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nyakojiru ,
@nyakojiru@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

You have pizza delivery, chop suei deliver ….-and weapons delivery. Let the business start!

sxan ,
@sxan@midwest.social avatar

I was having this discussion worth my wife last night.

I’m hoping (but will not be shocked when it proves otherwise) that full-throated endorsement now will mean more effective censure latter when the Netayahu gvmnt begins a more obvious program of genocide.

If the US is reserved now, it weakens later admonishment. I don’t expect it to make a difference. Netanyahu’s brother was killed by Palestinian PFLP–EO militants, and he’s not exactly rational about them. He’s also a friend of Trump’s, and that’s definitely going to play into Biden’s responses.

Incidentally, I’ve heard some Israelis referring to the attack as “their 9/11.” I think that sums up how the current situation is being framed by the Netanyahu government pretty well.

emma , (edited )
@emma@beehaw.org avatar

Israel is such a small country that the percentage of population killed in these attacks is greater than the percentage of the US population killed in 9/11. Everyone knows someone who was killed, kidnapped or injured.

So yeah, 9/11 has some accuracy as a metaphor.

emma ,
@emma@beehaw.org avatar

Proportionally, when the death toll was at 700, that was already EIGHT TIMES the percentage of population as 9/11. In US terms, the equivalent would be 25,000 deaths through terrorism in a single day. (Source: The News Agents podcast)

Six hours ago the death toll was reported as over 1000 in Israel.

Rapidcreek OP ,

Netanyahu is being blamed for the attack by Israelis. I think his self life has run out. But, before that happens Isreal will enter Gaza and it will be punitive.

sxan ,
@sxan@midwest.social avatar

Interesting. I hadn’t heard that. My wife manages an organization with a group in Israel; we’ve only heard the “9/11” comment, and some chatter about the reservists being called up.

Where are you hearing that Israelis are blaming Netanyahu?

Rapidcreek OP ,

I did see a snap poll that indicated that, but can’t find it. But, there is this editorial in Haaretz:

“>The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is the clear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu.”

“>The prime minister, who has prided himself on his vast political experience and irreplaceable wisdom in security matters, completely failed to identify the dangers he was consciously leading Israel into when establishing a government of annexation and dispossession, when appointing Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir to key positions, while embracing a foreign policy that openly ignored the existence and rights of Palestinians.”

haaretz.com/…/0000018b-0b9d-d8fc-adff-6bfd1c88000…

Haaretz, as you probably know, is the paper of record in Israel.

Sina ,

Buffer zones are a very trendy topic these days, that’s what I expect they’ll go for before the dust settles.

Zaktor ,

How could Israel possibly need munitions after years and years of military subsidies? Especially just to fight Hamas (and do some retaliatory killing of civilians). This isn’t a Ukraine situation where a major power is invading a weaker enemy who has had to choose between military spending and social spending, this is the more powerful country attacking a weaker insurgency while being continually fed funding for their military from a superpower.

Rapidcreek OP ,

According to the clips I’ve seen, they’re firing a lot of iron dome anitiair. Wouldn’t doubt they’ll need missle restock.

Zaktor ,

The billions of dollars they’ve received is more than enough to have stockpiled a large multiple of whatever rockets Hamas was able to somehow build up in secret. “We give you $3.8B per year” should also mean “manage your own munitions when fighting a small insurgency”. If they got into another war with Iran, sure, that could warrant big brother stepping in and turning on the missile spigot, but they’re not even at war with an actual nation.

Rapidcreek OP , (edited )

I don’t know if I should explain how foreign aid works, how many long range missles Hamas controls and how they got them, what a small insurgency is, how an anti-missle system works, or something else you seem to need clarity on. So, I think you should just keep ranting.

Zaktor ,

Oooh, we got an expert explainer in the house, everyone! Let’s hear it expert, and cite your sources, we’d all love to learn from such a valuable resource.

Rapidcreek OP ,

I’m smart enough to know a drunk when I see one. Goodluck in life .

Zaktor ,

People can make fun of your lazy argument without being drunk. It’s quite easy.

