
• *Other entertainment options are much better now with streaming tv, video games, etc.

QuarterSwede , 6 days ago

Big box retailers want to own the property they’re on. Most of the time they own the property any other shops are in even in their lot. Big box has a huge realty presence. They out malled the malls in this regard.

treadful , 6 days ago

Being a 3rd place you can’t even walk to because you have to cross those huge parking lots and all the traffic they bring. Not to mention none of them had decent places to actually collect and hang out.

lordnikon , 6 days ago

also a big thing was the rapid openings of malls in the 80s and 90s. honestly they opened too many of them then just kind of limped along as it was too hard to close and Sears kinda funded them till their death.

VirtualOdour , 6 days ago

Also people getting used to group chat and online games with friends, being able to socialize more effectively made activities like the mall pointless.

That’s why when you go to places where people used to hang out to socialise most people are just on their phones, the phone is better.

unknowing8343 , 6 days ago

I sincerely hope that you don’t think that group chats, online gaming, or phones are “better” than true social life, because there is overwhelming science indicating that those things are making people absolutely miserable… and we actually don’t need science to see it everyday.

otp , 6 days ago

You’re right. At the same time, there are now alternatives that generally don’t require being in places that are trying to get you to spend money just to interact with other people.

drascus , 6 days ago

As someone who lives through the height of the mall era I’m sad to see the go personally. However before online shopping it was sort of a pain in the ass. Not only did you have to go to the mall for clothes shopping sometimes you would have to go to more than one. I remember school clothes shopping would be a multi day affair to buy some jeans and shirts and a pair of shoes. If the mall didn’t have the store you needed you would sometimes have to drive really far to go to that store. If the mall didn’t have what you needed you were sort of SOL. So when online shopping started to provide anything you want in a few clicks it was not just the hard to obtain stuff people bought it was everything else too. But it’s sad so many teenage sagas played out in malls for me. Friendships were solidified and dating occured there. It was a place you could hang out for a few hours with no parents and navigate teenage social life. I am sure teens will just do something else but it holds a special place in my memory.

AceFuzzLord , 6 days ago

I’d like to think it was a combination of all the online shopping sites for all your non-groceries that started killing them off.

Why go to a mall to buy that hat you always wanted when it’s not only available online on the website of wherever you are planning to go but could be cheaper? That, or just buy it on Am*zon.

That, and I firmly believe people in various first world countries have gotten lazy enough that they’ll gladly wait the however long it takes for something to arrive by mail, but spending the time to have to drive somewhere and walk from the parking lot to wherever in the mall the store they want is? Haell Nah! Combine that with inflation (meaning higher gas prices) and you have people not going to malls unless they have to.

It’s why surviving US malls usually have something to keep them alive to attract people anymore, I swear. Some sort of gimmick like that one well known mall with the amusement park in it or how the mall near where I live has an aquarium in it (never been, so I don’t know how effective it is at attracting people). I don’t think the restaurants you’ll find in malls are even enough to attract enough people keep malls afloat, either, but I could be dead wrong about that one.