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Zelensky: Israel has ‘indisputable’ right to defend itself from terror

Ukraine’s Jewish president says world must stand united against terror as Hamas launches deadly surprise assault

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, whose country is fending off a Russian invasion, said Saturday that Israel had an unquestionable right to defend itself from attacks from Palestinian terrorists.

The Hamas terror group launched an unprecedented assault on Israel in the morning, firing thousands of rockets, sending gunmen into Israeli communities and military bases by land, sea and air, killing at least 200 people, injuring over 1,400, and taking hostages.

“Israel’s right to defense is indisputable,” Zelensky, who is Jewish, said on Telegram.

febra ,

I mean he does need those israeli anti missile shields so I get where he’s coming from. But this is straight up hilarious. Israel is occupying Palestinian terriroties ilegally just like Russia is doing in Ukraine.

fruitleatherpostcard ,

Believe it or not, it is possible to publicly defend Ukraine, be against the long-standing brutality that Israel has dealt to Palestinians, and also be horrified about the thousands of years of injustice that Jews have faced in history.

Spzi ,

Certainly, being that is possible. Acting on it is harder. Acting on it without being ripped to pieces by at least someone might be impossible.

GenesisJones ,

Nuanced political discourse will not be tolerated on the Internet.

NightAuthor ,

It seems half decent on tildes

febra ,

and also be horrified about the thousands of years of injustice that Jews have faced in history

Yes you can. And at the same time you can also condemn the illegal territorial anexations of palestinian territory by Israel. I’m part jewish myself and I don’t support that crap. Just respect the internationally recognized borders and please, stop committing human rights violations (ON BOTH SIDES)

Shardikprime ,

Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:

“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.

To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.

The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.

Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?

This isn’t good-faith criticism.

These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why

stifle867 ,

Personally, it’s hard to agree with either side when there are very clearly religious motivators. Both sides have done things that are clearly wrong. It’s not about people vs state, or people vs foreign state, it’s always framed as Jewish vs Muslim. It’s hard to imagine a future where each side does not stop until the other is wiped out. It’s hard for people of different religions to live in harmony when the state is so intertwined with religion. Israel gets a lot of international support because at least they have a relatively stable government.

jochem ,

It’s also hard to imagine people will live in harmony when one side literally enforces an apartheid regime on the other side.

stifle867 ,

Agreed, but again, both sides are not innocent here.

Yawnder ,

The civilians in both sides are not equal imo.

On the Palestinians side, the Hamas isn’t an elected group. It’s an independent terrorist group. People that don’t get recruited, and people that don’t harbor them willingly are innocent.

On the Israelites side, anyone that voted for the governments that commit those atrocities are slightly more guilty in my eyes.

Tenniswaffles ,

Guilty enough to deserve death?

Yawnder ,

Absolutely not. I’m not saying that what’s the Hamas is doing is fine. I’m just calling out the hypocrisy of the whole situation.

assassin_aragorn ,

Something this attack has shown is that we interchangeably make geopolitical statements and value judgments – or rather, that there is no distinction between the two in discourse. Talking about how Israel’s far right policies are responsible for this is a geopolitical analysis for instance, but that in no way diminishes value judgments that the murderers are to blame for the murders. I suspect this difference between “how we got here” and “what just happened” is causing a lot of tension and miscommunication.

jscummy ,

They seized control later on, but Hamas was elected in 2006. Still though, of course there’s plenty of Palestinians who don’t support Hamas

Spzi ,

I genuinely share this view, while also having doubts about it. There’s still much I need to (re-)learn about this conflict, but I think both religions coexisted peacefully in that area for centuries. The current conflict might have much to do with colonialism-like European nations drawing borders in other countries, assigning people to lands, without fully considering who they are and what they want.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

I thought he was on the right side of history. Looks like he took one big step to the wrong side.

jcit878 ,

Jewish guy defending own country against terrorists makes obvious statement in regards to situation where terrorists are being armed by the same mob the clown army of Russia are being armed by, and you think this makes him on the wrong side of history?

ComradeKhoumrag , (edited )
@ComradeKhoumrag@infosec.pub avatar

Fighting against occupiers is the right side of history

Russia trying to occupy Ukraine is bad

Israel occupying Palestine, forcing the natives into shitty ghettos as they keep stealing land, is also bad

But zelensky has to keep America happy for geopolitical reasons, and America has to keep Israel happy for geopolitical reasons. And so, principle and ideals stop mattering

jcit878 ,

Ukraine isn’t killing Russian civilians at bus stops and music festivals. hamas is. whatever your grievances and “justification”, this makes you a amd anyone who supports this a monster

snek , (edited )
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

But how is Hamas the same as the entirely of Palestine? Ukraine is a country, Hamas is a military group that hasn’t held elections in 16 years.

