Considering the weak and precarious position of Benjamin Netanyahu. And the genocidal extremists that he represents. And his despotic ambitions. I know which one I’m betting on.
The USA didn’t ignore it, poorly thought out government regulations that didn’t allow US intelligence agencies to share information between each other caused it.
No, bush 2 ignored it. There were reports something was going to happen. The sharing of information was justification for the patriot act.
He then fabricated weapons of mass destruction to fan the flames for iraq. The other countries intelligence agency said it was bullshit, but we were told ours were more smarter.
Freedom fries were our measured response to the French being correct in their intelligence assessments.
It would make sense for Netenyahu to want something big and despicable enough to wage total war against Palestine. Israel has been slow rolling invasion and genocide for decades. It's definitely a conspiracy theory since there's no real proof yet but I element be surprised.
Not necessarily, just not fucking stupid enough to say otherwise while his own country is also fighting a defensive war against what might be considered russian terror. 101 public relations
His own country could also be considered to fight against illegal occupants violating their territorial integrity. I really feel like you got the sides switched on this one, chief.
Im not sure what this is trying to say. Obviously the Ukraine is fighting a defensive war, which I rephrased a bit so the statement regarding Israel might fit on their situation as well. What sides did I get supposedly switched here?
Palestinians are fighting a defensive war against the occupation of their territory that has been steadily progressing since 1948.
Ukrainians are (reportedly) fighting a defensive war against the occupation of their territory. (I would dispute that fact somewhat, but that s a whole another can of worms).
That’s the reason for me saying you got the sides switched.
I read like like he can’t say that Ukranians vs Russians is like Palestinians vs Israelis because if he did it, he would be losing military support from several countries for his defense of Ukraine (namelly the US, where there is a massive and well-entrenched pro-Israel lobby which would quite likely fuck up any further funding and military help from the US to Ukraine), so he has to choose his words and say what’s best for Ukraine.
For the good of Ukraine there is really only one thing he can say, and that’s what he said.
Yes, I can fully agree with that. However, with these and other incidents by now, can we stop acting like Zelensky possesses some kind of intrinsic moral high ground? He’s doing his best to secure further military and economic support for the war, and he’s implicitly or openly supporting genocidal regimes in order to do so. As you said, he’s trying to achieve his goals through whatever means are necessary. I’m just tired of pretending that he’s some sort of saint.
I also take issue with your implication that further arms deals and military funding = best for Ukraine. I really cannot see a world where continuing to fight on (with no clear end in sight) is better than making territorial concessions and beginning to rebuild the wrecked nation.
The solution of territorial concessions was the one tried between Ukraine and Russia after the latter took over Ukranian territory in the form of Crimea and the occupation of part of the Dombas by proxy forces, and the result was, some years later, a new and far more aggressive and deadly invasion by Russia to get more territory.
Add to that the very openly repeated desires of the russian leadership - to conquer Ukraine and beyond - and it’s not in any way form or shape logic to assume that repeating the very same “solution” of territorial concessions to Russia and the exact same leadership would result in anything but a new attempt by Russia in a few years - after they had time to rebuilt their military power - to take over Ukraine, destroying all that “rebuilding of the wrecked nation” you claim your “peace through concessions” would yield.
Your suggestion would make sense at the time of the Crimean invasion and in fact was what was done back then, but given that now we have seen that the result over the medium/long term of giving such concessions to Russia is more and more deadly invasions by them, trying it again at this moment and with the knowledge of the results of that from last time around, and expecting a different result, is the very definition of Insanity.
You want to trade the current situation conquered by Ukranians at great cost, of a limited front were 2 armies fight each other and thus the death and destruction happens almost entirely there and almost entirelly between military forces, for a future replay of massacres of civilians like the ones the Russians did in Bucha, Irpin and Melitopol when the Ukranian military was not yet in a position to stop them.
