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Leg ,

I don’t think I know what progress looks like anymore.

nifty ,
@nifty@lemmy.world avatar

It’s kinda ridiculous, I hate that Islamic countries fail the separation of religion and state test. Education is a great way to change it, and just aiming to make people less religiously inclined.

CoCo_Goldstein ,

Islam was designed to be all encompassing. A separation of religion and state is anathema to Islam.

nifty ,
@nifty@lemmy.world avatar

Doesn’t matter, and same can be said of any religion. What matters is educating people and making them prefer secular states.

force ,

It worked for Turkey… until recently…

MehBlah ,

Its a crazy thing to try in a mullahville. Those guys hate anyone who isn’t their particular flavor. Pretty much like baptist with more power.

MichaelTen ,
@MichaelTen@lemmy.world avatar

Read the book Psychiatric Slavery by psychiatrist Thomas Szasz. Limitless Peace!

AFC1886VCC ,

He’s crazy for trying, yet also based as hell

spirinolas ,

In their defense, you’d have to be insane to open a gay club in Pakistan.

zerog_bandit ,

Or any Muslim majority country.

“Religion of peace”.

I_Has_A_Hat ,

People are always surprised that I’m against Muslim immigrants. I don’t get it. I’m gay, seems pretty obvious to be against those who would rather I die. And I’m not against middle eastern immigrants. But Muslims? I have enough trouble with the Christians. Please keep your even more backward, fucked up religion in your shitty countries; which are only shitty because they are led by a backward, fucked up religion.

lemmy_99c4zb3e3 ,
@lemmy_99c4zb3e3@reddthat.com avatar

He probably should open go-goat club.

xc2215x ,

Not sure why he thought that was a good idea. Being gay is fine but Pakistan not the best place.

afraid_of_zombies ,

I imagine to make a point.

yildolw ,
  • Man: Hi, I’m from Pakistan. May I move here?
  • Other country: No.
  • Man: I guess I’ll have to open a club in Pakistan.
Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Glad we supported the Pakistani coup and decided to recognize the illegitimate and fraudulent Pakistani elections where they jailed Imran Khan.

And now we get bonus points for being able to whine about the right wingers we’re supporting!

awesome_lowlander ,

As per Wikipedia:

The UN noted that there had been arrests of homosexuals within the past three years in 2018, 2019 and 2022.

So it’s not like LGBT issues were much better under Imran Khan either.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Pakistan now went more right instead of less right so I’d be surprised if it isn’t worse now.

awesome_lowlander ,

I wouldn’t be surprised either, but you made it sound like things are a lot more clear cut than they actually are.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

The new Pakistani government is pretty extreme right wing so it’s certainly not getting better.

intrepid ,

The bad laws were in place even before Imran - so that isn’t unexpected. However, only a democratic government affords any chance of revisiting it. Arguing that the situation is the same now is completely disingenuous.

BilboBargains ,

It didn’t sound like that to me. Americans meddling in other countries is par for the course.

SkyezOpen ,

Holy shit they can tell the lesser of two evils after all.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

The difference is that America isn’t going to go less right if Biden wins. It’s already in a downward spiral and voting Biden isn’t going to break it. If anything it will strengthen 2028 Republicans.

Pakistan wasn’t caught in the uniparty trap yet.

andrew_bidlaw ,

It sounds like a clever provocation, and he probably made sure it catches attention before they can silently move it under the carpet. He didn’t do any crime, he even proposed compromises to make it seem OK and followed official procedures, so they can’t (now, publicly) presecute him by law, but it offended their homophobia that much they found nothing more clever than dropping him into a mental yard instead of, like, declining his idea for some made up reason. What’s that if not a high-risk high-reward prank activism? At least, we now know that the state of Pakistan loses it’s shit over him touching that nerve.

mlg ,
@mlg@lemmy.world avatar

His mistake was not having a contact within the army leadership.

faintwhenfree ,

It was “not a mistake” for army leadership to not having a contact with the dude.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

I mean… You gotta be crazy to try and open a gay night club in a place that criminalizes being gay and not expect to be detained or even killed. I get it’s likely a form of protest, I’m just not sure what their desired outcome was.

Nurse_Robot ,

They have more balls than me for trying.

Agent641 ,

For his next act, a swingers club in Saudi Arabia

random_character_a ,
@random_character_a@lemmy.world avatar

Global news coverage and maybe some light martyrdom on the side?

jaybone ,

But don’t they have dances where they have sex with young boys?

