I don’t really understand how the entire ISS could be “end of life cycle.” Aren’t there a bunch of different modules of different ages? And anyway, the oldest modules are 24 years old that is nothing with proper maintenance, there are 50 year old trains still in operation daily.
If a train fails, at worst that will happen is it will stop. When a space station fails, the worst that will happen is everyone inside dies.
In addition, a space station is far more expensive, and it may be simply too expensive to still maintain old technology. Ideally, at some point, one will replace it with a newer, more modern, space station. Which will both be cheaper, and allow more, novel, science to be done. Although I don’t know if there is any plan for that.
I’d like to see a space station with a rotating ring, that generates artificial gravity through centrifugal acceleration.
Sadly enough, the international community is really good at infighting and wasting money, and really bad at coming up with a followup for the ISS :( So China, for all its flaws, will have the biggest functioning space station in LEO at some point. ISS operations have just been extended to 2034, but if we get a single micrometeorite hit in the wrong spot (e.g. Node 2), that’ll put an end to it.
Too many people think that when we spend money on space, that we are literally sending the money into orbit. Almost all of it is going back into the economy and keeping tons of businesses alive.
Space races are good for science. As long as spacex engineers keep Elon at bay, Starship should be able to launch stage biggest station modules in history.
Okay but at least they have their dishes out there for 20+ years. While musk has his starlink for 4 years before self destructing in the atmosphere. Why not fine him for wasting resources and have his dishes last 15-20years
End-of-life satellites must either be deorbited or moved to a graveyard orbit. The issue isn’t about wasted resources - it’s having inert, untrackable debris in an orbit that could be used by others, rendering it useless and dangerous. It’s not an issue for Starlink because they encounter a much greater atmospheric drag compared to most telecommunication satellites, so that issue is fixed with time.
Adding onto what the other commenter said, LEO satellites (the orbit Starlink uses) just don’t have the same operational lifespan as geostationary satellite (the orbit of this Dish Network satellite). They experience a ton more drag because they sit under 1k km, while geostationary are up at 36k km and as such LEO satellites require way more fuel to stay in orbit.
This is not to say 4 years is not on the lower end of LEO satellites which are usually expected to last 7 years, but geostationary satellites are over double the expected life span at 15-20 years. Finally, even though Starlink is more wasteful, their satellites will fall out of orbit pretty damn fast (within a couple years) compared to geostationary satellites (30+ years).
I don’t really get why they got fined when they did the best they could. The satellite was launched 20 years before the law was in effect. It’s not like they knew that in 20 years they would need x amount of fuel (though to be fair, it probably would have been about 150k in extra cost back then)
It’s not like they knew that in 20 years they would need x amount of fuel
Do you think they’re the only ones who launched satellites 20 years ago? They absolutely knew how much fuel they needed and how to properly deorbit without leaving hunks of metal orbiting the earth forever, as evidenced by literally every single other 20+ year old government and satellite operator that is not being fined right now.
Hard agree. If my dumbass can do the math for this in Kerbal Space Program on the back of an envelope, these fucks sure as hell can with entire aerospace engineering teams.
$150k is literally less than an error bar on a line item at a satellite launch company.
Hell they probably operate in Texas or some other state which hates women, in which case $150k is just a female employee getting pregnant and you kicking her out on the curb for a year like Jesus said a good conservative should.
stock tumbles down like a burning fireball of shit
…I’m kinda wondering where bottom is on this. /biz/ on 4chan have been mentioning it as a potential meme stock to join GameStop and Bed Bath and Beyond.
Mine took weeks to get an inspector out, and the local permitting fees were thousands (yes, I called the city and county to verify). Then the utility apparently required their own inspection, which took another month, because their guys kept no-showing.
Depends on the area. They’re trying to force every solar installer here to be a licensed electrician, including the guys who slap the panels.
And our local utility and government inspectors take months to come out to do an inspection. It requires one person from the company to sit at the site all day because you never know when they’re actually going to show up. Or if they’re going to show up.
Our insurance doesn’t even allow our inspectors to climb on the roof. We make sure the electrician doingg the wiring is licensed and has liability insurance, and we inspect the electrical panels when they’re done. The workers don’t even have to be there, and neither does the homeowner if the panel is accessible from the street-side of the fence.