Given all that has been going on since 2014 and especially all that the Russian leadership did and said since this invasion started, such a “territorial concession to Russia” suggestion is at best insane or idiotic, and quite possibly just plain evil.
And I haven’t even gone into the Morality of rewarding mass murder with land, and I’m not so sure “insanity” or “idiocy” explain wanting a mass murderer to be rewarded for it.
For him to point out the similarity of being faced with a much large occupier nation than themselves between the position of Ukranians and Palestinians, would pretty much guarantee the end of US military support to Ukraine as the US Congress has several “Friends of other country” groups of parliamentarians (how exactly is being in the parliament of one country defending the interests of a different country not treason?) for various countries, the largest of which is “Friends of Israel” and that group probably controls more than enough members of Congress to stop any future funding of military help to Ukraine.
So yeah, Zelenswky is doing the correct thing in diplomatic terms for his country, unlike many other politicians who don’t act for the good of their own country.
Also lets not forget Hamas is supported by Iran, who has provided drones to Russia to kill Ukranians for over a year now, so yeah, even if he empathises with the plight of Palestinians that’s a whole different thing from agreeing with Hamas.
Personally, it’s hard to agree with either side when there are very clearly religious motivators. Both sides have done things that are clearly wrong. It’s not about people vs state, or people vs foreign state, it’s always framed as Jewish vs Muslim. It’s hard to imagine a future where each side does not stop until the other is wiped out. It’s hard for people of different religions to live in harmony when the state is so intertwined with religion. Israel gets a lot of international support because at least they have a relatively stable government.
On the Palestinians side, the Hamas isn’t an elected group. It’s an independent terrorist group. People that don’t get recruited, and people that don’t harbor them willingly are innocent.
On the Israelites side, anyone that voted for the governments that commit those atrocities are slightly more guilty in my eyes.
Something this attack has shown is that we interchangeably make geopolitical statements and value judgments – or rather, that there is no distinction between the two in discourse. Talking about how Israel’s far right policies are responsible for this is a geopolitical analysis for instance, but that in no way diminishes value judgments that the murderers are to blame for the murders. I suspect this difference between “how we got here” and “what just happened” is causing a lot of tension and miscommunication.
I genuinely share this view, while also having doubts about it. There’s still much I need to (re-)learn about this conflict, but I think both religions coexisted peacefully in that area for centuries. The current conflict might have much to do with colonialism-like European nations drawing borders in other countries, assigning people to lands, without fully considering who they are and what they want.
Well the Hamas attack was basically Netanjahu’s Reichstag fire. There were huge protests against his judicial, unconstitutional power grab, and now there arent. Now, his power is unchallenged and he even has additional wartime powers.
Gotta figure that with the arty and planes bombing Gaza, the Palestinian KIA is the same. So that’s 1200 in a little over 24 hours and counting. Big number.
I’m not sure that will help anything. Some of that land is used for defensive purposes. The normalization agreements with Saudi Arabia, now delayed due to this stupidity, did have provisions for turning land back to Palestinian control. It didn’t seem to make much difference to Hamas.
Hamas is funded and armed by Iran. Iranian leadership really doesn’t want Saudi Arabia to make a formal normalisation agreement with Israel. Hamas leadership is dedicated to maintaining the wealth they gain from being Iranian proxies. The rest of Hamas is dedicated to destroying Israel.
Hamas is also fighting Fatah for control of the West Bank and the Palestinian Authority government. The worse things are for residents of the West Bank, the better it is for Hamas.
So it’s in Hamas’ interests, both as proxies for Iran and for their own in the West Bank, to do everything they can to force the Arab world to choose sides and scupper every normalisation agreement, especially the big daddy Saudi one.
You realize the attacks are coming from Gaza where Israel did pull out, and then the people immediately elected a terrorist group to lead the country. That group then put the destruction of Israel as one of their main platforms.