Also could you explain how exactly this always boils down to Israel VS Hamas and not Israel vs Palestine? Because last time I checked, when you rape, kill, and murder people and keep them in prison with no fair trial and no means of peaceful protest, things will eventually backfire with an extremist group taking over the steering wheel. We have Israel to blame for Hamas. If they had not created such impossible circumstances for Palestinians and especially those in Gaza, no one would have to stand behind an Islamist organization that effectively detached itself of all other Palestinian resistance groups.

jcit878 ,

well that’s just cooker nonsense

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

What does cooker mean?

jcit878 ,

do your own research champ

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Why not just explain the word you are using?

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

If you’re pulling up (or making up) nonsense obscure terms then you have to define them, “champ”.

jcit878 ,

cooked brain buddy.

very common term. not my fault you never heard of it

Default_Defect ,
@Default_Defect@midwest.social avatar

Not THAT common, bucko.

jcit878 ,

sure is sport

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Yes, standing with an apartheid state aggressor and occupier (aka Israel) is standing on the wrong side of history. It adds to the irony that Russia is doing the same to Ukraine.

Being Jewish doesn’t mean it’s acceptable to support Israel’s “right to self defence” which doesn’t mean what you may think it means. We discovered (over several decades) that Israel “defending its borders” means killing and oppressing disproportionately more civilians and children than it does killing “terrorists” and keeping Gazans in an open air prison. In essence, every country has the right to self-defence, this statement is true. However, no county has the right to commit one war crime after the other and get away with it.

jcit878 ,

“get away with it” = “murder a few hundred civilians” in your eyes. what a cooked view

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

How do you mean?

Annoyed_Crabby ,

Tbf to him, there’s a significant difference between taking their own land back between Ukraine and Palestine

When Ukraine fighting back against illegal occupation they didn’t purposely target the civilian while Russian is the indiscriminate one.

Hamas’s goal is to take their land back while also trying to wipe Jew off the map. Them parading a woman’s naked dead body tells it all, they’re as savage as the Israeli that treat Palestinian as sub-human. All far right Muslim across the globe hate Jew because of what Israel does for decades.

If tomorrow Putin suddenly gave back all occupied territories including Crimea, Ukraine will stop. If tomorrow Netanyahu gave back all occupied territories, Hamas will not stop until Israel did not exists.

So yeah, for Ukraine vs Russia, one side is the terrorist. For Palestine vs Israel though, both side is terrorist.

Saprophyte ,
@Saprophyte@lemmy.world avatar

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/77e7839e-10dc-4967-b18c-141f58191554.png

chaogomu ,

Fun fact about that Zionist army in 1948, it was made up of literal terrorist organizations, one of which (the Lehi) wanted to fight alongside the Nazis during WW2 because they hated the British so much.

Hitler said no to their offer of support. But the offer apparently reached his desk. Well, offers. They tried multiple times in 1940 and 1941.

The sort of mind that it took to want to join with the Nazis after Kristallnacht...

One of the Lehi's main activities during the build up to the 1948 war, was to assassinate Jews who they viewed as "traitors" i.e. Jews who cooperated with or were friendly with either the British, or Arabs (Palestinians). Add in a few bombings and the odd mass rape/massacre, and you have one of the bloodiest terrorist organizations of the mid-century.

Anyway, in 1980, all the surviving Lehi members got medals of honor from the Israeli government."for military service towards the establishment of the State of Israel"

Madison420 ,

This, Israel has so effectively white washed the creation to the general public. I’d venture to guess the average American couldn’t point to our tell you when Israel was created.

assassin_aragorn , (edited )

Nor could the average person tell you that in 1948 Israel expanded and took Palestinian land as the result of a war where several Arab nations occupied Palestinian land to attack Israelis.

People would like to believe that their side is blameless, but the truth is that ever since the British partition (which created civil tensions like all other colonial partitions), it has been a tit for tat where Israel has sometimes been at fault and sometimes been the victim.

Edit: Oh boy. It goes back much further than this even.