You want to act like you’re a deep expert and everyone who disagrees with your positions is ignorant, here’s your chance to prove it. If not for me, do it for everyone else, because right not many people seem to be upvoting your obvious brilliance. You do want them to understand and acknowledge your expertise, don’t you? Or was this just a tired rhetorical device people have been using for decades to posture on the internet when they believe they’re right but don’t want to go through all the effort of proving it?

emma ,
@emma@beehaw.org avatar

This IS a proxy war from Iran.

Iran will give Hamas and other militant terrorist groups like Palestinian Islamic Jihad as many arms as they can get across the border.

That’s a rather significant fact to be unaware of.

Zaktor , (edited )

I’m not unaware of it, it’s just not remotely a threat that means $3.8B a year isn’t enough. Israel estimated 1,000 fighters were involved in the recent attacks. And that was considered a lot! Ukraine was invaded by 150,000 soldiers in a modern (ish) military with a full state actor behind it, not smuggled weaponry from a regional power which is still weaker than Israel itself.

emma , (edited )
@emma@beehaw.org avatar

I’m countering the way you downplayed Hamas’ resources. You keep doing this which leads to sloppy opinions. Especially so if you truly are aware of the resources Iran puts into their proxy wars.

The PRESENCE (not necessarily use) of additional weapons NOW is geo-political message to Iran to de-escalate, that the US will respond in some way. Iran will hear it even if you can’t, we’ll see what they do.

HiT3k ,

Okay genius, so what’s Iran’s military budget, what is Israel’s, and how much value in aid is Iran providing to Hamas annually? It’s more than $3.8b?

zerfuffle ,

Recent reporting from AP indicates that the Israeli blockade has meant that the primary source of explosives used in Hamas missiles are those extracted from unexploded Israeli munitions fired on Gaza.

Iran is mostly only capable of supporting Hamas through intelligence and through designs/blueprints (things that don’t really require transport).

emma ,
@emma@beehaw.org avatar

You mean the same report which also talks about arms coming into Gaza via Sudan? But yes, Gaza militants fire so many rockets and missiles at Israel they have to make their own in addition. This smuggling includes key components. And yes, Iran’s contributions are far bigger than smuggling in arms. My bad for not including a full list 🙄

None of this changes the fact that it is a proxy war with Iran.

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@beehaw.org avatar

We add a cool $5 billion to the Republicard every year on Israel’s behalf.

But the thing is… war is good business. I’d be surprised if there weren’t a legislator in Washington that hasn’t already made a stock move based on their classified briefings on this event.

jarfil ,

Last thing I’ve heard is China would be supporting Palestine/Hamas. If that were to translate into weapon supplies, it could turn into a hairy situation.

agarorn ,

That would be a Novum, wouldn’t it? China supplying weapons in a large quantity to foreign organisation’s.

bingbong ,

What is a novum?

agarorn ,

Ah. Apparently this is rarely used in English. Replace it with novelty.

zerfuffle ,

China hasn’t even supported Russia with weapon supplies. This is fear mongering a what-if that contradicts Chinese foreign policy in the first place. China’s foreign policy is one of fierce neutrality for anyone not encroaching on their own sovereignty, often to a fault.

China considers both Israel and Palestine to be strategically important allies in the region, so there’s no way they’re going to pick a side in this conflict unless that side is in support of one of China’s more significant allies (Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc.)

jarfil , (edited )

This is fear mongering

Possible. To my excuse, I heard it on TV (on a supposedly reputable channel, but still).

Another thing I’ve heard, is that apparently Russia would’ve been supplying Hamas with the NATO weapons they’ve been seizing in Ukraine from among the ones supplied as NATO aid.

emma ,
@emma@beehaw.org avatar

Hamas is the second richest terror organisation. Funding from Iran but they also grift 13% of all aid money going into Gaza via charges for currency conversion. “Not for resale” aid food products are routinely sold for profit in Gaza.

Hamas routinely chooses military spending over social spending. It’s always been their way.

Zaktor ,

“The second richest terror organization” is like talking about the second toughest fifth grader when discussing whether a prize fighter needs help in a one on one fight.

Hamas routinely chooses military spending over social spending. It’s always been their way.

