Just a side note, ActivityPub protocol - the core engine that lets all of fediverse to talk to the rest of the fediverse is… 5 years old. Every feature imaginable is still to be implemented.
For those that are curious, the incomparable Matt Baume has some great videos on YouTube about the series and about Lear. I’m not American, I have no nostalgia for this series and have never seen it, and I still found it fascinating
I am actually really torn about this one, on one hand I had one episode of back pain that lasted nearly a year, swearing up and down the whole time that chiropractors were basically witch doctors and that I would never go to one. However, when I finally caved and went to one he fixed my issue after two sessions. On the other hand, my more recent back pain was not helped after I saw my chiropractor four times. In addition, I work as a nurse and have now seen at least three patients come in with vertebral dissections, essentially a stroke, that occurred literally right after they had seen a chiropractor for neck pain. Anecdotally, I would say it isn’t worth the risk. Had I done physical therapy and used bought a tens unit the first time I’m sure it would have also fixed it without the chiro, but I was lazy
That’s the thing. Chiropractic could be considered a manual treatment which is a therapeutic modality. PTs do manual therapies that are less traumatic and are one component of the musculoskeletal issues that contribute to pain that chiro claims to heal. For most situations of acute back pain they resolve in 4 to 6 weeks so even the ineffective treatments appear to help- it’s just like treatments for the common cold.
I could share anecdotal evidence, and we know what that’s worth. But the idea that they’re all witch doctors rings false. Just as the notion that a certified physical therapist is just dandy.
All told, I’d shy away from chiropractors, especially these days.
The whole chiropractor field is based on the conjuration of a dead guys spirit to learn the techniques required to heal every disease and ailment…so ill go ahead and say every chiro is essentially a witch doctor
The adjustments cause a sympathetic nervous response that produces dopamine and seratonin. They can feel great. That’s documented and undisputed. Also undisputed is that such response is enough to heal certain injuries for certain people. The placebo effect is real. If the patient believes it works, that’s enough sometimes.
The risks of chiropracty out weigh the benefits, IMO.
Someone who knows what they’re doing, and knows the limits of what they can do, can benefit certain physical conditions you may have. But they’re not doctors. They have no prescribing power. A lot of people go there thinking that they can also prescribe them a medication, which is not the case. But there’s no standards for being a chiropractor, so each one is different and some may do little to help you or even hurt you or name you and in some rare cases, kill you
Not only can they not prescribe anything (because they are play doctors not real ones) but they have no access to the medical equipment (other than xrays which can literally only tell you if you have a broken bone) so they have Zero ability to diagnose whats really wrong with you, or your back, or anything really. Its all guesswork for them and the few people on here who say “quackocracked hepped me!!” is the one time they get it right out of 10 or 20 failures.
I’m a radiologist and I too have seen multiple cases of vertebral artery dissections and stroke immediately following chiropractic manipulation. Absolutely no chance I would ever suggest someone see a chiropractor.
This is the entire problem with quackocrackers, they have no ability to diagnose any illness or disease. So people who think they just have a back ache and go to a quackcracker instead of a real dodctor are delaying getting a proper diagnosis, so then if they happen to have something more serious like cancer, they’ll essentially be sacrificing their own life by going to quackocracker instead of finding out whats really wrong.
I’m 100% on board with science and evidence based therapies but I’ve had a similar experience with back pain. I won’t let them manipulate my neck at all though.
I’d say the science is clear: humans don’t understand what makes them sick and they don’t understand why they get better. We value our own anectdotal evidence over actual research almost every time, and we keep making the wrong conclusions. I’d go so far as to say that you can’t be “on board” with both science and with your own conclusions based on anectdotal evidence. It’s one or the other.
It’s because what they’re doing can sometimes provide temporary relief and when it works, it works fast. An underlying cause has made some inflammation, they stretch things out, relieve some pressure in places that shouldn’t have pressure. But they’re not fixing anything, just letting your body get back up to barely functioning until the underlying cause rears it’s head again. Messed up discs are their bread and butter, but they’re just resetting the house of cards you call a back.