Madison420 ,

A war that started after they bombed the Palestinian embassy at a civilian hotel killing 91 iirc.

assassin_aragorn ,

Dear God. I’m following the trail of events on Wikipedia and this is absolutely nuts. It just keeps going, and going, and going…

I’ve made it to Russian pogroms of Jews in the 19th century, which seem to have sparked the Zionist goal of a Jewish state, complemented by a preceding Judaism enlightenment era. And then that is all under the geopolitical backdrop of a separatist sultan in the Ottoman Empire and a British thought (helped by evangelical Christianity of course) that they should grow their sphere of influence in that region by growing a Jewish population there.

And that’s just the genesis of the Balfour Declaration and Jewish/Arab enmity!

I’m going to read into the Russian pogroms more, but I suspect the underlying cause of that is increased migration into Russia by Jewish refugees fleeing Muslim oppression in the Ottoman Empire and Christian oppression in Western Europe.

Jesus fucking Christ what a mess. It’ll probably trace back all the way to the Romans in Israel at this rate.

Madison420 ,

Yup it’s voluminous and complex indeed.

assassin_aragorn ,

I will freely admit that I was flippant and incorrect earlier, I apologize. I thought that it was the Balfour Declaration that started everything off, and that some nationalists had convinced them. I assumed it was just like India I guess (although there probably are deeper reasons there too that Jinnah wanted a Muslim state – Modi and his Hindu nationalists are doing a very good job of defending that advocacy).

Turns out the declaration was just a small stepping stone along the way, and it was just one link in a chain of events spanning multiple centuries and nations.

It really makes you wonder what should be done, and even more difficult, what could be done.

stifle867 ,

I’m not taking a side either way on this comment. I would just like to point out that Ukraine claimed their land in 1991 while Israel had theirs since 1948 (according to this image.) If you would argue that Ukraine is Ukraine because they have been since 1991 wouldn’t it be even more fair to say that Israel has been Israel for even longer? If Palestine wants to take back what was theirs pre-1948 why can’t Russia take back what was theirs as recently as 1991?

Coming from someone who is mostly ignorant about Palestine vs Israel politics and happy to be educated!

jochem ,

There are huge differences. One country came into existence due to a federation disintegrating, because its members called for independence. The other country came in existence because an occupier forced it upon the people living there.

There wasn’t also a huge amount of migration involved with Ukraine. People mostly continued their lives when Ukraine became independent. The founding of Israel involved many Jews for all over the world migrating to that area. You can imagine that affects the people already living there.

stifle867 ,

Thank you for taking the time to post a thoughtful response. Can you provide more information on the point that Jewish people migrated from all over the world? Being non-religious, my understanding is that Jewish people were historically always in that area since pre-Jesus times.

I’m just not entirely convinced that migration, in of itself, is enough of an argument against Israel considering UN Human Rights allow for cross-border movement of people. I can definitely understand if the government gets involved with purposefully displacing people who were already there.

Interested to hear your perspective on this issue.

Madison420 ,

There’s been like three or more major calls for “repatriation” ie. colonization the last was iirc 2015ish.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

qfjp ,

To follow up on what the other commenter said, the term “Jew” started as a label for Judahites outside of Judah (part of the historical kingdom of Israel)

www.wikiwand.com/en/Jewish_diaspora

Draedron ,

Because Ukraine does not suppress ethnic russians and does not currently still takes more land.

Shardikprime ,

badly drawn maps are a major culprit. its clear many commenters are young and don’t know the actual history. i’m a bit surprised by just how many pro-hamas posts ive seen. its a little disturbing. read your history. there is very little that the modern state of Israel could have done to prevent any of this. these extremists want total annihilation of israel. what can israel do against terrorists whose stated goal is to participate in a holy war which they believe is their ticket to heaven? it’s an unwinnable conflict. peace talks only work if all sides actually want peace (and just disagree about how to accomplish it) every insane group of extremists across history has had to be dealt with forcefully, at some point, in some way or another, for all of human history. the japanese, germans, soviets, koreans, all needed to be dealt with, and in all cases it required overwhelming force sustained by wide coalitions over many years.

this is no different. if you are young, don’t know the history, and are sitting in your room thinking there is some special concession Israel could give, that would turn this all around, its time to hit the library. The reality is that there isn’t really any land in the area that would work for that. The available land that is compatible with human civilization in that part of the world, is completely full. There is no “amazon” that could be cut down to build new areas for Palestinians to live. It’s a hot, arid, inhospitable part of the world, and civilization is clustered around natural rivers and mountainous locations. There’s no place for anyone to go.

