Maybe my vote could have been 2/3 of a white vote? And we could negotiate with women. Maybe they could just tell us who to vote for but not actually do any voting and we could then have a family vote?
That’s pretty much what Lincoln tried to do with his inaugural speech after several states had seceded already. He tried to talk them down and promised that the North would not interfere with their life heavy-handedly but that insurrection was too serious for him to ignore. And then they stormed Fort Sumter and forced his hand. He didn’t even commit to the cause of abolishing slavery until the third year of the war.
Fucking secessionists already attacked Ft. Sumter before abolishing slavery was even a big issue, they just were stupid drunk on power and thought they had a righteous cause. I have a gaming mouse that has been in use longer than the confederacy existed.
The funny thing is that Lincoln pretty much said they could keep their slaves for the sake of keeping the union together. He had made it clear he wanted to abolish slavery, but he wasn’t going to risk the nation over it. He basically opened with an offer to let the south have everything.
The South, however, believed that the day would come where the US would abolish slavery, and they needed to get out before that happened.
Given the South were handed everything they wanted in the default position, no amount of negotiation would have worked.
So what you’re saying is, Trump was Wrong? Holy shit someone needs to tell the Press! Word needs to get out that Trump was wrong about a thing! Nobody will believe it!
I suppose Trump was right… The south could have easily negotiated to get what they wanted. So while the free states could not have negotiated, the slave states absolutely could have. They were just pissy that too many new states were choosing to be free states and they were outnumbered and wanted a country where they weren’t outnumbered on slavery.
Although I hate to attribute anything Trump says to having any sort of “deeper” meaning, I do wonder if there’s a sort of implied threat here, he does tend to talk like a mob boss and tries not to explicitly get himself nailed for things, at least sometimes. Like he’s really saying, “we’re going to have another Civil War if I lose or if you keep coming after me in court, but it doesn’t have to be like that, we can negotiate…” which I feel like others in his camp have floated that idea previously. They assume the multiple felonies that Trump has been indicted for is all political theater meant to put pressure on him and that all he has to do is just leave the race and that will make all his problems go away. He’s trying to use his candidacy more as a bargaining chip, as a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card, while his supporters are ready to tear down American democracy in the name of that orange POS.
That was the thought that occurred to me when I originally said no negotiation. My amendment to the position that it was entirely within the power of the insurrectionists to negotiate was after reconsidering the situation at the time, and amused by extrapolating it to Trump’s current position. Yes, negotiation is possible, so go ahead Trump and make concessions. Oh he didn’t mean a negotiation where he/insurrectionists would have to make any concessions? Well that wouldn’t have been a possibility for the 1860s, and I don’t think it would work now.
They’ll sacrifice their lives for a person who is demonstrably the actual biggest loser in history, and he just gets more loser-y, folks, okay… If any of you are starting to have your memories fade, here’s a quick refresher to read this morning and then copy and send to your aunt karen in Missouri.
0 re-elections won
1 term president
2 times impeached
3 marriages
4 inch lifts in his shoes
5 kids, from 3 different mothers
6 bankruptcies
7 US Capitol police suing him for Jan 6 terrorist insurrection and murder of police
8 trillion + dollars added to the US debt in a single term
9 trump lawyers sanctioned by federal judge for lying in frivolous election fraud lawsuits and ordered to pay defendant’s legal fees
10 years that trump paid $0 in income taxes between 2000 and 2015. ($0 to cops, teachers, roads, prisons, disaster relief, etc)
11 trump associates charged with serious crimes over the past 5 years
12 million votes (the big lie) - trump claims he won the 2020 election by 12 million votes when in reality, he lost by about 7 million votes.
13 of August, 2021 - one of multiple days that trump was supposed to magically become president again according to Qanon and a crack addicted pillow salesman (the two most respected information sources in the gop)
14 year old girl in a youth choir that trump approached in 1992 to say, "Wow! Just think - in a couple years I’ll be dating you."
15 originally confirmed cases of COVID in the US trump said would soon be, “down to close to zero.” followed by, “like a miracle, it will disappear.” - over 1,000,000 Americans have since died of COVID and it continues to kill 4 years later.
16 years old - age of daughter ivanka when she hosted “miss teen” pageant and, according to long time trump associate Noel Casler, "trump called her over in the middle of a rehearsal and had her give him a lap dance while he leered at the crew."
17 known trump and russia investigations from local, state and federal prosecutors
18 gop senators that ignored trump threats / warnings and supported Biden admin’s infrastructure bill.
19 as in COVID19 - trump was verified as the single largest source of disinformation on the virus, with a Cornell study claiming that 38% of the “misinformation conversation” originated with trump
20 the day in January, 2021, when Biden was sworn in despite trump inciting a violent insurrection to stop election verification at the US Capitol.
21 gun salute that trump ordered for himself when he left office after a humiliating defeat, even though he never served in the military, famously called military members “losers” and “suckers” and actively avoided the draft with a cowardly “bone spurs” excuse.
22 date in August, 2021, when Alabama hate rally crowd booed trump for finally saying people should get vaccinated, only after 700,000 Americans have died due mostly to his failure as president
23 as in wrestlemania 23 in 2007 where trump, a cartoon level failure with no other prospects, participated in a fake bet that a proxy wrestler would win a fake fight on his behalf or he would shave his wig and hair plugs off.
24 day in August, 2021, when trump actually filed a lawsuit in Florida court against YouTube, a private company, demanding that they reinstate his YouTube channel like a desperate, irrelevant embarrassment with no platforms left to abuse.