We actually prefer doing inspections without the contractors being there. It keeps them from trying to guide our inspectors away from their fuckups and prevents the contractors from trying to argue. We take pictures of the violations, upload them to the permit, and tell them to fix it.
If they don’t, we eventually arrange it to be fixed by another electrician and file a claim against their insurance.
Because it takes months to get inspectors out, we wanted to do everything we could to avoid having them come out again. A lot of times I’ve saved a job by promising to do a spot fix and having the inspector swing back by later that day, or take pictures/video and send it to them.
We have 2 inspectors for all inspections (commercial and residential for all trades) who are also our building plan reviewers, building official, and City Arborist for one of the fastest-growing cities in the country (about 45k people now), and we can almost always make it next business day. We can do same day most of the time.
Sounds like you’re working in a city that doesn’t know how to manage resources.
21 panels and very simple layout. The longest part was building the frame to hold the panels. Installing the inverters etc. took a little time and our town is a little strict when it cones to construction. This is a very good installer which doesn’t rush things just to move on to the next job.
Here in Canada prices have stayed stubbornly high. It’s the Canadian way.
I have panels that I bought for under $0.50/watt that they were clearing out at the local wholesaler years ago. Haven’t been able to find anything even near that price range since, and I’m an electrician with access to wholesale pricing.
I have found some decent prices recently but they’re all on full pallet lots. So you need to be a business dedicated to solar installs to get a fair price, and those businesses obviously don’t pass the savings on as that’s not the Canadian way.
Batteries are an even worse situation! If you live here and want storage, I hope you like lead-acid.
Not like lately lately, prices were so bad for so long. Got a supplier you could recommend?
I had hoped to start by building a pack for my small car using something like b-grade prismatics or good salvage cells from batteryhookup.com.
Currently running 8kWh of lead-acid which as we know might as well be around 3kWh usable. Going to lithium would really make a car out if it, but the car itself is a weird old thing and not worth much so I don’t want to invest a ton into it.
UK its partly roof size/shape limiting the amount of panels you can get in the optimum location, partly the weather, and partly install costs.
If its going to take me 8 years at least to pay back vs. not having it I am not going to bother. Some people got lucky with lifetime buy back rates for the panels to the grid so they made bank of theirs with 50p a kwh ( and electric was around 24p a kwh to buy from the grid) but those rates got cut to like 4p a kwh, when even a cheap EV tarrif is like 9p a kwh
There are some finance deals available from the likes of Eon but its hardly high end gear, which I think is needed to make the most of the UK roofs and UK sun. Time you start paying interest on it, it becomes an even worse deal.
I would save more money by just having a battery installed and charging it on my EV tarrif overnight.
About a third of the houses in my neighborhood have gone solar. My household was one of the first to do it about five years ago and every time I go for a walk I notice a new one that popped up. Our solar system payment is about half what our electric bill used to be and we make more electricity than we use every month of the year, even with charging a plug-in hybrid car. Far from “no one is going to do it.” I frankly don’t understand why more people don’t do it.
Weird, here we got 11kW solar panels with inverter and 7½ kW battery for USD $12900,-. Installation (starting monday next week) is USD $ 4300,- complete with panels, wiring, inverter and battery including authorized electrician to connect it.
Meaning installation is only a fourth the total price. So clearly the panels are way more expensive, and that is in Denmark, where skilled workers are among the highest paid in Europe. AND on a ceramic tiled roof, which is the most demanding and expensive to have it installed on.
This is a completely new solar panel installation, which should begin next week. so prices are as they are now here.
PS:
For the above prices the hardware needed for installation is included with the panels.But I think that’s standard.
They are not rare. It is the fastest growing energy production mode and is growing faster every year.
Residential installations lag behind the commercial due to installation costs, but they are blowing up as well. I can walk around my neighborhood and see a couple dozen homes with it.
It’s also highly regional. The further south in the northern hemisphere the more common.
