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smallaubergine ,

Imagine if the US joined the rest of the civilized world and built high speed rail networks

Dead_or_Alive ,

Because it doesn’t make economic sense to do so. Outside of a few population centers the US does not have the same population density to pull it off. There may be a few routes on the East and West coast that are viable. But overall our cities are mostly suburban and too spread out to make it an effective alternative.

bionicjoey ,

Imagine if the US joined the rest of the civilized world and built cities that aren’t 99% unlivable suburban hellscape

Dead_or_Alive ,

I don’t know, people seem to live in these hellscapes just fine. In fact after Covid they are leaving denser urban centers and moving to the suburbs in higher numbers…

bloomberg.com/…/2021-citylab-how-americans-moved/

thelastknowngod ,

It is possible to build trains/stations in lightly populated areas and have modern building codes in place to encourage modern, efficient towns be developed around them.

China took it to an extreme in one situation but it’s entirely possible on smaller scales.

Turun ,

I think only very few people would argue for a fully connected continental network. But as you said, up and down the coast is a very good usecase for high speed rail and it’s a shame you don’t have any yet.

For what it’s worth, in terms of urban development some of the big cities do move forward. I think that’s often overlooked when mocking the US for its car dependency. (But it will take a long while until the dependency debt is paid off)

Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever ,

The East and (to a lesser extent) West Coast already do have quite solid coverage by train. High speed would be nice but the population density is also such that it probably isn’t worth it because of the frequent stops.

But yeah. People really forget the scale of the US. Our one country is roughly twice the size of the EU. And while we have the densely populated areas that are comparable to “France to Belgium”, we have a LOT of empty flyover states that are comparable to the ass end of Norway and so forth.

And in actual civilized countries? It is REALLY easy to take a train to a population center. Small town? You are probably catching a bus or renting a car.

Don’t get me wrong. The US needs a LOT of work and, from looking at the amtrak route, there are a few extra lines that would actually connect the midwest/southwest pretty well. You still wouldn’t take a train from NYC to California but you might from Kansas to Chicago or whatever.

But most people come at this from “a really rich and privileged white guy told me that Amsterdam is heaven” and don’t seem to realize that our actual cities aren’t THAT much worse (unless you are a cyclist. cycling is suicide in a city) and that Amsterdam doesn’t have to deal with a North Dakota sized dead zone of all civilization and infrastructure.

Dogyote ,

The “it’s not economical” argument is used very often for numerous topics and it always begs the question: not economical compared to what? Is the purportedly more economical choice accounting for every externality it creates? Is it only economical because it already exists? Are there reasons we should stop doing the economical option? Lastly, what unaccounted for benefits might materialize if the uneconomical choice was pursued anyway?

So in this particular situation, we’re comparing the costs of building and operating high speed rail lines in the US to maintaining highways, hundreds of thousands of vehicles, airports, and planes. We should also account for the externalities created by using this infrastructure, so a shitload of carbon emissions plus the negatives of car culture and flying is just an awful experience.

We should also consider what may happen if high speed rail was built anyway. I bet there would be so much more medium distance travel, people would be going on day trips to cities they wouldn’t have considered before. Previously unknown and forgotten areas of the country may be revitalized. Who knows what cool stuff could happen.

Anyway, it really sucks when people use the “iT,s nOt eCoNoMiCaL” argument because it’s probably not true when everything is taken into account.

chaorace ,
@chaorace@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

At the end of the day, if something is economical, it basically happens automatically in a market economy. For example: It would be pointless if the U.S. government started running car rental stores in every major population center… because – duh – that idea makes money and other people are already doing it.

From that perspective, you could argue that it’s actually the government’s job specifically to do uneconomical things. That’s why running a government is hard; almost all ideas are uneconomical, so how does one manage to pick only the good uneconomical ideas? Good government policy requires the kind of foresight that can’t be gleaned from a cost/benefit analysis.

anonymoose ,
@anonymoose@lemmy.ca avatar

you could argue that it’s actually the government’s job specifically to do uneconomical things

This is an excellent point

Dead_or_Alive ,

Spoken like someone who thinks money grows on trees.