Actually fixing the problem is a big, expensive, scary, painful deal and (US) chiros let insurance companies off the hook for a long time.
This is one of those things, like acupuncture, that I will not fault anyone else for engaging in. There’s no hard evidence that they are effective, but if it helps you with your problem (even if it’s all in your head), then it was worth it, was it not?
I know people who have had their lives improved and their mobility restored thanks to chiropractors. I also know one or two who swear they got scammed for years because the pain always comes back really quickly.
I may not personally recommend a chiro to someone as a solution to their back or neck pain, but I won’t discourage them from going if they are considering it.
There’s a difference though. Doctors are trained professionals so when they kill someone it’s by accident (hopefully), but quack doctors are not professionals, when they kill someone it’s 3rd degree murder.
There’s a difference between making stuff up and an unsuccessful medical procedure, but the only way to tell the difference is if the person has a reasonable chance of actually being successful I.e. a medical professional.
That’s why surgeons don’t commit assault. But some random person coming at me with a knife does even if the end result is still my chest cavity being opened up.
I guess my point is that it doesn’t really matter if their practice is backed up by hard science or not if some people still experience tangible benefit from doing it. Is it still a scam if the scammer provided you the product that you paid for?
Like I said, I would never advocate for someone to go see a chiropractor, an acupuncturist, a homeopath, a shaman, or whatever alternative treatments that might be out there over going to a real doctor or therapist, but if they’re already going to one and claiming that it’s working for them, why bother trying to convince them otherwise? You can tell them it’s pseudoscience until the cows come home, they’re not going to be inclined to listen.
This was news to me too not long ago, but acupuncture is legit and used in western medicine. I found this out because a friend of mine in the military received acupuncture to treat his back pain. Like a white dude named Brad that went to med school put 3 or 4 pins in his ear and his back pain was gone for the day.
Acupuncture is quackery too. At the very least it should not be part of any public health service, or insurance policy, and people gullible enough to go for it should have to pay out of their own pocket.
Do you mean the network of collagen fibers and fluid-filled spaces that underlies the skin and surrounds the gut, muscles, and blood vessels? Calling that an “organ” is a ginormous stretch.
It makes up 20% of your body weight, that doesn’t seem inconsequential. It has signaling functions, and that’s just the start of what we know about it. We also discovered it’s how cancer can end up so far away after it’s undergone metastasis.
Ok, I’ll admit that I learned something today - so that’s a win - but did you even read the article you linked?
The researchers are calling this network of fluid-filled spaces an organ—the interstitium. However, this is an unofficial distinction; for a body part to officially become an organ, a consensus would need to develop around the idea as more researchers study it, Theise told Live Science. The presence of these fluid-filled spaces should also be confirmed by other groups, he added."
So, ya know, it’s not being called an organ by anyone but this group of researchers…
I am glad you read it, this subject matter fascinates me.
It’s essentially almost like a new discovery from only 5 years ago. I think we are about to learn much more about the different roles this system (organ) plays.
I am not going to debate about whether some groups have declared it an organ or not. I believe it will be in time anyway.
The research surrounding this is interesting because you have so many people jumping into it that some people are simultaneously saying things like “I think this could be a way cancer moves around the body” and another being like “Yeah, I basically proved that already. I am attempting to figure out how to stop it”
Uh, yeah, having had several accidents resulting in vertebral subluxation or a rotated SI joint that was only corrected and relieved by chiropractors, whoever came up with that conclusion can fuck all the way off.
Thank you for sharing your story! While it’s a great example of anecdotal evidence, the “whoever” that came up with these conclusions are called “scientists” who perform research based on scientific evidence. It’s great that you feel better for having seen a chiropractor, but many do not.
