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fury ,

How is the 3G sunset not solvable by just swapping out a modem module for an LTE or 5G one and maybe installing some new modem firmware? A lot of cars are running a Linux kernel under the hood, so I’d think it’s pretty well swap and go

jwt ,

I think the question is not if it’s solvable, but ‘who pays for it?’ and ‘who can be held accountable if things go awry?’

fury ,

The company that didn’t see the 3G sunset coming, I would think. I know auto moves slow, but damn…4G was out for what, 4-5 years before development likely started on the 2019 model year?

jwt ,

I’d think so too, but (I assume) you and I don’t have a small army of lawyers and lobbyists on retainer.

boonhet ,

Ah, if only car hardware was modular and standardized… And if you had access to your infotainment system beyond touching the pretty buttons…

pumpkinseedoil ,

Are these buttons in a room with us right now

Give me my buttons back

boonhet ,

I’m lucky enough to never have owned a car without buttons - My newest car was a '19 Benz and they LUCKILY were pretty slow about hopping onto the touchscreen bandwagon

However, in my comment I meant on-screen buttons anyway, as that seems to be the norm nowadays :(

pumpkinseedoil ,

Hopefully that’ll change, iirc the EU discussed about requiring physical buttons for the highest safety rating a few months ago. Idk how that turned out but if it passed there’s hope

I love it when politicians in a democracy are doing things for the people.

fury ,

Imagine something as outlandish as user serviceable infotainment systems. Like they used to have in the old days. I’m hanging on by a thread to my basic 2014 car which still has a double DIN slot I can put my own system into…some day

skulblaka ,
@skulblaka@sh.itjust.works avatar

I dream of an open source car. Something simple but reliable, say a legally-distinct 2004 Honda Accord, bog standard, no frills, no detail package options, just A Cheap Car with standardized parts and open source software. It’s the only car the company makes, you can buy one for 10k or build your own for 6k out of parts and a couple months worth of weekends, car nerds will fork the software for infinite tuning customization, and it doesn’t report your location back to headquarters. Parts are standardized across every car we’ve ever made so your local parts store will have them in stock. The new model year is the same car as last year, we just built some fresh ones for people to buy new.

I have no way of making this dream a reality. But I dream of it nonetheless. American car culture has gone off the rails, and the number of people I see already driving around old 5-owner Hondas and Toyotas and Buicks tells me that there is definitely a market for a cheap basic car that runs.

technocrit ,

Car dependency is a dead end. It’s inherently wasteful, privileged, inefficient, unsustainable, unhealthy, etc. I would much rather have free, extensive, public transit and safe infrastructure for pedestrians, bikes, and light EVs.

nyan ,

Building out transit and infrastructure takes time. In the meanwhile, people still have to get places.

laurelraven ,

I don’t think anyone is suggesting otherwise, but continuing to say that as a reason not to work towards that goal makes no sense

BearOfaTime ,

And isn’t necessarily the best approach

firadin ,

Great, lmk when there’s a regular train from Boston to my office in Boxborough, which currently requires it’s residents to drop off their own trash at the facility. I’m sure that’ll be frequent and efficient right?

InternetUser2012 ,

Tell us you don’t live in the US without telling us you don 't live in the US.

Eccitaze ,
@Eccitaze@yiffit.net avatar

Or anywhere relatively rural. I just got home from a long weekend in rural Minnesota/Wisconsin, and there’s literally no viable way to run public transit out there in a manner that wouldn’t either be so restrictive as to be useless, or would lose so much money it would be first on the block for service cuts (and therefore become useless). I’m talking “town of 600 residents, most people live on unincorporated county land on a farmstead, and the only grocery store in a 50 mile radius is a Dollar General” rural. Asking these folks to give up cars is an insane prospect.

SwingingTheLamp ,

Paved roads don’t just naturally occur, though. That lifestyle is already an insane prospect, unsustainabke but for the large tax subsidy required to enable it.

SwingingTheLamp ,

I live in the U.S. That comment is 100% true, no matter where one lives.

frezik ,

Creating a FOSS EV is all do-able right now with off the shelf motors and batteries. Welding a frame would take some skill. How to title it would depend on the local government rules; many states in the US have a kit car designation for this sort of thing, but not all do.

If it’s built rigid like a race car with a roll cage, four-point harness, and at least a DOT rated helmet for everyone inside (if not Snell), it could be safer then most cars on the road. If it’s not very large, then it’s probably safer for pedestrians and bicycles, too.