Where I live, power companies successfully lobbied to charge a minimum fee to people using a grid-tied system (as opposed to off-grid). So now a bill that might have been lowered to $9.00 will cost the minimum fee of $30.00 (actual example). You might say, that $30.00 is still a very low power bill but how long will it take before that starts going up? They are also lobbying to buy power from homeowners for less than they charge homeowners. This was a huge turn-off for me considering the high cost of installation. When I asked the solar installer about off-grid installations, he said they weren’t allowed to offer those. Not sure why but got the impression it was a government thing and not a company thing. Not sure.
It’s a company thing. Government can’t force you to pay for electricity if you don’t want it.
However off grid setups are more complicated and require a different design philosophy, so most solar companies don’t do them. You have to shop for companies that specialize in off-grid setups.
Is that paying cash for the solar system or financing? Financing can devastate the ROI with interest rates today. I’m looking at as long as 12 year ROI with possibly as short as 7 year ROI if I consider the USA’s federal tax incentives. My slightly southern latitude (a border state with Canada) also likely contributes to slightly higher generation results using the same equipment.
How are the government incentives in Canada? I’m super envious of your great hydro power, my neighbor.
$50k is a pretty large installation, 18kw-22kw I’d guess for solar only (no battery storage). I’m hoping thats only a max of 100% replacement of electricity sourcing (meaning essentially no net grid consumption after you’re installed). What’s the price per KWh for electricity delivered to your door in St Louis? Its gotta be pretty crazy cheap if you’re that large a consumer of electricity and you’re paying in cash with no battery, and still looking at multiple decades of ROI with the US federal tax credit.
I don’t remember the kWh specs and price off hand but a decent portion of the cost was that I’m in a 1.5 story that faces S and have a lot of small roofs rather than one large roof so it’d be a bunch of panels that didn’t have full sun most of the day. Which is true of all hundred houses in my subdivision as well. Basically build of the house made this difficult or impossible
Does that mean a substantial portion of the $50k quoted was setting up lots of panels is many small spaces, (because of the broken up nature of the roof) and that perhaps the system was oversized its electrical capacity because of the assumption that it would only be fractionally efficient because of the substandard angles and shading? I could see that. Certainly roof designs and even large mature trees can make solar unfeasible in those situations…
Maybe, I was so mad I didn’t even get more quotes, I should really do so but I was expecting 10-20 at most and hearing 50 kinda put me off the prospect for a while. Decided to spend effort on other home improvement we could see instead
1800sq ft home, my power bill is a few hundred in the summer, I feel there just isn’t any competition here there only 2-3 companies doing it and they’re all small
It could be that those companies are evil, or perhaps their own prices are just very high because the industry isn’t scaled up in your area. Maybe they have a really hard time hiring equalities installers, and have to ship in parts from far away.
It was like that in California 20 years ago but it has changed enormously. When you drive down the street, how many houses have solar? It’s probably 3 in 10 here. I get nonstop Facebook ads and can name about 10 companies. With this comes lower prices. But there are still cheats out there. Never work with a “no money up front” company unless you only want to enjoy 10% of the benefit of the panels. For some it may be the only option but these companies are shysty as hell.
There almost 0 solar houses here, 1 in a hundred maybe. A few businesses have been doing it lately, I’ve seen 2 gas stations and several schools in the area do it. I’d like to get it done before my backwards ass state makes it illegal or something
In Canada you can get a 40k loan from the federal govt that is 0% interest on a 10 year term for doing green upgrades to your home. My solar generates more in credits than than the cost of the loan over the year. The Greener Homes Program is a bit of a pain to jump through all the hoops but getting thousands off in grants and a 0% loan is worth it.
… I also have eyes, and family in real estate. A tiny house an hour from any town is 1 million. A crack shack that needs to be demolished and rebuilt is 750K.
Maybe you live in Alberta? The place no one wants to be?
Nope in BC in a little city. The cost of houses here is rarely 1 Million. You seem to just want to be mad about things even if you need to exaggerate to be able to stomp your feet like a toddler over it. Since you have some anger over this so I’m gonna bid you a good day since talking to you is pointless when facts don’t matter.
