Thanks for making clear that MAGA is in reference to the 1860s. Any Republicans with lots of support speaking out against this? No? Then the message is clear: Vote Blue!
I verified Montana with another website. If you want to know the full list of per capita. Just google it. But all that hate isn’t trapped in the south. Though, I admit that there is more than enough to go around down here.
Right. What I was saying is. Calling the civil war the “war of northern aggression” may make some of the racists that currently live in the northern states upset.
I meant northern as a literal geographic area. Like how Oregon is in the north. As opposed to some arbitrary line like the 31st parallel, or the mason Dixon line.
No, much like I said in my comment. Now, just like then. The racists are everywhere. They are in the north and the south. Trump welcomes racists from all over the US irregardless of geographical location.
Maybe my vote could have been 2/3 of a white vote? And we could negotiate with women. Maybe they could just tell us who to vote for but not actually do any voting and we could then have a family vote?
That’s pretty much what Lincoln tried to do with his inaugural speech after several states had seceded already. He tried to talk them down and promised that the North would not interfere with their life heavy-handedly but that insurrection was too serious for him to ignore. And then they stormed Fort Sumter and forced his hand. He didn’t even commit to the cause of abolishing slavery until the third year of the war.
Fucking secessionists already attacked Ft. Sumter before abolishing slavery was even a big issue, they just were stupid drunk on power and thought they had a righteous cause. I have a gaming mouse that has been in use longer than the confederacy existed.
The funny thing is that Lincoln pretty much said they could keep their slaves for the sake of keeping the union together. He had made it clear he wanted to abolish slavery, but he wasn’t going to risk the nation over it. He basically opened with an offer to let the south have everything.
The South, however, believed that the day would come where the US would abolish slavery, and they needed to get out before that happened.
Given the South were handed everything they wanted in the default position, no amount of negotiation would have worked.
So what you’re saying is, Trump was Wrong? Holy shit someone needs to tell the Press! Word needs to get out that Trump was wrong about a thing! Nobody will believe it!
I suppose Trump was right… The south could have easily negotiated to get what they wanted. So while the free states could not have negotiated, the slave states absolutely could have. They were just pissy that too many new states were choosing to be free states and they were outnumbered and wanted a country where they weren’t outnumbered on slavery.
Although I hate to attribute anything Trump says to having any sort of “deeper” meaning, I do wonder if there’s a sort of implied threat here, he does tend to talk like a mob boss and tries not to explicitly get himself nailed for things, at least sometimes. Like he’s really saying, “we’re going to have another Civil War if I lose or if you keep coming after me in court, but it doesn’t have to be like that, we can negotiate…” which I feel like others in his camp have floated that idea previously. They assume the multiple felonies that Trump has been indicted for is all political theater meant to put pressure on him and that all he has to do is just leave the race and that will make all his problems go away. He’s trying to use his candidacy more as a bargaining chip, as a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card, while his supporters are ready to tear down American democracy in the name of that orange POS.
That was the thought that occurred to me when I originally said no negotiation. My amendment to the position that it was entirely within the power of the insurrectionists to negotiate was after reconsidering the situation at the time, and amused by extrapolating it to Trump’s current position. Yes, negotiation is possible, so go ahead Trump and make concessions. Oh he didn’t mean a negotiation where he/insurrectionists would have to make any concessions? Well that wouldn’t have been a possibility for the 1860s, and I don’t think it would work now.
They’ll sacrifice their lives for a person who is demonstrably the actual biggest loser in history, and he just gets more loser-y, folks, okay… If any of you are starting to have your memories fade, here’s a quick refresher to read this morning and then copy and send to your aunt karen in Missouri.
0 re-elections won
1 term president
2 times impeached
3 marriages
4 inch lifts in his shoes
5 kids, from 3 different mothers
6 bankruptcies
7 US Capitol police suing him for Jan 6 terrorist insurrection and murder of police
8 trillion + dollars added to the US debt in a single term
9 trump lawyers sanctioned by federal judge for lying in frivolous election fraud lawsuits and ordered to pay defendant’s legal fees
10 years that trump paid $0 in income taxes between 2000 and 2015. ($0 to cops, teachers, roads, prisons, disaster relief, etc)
11 trump associates charged with serious crimes over the past 5 years
12 million votes (the big lie) - trump claims he won the 2020 election by 12 million votes when in reality, he lost by about 7 million votes.
13 of August, 2021 - one of multiple days that trump was supposed to magically become president again according to Qanon and a crack addicted pillow salesman (the two most respected information sources in the gop)
14 year old girl in a youth choir that trump approached in 1992 to say, "Wow! Just think - in a couple years I’ll be dating you."