Dogyote ,

Wow what an excellent retort, I must now go back and reconsider my entire belief system and everything I’ve ever learned /s. But on a more serious note, money does practically grow on trees when viewed from the government’s perspective.

Dead_or_Alive ,

But on a more serious note, money does practically grow on trees when viewed from the government’s perspective.

:Looks at record inflation of the past two years: No, I’m pretty sure there is a cost that will eventually be paid.

Dogyote ,

Inflation was caused by a combination of supply chain disruptions (mostly this) and corporate profiteering (less this). It had little to nothing to do with government actions. Read some nonpartisan literature on the topic before you come back.

Dead_or_Alive ,

Wow you certainly cited some excellent sources there. Based on your well educated and certainly unbiased expertise I’m sure printing unlimited money by the government won’t have negative consequences. There can’t be any examples of real world bad monetary policy that has nothing to do with US partisan politics…

:Cough Argentina: :Cough Venezuela: :Cough Turkey:

Ohh sorry I must have had to clear my throat there.

HobbitFoot ,

There are plenty of routes out there that are economical. I wouldn’t expect one national system, but I would expect a series of state and regional systems similar to California’s planned system or the Northeast Corridor.

HobbitFoot ,

There is only one country that built a high speed rail network of length and ubiquity that would meet their needs, and that is China. Even then, the country has a lot of underutilized high speed rail infrastructure and built a lot of the network for other than economic reasons.

Even if the USA was to start a massive federal level HSR program tomorrow, it would likely be several disconnected networks which may never connect across the Rockies. The city pairs just aren’t there.

Dogyote ,

Even if the USA was to start a massive federal level HSR program tomorrow, it would likely be several disconnected networks which may never connect across the Rockies.

So what? You gotta start somewhere

HobbitFoot ,

I’m not saying you shouldn’t start, just that I wouldn’t expect a Spokane to Missoula or a Boise to Salt Lake City segment any time soon.

chaorace ,
@chaorace@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

I’m curious, why wouldn’t Japan or France qualify as countries which have “built a high speed rail network of length and ubiquity that would meet their needs”? Yes, China has by far the most HSR infrastructure and world-leading HSR expertise, but surely at least a few other countries can satisfy such a mediocre standard as “meeting their needs”?

Chetzemoka ,

They mean meeting the needs of the US. France is the size of Texas. What works in France doesn’t translate to the US because of our sheer geographic size. China is the only country with high speed rail that compares in geographic size to the US.

But we absolutely could and should have high speed rail corridors that cover the east coast and west coast separately.

HobbitFoot ,

Exactly. The USA should have high speed rail, but it isn’t going to be one continuous network. We also shouldn’t set the expectation for transcontinental high speed rail trips as the marker for success because that is going to lead to poor investment in HSR.

Krauerking ,

Yeah honestly northeast corridor is the way to do it and just explode the investment in the DC to New York space.

After that it can expand north and south to cover more of the East Coast. Hopefully west coast can do their own and then maybe express train connections to cities in the center to fill in over time

Cryophilia ,

Hopefully west coast can do their own

We’re working on it!

buildhsr.com

HobbitFoot ,

Both Japan and France have great high speed rail systems, but they are on par with a built it California High Speed Rail, maybe with connections to Nevada and Arizona. They may be national networks, but the size in the USA would put them more at the size of an individual state.

The scale of HSR required to take a trip like shown in the video would need to be on a system the scale of China’s system, not Japan or France.

And note that I didn’t say that high speed rail in the USA is bad, just that it probably wouldn’t be one full network; there would likely be gaps in coverage.

anonymoose ,
@anonymoose@lemmy.ca avatar

What are “city pairs”?