That’s also anecdotal stories, and it’s not my imagination that after attempting numerous other methods, that chiropractors were the only ones who did anything except say to walk it off or offer painkillers. You can fuck off along with those scientists.
By the same logic, all the “real” medical practitioners whose efforts and advice had zero positive effect on those situations are also quacks, or whatever. Fortunately for them, I have more realistic experience and understanding than that.
The only funny part about this to me is that the only advice any “real” medical practitioner gave me that helped any of these situations was to refer me to a chiropractor, after prescribing painkillers to help tolerate it until I could see one.
You must be partially illiterate since I’ve already said I went to doctors, and that I was recommended to see a chiropractor by at least one them, and that I experienced relief and long term correction for multiple accidents. Not just relief, but instant relief, from realigning the vertebrae from a position that created nerve entrapments. The mechanics of chiropractic and how they work is not difficult to understand. If any of these scientists were messed up badly enough to need one, they would also draw different conclusions.
edit: and yes, I do trust my own observations about the presence of pain and its elimination from my own body. I don’t need scientists or doctors to tell me that it didn’t actually happen. I was there.
As far as I’m concerned, you’re the ignorant one here. If you ever need chiropractic and decide not to get it because a group of people told you it’s worthless, I’m fine with it. I don’t have to live with any pain you may suffer from in the future or your decisions how to manage it.
And I’m not sure what you’re wishing me luck on, because due to my decision making, I’m pain free with full mobility, with exception for ringing in the ears, for which there is no cure at the moment, but I do use scientifically based hearing aids that play scientifically based disruption tones that work about 60% of the time, prescribed by my doctors and paid by my medical insurance. And I don’t avoid hospitals or other nonsense you’re projecting. Everything you’ve said is disposable.
Vertebral subluxation isn’t a thing. Chiropractors made it up. You might have had a dislocation, but subluxation is oogy boogy words.
Chiropractors DO have some evidence that they can provide short term, immediate pain relief for back pain. However, physical therapy and exercise after an adjustment is necessary or you have to see a Chiro forever.
Also a PT or DO can do the same kinds of manipulations with an actual medical degree.
edit: and if PTs and DOs are doing the same adjustments, then the adjustments are a legitimate therapy when done correctly, regardless of who is doing them, unless you’re saying PTs and DOs are also illegitimate. Your argument is nonsense.
That is ridiculous characterization of people who go through formal education to learn their craft. You are a fucking idiot.
Apparently 4-7 years of education and clinical practice at an average of $120,000 or more is equivalent to watching a few youtube videos. Only a dumbass would think something like that.
Not to mention that chiropractors are licensed by state medical boards. Get the fuck outta here with that nonsense.
And you’re still completely wrong about subluxation being a made up word. That post from Cleveland Clinic explains the difference to you, and the NIH link goes into thorough descriptions of it.
Hmmm, which should I rely on, Cleveland Clinic and NIH, or some idiot who couldn’t be bothered to look up the big words before saying they aren’t real? Gee, let me think.
But then again, you’re probably not competent enough to read the NIH discussion and understand it.
I also love how the goalposts have been moved from “chiropractic techniques are ineffective and have no value” to “well actually those same techniques are effective and legitimate when done by certain people.” That is hilarious!
What’s sad is that after 25+ years of having these arguments, you knuckleheads haven’t come up with anything original.
Unless you have so much pain that you’re unable to do even the most basic PT exercises, like me. PT did absolutely nothing, and it was $200 out of pocket for each stupid appt.
According to “studies”, everything causes cancer and everything doesn’t cause cancer. Don’t pay too much attention to a wiki that could have easily been “doctored”.
Worked for my ex-wife. 6 treatments and he sent her home, fixed for good. The bad stories may outweigh the good, but let’s not pretend all practitioners are dumbasses.
For people who point to certifications and education, I’ll remind them that plenty of doctors and nurses smoke and are anti-vax. It ain’t a perfect world.