FiniteBanjo ,

TBH the information I gleamed from this is that Pakistan somehow has mental hospitals when much of the USA lacks that sort of amenity.

jeffw OP ,

Deinstitutionalization is a good thing. The US lacks community treatment. We don’t need to go back to locking people up

FiniteBanjo ,

Okay but a pipeline of funding care seems a lot better than criminalizing homeless people who exist as a result of deinstitutionalization.

jeffw OP , (edited )

Right. Thank you for repeating what I just said in simpler terms ig

afraid_of_zombies ,

Anything to avoid talking about the elephant in the room, and what the hadiths and Koran say to do to homosexuals.

No, instead we dance around it by talking about safe subjects like what Reagan did in the US.

Yes please let’s talk about what a shitty US president did 44 years ago that impacted the US population instead of talking about what an Islamic military dictatorship did to a gay guy this week.

Nurse_Robot ,

The US went from over-treatment to no treatment. Neither has a net positive outcome.

jeffw OP ,

Deinstitutionalization has nothing to do with the lack of funding for mental health programs today. Two separate issues.

Nurse_Robot ,

Actually, funding has a very large part to do with moving away from institutions. You’ll find money is behind most big decisions in this country. Not that I’m defending the hell that is institutions

jeffw OP ,

That’s true. My point is that closing institutions and funding the alternatives are separate mechanisms. It should have been done all at once but Reagan didn’t see it that way

Nurse_Robot ,

That’s fair

afraid_of_zombies ,

Actually this article is about Pakistan

afraid_of_zombies ,

I am pretty sure there are social workers in the US.

Warl0k3 ,

What?? We desperately need mental health institutions back. No, we don’t need the romanticized victorian dungeons, but what we do need is an alternative to jails. Secure treatment facilities. We have… four, on the west coast. Two of which have at most ~160 beds. The priority waiting list for admission is decades long (no, that isnt an exaggeration) and there isn’t a non-priority waiting list. If you’re not a priority, you just go to jail!

Community treatment is critical and we totally lack anything like it, but good god deinstitutionalization was one of the biggest public health and social equity diasters this country has ever had.

jeffw OP ,

It was a failure because it was co-opted by the right (Reagan) and manipulated into a way to cut public health expenditures.

The original idea, from the left and advocated for by people like JFK, was much different

Warl0k3 ,

Deinstitutionalization was dreampt up by deluded idealists that slept with a copy of Naissance de la Clinique firmly lodged in their asses. Abolishing asylums was good, because at the time asylums were the aforesaid victorian dungeons. But from the outset, the movement was based on the belief that a magic pill would cure everything and all long term treatment was oppressive.

Antipsychotics enabled community treatment at all. But the wholesale rejection of both long term and secure treatment facilities was an indefensible failure of reasoning and an abject tragedy, and one that was set in motion by Hoffman and his peers when they penned the foundational texts of the movement.

We desperately need secure treatment facilities. There is no solution if we do not have them, just the continuing abject failure of basic human decency that we currently have. This system is broken, and it is directly the fault of everyone who began the deinstitutionalization movement and their total inability to foresee the obvious consequences of their actions. Regan was evil and JFK was understandably bitter, and even though they both worked to bring the end of asylums, they are both still guilty for their roles in bringing this current hell down on us.

Mrs_deWinter ,

If you live in the US and experience a psychotic episode, a suicidal crisis, or another mental health emergency - where do you go?

FiniteBanjo ,

You hope that being talked at over the phone is enough to save your life, lol. Other than the suicide hotline or a regular doctor’s appointment, you’ve got no options. Dial 988 for mental health crisis.

Mrs_deWinter ,

Bleak.

I don’t quite understand how deinstitutionalizing was supposed to work here. That’s like dissolving the fire department because we want to avoid cars. Was there no way to reform or replace the institutions? Just getting rid of an emergency service seems kinda like the situation you’re describing was part of the plan.

FiniteBanjo ,

The institutions were reformed. By conservatives. The Reagan Administrations “reformed” them into something that the federal government doesn’t pay for, while also cutting taxes.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Crisis services

tobogganablaze ,

Don’t need to go anywhere. The police will come and shoot you.

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works avatar

Americans are so lazy, everything has to be a delivery service.

activ8r ,

Fucking hell, this was cold and I am a terrible person for laughing at it.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Real answer? Social Services is probably the number to call unless there is a emergency medical issue in which case just regular 9-1-1.

Likely you will either ride in an ambulance or with two social workers in a car to the hospital. 24-48 hours out-patient while you are stabilized. If it is a temporary situation, say you had an insanely high fever and were delirious you would just go home. If it wasn’t temporary highly likely assigned a case manager for placement.

Despite what you see in the movies/TV you will not be thrown into an mental institution you will not be forced to take a cocktail of drugs that make you a zombie.