I mean if anything this is showing why Israel doesn’t withdraw from the West Bank.
the sheer number of Israeli civilian fatalities is staggering. so far the best count only has 80 or so of the dead being military or police and so the rest of the 600 and counting are presumably civilians.
This could see tens of thousands dead, 90% of which will be Palestinian and most of whom had nothing to do with the attacks. It could also be the last hurrah for Hamas.
I honestly don’t understand this one, and I used to do this for a living. Terrorist attacks frequently make sense. 9/11 successfully engaged the US in a “global war on terror.” It resulted in a massive burning of resources and an engagement lasting far longer than anyone anticipated. It failed in that al Qaeda has effectively been rendered inoperative, there was no pan-Arab or pan-Islamic movement that rose up to strike down the current world order, and the leadership did not generally get to retire to a life of quiet reflection. But at least it was comprehensible.
This is looking more like the equivalent of the Charles Manson Helter Skelter attack, where some psychotic thought he could ignite a national race war with an incomprehensible slaughter.
If it were not so big, I’d think it was a red flag operation. It’s just that stupid and the consequences are just that dire. This is handing Bobo exactly what he needs on a silver platter.
Agree. Near as I can figure the normalization of relations between Saudi and Isreal looked like it was going to come together. Both countries are an enemy to Iran. Iran did this to stop that agreement. Also to consider is…
Who funds Hamas? Iran.
Who funds Iran? Russia
it would certainly be in Russia’s interest to deflect the west’s attention from Ukraine
I am not sure “Russia funds iran”. Yes, they both have developed deeper trade relations since trump cut of Iran more. But so have the relations between iran and China increased.
All of these countries try working together in mutual benefit against the west. But I wouldn’t call any of them puppets of another.
Of course it does, just like any other nation. In this case, the extreme islamists don’t care about geopolitical resources like land or oil. They care about exterminating Jews. Plain and simple. If Hamas had free reign, they would execute every last person on planet earth, including you, unless you converted to Islam. It’s in their ideology–dying in a holy war against non-muslims is the ticket to eternal life. That’s literally what they believe. And because of that, they sew chaos and terror wherever they go.
Clearly the large majority of muslims do not believe this way. But the extremists do, and that’s how history is made. The peaceful, normal civilians who’d rather just live their lives, aren’t the decision makers. And of course this all traces back to a long series of stupid decisions and badly drawn maps after the world wars. But make no mistake, Hamas is no different than Nazi Germany in their desire to exterminate Jews, and eventually they will need to be dealt with in exactly the same way.
Exactly. No issues with moderates, but moderates aren’t the ones suicide-bombing and throwing suspected gays off the top of buildings. An Islamic society creates safe spaces for the extremists, and the extremists will do whatever they can to take power.
Other Muslims are the ones targeted most by Islamist extremists. It’s in the Muslims’ best interest that they be kept a minority and out of power. There is insurmountable evidence that when the majority is Muslim, life gets worse for everyone, women’s rights are stripped away, and freedom of thought and religion is gone.
Quite similar to how if Scientology became mainstream we would all be worse off.
There is insurmountable evidence that when the majority is Muslim, life gets worse for everyone, women’s rights are stripped away, and freedom of thought and religion is gone.
Quite similar to how if Scientology became mainstream we would all be worse off.
The last sentence hints both might have a common cause whis is not “being Muslim”. I think it might be “being extremist”. The opposite would be a pluralist society, which embraces diversity and encourages respectful coexistence and exchange.
This then also includes the rise of right-wing populists in democracies all over the world, with exactly the same consequences as you said.
My friend, these anti-Israel zealots won’t be happy unless Israel just rolls over and lets Hamas kill Jews without consequence.
The anti-Israel crowd thinkd Israel is the devil of it fights back.
They think Israel is the devil, if, as you mentioned, they call buildings ahead of time, and give people time to evacuate, before Israel bombs terrorist. Headquarters, because I guess they think Palestinian buildings are more important than Israeli lives.
