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Boxing in general is stupid as hell. I feel empathy for both parties here.
Edit: I fee really bad for Imane. She is getting dragged by conservative media, and itās absolute bullshit.
I only meant to say I feel empathy that the Italian woman got her ass handed to her and had to give up so quickly. Thatās it. Thatās nothing compared to what Imane is going through.
Why does there need to be a global rule for all sports? Just let all the sports associates decide for themselves, case by case. Itās not a big issue and doesnāt deserve international news coverage.
Current testosterone levels are not the only part of it that needs to be looked at. We as a species have sexual dimorphism. Sure it isnāt to the same effect as some other animals such as many insects, but it is enough to make it unfair for a woman to compete against somebody who went through puberty as a male. Especially in combat sports.
So even though she might have been born with a vagina, one that essentially works like any biologically female vagina, you think she should be forced to fight men because she has a Y chromosome?
Are there any other times where people should be genetically tested and given something different to do if it turns out they have Swyer Syndrome?
Yes. Also, I donāt care about her vagina. Thatās not the point. The point is that having a Y chromosome likely means her body has experienced heightened testosterone her whole life, which makes her much more physically capable than a normal woman whose body would not have experienced heightened testosterone levels. That basically means itās unsafe for her more normal competitors to get in the ring against her, same as it would be to put her up against Hafthor Bjƶrnsson.
All Olympic athletes should be genetically tested for these things, so they can compete in the right class/heat/category.
Would you reconsider your rule when the champion of every single weight division in your āone with the average testosterone content that most women have, but open to anyone that is eligibleā category is a mtf trans person?
I personally donāt think it should be controversial to give people born as women some of their own spaces, especially when it simply comes down to a question of fairness.
Sheās not a regular woman, sheās a freak of a woman. Most those athletes are freaks amongst regular people, sheās just not a freak in the same way most of them are.
Youāre welcome to think so. You are not welcome to violate our community rules. Namely, rule 6:
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
And I donāt care if you donāt think it is offensive. People with that disability sure as fuck do.
Since you would like to make a bigger deal out of this than you should have, Iāll also tell you that if you violate any of our other rules, you will have to find another place to post for a while.
Oh no. Iām being told by the hall monitor that I canāt play on the Internet anymore. You really intimidated me and taught me a lesson. Thanks for that extra helping of something I wonāt ever give a shit about.
Keep it civil. Itās OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). Itās NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
But Iām feeling magnanimous and will give you one more chance.
Michael Phelps is taller than the average pro swimmer, has an unusually long upper body and short lower body, longer arms and bigger feet than a regular person of his size would have, all this giving him more pulling power and less drag in the water. His muscles produce less lactic acid than the average athlete, shortening his recovery time.
Nobody has ever called him a freak. His success is attributed to willpower and skill.
Nobody has ever called him a freak in earnest, and nobody has ever scrutinised him the way they are scrutinising every single woman who dares to be successful while not conforming to an arbitrary and ever-narrowing standard of womanhood.
Sports where physical strenght and constitution are more important than technique will always be dominated by people with a better genetic pool.
Iām without any doubt āgenetically inferiorā when compared to Usain Bolt: even if I started training when I was 3 years old, I couldnāt even imagine to get nowhere near his level because nature decided to screw up my knees while he was born a fucking sprinting machine.
Sorry darling, suck it up and take the L or change sport.
Iām not talking about that, my whataboutistic friend, Iām talking about this specific episode thatās being used as a media case to rage-bait people.
I donāt know why youāre jumping to insults when trying to have a discussion about this, as thatās what Lemmy is for surely, discussions??
Why are you making it about solely her genetics saying that sheāll win based on these alone? Theyāve been the same when sheās lost several matches as I was pointing outā¦
Youāre doing her a massive disservice by dismissing the amount of hours, effort, blood, sweat and tears sheās likely dedicated to training, and being rude to this āaverage minded personā for pointing that out.
So you are able to understand the specific content of a generic comment!
Good for you pal! Now go and read my first comment once again because I can tell that you still didnāt understand the point I was trying to make back then.
Itās always going to be unfair when the game is going to be āhow strong am I?ā because it will always boil down to genetics. If your body is more suited than mine to shoot punches you are going to win, regardless of sex, gender, ethnicity or age: basically the Olympics are a āBiggest Pumpkin Competitionā but with a better advertising campaign.
So all of this rhetoric of āshould we test athletes for testosteroneā is fucking dumb on both sides.
Give them fucking chainsaws and let them massacre each other for my entertainment.
That plus the fact that everyone entered this thread with an opinion that is limited to one aspect of the matter, which is fine by the way until you try to derail the conversation towards that specific opinion so that you can pull it out totally out of context like a priestās cock
Letās remember that all the athletes that have records in running where found positive to doping. Then Bolt arrives and beat all their times one after the other but he is not using. I bet in 10 years he comes out as positive as well
I love everyone citing the International Boxing Association (IBA), āthey tested for XY chromosomes.ā They did a testosterone test and the IBA President concluded she had XY due to elevated testosterone.
Caster Semenya went through the same stuff but was a woman. Her case is very different but the same. A woman that has elevated testosterone but a medical condition that gives her XY chromosomes.