And then there’s the ideology. Even if Israel and some broad coalition decided to invest trillions in some massive infrastructure project to make Gaza the best place in the world to live, the terrorists would still do exactly what they’re doing today. The point you have to understand, is that Hamas does not care about Palestinians. Repeat that to yourself 10x and commit it to your brain forever. Islamic extremists do not care about achieving peaceful cooperation with people of other faiths and ideologies on planet earth. Nor do they even care about their own people.

People in the west are extremely soft and ignorant in some ways. They’ve grown up immersed in a culture of relative stability, judeo-christian ethics, etc. They have no concept that there are people out there who share none of that. They literally don’t care. And the proof is all over twitter. Go watch, let it soak in.

Only a broad coalition with massive force can end this, just like every other time. otherwise its just on an endless cycle.

assassin_aragorn ,

This infographic very conveniently leaves out that 1948 is the result of the Arab Israeli War, where civil war tensions resulted in several Arab nations occupying Palestine to take over Israeli land.

I’m not going to say that Israel shouldn’t have given it back to the Palestinians, but it’s very dishonest to leave out the war and simply say Palestinians were expelled.

ImmortanStalin ,

When Ukraine fighting back against illegal occupation they didn’t purposely target the civilian while Russian is the indiscriminate one.

Eastern Ukrainian civilians and Russian minorities since 2014: Am I a joke to you?

FarceMultiplier ,
@FarceMultiplier@lemmy.ca avatar

If nothing else, Zelensky knows he has to toe the American policy line. I don’t blame him, really. It’s self-protection.

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

He has to pay back the people who got him the presidency, after all.

protovack ,

Of course it does, just like any other nation. In this case, the extreme islamists don’t care about geopolitical resources like land or oil. They care about exterminating Jews. Plain and simple. If Hamas had free reign, they would execute every last person on planet earth, including you, unless you converted to Islam. It’s in their ideology–dying in a holy war against non-muslims is the ticket to eternal life. That’s literally what they believe. And because of that, they sew chaos and terror wherever they go.

Clearly the large majority of muslims do not believe this way. But the extremists do, and that’s how history is made. The peaceful, normal civilians who’d rather just live their lives, aren’t the decision makers. And of course this all traces back to a long series of stupid decisions and badly drawn maps after the world wars. But make no mistake, Hamas is no different than Nazi Germany in their desire to exterminate Jews, and eventually they will need to be dealt with in exactly the same way.

luthis ,

Exactly. No issues with moderates, but moderates aren’t the ones suicide-bombing and throwing suspected gays off the top of buildings. An Islamic society creates safe spaces for the extremists, and the extremists will do whatever they can to take power.

Other Muslims are the ones targeted most by Islamist extremists. It’s in the Muslims’ best interest that they be kept a minority and out of power. There is insurmountable evidence that when the majority is Muslim, life gets worse for everyone, women’s rights are stripped away, and freedom of thought and religion is gone.

Quite similar to how if Scientology became mainstream we would all be worse off.

Spzi ,

There is insurmountable evidence that when the majority is Muslim, life gets worse for everyone, women’s rights are stripped away, and freedom of thought and religion is gone.

Quite similar to how if Scientology became mainstream we would all be worse off.

The last sentence hints both might have a common cause whis is not “being Muslim”. I think it might be “being extremist”. The opposite would be a pluralist society, which embraces diversity and encourages respectful coexistence and exchange.

This then also includes the rise of right-wing populists in democracies all over the world, with exactly the same consequences as you said.

Shardikprime ,

My friend, these anti-Israel zealots won’t be happy unless Israel just rolls over and lets Hamas kill Jews without consequence.

The anti-Israel crowd thinkd Israel is the devil of it fights back.

They think Israel is the devil, if, as you mentioned, they call buildings ahead of time, and give people time to evacuate, before Israel bombs terrorist. Headquarters, because I guess they think Palestinian buildings are more important than Israeli lives.

They think Israel is the devil if they build a security fence to keep our suicide bombers.

Mostly they think Israel is the devil because Israel offered the most general peace deal in history, but refuse to give Palestinian’s the Right of Return, which would have allowed Palestinians to claim voting rights, and literally vote to turn Israel into an anti-Jewish theocracy.

Now… Most of the people HERE haven’t the foggiest clue about any of that. And if you talked them through the situation and the options, they’d understand that Israel does not now, nor have they ever had a partner on the Palestinian side with which to make peace. They want Israel gone, full stop. And you can’t make peace with people who believe in literally no situations in which you still exist at the end.

Israel, on the other hand has showed throughout it’s history that it will do extraordinary things for peace. They gave up land for peace with Egypt. They have offered extraordinary concessions.

