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Zaktor

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Zaktor ,

And it’s using people-scale violence less likely to cause civilian casualties. If Israel wanted to just fly drones with guns around Gaza shooting anyone who sets up a rocket on a rooftop, there wouldn’t be nearly the objection. Maybe a little police-state creepy, but clearly about protecting life and the targeted killing of people who wish them harm. And while there may still be some legitimate deadly mistakes, it’s nothing like the expected casualties of razing an entire neighborhood. Yeah, it’s harder than just flattening Gaza city with all their stockpiled missiles, but if your scope of attack is that wide, whatever you claim, you’re not minimizing civilian casualties and likely only loosely pursuing purely military objectives.

Zaktor ,

Fucking great insights rich guy, wars are bad and will affect energy and food prices. Why do newspapers interview the CEO of a bank to talk about non-bank issues? He doesn’t know any more about any of this than anyone else.

Zaktor ,

you might be entitled to wonder how many actually aren’t anti-Semites.

Uh no, that’s racist as fuck.

Zaktor ,

I’ve also heard that some black people in South Africa attacked white people. It’s not racist to think there were racially motivated black terrorist groups. It’s racist to think all black people were terrorists.

You fluidly dance between Hamas, Arab nations, Palestinians, and “Islamic” people as a whole, because that’s how racists take the sins of individuals to justify their prejudice.

Zaktor ,

You still don’t get that extrapolating from “Hamas” to even “Palestinians” is wrong, let alone to Australian Muslims in general.

Zaktor ,

They didn’t say anything of the sort. The context provided elsewhere in this post is that some people were chanting “gas the Jews”. Anti-Semites are taking advantage of protests. That doesn’t mean protesters are anti-Semites.

Zaktor ,

Oh, we’ve done much more disgusting things. Not that supporting ethnic cleansing and war crimes of an apartheid state isn’t disgusting, it’s just that we have such a long resume of atrocious behavior.

Zaktor ,

Most of the major news outlets have picked this up, but their source is just the Hamas government. This at least claims to have talked to someone. Hard to know what’s real, but I’m not sure even what resources the major publications have in Gaza. Seems like a dangerous place to be.

Middle East Eye does have a mostly factual rating from Media Bias Fact Check, with the mostly coming from them not revealing their ownership rather than failing fact checking.

Zaktor ,

And if they don’t, its very likely they’ll just make it unlivable so the people can’t feasibly return The current Israeli government would be quite happy with Gaza City just being empty. That would solve a lot of long term problems with only short term consequences. A final solution to the Palestinian problem, if you would.

Zaktor ,

The West Bank has seen minimal Palestinian-initiated conflict, and in exchange, Israel has built more settlements, let them burn fields, and kicked people out of their homes. It’s not security that drives the settlement projects. They want the land.

Zaktor , (edited )

$12B divided by 3 years divided by 120,000 people is a whopping $3,333 per year to shelter someone. In NYC. That’s less than a lot of people’s monthly rent. (Edit: Wrong math, see below $33k.) And while they may show up without jobs, immigrants generally want to work so they’ll pay back their support in taxes quickly enough.

Mayor Cop-Liar and Governor Could-Barely-Win-New-York-as-a-Democrat just can’t help that centrist impulse to get tough on the wrong people to save a shiny nickel.

Zaktor ,

Yeah, you’re right, I missed a decimal point. $33k is cheap for NYC, but a much more significant cost.

Zaktor ,

People don’t join terrorist groups because they think they can win, they do it because they’re so pissed off at the target they want to strike back.

Zaktor ,

The Israeli government itself says it can’t confirm beheadings. Media and foreign governments, sure, they might just not have access, but Israel has the actual dead, or at least direct access to who could confirm their state.

This all seems to have started with a quote from an IDF guy that they were “butchered”, which seems like something that can telephone along to become “beheaded”, but may have just meant killed without being able to fight back. Which is already plenty bad.

Zaktor ,

Support of Israel is understandable in this context considering the innocent people that were killed.

Innocent people are actively being killed in Gaza as we speak.

What I’m sure of though is that far-right/nazi movements will attack Palestine supporters, probably under cover. We call it “casseurs”, people who are here to break things appart to undermine the event’s credibility. Palestine support is almost left-party only in France.

A leftwing event being attacked shouldn’t undermine the legitimacy of the left. A false flag attack on a pro-Israel demonstration might though.

Zaktor ,

Innocent people are innocent people. You cannot cherry pick who deserves human rights and who doesn’t.

Yes, and by saying supporting Israel was understandable and thus wouldn’t be banned, the implication was that supporting Palestine was not understandable. No one is holding pro-Hamas rallies in France, they’re holding pro-Palestine rallies.

Zaktor ,

What a tortured title.

Zaktor ,

You think there were a lot of Jews in Ukraine because there were anti-Semitic nationalists in Ukraine?