If you are willing to DIY you can cut that number dramatically. Out of curiosity what was the size of the array in that quote and did it include battery storage if so how much chances are that you can cut it by anywhere from 50% to 75% if you’re willing to Simply purchase directly and install yourself. The amount that installers charge is absolutely asinine usually 50% or more of that quote is just the installation which is in the same because it’s not difficult at all. People like to act scared like oh that’ll be difficult or hard or dangerous, it’s extremely simple you’re dealing with DC which is very straightforward everything is very clearly labeled on that equipment and it’s quite simple to do yourself
I can’t think of any One-Stop shop for literally everything, but there is a lot of great material out there both on forums and on YouTube. If you take it one step at a time and look at each individual piece of the installation you’ll be able to find fantastic instructions for all of them fairly easily.
If you are in the US I recommend purchasing from signature solar, they have a lot of great bundles that will both save you some money and get you everything you need. I’d also say they have the best battery storage options, their rack mount batteries and their new wall mount battery are both fantastic and very easy to work with. They also sell solar panels by the pallet which helps you get a nice large array at a good price.
If I had to pick the hardest part it would just be making sure you get the grounding right on the inverter, if you’re not careful it’s pretty easy to end up with a ground Loop which isn’t particularly dangerous but it will cause lots of weird little issues like flickering lights and other annoyances. But it’s fairly easy to correct it it’s usually just a result of people connecting both the input and the output on the inverter as well as bonding the secondary panel to the primary panel which creates a ground loop. The solution is as simple as just don’t connect to the input power ground to the inverter only connect to the output ground so that it has to go through the ground Bond on the panels
It will definitely sound like a lot, but again if you just take each individual piece by itself it’s very straightforward very simple and you’ll be able to get it done while saving an absolute asinine amount of money compared to an installer.
I will warn you that if you try to do gridtie, which is where you’re able to send excess electricity back into the grid. That comes with a lot more red tape and can get a lot more complicated. I personally did an off-grid setup, which still uses the grid as a possible input so if my batteries are dead and there’s no sun out I can still use the power like normal it’s just not capable of sending Excess power back out into the grid so there’s a whole bunch of red tape that I don’t have to worry about.
An off-grid setup with grid power option is still considered a grid tie in my area since it needs a way to prevent backfeeding to the grid. Which is totally doable in several ways, just one additional thing to be aware of.
And as a former solar installer, I also remember looking at signature solar and thinking their kits looked the best.
That doesn’t really make sense, since an off-grid inverter literally cannot backfeed. It’s essentially just a computer UPS on steroids. It accepts the grid as an input that it can pass through but it’s not possible for it to push energy back to the grid.
I mean yes if you decided to hook its output directly up to your Mains panel without separation you would be back feeding. But only for maybe a few minutes at most as you would also destroy your inverter because it has no mechanism to synchronize the output with the mains since it’s not designed to backfeed
I’m not really sure what you are talking about, you need to synchronize both the phase of the power and the frequency. If they differ even slightly you damage your equipment. This is why when running multiple inverters in parallel they require both a Communication cable and a power sharing Cable in order to ensure that they stay perfectly synchronized. Inverters capable of doing grid tie have equipment in them to monitor the mains power and make sure that they stay synchronized with it. Whereas an off-grid inverter does not contain that equipment which is why they are generally cheaper
There are several different possible phases for 120 volt they are not all the same. And while hooking to the mains may be standard practice for something that can grid tie it is not standard practice for an off-grid inverter. You are specifically expected to have a secondary panel specifically for that inverter. The mains power will reach that secondary panel through the inverter when it’s in pass through but the panel should in no way be connected to the mains directly (other than a ground bond between the secondary panel and the mains)
The fact that you say you were a solar installer, but you’re not even aware of something as simple as phases and frequency synchronization is part of the reason I feel like solar installers are wildly overpaid. You’re basically doing the bare minimum without really understanding what it is you’re doing
I mean, the other option is you’re pulling things out of your ass like every other armchair expert on the internet.
There are several different possible phases for 120 volt
Like…no. You get 240v 2p incoming with a split bar. 120v is 120v is 120v. Maybe you’re dealing with 3 phase power but a residential building is not. And I have no idea why you’d have an inverter that outputs 3 phase power in a residential building.