But the people who really needed to read this downvoted me in the first paragraph and are already typing a rant.

protovack ,

yup precisely. well, im with you, and so is more than 50% of the internet i think lemmy.world world news sub seems to have a particularly high proportion of 23 year old basement dwellers who’ve never suffered a day in their lives

gmtom ,

And what about palestianians defending themselves form Israeli terror? Or do brown people not get that right?

Or if everything Israel is doing is “defending itself” then maybe we should let Russia “defend itself” against Ukrainian terror?

masterspace ,

It’s a stupid article that didn’t deserve reposting.

Zelensky is obviously going to take Israel’s side, since Israel might actually provide Ukraine with weapons, aid, or intelligence, whereas Hamas will provide Ukraine with nothing and is aligned with Iran who are actively supplying Russia with the drones that are murdering them.

But yeah, from an analagous standpoint, Israel would be Russia who has illegally occupied the land of Palestine, and this is roughly the equivalent of Ukraine striking back at Russia in Russia’s territory, though there certainly seem like far far more civilian casualties than in any of Ukraine’s operations, at the same time Palestinians are also far more desperate and have face decades and decades of oppression, conditions likely to foster extremism.

gmtom , (edited )

Also ukraine has high tech guided munitions and drones. Hamas has incredibly low tech and Inaccurate rockets.

rattboi ,

Immaculate?

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

Their rockets were born without the first sin.

Bernie_Sandals ,
@Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world avatar

Damn is that why ours keep killing kids?

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

It’s why ours do it without remorse. :-(

gmtom ,

*inaccurate.

Side note: how do we live in a world with ChatGPT but still have such awful autocorrect?

NightAuthor ,

Idk I feel like the autocorrect on the iPhone with iOS 17 has gotten much better and apparently it gets even better with time as it learns your words and other aspects of how you wrote.

Ok, I swiped the above as fast as I could without corrections. Only issue is I didn’t put any punctuation, bc I’m not use to typing that way. Usually a two thumbed, tapping typer.

argues_semantics ,

I think you meant to say inaccurate. Immaculate is when you set someone free, particularly of social or legal restrictions.

Spzi ,

There’s another way to spin the analogy, and I believe that’s closer to what Zelensky had in mind.

Both Russia and Hamas target civilian buildings with rockets. Both recently advanced in a military invasion into the sovereign territory of Ukraine / Israel. Both kidnapped and murdered citizencs. So the analogy is Russia / Hamas vs Ukraine / Israel.

I think it’s a bit weird Zelensky would ally with a country which behaves like Russia from his point of view. I agree he probably might still do it, since he needs the weapons. But given this incentive, I think the alternative analogy becomes far more appealing and convincing.

masterspace ,

Eh, that alternative analogy is a worse one though, since it falls apart the minute you look at Israel’s past indiscriminate killing of civilians and current unilateral and internationally condemned occupation of Palestinian territory.

gmtom ,

Both Russia and Hamas target civilian buildings with rockets

Thats disingenuous. While im sure Hamas would have 0 problem with targeting civilians if they could, the reality is their rockers are far too primitive to target much of anything.

Spzi ,

Lol, true. Then let’s rephrase it a bit: They shoot rockets in the expectation to hit civilian buildings, if anything.

jcit878 ,

gunning civilians down during a music festival is “defending themselves” now? God I’m sick of people outright defending literal monsters. IDF and Hamas are both evil organisations. the people being killed on both sides are not. I cannot understand how anyone can sit here and justify killing civilians on any side for any reason.

gmtom ,

Thats kind of my point. Im pointing out the absurdity of claiming Israels actions are “self defence” by comparing them to Hamas’ actions which are just as clearly not self defence.

salvador ,

you won’t believe, but that’s what Russia is doing – preemptively defending itself.

gmtom ,

My dude, for your own sake get a hobby or something. Spending your time being a troll on lemmy is just about the most wasteful thing you can do with you life. When youre old you dont want to look back on your life and realise then how much time you wasted on this nonsense.

salvador ,

You’re my dude, read the history of the war way back to 2014. Read about Donbass. Find other sources.

Can you speak russian, you expert?

gmtom ,

Oh, you’re a bot, thank god, im glad a real person isnt that sad.

salvador ,

Yeah, I am a bot. You aren’t?

sparky_gnome ,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Gingerlegs ,

    Toeing the company line?

    GregorGizeh ,

    Not necessarily, just not fucking stupid enough to say otherwise while his own country is also fighting a defensive war against what might be considered russian terror. 101 public relations

    Adachudud ,

    His own country could also be considered to fight against illegal occupants violating their territorial integrity. I really feel like you got the sides switched on this one, chief.