Mrs_deWinter ,

My experience does not come from movies. I am an outpatient psychotherapist (in a country with a reasonably functioning psychiatric system). I have repeatedly seen patients slip into psychomental crises where outpatient care is no longer sufficient. The local psychiatric clinics were sometimes real lifesavers. That’s why I find the idea of healthcare without emergency institutions confusing. I would find it terrible not to be able to offer my patients anything in such emergencies.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Ok well I am not sure what to say except my entire family is crazy so I have seen the procedure, also my wife is a hospital nurse. Pretty much every hospital has a floor for emergency mental health admissions.

Mrs_deWinter ,

Ah okay. So deinstitutionalization in that context was meant to include psychiatric institutions into general hospitals? Because that I can totally get behind.

Based on the other comments I got the impression that there simply is no inpatient treatment plan for mental health in the US.

afraid_of_zombies ,

There used to be huge asylums. Now there are almost none and the few that remain are nearly empty. The big thing is stabilize the patient and setup a plan so they don’t have to come back again. Which usually involves housing, assigned case manager, medication, food stamps etc.

Mrs_deWinter ,

That sounds really good. Glad to hear it.

catloaf ,

I would not put too much faith in the quality of their care.

FiniteBanjo , (edited )

Still better than the Gulag, but yeah my heart goes out to gay club man.

Xeroxchasechase ,

I’m not gay, but I truely Admire him

jeffw OP ,

You’re allowed to admire gay people without saying “I’m not gay” lol

Xeroxchasechase ,

Oh thank you so much!

Agent641 ,

Im not gay, but you’re welcome.

Psych ,

I’m not gay but thank you for welcoming the other not gay dude .

Plopp ,

I’m also not gay.

iAvicenna ,
@iAvicenna@lemmy.world avatar

which brings me to the next agenda item, opening a “not gay club” in Pakistan.

Blackmist ,

Well anyone not joining is going to be in big trouble.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I’m not gay, but I do wish I was more fabulous.

Agent641 ,

Oh honey, you’re exactly the right amount of fabulous!

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

You haven’t seen me with glitter in my hair. Everyone is disappointed.

iAvicenna ,
@iAvicenna@lemmy.world avatar

do you have hair to put glitter on? if yes don’t complain…

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

You can most certainly put glitter on a bald pate. It sticks more easily. And what is the point of non-fabulous hair?

I’m just saying I could learn a lesson or two from people behind the scenes at a drag show.

Resol ,
@Resol@lemmy.world avatar

Neither am I.

neidu2 ,

I’m not gay, but you’re right.

Tja ,

I’m not gay, but we’ll said.

MrFappy ,

I’m not saying his overall intent was a bad one. But if you try something like that, in a country like Pakistan, you do kinda deserve to be in a mental hospital. I understand trying to spread acceptance and provide a safe place to go for those not accepted by the local society at large, but maybe there are better, even slightly more accepting places where this kind of idea would pan out. I feel like this is equivalent to opening a dispensary in Thailand.

catloaf ,

Honestly, better being committed to a hospital where he can’t be killed by a mob.

I’m all for fighting for human rights, but you have to fight. Just hoping for the best is never going to end well.

Xeroxchasechase ,

Opening the club was the fight. Because all the reason the commenter above you said.

dubyakay ,

What’s wrong with a dispensary in Thailand?

Hellinabucket ,

Thailand and really most of Asia from my understand, has beyond zero tolerance for cannabis.

dubyakay ,

Thailand decriminalized Cannabis use in 2022. They’ve tightened the rules here and there a bit, but it’s the Mecca of Cannabis in Asia basically.

xep ,
afraid_of_zombies ,

Every Thai I know says that they don’t think it’s going to happen, it is leverage so the National Government can collect more taxes. “Ok we won’t ban you but you got to start paying more”

But hey that is just armchair speculation and this is a thread about Pakistan

afraid_of_zombies ,

Thailand has cannabis freaken everywhere a tourist might possibly be. I don’t know it if is possible to walk in a straight line for ten minutes in Pattya, Chaing Mai, or Bangkok without seeing cannabis for sale. And that is just official places, the stuff really grows like a wild weed there so tiny stores random stores will have the tea version for sale.

seSvxR3ull7LHaEZFIjM ,

He maybe should’ve known that it wouldn’t work, but does he ‘deserve’ to be in a mental hospital? Absolutely not.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Lemmy: protest groups have every right to block ambulances in the English-speaking world. If people die they die.

Also Lemmy: we have to respect the homophobia of Islam because Christopher Hitchens supported the Iraq War 21 years ago.

Wahots ,
@Wahots@pawb.social avatar

The first queer people here got fired from their jobs and left largely destitute. They were the ones that started the first gay societies and the first protests in front of the White House. Throughout the decades, many were fired, arrested, or died from poor health or deaths of despair.

Someone always has to take the first step.

I recommend reading The lavender scare, it’s extremely relevant right now, and I had to keep checking the copyright date because the same shit is happening the same way it happened in the 50s.

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