They think Israel is the devil if they build a security fence to keep our suicide bombers.
Mostly they think Israel is the devil because Israel offered the most general peace deal in history, but refuse to give Palestinian’s the Right of Return, which would have allowed Palestinians to claim voting rights, and literally vote to turn Israel into an anti-Jewish theocracy.
Now… Most of the people HERE haven’t the foggiest clue about any of that. And if you talked them through the situation and the options, they’d understand that Israel does not now, nor have they ever had a partner on the Palestinian side with which to make peace. They want Israel gone, full stop. And you can’t make peace with people who believe in literally no situations in which you still exist at the end.
Israel, on the other hand has showed throughout it’s history that it will do extraordinary things for peace. They gave up land for peace with Egypt. They have offered extraordinary concessions.
But the people who really needed to read this downvoted me in the first paragraph and are already typing a rant.
yup precisely. well, im with you, and so is more than 50% of the internet i think lemmy.world world news sub seems to have a particularly high proportion of 23 year old basement dwellers who’ve never suffered a day in their lives
Yeah it kinda dehumanization tactic, but on the other hand people are one of the animal species. I would rather say those are brainwashed individuals coming from shithole society which are beyond help and do not deserve any mercy.
Everybody already saw what they do to innocent civilians, especially women and children. Those people are pure human diarrhea and should be treated like one.
Ah yes that changes the situation completely. Show this to the raped women, children and their families please. I think they will understand afterwards and have a closue.
+1 for the mental gymnastics you just performed. You commit a crime and are pardoned by pointing on a bigger one.
No one is pardoning crimes except those funding and supporting Israel. Israel has literally never been punished for its crimes. Palestine has been punished for its crimes 1000x over, they have also been punished for non-crimes, for talking, for praying, for procreating, for eating, for drinking, for sleeping, for compromising, for negotiating, for asking for help, for not asking for help, and for existing.
No one is saying that the crimes against innocent Israelis is the goal nor the method of liberation. But we are all more than willing to allow those crimes to occur in the process of liberating Palestine because despite the depravity of those crimes, they are still less depraved, less numerous, and less systematized than the crimes of Israel. We acknowledge that these sorts of crimes happen in all wars and have always happened in all wars for the last 2000 years or more. But that which perpetuates the state of the world, the state of the world where these crimes are committed by the dominant hegemons and their junior partners, is always going to be orders of magnitude worse than that which seeks to end this state of the world. It will always be preferable for violence to be used towards the aims of ending the North Atlantic dominance over the world than to use violence to perpetuate it. It will always be preferable to use violence to end capitalism then it will be to use violence to continue it.
The decades of violence against Palestinians is multiple times over more violent than anything Palestine could do to Israelis in the next year, even if they committed these crimes every day for a year, because a year is just not enough time to catch up to the amount of violence the Israelis have meted out to the Palestinians.
So, we mourn the suffering of all Innocents, but we cheer the cause of liberation, because we know that through this struggle, net violence will be reduced and the root causes of violence will be dealt a significant blow.
My twisted view of the world? There are rules to debating whether you like it or not. It’s clear you don’t want to actually debate and just want to criticize anyone who speaks against you. Perhaps take some time to understand why you hold the beliefs you do, and why others would hold the beliefs they do. Going around spouting your opinion without being able to back up why you have that opinion with sources will not win anyone to your side. Good luck IRL dude.
That’s really rich, implicitly claiming that civilians are a valid target for one side, but not the other, and that this is somehow not a political distinction. But I’m happy to state it outright: Hamas needs to be held to account, as does the government of Israel. It is not acceptable to target civilians, for anybody. It is Israel doing so now, and must be stopped.