I don’t expect air bags to be viable. It takes a lot of tuning to get them right, and they can be worse than nothing if not done right (they’re basically a controlled explosion). However, the race car-like design above, plus helmets, would keep you safer than any air bag. Road cars converted to track cars often disable or remove the air bags. The rules of the event may even require it. They’re counterproductive dead weight when you’re packed in this way.

Other creature comforts are going to be what you put into it, but keep in mind that many of the things we take for granted in modern cars–A/C, stereos, padded seats, etc.–add a whole lot of weight.

What also adds weight is how many passengers you want to carry at once. Two passengers won’t add much weight, but four or more would. All that extra frame material adds up.

Building a traditional frame would take some welding skills. I have just enough welding skills to make some shelves, but anything structural (which my tutor defined as “anything where somebody’s life depends on the weld holding”) is not something I’m comfortable doing. That is to say, it’ll take more than a quick tutorial and a little practice.

However, one interesting possibility is epoxy. Lotus did this for the Elise, and I once tracked down the epoxy manufacturer they use (I’d have to search around to find it again, though). The instructions for it didn’t seem to need anything particularly out of reach for a hobbyist (doesn’t need a big autoclave or anything like that). Lotus did reinforce certain sections with bolts/rivets. It will take some knowledge to design a frame around this, but it’s one time design work by an engineer and then everyone can copy it.

One advantage Lotus had over a welded frame was thinner material. A weld itself is very strong, but it weakens the metal around it (meaning you usually get breaks around the weld, not on it). You have to use thicker metal to compensate for that. Since Lotus was using an epoxy, they could use thinner material for less weight, and it was stronger in the end.

Since it’s also getting rid of a whole lot of weight around the frame, the range you get out of those batteries could be extreme. It could also be extremely quick with a modest motor.

This is basically all to say that you can have any three: safe, creature comforts, enough space for passengers, range.

HelloHotel ,
@HelloHotel@lemmy.world avatar

I want that so badly.

boonhet ,

For legal reasons it might be easier to take an existing car, throw out all the tech, and add your own. You won’t own the chassis design, but you can at least use open source software everywhere.

Difference between getting a modification certified, vs a self build.

ApollosArrow ,

I assume car manufacturers would try to stop this by saying people would just load up video games or netflix on their dashboards while they drive. Even though you could probably do that now already, if you really wanted to.

laurelraven ,

Hell, I could just bolt a laptop to the dash if I really wanted that

markon ,

Yeah I want my autonomous electric town car to be fully open. We should be able to have sustainable cars if any cars at all. Cars you can’t easily repair or maintain are not sustainable.

InFerNo ,

That would have been the Sono Sion, but there was too little interest. Not enough preorders meant they ran out of money to continue development.

96VXb9ktTjFnRi ,

Off topic: I’d argue Love Exposure by Sion Sono is the best movie ever made.

histic ,

And this is why I drive a 1980 Volkswagen rabbit pickup. better gas mileage then modern cars (50mpg+ on the highway) I can replace about any part in it for under a few hundred in most cases even a new engine can be done under 1000. And everything is dead simple to work on no fancy computers or anything.

Valmond ,

Polluting as hell though, or so I imagine?

Even in Sweden catalysators were not mandatory before like 1986 IIRC.

The rest is awesome though 👍😎

histic ,

Oh yea it’s a straight pipe diesel ain’t anything good for the environment gonna put a slightly more modern engine in it at some point for some more power the 1.6l in it currently only makes like 50 horse so when I do that it’ll be a little better but still not great

boonhet ,

Well there are a bunch of reliable late 90s and early 2000s German engines that would make that thing ridiculously fast compared to now, pollute less, burn less fuel, and would be pretty easy to maintain.

Long as you avoid all the ones with known pitfalls and research standalone ECU options first of course.

I’m partial to Mercedes engineering myself, I’d tell you to use an OM646. But there’s nothing wrong with an M47 or a VW 1.9 tdi either. The PD version of the tdi is slightly more complex than the oldschool versions (66 and 81 kW), but would get you ridiculous performance and fuel economy considering how little your car weighs.

Of course if you had more space in there, I’d suggest an OM648 or M57, but I don’t think you’d get an inline 6 to fit. MAYBE an OM647 since it’s an inline 5?

histic ,

You can get a inline 5 in it cause I know you can fit a o7k or a vr6 lol. my plan was to swap it to a TDI I actually have an 01 TDI sitting here for it just don’t have the money currently to finish it but once i do, this TDI is actually supped up some pushing 20+ psi of boost not the I will probably run that much since I plan to daily it but it can

BearOfaTime ,

And what are the pollution costs of even manufacturing a new vehicle, VS one that’s already in place?