25 plus credible sexual assault allegations against trump, spanning decades and with accusers starting as young as 13 years old at time of assault.
The fact that anyone follows this child trauma-born orangutan is proof to me that humanity is NOT an inherently rational species, and that most people don’t bother putting in effort to think about anything.
This is one that I deal with all the time with the extreme right, the extreme left, the extreme LGBTQ…, the extreme vegans etc.
You have to negotiate!
No, we don’t. Some starting positions are so ridiculous that they leave no room for negotiation. No one is owed a negotiation. Sometimes the answer is, “No.”
EDIT: A couple of pedantic extremist apologists and a small brigade of their friends tried to shout and insult me down. They failed. They weren’t interested in a conversation, just silencing someone whose message they didn’t like. Do you know how I know this? Not a single one of them asked me to explain myself. Not a single one asked me why am extremist is an extremist.
All extremists have a pathological belief that they are somehow superior and that that superiority justified their anti-social behavior. So neo-Nazi extremists have a pathological belief that they are racially superior and that that superiority justifies harassing, intimidating, and threatening people they believe are racially inferior to leave. Vegan extremist believe that they are morally superior and that that moral superiority justifies their harassing, intimidating, and bullying restaurateurs butchers, grocers, farmers, and their customers to change their diets to comply with the extremists beliefs.
So, the (pedantic) details may be different but the underlying pathology is the same.
An extremist is an extremist. They’re all pathological assholes with grandiose delusions.
For example, all extremists resort to pretty insults when their attempts to derail the conversation fail. They also attempt to brigade anyone they don’t agree with into silence but downvotes on Lemmy are completely impotent and leave the extremists flailing pathetically. Extremists are extremists. They have different causes and hate different people but their behaviours are very, very similar and they are very easy to spot.
No dude, this isnt the other guy flailing. You refused to explains your point and instead decided to double down and continue to not explain your point.
Saying extremists are extremists means nothing because extremism can vary from situation to situation. John Brown was certainly an extremist so were the confederates, the difference is that Brown wanted to free people from their shackles while the confederates were the ones putting them on.
Frankly speaking the other guy was making fun of your morally simplistic idea on things and had decided to just make fun of you instead.
Youre worse than the fucking retarded wheraboo who thought a king tiger was better than an Abrams, atleast he put in funnt pictures.
More childish insults. Don’t forget the impotent downvote. That’s really the icing on the flail.
My point was that some opening positions were not worthy of negotiation. The commenter tried to derail the conversion by being pedantic about different types of extremists not being the same. I didn’t bite so he and his limp noodle brigade started downvoting and insulting me. I’m not a weak minded tool so I stayed on message and simply taunted them, as I am now doing you, for being utterly ineffective and impotent.
I’ve been around long enough to know that 10-12 downvotes on every comment in a dead thread with only three participants is a brigade. You can say it isn’t but that doesn’t change that it is and that anyone who looks at it can see that it is.
“The sky is red, millions of people are dying, and we can save them.”
“The sky isn’t red.”
“No, my point was millions of people are dying and we can save them.”
“But the sky isn’t red!”
That is the literal definition of pedantism.
My main point was that some starting points aren’t worth negotiating. I’m sorry that you missed that. It was apparently clear to most readers. That extremists are extremists is a minor, establishing statement and absolutely true. That anyone is arguing that instead of my main point is pedantic.
Here’s the thing…I don’t care what you or anyone else thinks. That’s why your insults are meaningless to me. You want to piss into the wind, go ahead and I’ll just keep mocking you.
I’ll be here if you want to have an actual conversation.
You think it’s clear to most readers, yet ignore the largest evidence contrary to that and instead try to explain it away with conspiratorial thinking, interesting.
I know you don’t ask the question because you didn’t actually want an answer. I answered the question anyway. I could have answered down here in this dead thread but no one would see it. Instead I answered in the original comment.
The word vomit in your last comment didn’t make any sense at all or have anything to do with anything I wrote. I’ll ignore anything that you are any of your circle jerk buddies say unless it’s an actual good faith comment free from insults and logical fallacies that materially advances the conversation.
Negotiate? He’s suggesting things would’ve gone better if we’d agreed to mostly keep slavery but soften it a little in exchange for concessions? Well, that’s horrifying.
That precise negotiation is how we got the civil war, as well as a number of other completely busted, antidemocratic US institutions like the Senate. Making compromises with slavers.
It’s all so bad. The House should have thousands of members to give states proportional representation, but instead Alabama votes count for more than California votes. In turn, this makes the electoral* college unbalanced too in the same way. There’s a huge bias towards rural voting power.
If California had 70million citizens, current district sizes are around 700k. So it would have about 100 districts. It would have about 1/5th of the total electoral college vote.
It’s honestly insane that New York and Cali have purposefully handed over political power to republicans since the 60s.
As I understand it, because every state still has to have at least 1 House member (and thus 1 electoral college vote). Without increasing the size of the House then all that can do is reduce the proportional power of each vote within California. The State itself becomes more powerful, sure, but the votes of citizens within California are worth less and less as the population grows. It’s a really bad system.
Yeah, but it’s not just Wyoming. It’s all the little flyover states all teaming up against big bad California, and using their disproportionate electoral power to do so - it’s the reason we’ve had multiple presidents that lost the electoral college, after all.
Yeah sure they can get 20 extra electoral college votes combined, but California would have 20-30 more itself. California just handed these over to republicans by refusing to build housing for 60 years.
New York has done the same.
We’ve just handed tons of political power over Republicans, who already have a natural advantage.
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