Zaktor ,

Yeah, I think there’s a fertile ground between Netanyahu thinking 1000+ lives and and taking over a day to reestablish control is good for him and thinking “a bunch of rockets, most of which we’ll shoot down and the few which weren’t can be used for political/propaganda purposes”. They probably thought “something big” would be noticeable but manageable.

Zaktor ,

Your SJW account is super banned, which should be visible if you copy and paste the link they posted directly (it’s probably getting converted to your instance where the account isn’t banned). You can comment on LW posts on SJW, but they’ll only be seen locally (and I’ve heard maybe some other servers due to bans not working correctly). LW itself will just drop your posts.

deleted_by_moderator

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    Zaktor ,

    To what end? What sorts of events are more likely to occur if the entire western world decides that these were subhuman attacks and does not taint the condemnation with warnings of retributive death tolls?

    You likened this to someone questioning 9/11 in another comment, and that’s very right. After 9/11 the idea that “the Taliban” did atrocities and urging restraint was offensive led to 20 years of war and hundred of thousands of dead. When war fever is rising, the correct response is to tamp it down, not castigate people for saying “this is terrible, but we shouldn’t slaughter innocent people”.

    Zaktor ,

    You don’t even need to take them out of Gaza. There are 2 million people there and Israel estimated 1000 of them took part in the attack. Decades of oppression turns a tiny sliver into murderous extremists, and yet the whole area gets the retribution.

    Zaktor ,

    Sure. And what does that have to do with not questioning the death of babies Israel is inflicting in response?

    Zaktor ,

    That someone would mention the literal killing of babies by Israel is the whole fucking thing you were objecting to. Sorry to intrude on your righteous war fever with the small issue that the response is literally doing the thing you say is “bad period”.

    OP’s (and my) stance is that killing babies is bad, period. You’re the one who seems unhappy that the tragedy you want to think about is being related to the actual killings or children that are ongoing. They’re both fucking horrible, but you don’t seem to think the Palestinian children are also innocent and deserve to live as well.

    “These are monsters and don’t talk about what we’re doing in response” is the cry of the warmongers lusting for retribution.

    Zaktor ,

    Hamas is an evil terrorist organization. I don’t think anyone here is saying otherwise, and I assume that’s a truth you fully agree with.

    So we all agree, they’re evil. How does that excuse the killing of Palestinian civilians? It would be great if the terrorists thought about the good of their fellow man, but we’ve all recognized that they’re bad guys, so it’s pretty expected they’re not going to do what’s good for their people, but that doesn’t change that a bunch of people who are not Hamas are currently being killed by Israel.

    Zaktor ,

    What whitewashing hogwash. “They made us blow up those buildings!” Israel is very much an active participant in them destroying buildings. These aren’t mistakes and aren’t heading off a clear and present danger, they’re retribution. That Hamas made them rightfully angry doesn’t in any way absolve their responsibility for their own choices.

    Zaktor ,

    So then you say “I condemn those who murdered the babies” not a version of “they had it coming”. Which is what you’re saying if you read this and post “I feel bad for the people who killed them”.

    No one fucking said that. No one here is sympathizing with fucking Hamas despite your best efforts to conflate them with the Palestinian victims. The “innocents that are going to be slaughtered because of this” aren’t the people who killed them.

    Zaktor ,

    Holy fuck, how did you think those Palestinians are dying? Natural causes?

    US says it is talking to Israel about safe passage for Gaza civilians (www.reuters.com)

    The United States is talking to Israeli officials and others about the idea of a safe passage for Gaza civilians after Israel’s air strikes following a deadly Hamas attack over the weekend, the U.S. national security adviser Jake Sullivan said on Tuesday....

    Zaktor ,

    Pull back the Israeli settlers

    Here’s where your plan falls apart. The settlers aren’t a hardline third party causing trouble for the government, they’re part of an intentional Israeli policy. They want them there, for the entire purpose of calling those areas “not Palestine”.

    Zaktor ,

    The settlers aren’t immigrants integrating with the Palestinians. They’re Jewish-only communities following a semi-religious goal to expand the Jewish state, sometimes living in literal stolen homes. They have special roads only they’re allowed to use and are frequently a source of violence against Palestinians, which is then backed up and protected by the military.

    Zaktor ,

    I just think people talking about killing civilians at a music festival being an atrocity (it is!) were probably really quiet about the regular civilian casualties caused by Israel year after year. In 12 years, the UN counted 5,590 deaths. That’s not 5,590 dead terrorists, but people are acting like the atrocities just started now. I’m very much willing to say “what about”, not because it should make people think this one isn’t horrible, but because they really should answer “what about the other ones you ignored”.

    And one doesn’t even need to go backward. Israel’s already racking up civilian casualties, and you can bet there’s going to be some people who want to keep going until the Palestinian number is much higher than the Israeli number.

    Zaktor ,

    And they’re happy to do it. What’s the point of Hamas if neither Israelis nor Palestinians are dying? Both at the same time is their ideal environment.