They are not practitioners. They hold no medical degree and you should not trust them with any medical care. Treat them for what they are, glorified back crackers who peddle pseudoscience and may kill you by accident.
I met one of these in an airport bar! He introduced himself as a doctor then when I asked what specialty, he said he’s a chiropractor. “Ohhhh, so not a doctor doctor.”
Somehow, colloquially, we came to only refer to MD’s ( Doctor of Medicine ) as doctors.
A PhD is just a Doctor of Philosophy. A PhD doesn’t make anyone a doctor more so than an MD or a JD. Yes, even a lawyer is a doctor.
Anybody with a doctorate degree is a doctor. And just for fun, all a doctorate means is the highest degree awarded by a graduate school or other approved educational organization. Feel like I’m getting too technical with this so I’m just going to stop writing this comment.
Just because he’s not a Doctor of Medicine doesn’t mean he’s not a doctor. A Doctor of Chiropractic is exactly that, regardless of its questionable merits.
There’s a distinct difference between “I’m Dr. Johnson” and “My name is John and I’m a doctor.”
At least in American English. It’s also very arrogant to introduce yourself as Dr. So and So outside of a professional setting if you’re any kind of doctor.
Not to mention he doubled down and said in Texas he’s a primary care provider that can practice medicine when I pushed back a little. He wasn’t being ambiguous, he saw himself equivalent to a MD.
If you have spinal or neck pain, see a licensed physiotherapist. If you have a toothache, do you go to a toothiologist to have your teeth punched? Or do you go to a doctor of dental medicine?
I mean, if you want to re-shape your nose you can either go to a cosmetic surgeon, or run full speed ahead into a brick wall. Either method would accomplish the mission. One is cheaper, one is more predictable, both are potentially lethal.
PCP is the one who makes referral to other physician specialists, like a pain and rehabilitation medicine physician. the PM&R’s attempt to identify the pain generators through a series of different types of injections sometimes accompanied w/ PT, OT, MT, and possibly chiro.
when those fail (conservative treatment), the Pt is referred to either a neurosurgeon or orthopedic surgeon.
Yeah, the last time I went to a chiropractor for back pain, they also “corrected” my neck which in the past felt good but this time it just immediately pulled a muscle in my neck and left me in pain and barely able to turn my head for weeks.
It’s better now, but I’ll never go back to a chiropractor again because of the risk of making things worse for essentially no benefit.
Also animals, I saw a video of someone doing it to a pit bull and after he cracked the dogs neck the pit gave him the “I’m going to rip your fucking throat out” look.
Thank your pointing this out. It’s not just any stroke too, it’s primarily vertebral/basilar artery distribution strokes. Those supply the brain stem which includes such necessary functions as control of breathing and consciousness. You don’t want a stroke anywhere, but particularly not there.
Some chiropractors might swing back that, you’ve only showed correlation not causation. Well, when we have no clear evidence of chiropractic neck manipulation being helpful for anything, and we have a likely very dangerous correlation, the clinical parsimony is just not there. So no one is going to run that study (give a large amount of people neck manipulation, a large amount of people no neck manipulation, and compare rates of stroke that occur afterwards), it would be very unethical, no institutional review board would ever approve that study as ethical to perform.
And it makes a lot of sense too, the vertebral artery is encased in the neck vertebrae, so violent movements of the neck vertebrae can stretch and tear those arteries. Those tears, called a dissection, can sometimes obstruct blood flow all on their own, but more often create a spot for blood clots to form that then move onward into the brain and basilar artery (since there’s turbulent blood flow and a defect in the smooth artery wall that normally prevents your blood from clotting). So please, no violent neck movements for any reason, chiropractor or otherwise.
This. My friend had a triple stroke shortly after having neck manipulation done by a standin for his usual chiropractor. Luckily he survived, but it has very much opened my eyes to how dangerous it can be.
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