15 originally confirmed cases of COVID in the US trump said would soon be, “down to close to zero.” followed by, “like a miracle, it will disappear.” - over 1,000,000 Americans have since died of COVID and it continues to kill 4 years later.
16 years old - age of daughter ivanka when she hosted “miss teen” pageant and, according to long time trump associate Noel Casler, "trump called her over in the middle of a rehearsal and had her give him a lap dance while he leered at the crew."
17 known trump and russia investigations from local, state and federal prosecutors
18 gop senators that ignored trump threats / warnings and supported Biden admin’s infrastructure bill.
19 as in COVID19 - trump was verified as the single largest source of disinformation on the virus, with a Cornell study claiming that 38% of the “misinformation conversation” originated with trump
20 the day in January, 2021, when Biden was sworn in despite trump inciting a violent insurrection to stop election verification at the US Capitol.
21 gun salute that trump ordered for himself when he left office after a humiliating defeat, even though he never served in the military, famously called military members “losers” and “suckers” and actively avoided the draft with a cowardly “bone spurs” excuse.
22 date in August, 2021, when Alabama hate rally crowd booed trump for finally saying people should get vaccinated, only after 700,000 Americans have died due mostly to his failure as president
23 as in wrestlemania 23 in 2007 where trump, a cartoon level failure with no other prospects, participated in a fake bet that a proxy wrestler would win a fake fight on his behalf or he would shave his wig and hair plugs off.
24 day in August, 2021, when trump actually filed a lawsuit in Florida court against YouTube, a private company, demanding that they reinstate his YouTube channel like a desperate, irrelevant embarrassment with no platforms left to abuse.
25 plus credible sexual assault allegations against trump, spanning decades and with accusers starting as young as 13 years old at time of assault.
The fact that anyone follows this child trauma-born orangutan is proof to me that humanity is NOT an inherently rational species, and that most people don’t bother putting in effort to think about anything.
This is one that I deal with all the time with the extreme right, the extreme left, the extreme LGBTQ…, the extreme vegans etc.
You have to negotiate!
No, we don’t. Some starting positions are so ridiculous that they leave no room for negotiation. No one is owed a negotiation. Sometimes the answer is, “No.”
EDIT: A couple of pedantic extremist apologists and a small brigade of their friends tried to shout and insult me down. They failed. They weren’t interested in a conversation, just silencing someone whose message they didn’t like. Do you know how I know this? Not a single one of them asked me to explain myself. Not a single one asked me why am extremist is an extremist.
All extremists have a pathological belief that they are somehow superior and that that superiority justified their anti-social behavior. So neo-Nazi extremists have a pathological belief that they are racially superior and that that superiority justifies harassing, intimidating, and threatening people they believe are racially inferior to leave. Vegan extremist believe that they are morally superior and that that moral superiority justifies their harassing, intimidating, and bullying restaurateurs butchers, grocers, farmers, and their customers to change their diets to comply with the extremists beliefs.
So, the (pedantic) details may be different but the underlying pathology is the same.
An extremist is an extremist. They’re all pathological assholes with grandiose delusions.
For example, all extremists resort to pretty insults when their attempts to derail the conversation fail. They also attempt to brigade anyone they don’t agree with into silence but downvotes on Lemmy are completely impotent and leave the extremists flailing pathetically. Extremists are extremists. They have different causes and hate different people but their behaviours are very, very similar and they are very easy to spot.
No dude, this isnt the other guy flailing. You refused to explains your point and instead decided to double down and continue to not explain your point.
Saying extremists are extremists means nothing because extremism can vary from situation to situation. John Brown was certainly an extremist so were the confederates, the difference is that Brown wanted to free people from their shackles while the confederates were the ones putting them on.
Frankly speaking the other guy was making fun of your morally simplistic idea on things and had decided to just make fun of you instead.
Youre worse than the fucking retarded wheraboo who thought a king tiger was better than an Abrams, atleast he put in funnt pictures.
More childish insults. Don’t forget the impotent downvote. That’s really the icing on the flail.
My point was that some opening positions were not worthy of negotiation. The commenter tried to derail the conversion by being pedantic about different types of extremists not being the same. I didn’t bite so he and his limp noodle brigade started downvoting and insulting me. I’m not a weak minded tool so I stayed on message and simply taunted them, as I am now doing you, for being utterly ineffective and impotent.
I’ve been around long enough to know that 10-12 downvotes on every comment in a dead thread with only three participants is a brigade. You can say it isn’t but that doesn’t change that it is and that anyone who looks at it can see that it is.
“The sky is red, millions of people are dying, and we can save them.”
“The sky isn’t red.”
“No, my point was millions of people are dying and we can save them.”
“But the sky isn’t red!”
That is the literal definition of pedantism.