Believe it or not, it is possible to publicly defend Ukraine, be against the long-standing brutality that Israel has dealt to Palestinians, and also be horrified about the thousands of years of injustice that Jews have faced in history.
and also be horrified about the thousands of years of injustice that Jews have faced in history
Yes you can. And at the same time you can also condemn the illegal territorial anexations of palestinian territory by Israel. I’m part jewish myself and I don’t support that crap. Just respect the internationally recognized borders and please, stop committing human rights violations (ON BOTH SIDES)
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
You’d imagine that support for revolutionaries seeking self-determination would be stronger in the West given the origins of the modern American and French state.
KInda blows me away how people don’t acknowledge the overt genocidality of Israel’s position towards Palestine. Just call them rats, Yoav Gallant, we all know that’s what you mean. People all over social media are celebrating the actual ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
And after everything since the Nakba, we’re supposed to be surprised that the political situation in Gaza has deteriorated to the point where the government is just a pack of terrorists. We’re supposed to be confused as to how that could happen.
The attack by Hamas is chilling, but punishing all Gazans for what their government has done is collective punishment, and also presupposes a lot of things (ie, “they voted for Hamas” – 44% of the electorate voted for Hamas, which means 56%, the actual majority, voted against Hamas, and they voted once, 17 years ago, so really, less than half of the electorate ever approved Hamas, but also, collective punishment is a war crime)
It seems likely Israel will succeed in clearing Gaza, because they’ve had the upper hand here and have since they stole the entire country at gunpoint with UN backing. This is depressing, but I don’t see how massacres will help anything. If anything, further violence just seems to play into Israel’s hand.
EDIT: it’s been 17 years, not 13, since the last elections in Gaza
EDIT: Corrected typo, this was early in the day for me sorry everybody, also fixed slightly incorrect info re elections, admittedly not the most up to date on the current situation over there, but at this point I believe the info in my post is at least overall correct
Mahmoud Abbas, president of Palestine and head of Fatah, was the one to suspend both legislative and presidential elections and not Hamas. In fact, the latter “strongly opposed the decision to call off elections” (npr.org).
Abbas’ party has been working closely with the Israeli authorities. His excuse was that “Israel refused to commit to allowing Palestinians to vote in Israeli-occupied East Jerusalem” (npr.org).
Some (quite convincingly) hypothesise that the suspension of the elections was aimed at preserving his presidency and salvage “his fractured Fatah party [which] was expected to suffer another embarrassing defeat to Hamas.” (apnews.com).
How can one expect the people to not fight if democracy can’t be exercised freely?
Thanks for the updates, I wasn’t aware there had been scotched election plans in the last few years. I follow various global situations but Israel-Palestine is so hopeless it’s honestly hard to keep up with. It’s worth noting Hamas has also scotched attempts to hold elections since 2006. Interesting to note they called for municipal elections 10 days ago and apparently intended to discuss with the PA such elections at the same time as they were planning an actual massacre whose only strategic merits I have even heard suggested are “Israel’s response will galvanize Gaza against Israel,” except I’m not sure what iron resolve does against a military with IDF’s resources and lack of restraint.
Anyways, they can fight if they think it will help, but given how more or less every single armed conflict has panned out ultimately in Israel’s favor, I’d question if in their case going even harder and massacring civilians even harder is really going to help anything.
Since legislative/presidential elections haven’t actually been held since 2006, we can’t really know if the 44% of the vote (in a vote which had 76% turnout, so really, about 33% of all eligible voters, similar democratic mandates as GW Bush or Trump) would even still support Hamas today, so it’s a little generous to say Hamas massacring civilians is the same as “The Palestinian people fighting”
Yeah, more death and misery for civilians. That will totally show the people why not to support the only ones fighting for them, even if it's a fucking terrorist group like Hamas. Just like Dehousing worked against Germany in WW2, shooting Ukrainian schools and kindergardens works in Ukraine today, and more than a dozen similiar examples in between those two totally worked...
Downvote me all you want, but what the fuck does anyone expect from a beaten and caged dog other than for it to lash out? If I was raised in Palistine I would probably feel the same way they do, completely lost and broken and that this is their only hope left to make a stance.
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