How is this remotely relevant? It’s like you just scanned for keywords and then remixed them to make an irrelevant comparison.

emma , (edited )
@emma@beehaw.org avatar

False equivalence from you there. Oh so false. I’m pointing out some of the flaws in your thinking. Don’t downplay Hamas’ resources.

zerfuffle ,

You’re downplaying Israel’s resources lol

Israel’s occupation of Palestine makes the Xinjiang situation look downright utopian. Education? Jobs? Infrastructure?

emma ,
@emma@beehaw.org avatar

Oh you truly do not understand the situation with Palestine if you think it’s worse than Xinjiang. Would probably be good to reconsider your “sources” for this, someone’s misleading you badly.

zerfuffle ,

Are you forgetting how the Americans funded the American Revolution against Britain?

When living under constant suppression, inequality, and a state of war (and a blockade IS a state of war), are you really looking for a peaceful solution?

emma , (edited )
@emma@beehaw.org avatar

Are you naive enough to think Hamas is open to a peaceful solution? Their f-ing charter calls for slaughtering Jews OUTSIDE of Israel as well as annihilating those inside.

No peaceful solution is currently possible. There isn’t any solution at all right now.

If it weren’t for the blockade and the security fence, the horrors of Saturday’s massacres would be standard. Hamas shows you exactly who they are and you’re blaming Israel for taking necessary measures to reduce terrorism? Israel isn’t perfect but my word, understand who Hamas are and how much responsibility they have for conditions in Gaza.

zerfuffle ,

Hamas doesn’t get it’s support because people woke up and decided to be radical Islamists lol

It takes years of oppression, inequality, and discrimination to radicalize most people.

emma ,
@emma@beehaw.org avatar

LOL. No. Jihad against Jews existed long before Hamas become an organisation for a small part of it. Your grasp of both history and current events isn’t anywhere near as solid as you seem to think it is. The gap in your logic and knowledge here is a chasm.

DeForrest_McCoy , (edited )

To think republicans pretend like aiding Ukraine is the real problem… yet They’ll blow Netanyoohoo any time he wants. If anyone in Washington had a damn lick of sense they’d cut Israel off entirely.

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@beehaw.org avatar

If anyone in Washington cared we wouldn’t spend a dollar on foreign war (as opposed to domestic defense) until domestic needs are 100% taken care of.

rgb3x3 ,

While I agree that we very much need to take care of domestic issues, it’s more complicated than that. It’s in the global best interest for us to help Ukraine steamroll Russia. We’re getting a bargain that way, rather than becoming directly involved in a conflict.

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@beehaw.org avatar

Yeah, that’s the same thing people say every time a war pops up. It was also the justification for the trillions we wasted in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Karzyn ,

The US supporting a country fighting a defensive war against an aggressive invader isn’t equivalent to it invading another country and attempting regime change.

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@beehaw.org avatar

You’re right. It’s more like 1983, when we poured money out for Saddam Hussein because his guys were going to fight Iraq for us.

That worked out well.

But, in the end, it doesn’t matter. There’s a blank check for war and I’d just love it if people cared about the extent to which we neglect our own people in service of it.

gregorum ,

That’ll calm things down

Rapidcreek OP ,

Might as well get used to it. Things are not going to calm down for some time.

Rapidcreek OP ,

If US citizens want to be evacuated, they can count on Joe,

autotldr Bot ,

🤖 I’m a bot that provides automatic summaries for articles:

Click here to see the summaryAustin said Sunday afternoon that he had directed the USS Gerald R. Ford Carrier Strike Group to go to the Eastern Mediterranean. “We have also taken steps to augment U.S Air Force F-35, F-15, F-16, and A-10 fighter aircraft squadrons in the region,” he said. “Strengthening our joint force posture, in addition to the materiel support that we will rapidly provide to Israel, underscores the United States’ ironclad support for the Israel Defense Forces and the Israeli people,” said Austin. “My team and I will continue to be in close contact with our Israeli counterparts to ensure they have what they need to protect their citizens and defend themselves against these heinous terrorist attacks.” U.S. Central Command said later Sunday afternoon that it had begun moving the strike group. Nothing has been decided or ordered, but officials are working through options, including one that involves putting some Americans on the Navy ships to get them to safety. — Saved 51% of original text.

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