My main point was that some starting points aren’t worth negotiating. I’m sorry that you missed that. It was apparently clear to most readers. That extremists are extremists is a minor, establishing statement and absolutely true. That anyone is arguing that instead of my main point is pedantic.
Here’s the thing…I don’t care what you or anyone else thinks. That’s why your insults are meaningless to me. You want to piss into the wind, go ahead and I’ll just keep mocking you.
I’ll be here if you want to have an actual conversation.
You think it’s clear to most readers, yet ignore the largest evidence contrary to that and instead try to explain it away with conspiratorial thinking, interesting.
I know you don’t ask the question because you didn’t actually want an answer. I answered the question anyway. I could have answered down here in this dead thread but no one would see it. Instead I answered in the original comment.
The word vomit in your last comment didn’t make any sense at all or have anything to do with anything I wrote. I’ll ignore anything that you are any of your circle jerk buddies say unless it’s an actual good faith comment free from insults and logical fallacies that materially advances the conversation.
It’s frustrating that historically lost causes based on hatred, like the slavers of the Confederacy or any form of fascism, are never fully punished for what they do. Each time a war ends the history writers make thousands of exceptions for people who were clearly working for their own self interest at the cost of society.
Any time a right wing, conservative cause loses (which is all the time based on history) they need to be burned bad: take away their money and livelihoods and make them reliant on social services.
Would that actually work? How long should the north have kept armies raised and occupied the south to completely root out all bad guys? How long of doing that before you become the bad guys? How would you keep the trials from just becoming witch hunts?
You can’t throw the book at every vague supporter, but you CAN throw it at participants and organizers as a show of what the next guys will get.
People would think twice about insurrection if everyone who J6ed faced charges as enemy combatants instead of the slap on the wrist crap most of them are getting.
There’s a fine line to walk between letting folks off too easy and making it even worse by going scorched earth on them.
If they were treated as enemy combatants with their rights as citizens revoked, then you are likely to inspire more anger and righteousness than fear.
The mindset of those that are receptive to the position of the insurrectionists is that government is undemocratic, corrupt, and authorian against them. It deflates their position when those folks get due process and frequently get off with light sentences. Incidentally, a lot of the key people got 4 to 18 years in prison, hardly a slap on the wrist.
Lots of precedent where any initial offense is forgotten in the wake of an oppressive response. The best results have been where the “victor” exhibits a reasonable response rather than trying to go all in, especially when you are dealing with millions of folks roughly on the side of the guilty.
Sure, but by your logic - the initial offense has happened. An attempt against the government was made. We’ll see how the soft buttpat response goes.
When they do it again - enemy combatants. Full stop. The anger and righteousness is already there, rooted in false narrative nonsense. You can’t buttpat your way out of that. If they get a buttpat, it’s cause the govt knows they’re right, and they’re emboldened. If you throw the book at em it’s cause the govt is against the people and they’re emboldened. They played their hand, and that hand is violence.
Fuck em, hang em all - it’s what they were trying to do, it’s only fitting. No tolerance for the intolerant.
I am a bit concerned that all this ire aimed at the plebes trying to storm the capitol building detracts from the more significant threat. They were trying to influence election officials to ‘come up with votes’ and failing that, forging fake electors into the process and refusing to certify results. The “white collar” attempts to subvert the election are a more significant threat than a bunch of randos trying to break into the capitol building.
But with respect to the people storming the capitol building, as stated, key folks in that got years of prison time. I would consider that more than a “soft buttpat”. Nearly half of participants received at least some prison time.
Oh they should 100% face the same fate. I’d say hang them too but I don’t have the easy line from treason to hanging that I do for people who actively participated in violence.
This whole Democrat shtick of “we can’t say anything bad about Republicans or stop them from fucking everything because it’s undemocratic to be mean to fascists” needs to stop.
If they try to subvert the process, lock them up for life. If their followers get mad and take action a la J6, take them down and take prisoners. They are enemies of this country, it’s time to treat them as such. We’ve tried giving an inch for decades and every time they take a mile.
Oh give me a break with this bullshit. We got almost 100 years of Jim crow because racists and cowards like you were more worried about the feelings of white supremacists than doing the right thing. Reconstruction was working.
If the south hadn’t even seceded, I guarantee you you would still have had those laws happen. The biggest difference would have been the south kept their slaves longer if they never seceded.
Being too weak on human rights was the problem for Jim Crow, not being too weak on rebellion. The hypothetical occupiying armies would have been there to squash rebellion, not try to further elevate rights of the black population.
While more equal rights might have been a more prevailing sentiment in the free states, they didn’t have the will to stand up for those equal rights in states hundreds of miles away. They might have managed to abolish slavery in 12 or so years federally if left to their own devices, but they weren’t going to police the nuance of citizens’ rights in states they knew so little about.
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