This is a nice little experiment to show you what happens when you try to parallel two inverters that are not synchronized. Just because the voltage matches does not mean they are in the same phase or synced up with their sine waves. You can also just look at the manual for any dedicated off-grid only solar inverter and they will make it very clear that you are not supposed to hook the output up to the mains panel and doing so will void your warranty and damage the unit. But I’m sure that those inverter manufacturers have no idea what they’re talking about /s
You can’t get any of the stuff Will uses in Canada unfortunately, nobody will ship it here. We have overly strict regulations on importing bare lithium cells.
We have overly strict regulations on importing bare lithium cells.
i would kinda get that. since buying batteries from unknown sources could imply a risk hazard. but what about panels and inverters ? those should easily be shipped from ebay or aliexpress. Phone/electronic parts are usually shipped from asia, idk what the exception for solar for.
Well that’s nice but the vast majority of stuff he does is small-scale and there’s very little in the way of installation instruction. Mostly just product reviews.
how much solar generation capacity and battery storage are u seeking ? where i live, a 2kw solar installation without battery (grid-tied system ?) costs about 3k$. system pays itself in 4 years and rest of existence is powered by free energy. want batteries ? a 1kwh costs about 300$. where i live 4kwh/day is more than enough, sometimes 10kwh/day in extreme heat/cold. but i guess american needs could differ (30kwh/day maybe?). to recharge 30kwh batteries, u would need extra solar capacity (maybe 7kwc ?), and that would run at 9k$, add 30kwh batteries ? another 9k$… idk what the 50k CAD are for
We ran for almost 16 months on 4kwh of storage and 4 350w panels. We don’t use it for heat since we live in a forest and burn our own wood in a woodstove, but for everything else we needed it was grand. Total cost was about $4500CAD
Having said that - When the power company offered to extend the grid out here, we took them up on it. So now the 4kwh is more than enough to run the garage and a few outbuildings, while the main tinyhouse is tied to the grid.
Conversely - Our neighbour who has big 2800sqft house spent about 25k to be able to run as if they are in the city.
Not saying any of this to bolster any argument. I just like talking about it :p
totally understandable. i am aware that prices aren’t the same everywhere, thats why i decided to share prices of solar of where i am living. sharing quotes could help one another save on costs, and ur number of 4k CAD is really quite reasonable for 1.4Kw system and a 4Kwh battery (which is really a good bang for the buck, since batteries are the expensive part most of the time) but the user of the comment above me was quoted 40k CAD which is really absurd, but they didnt disclose the specifications of their system yet, so not much to judge. But solar has been really cheap for a while now. 25k CAD for a 260m² house ? maybe their house required too much climate control or they are charging an Ev, u could help assess how much solar they r installing on the roof: 5m² would correspond to 1kw of solar, if they r not installing alot of panels and yet have spent alot of money the rest of it probably went for batteries, among many possibilities…
I am not judging the neighbour at all. He is a great guy with a ton of smarts. My ‘house’ is 420sqft, and his is over 2800. And he doesn’t enjoy the roughing it parts of life as much as I do. I work in tech so to me things like bringing water up from the creek, or cutting my own firewood, are like therapy. But when he comes out here, he wants all the comforts of his city house. And he deserves that.
And as a bonus - I get to see him test different configs and products before I even have to think about them :)
I did it myself. But I cheated… The main storage unit is a bluetti unit. That runs about 80% of our needs. The other 20% comes from a DIY solution. I built in a couple of Rubbermaid tubs with six volt golf cart, batteries in series and an inverter.
i dont live in Canada, but that quote was from a third party solar installation company, that gets a license from the utility company to install a two-way electricity meter to tie the solar system to the grid. and yea those prices have been the same for a year now, if not dropped. a 2kw inverter is about 300$, 400w panel is about 100$*5=500$. meter=60$. the rest (3k$-860$=2140$) are costs of copper wire,breakers, labour and margin. maybe cost of labour in Canada is high, hence the high quote. better install it urself: check Will Prowse on youtube, assembling a solar system is like a lego game
16kw/0.4=38 * 100$= 3800$(usd). 1700$ for a 16kw Growatt inverter. Extra 5k$ for breakers and copper lines etc (total=10500$). Still, idk what the rest of 20k usd are for (40k cad= 30k usd). Yea, seems kinda too much. Is solar having a lobby now ?
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