    Zaktor ,

    Both Netanyahu and Hamas are probably riding a nice high right now. Both of their political positions improve the more people die on both sides.

    Zaktor ,

    Then it sure is strange how they keep doing things that kill civilians. They’re not blowing up buildings because that particular building was especially good for launching rockets. It’s collective punishment optimistically aimed at some sort of regime change, but more likely just to feed domestic bloodlust. It’s certainly not degrading military capabilities. They’re gone well before the missile hits.

    And this is just the direct deadly violence. They knock down houses and light their fields on fire. Those are civilian targets in service of ethnic cleansing, either performed directly by the state or by agents supported and defended by it.

    Zaktor ,

    “Bin Laden determined to strike in US.”

    Zaktor ,

    Is killing 260 innocent civilians at a rave just a “sensational story” for you? You might want to reevaluate your moral compass there, buddy.

    I’m pretty sure Israel is still way ahead. Are their civilian casualties less horrific because it’s people in homes and schools rather than a rave? The only correct moral judgement is that Hamas and the IDF are both committed to evil, and the IDF is just more capable.

    Zaktor ,

    Israel is killing hundreds of civilians right now. How is that not current?

    Zaktor ,

    According to the Abrahamic tradition

    Like I said, fairy tales. According to tradition women were also made from a man’s rib and people lived for hundreds of years. None of that is real.

    Israel formally declares war against Hamas as it battles to push militants off its soil (www.cnn.com)

    Israel formally declared war on Hamas on Sunday, setting the stage for a major military operation in Gaza as fighting rages on Israeli soil. The declaration comes after Hamas, an Islamist militant group, launched a surprise assault this weekend that has so far killed over 600 Israelis....

    Zaktor ,

    With the acknowledgement that the current attacks are mostly along the Gaza border, where do the West Bank settlers fall in that dichotomy? Because they’re not just passive citizens of an oppressive nation, they’re very much a participant in the oppression. And on the other side, military service in Israel is compulsory. There are soldiers who didn’t want to be soldiers and think occupying the West Bank is wrong that are in that set of legitimate targets. Maybe it just sucks to be them and they should have tried harder to pursue a non-military service option, but it’s not an easy sort where uniform = agent of oppression and civilian = neutral third party.

    Zaktor ,

    In the same breath you’re expecting Israel to cause thousands of civilian deaths you talk about how it’s wrong to excuse the actions of monsters. At best we can hope the “kills thousands of civilians” is bundled up in your tidy “I have criticisms”.

    Zaktor ,

    Shit sucks, I get it, but life is a bitch and if you support terrorists you can’t be surprised if the people they attack don’t just bend over and take it up the ass.

    The exact same words could be applied to Israel.

    Zaktor ,

    They’re engaged in terror and are actively engaged in ethnic cleansing. That it’s a slow grind rather than a fast act that would shock the world doesn’t change what it is.

    Zaktor ,

    “The second richest terror organization” is like talking about the second toughest fifth grader when discussing whether a prize fighter needs help in a one on one fight.

    Hamas routinely chooses military spending over social spending. It’s always been their way.

    How is this remotely relevant? It’s like you just scanned for keywords and then remixed them to make an irrelevant comparison.

    Zaktor ,

    Conquerors and colonizers (the British, but it applies to Israel as well) do not have inherent right to rule. No one voted for them to make decisions. Having the power to dominate is not the same thing as having the right to decide what the people they oppress must accept.

    Zaktor ,

    I think you’re far too trusting when Israel says “we destroyed that because it was a clear and present danger”. It’s like the torture justifiers that jump to scenarios about dirty bombs with a ticking clock, when in reality it’s usually just used to see if they can learn something useful. The Israeli armed forces regularly destroy entire buildings for things that have nothing to do with the building itself being an immediate risk to life and limb, and assuming these 300+ people are just unfortunate and unforeseen casualties needed to save lives is giving a benefit of the doubt that isn’t earned.

    How many civilian casualties is the right number so your friend’s house doesn’t get destroyed? 2? 5? 20? And if the problem is rockets fired by people from the roofs of buildings why are they responding by destroying the buildings? They’re no less able to evacuate from a building than the people living in it. Either the guys are gone and will just fire from another building or you know where they’ll be and could use an anti-personnel response. The real reason is that they want to make a statement. And if that statement kills some civilians, that’s ok and maybe even desirable. People would probably be pretty upset if more Israelis died than Palestinians.

    And they’ve made those sorts of statements for decades. None of this is a sad but unavoidable step to create a safe and secure future. It’s just the same old same old, feeding an interminable cycle of death. (And that goes double to the Hamas terrorists who triggered this.)

    Zaktor ,

    LOL. Ain’t no one reading that. Not in a “I read it, but don’t want to work on a response” way, but “I don’t think any opinions you’ve expressed thus far warrant reading a wall of text about ‘how the world really works’”.

    Zaktor ,

    It’s not “blow up building” or “do nothing”.

    Zaktor ,

    Not a bulletproof vest in sight.

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