HobbitFoot ,

Two cities of a certain size that are within the distances that high speed rail makes sense over driving or flying. It makes sense to connect Los Angeles to San Francisco, for instance. However, there isn’t that much density in a large part of the country to justify the cost of high speed rail currently.

Hell, a big complaint with California’s HSR implementation is that it isn’t initially connecting either of the two main cities; those segments are still under design.

So a high speed rail trip cross country isn’t going to be viable any time soon, and likely shouldn’t be planned for beyond mandating a federal electrification and signaling standard.

anonymoose ,
@anonymoose@lemmy.ca avatar

Thanks for the explanation!

CubbyTustard ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    Staple_Diet ,

    If you ever have to do this buy yourself lots of benadryl and just sleep as much as possible.

    Err, nah fuck that; en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Tim_McLean#:~:….

    According to witnesses, McLean was sleeping with his headphones on when the man sitting next to him suddenly produced a large knife and began stabbing him in the neck and chest. After the attack began, the bus driver pulled to the side of the road, and he and all the other passengers fled the vehicle. The driver and two other men made an attempt to rescue McLean, but were chased away by Li, who slashed at them from behind the locked bus doors. Li ultimately decapitated McLean and displayed his severed head to those standing outside the bus, then returned to McLean’s body and began severing other parts and consuming some of McLean’s flesh.

    CubbyTustard ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    TropicalDingdong ,

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/01f7e175-1854-4498-9578-70b80d690b6a.webm

    Staple_Diet ,

    Yeah I know man, just the first thing I think of when people mention sleeping on a Greyhound.

    SHITPOSTING_ACCOUNT ,

    You’re not alone… came here to make a joke about this (and I am still going to).

    WiildFiire ,

    Yeah I would rather be so deeply asleep I wouldn’t suffer that much in my last moments

    Lifecoach5000 ,

    Im with you. I did this from TX to PA in the late 90s and would not recommend. I had it both ways though - a friend on the ride up who was moving there. The ride home alone was indeed that much more long and depressing. 1/2 star would not recommend

    SHITPOSTING_ACCOUNT ,

    Judging by the stories I have heard about Greyhound, the Benadryl is a very nice gesture. That way, the people who steal your kidneys will have to spend less on drugs for you.

    massive_bereavement ,
    @massive_bereavement@kbin.social avatar

    If someone steal my kidneys, then probably they need them more than I do.

    Peppycito ,

    I used pot butter cookies. The trick is to look like a sketchier creep than all the sketchy creeps coming on board. Look angry and smelly. Twitch if you can.

    irationslippers ,

    Psssh amateurs, I did over 120 hours greyhound Victoria -> Toronto. Worst decision I ever made.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    I’ve always wanted to take a train across the U.S. with a sleeper car, but I couldn’t handle sitting up for that long.

    Jode ,

    Also it’s insultingly expensive. I had an opportunity to do it for a work trip but couldn’t justify the thousands of dollars vs the way cheaper and quicker flight.

    HobbitFoot ,

    Honestly, taking a transcontinental train is less a form of transit and more kind of land cruise.

    mercano ,
    @mercano@lemmy.world avatar

    The slower speed is why it’s so expensive. Instead of employing a pilot, co-pilot, and flight attendants for a few hours, you have to employ engineers, conductors, and car attendants for days. Labor is one of any business’s highest expenses, and when you require 10x as much for the same result…

    YIj54yALOJxEsY20eU , (edited )

    I think you forgot to factor airports, ground crew, atc, and federal flight infrastructure in

    mercano ,
    @mercano@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s roughly equivalent to maintaining train stations (some of which see less than one train, per direction, per day), FRA oversight, rental fees to the host railroad outside of the limited tracks Amtrak owns, locomotive and car maintenance, etc.

    Wendover broke down the numbers a few years ago, I don’t think they’ve changed significantly since then.

    electric_nan ,

    I’ve done Seattle to Richmond, VA. Would just about rather hitchhike.

    nyakojiru ,
    @nyakojiru@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Who is miles ?

    HobbitFoot ,

    He’s in transit.

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