    GregorGizeh ,

    Im not sure what this is trying to say. Obviously the Ukraine is fighting a defensive war, which I rephrased a bit so the statement regarding Israel might fit on their situation as well. What sides did I get supposedly switched here?

    Adachudud ,

    Palestinians are fighting a defensive war against the occupation of their territory that has been steadily progressing since 1948.

    Ukrainians are (reportedly) fighting a defensive war against the occupation of their territory. (I would dispute that fact somewhat, but that s a whole another can of worms).

    That’s the reason for me saying you got the sides switched.

    Aceticon ,

    I read like like he can’t say that Ukranians vs Russians is like Palestinians vs Israelis because if he did it, he would be losing military support from several countries for his defense of Ukraine (namelly the US, where there is a massive and well-entrenched pro-Israel lobby which would quite likely fuck up any further funding and military help from the US to Ukraine), so he has to choose his words and say what’s best for Ukraine.

    For the good of Ukraine there is really only one thing he can say, and that’s what he said.

    Adachudud ,

    Yes, I can fully agree with that. However, with these and other incidents by now, can we stop acting like Zelensky possesses some kind of intrinsic moral high ground? He’s doing his best to secure further military and economic support for the war, and he’s implicitly or openly supporting genocidal regimes in order to do so. As you said, he’s trying to achieve his goals through whatever means are necessary. I’m just tired of pretending that he’s some sort of saint.

    I also take issue with your implication that further arms deals and military funding = best for Ukraine. I really cannot see a world where continuing to fight on (with no clear end in sight) is better than making territorial concessions and beginning to rebuild the wrecked nation.

    Aceticon , (edited )

    The solution of territorial concessions was the one tried between Ukraine and Russia after the latter took over Ukranian territory in the form of Crimea and the occupation of part of the Dombas by proxy forces, and the result was, some years later, a new and far more aggressive and deadly invasion by Russia to get more territory.

    Add to that the very openly repeated desires of the russian leadership - to conquer Ukraine and beyond - and it’s not in any way form or shape logic to assume that repeating the very same “solution” of territorial concessions to Russia and the exact same leadership would result in anything but a new attempt by Russia in a few years - after they had time to rebuilt their military power - to take over Ukraine, destroying all that “rebuilding of the wrecked nation” you claim your “peace through concessions” would yield.

    Your suggestion would make sense at the time of the Crimean invasion and in fact was what was done back then, but given that now we have seen that the result over the medium/long term of giving such concessions to Russia is more and more deadly invasions by them, trying it again at this moment and with the knowledge of the results of that from last time around, and expecting a different result, is the very definition of Insanity.

    You want to trade the current situation conquered by Ukranians at great cost, of a limited front were 2 armies fight each other and thus the death and destruction happens almost entirely there and almost entirelly between military forces, for a future replay of massacres of civilians like the ones the Russians did in Bucha, Irpin and Melitopol when the Ukranian military was not yet in a position to stop them.

    Given all that has been going on since 2014 and especially all that the Russian leadership did and said since this invasion started, such a “territorial concession to Russia” suggestion is at best insane or idiotic, and quite possibly just plain evil.

    And I haven’t even gone into the Morality of rewarding mass murder with land, and I’m not so sure “insanity” or “idiocy” explain wanting a mass murderer to be rewarded for it.

    assassin_aragorn ,

    Until Ukraine attacks a music festival of civilians in Russia, the analogy really doesn’t work.

    Hamas embodies the part where Russia is wantonly killing civilians.

    Israel’s government embodies both the killing of civilians and illegal occupation.

    Aceticon , (edited )

    For him to point out the similarity of being faced with a much large occupier nation than themselves between the position of Ukranians and Palestinians, would pretty much guarantee the end of US military support to Ukraine as the US Congress has several “Friends of other country” groups of parliamentarians (how exactly is being in the parliament of one country defending the interests of a different country not treason?) for various countries, the largest of which is “Friends of Israel” and that group probably controls more than enough members of Congress to stop any future funding of military help to Ukraine.

    So yeah, Zelenswky is doing the correct thing in diplomatic terms for his country, unlike many other politicians who don’t act for the good of their own country.

    Also lets not forget Hamas is supported by Iran, who has provided drones to Russia to kill Ukranians for over a year now, so yeah, even if he empathises with the plight of Palestinians that’s a whole different thing from agreeing with Hamas.

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