Instead people should be asking who Umar Kremlev. A Russian that lost his last election but decided ānope, that doesnāt countā and still holds office. Damn, who does that sound like? Yes, he has ties to the Kremlin. Can, someone remind me on their stance with alternative lifestyles?
Elevated testosterone in females is not uncommon. Just like everything else, it is complicated.
If testosterone is a PED and it doesnāt matter if the athlete is cis or not, then there should be a hard limit for both male and female athletes to ensure fairness. If too much testosterone is only a problem for women then clearly itās a sexist attempt to police womenās bodies.
Every human body produces some amount of testosterone, either too much is an unfair advantage or it isnāt.
Iām suggesting disqualifying women for abnormal testosterone levels without doing the same for men makes no logical sense. Either itās a PED or it isnāt and if youāre going to limit a naturally occurring hormone of just one sex, then itās not really about the hormone.
But they do, do the same for men. They test menās testosterone. Itās part of the anti-doping protocol.
If someone is found with abnormal levels, it can be indicative of doping, and doping by increasing testosterone is quite common. Most people know it by the name of āsteroidsā
Maybe we should just stop taking professional sports so seriously
People will always have genetically advantages, be it height, testosterone, bone density or a myriad of other factors. Trying to control all is impossible, and no matter what limits you set, youāll unfairly exclude some people
Khelif was assigned female at birth, has lived her entire life as a woman, has a passport that lists her as a woman from a country that has no trans rights.
If this had happened in the 1904 St Louis Olympics, when womenās boxing was first an Olympic sport, nobody would have batted an eyelid. This is just right wing moral panic.
Was she born intersex before being assigned female? Iām sorry but I havenāt followed all the details of the gender test and how she failed it. Do you know?
XY Gonadal Dysgenesis is a thing - or is her having high T levels fundamentally unfair? in which case why isnāt there a T limit for male athletes as well? while weāre at it why isnāt there a hight limit? or for that matter why doesnāt Phelps have all his medals revoked if he has multiple genetic āunfairā advantages compared to most swimmers? why is genetic variation seen as āunfairā in women but āfairā in men?
(not specifically related to this piece of news, whereby the Algerian contestant has apparently lived all her life as a woman etc etc)
why is genetic variation seen as āunfairā in women but āfairā in men?
There are unquantifiable variations but then there is the variation between men and women. There is a night and day of difference between the two.
in which case why isnāt there a T limit for male athletes as well?
Combat sports generally have strictly defined weight categories to flatten out huge swings in testosterone (ie muscle mass + bone density). Throw a chimpanzee into the welterweight category for example and it will fuck shit up all day long, so to me it makes sense to have testosterone categories in womenās sports but not in menās because for women the ceiling is much much higher.
There is a reason roided body builders donāt compete in natural leagues while we all stand around like programmed momos pretending they are the exact same thing.
from what Iāve read, the russian IBA tested her for testosterone levels, not chromosomes, and then claimed she had XY without releasing any evidence. Not that it really matters anyways.
As per Wikipedia:
Following Khelifās victory over Italyās Angela Carini during the 2024 Olympic Games, rumours surfaced on social media about her gender. These were fuelled by Khelifās disqualification from the 2023 Womenās World Boxing Championships organised by the Russian-led International Boxing Association (IBA) for unspecified reasons. There is no evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone.[2] The International Olympic Committee (IOC) and its Paris Boxing Unit stated Khelif was eligible to compete in the Olympics, and criticized the IBAās previous disqualification.[3]
(IBA) president, Umar Kremlev, saying that DNA tests had āproved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excludedā.
This incredibly misleading, and Iām guessing since the IBA is currently just a mouth piece for the incredibly homophobic Kremlinā¦ Iām guessing intentionally so.
Just because you have a xy chromosomes, doesnāt mean youāre automatically dictated to be sexed as a male. You could very well have a XXY pairing like women with certain types of gonadal dysgenesis, something like Turnerās syndrome.
Gender is without a doubt a human construct, but so is the false dichotomy of male/female that most people outside of the medical field view sex.
The intersex population is much larger than most people presume, and the labels in which we use to classify the majority of the population donāt really serve a medical purpose for them.
There is no standardization in medicine for Sexual assignment at birth. Sexual assignment in medicine is utilized to categorize treatment needs that are commonly specific to the patientās sex. Intersex patients will require individual assessments, as even patients with the same diagnosis can have wildly different needs.
It does say that, but she probably does have the usual XX.
The IBA based their decision to exclude her on 2 tests one in 22 and one in 23, never officially said which tests they were to protect their participants privacy, and then the president of the IBA just said they were chromosome tests.
If it was a chromosome test, they would have disqualified her in 22, those donāt change in a year. Hell, they would have disqualified her in 2023 before she entered the semi finales.
It seems more likely that she was fine in both tests. I say that because the Olympic people arenāt fools, if her Chromosomes were a problem, they wouldnāt have allowed her to participate.
Now, why donāt the Olympics just trust the IBA? High corruption made them remove the IBAās Olympic status. If you then look at who Khelif beat in 2023 before her disqualification, you might then be Russian a conclusion.