We can’t manufacture our way to using fewer resources.

GamingChairModel ,

We can’t manufacture our way to using fewer resources.

Why not? Seems like a pretty simple formula: if it costs X amount of resources or pollution to save Y amount of resources or pollution per unit time, the break-even point is whenever Y times time exceeds X.

AA5B ,

You can, though. There are many lifecycle analyses using actual data to calculate the tradeoff point.

boonhet ,

This depends a lot on how much the one already in place pollutes, vs the new one.

For an EV vs a slightly older ICE, on your average western power grid (so not fully renewable, but not fully coal either), it takes just a few years till the EV’s total lifetime emissions are less.

AA5B ,

How about those crumple zones? Feel safe in your passenger cage? Hope you’re shorter than the dashboard in case of a rollover. Don’t have to worry about getting hit by those airbags, do you? Imagine that steering column spearing through your chest

New cars aren’t just about the latest infotainment, gadgets, and design. There have been huge improvements in pollution control and safety. There has also been huge improvements in efficiency, even if they’re masked by the increased weight of safety improvements, increased performance, and generally much larger size. So far a lot of that increased complexity is well worth it - I’ll never have another car without anti-lock brakes

droans ,

That’s the only reason I bought a modern car.

My parents would always buy cheap beaters. They had a car from the 90s they only recently got rid of because the transmission was shot. My first car was an '05 Caravan I drove for almost two years and got rid of in 2018.

I swallowed the pill after seeing cars get absolutely crushed to the point where the jaws of life were necessary yet passengers could just walk out.

I remember someone posted a picture of their brand new sedan. It was involved in a serious accident and sandwiched between two large pickup trucks. The entire car was squished down until it was smaller than the passenger compartment. The driver was able to walk away with minor injuries and the paramedics weren’t even surprised.

I don’t give a shit about the fancy features. I just want something that is reliable and safe.

0x0 ,

New cars aren’t just about the latest infotainment, gadgets, and design.

They mostly are, companies don’t care to innovate anymore, only to sell.

There have been huge improvements in pollution control and safety.

Safety? Some, sure. Pollution? The only reason governments regulate is because car companies want to sell you a new car every year. Ooops, big bad government whom we happen to have in our pocket wants Euro5 now…

…even if they’re masked by the increased weight of safety improvements, increased performance, and generally much larger size.

More weight/size = more raw materials, is it really that good for the environment?

If companies and governments are so keep on being green (they’re not) they’d ensure cars are easily repairable and upgradable. And they’d keep supporting older models - design a more efficient engine to replace the one in the older car why won’t they?

AA5B ,

More weight/size = more raw materials, is it really that good for the environment?

If a vehicle doubles in size, vastly improves performance, and still has similar efficiency, yes, that’s a win. If it improves safety enough to save tens of thousands of lives every year, yes it’s worth it.

Gsus4 ,
@Gsus4@programming.dev avatar

…linux cars? Pretty please?

jose1324 ,

God no

BilboBargains ,

Vehicle control systems are overwhelmingly programmed in C, mostly from graphical design tools such as MATLAB Simulink via an automatic process. These are real time control systems which are quite different to an interrupt based operating system such as Linux. The many individual controllers must work in concert according to a strict architecture definition and timing schedule that defines the functionality of the vehicle. It’s not at all like a PC or phone, whose OS become irrelevant over time, with respect to their environment of other systems. The vehicle environment is the same environment that we inhabit i.e. the one with gravity, friction, charge and the other SI units. This is slowly changing with advent of self driving but, yeah.

Gsus4 ,
@Gsus4@programming.dev avatar

fine, fine, I learned 3/4 new things there, thanks for taking the time

Lumisal ,

Yeah but the infotainment system can be Linux based.

0x0 ,

These are real time control systems which are quite different to an interrupt based operating system such as Linux.

You do know you can operate the linux kernel in real time, right?

SapientLasagna ,

It’s not a hard real time OS though. Real Time Linux would be appropriate for some subsystems in a car, but not for things that are safety critical with hard timing constraints, e.g. ABS controllers.

nickwitha_k ,

This is correct. If using an OS, an RTOS like the Linux Foundation Zephyr OS is the right choice here.

theacharnian ,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

Cars have been computers on wheels for at least 15 years now.

Zak ,
@Zak@lemmy.world avatar

Locked bootloaders should be illegal. Manufacturers should have to provide enough specs that third parties can write code that runs on the hardware.

0x0 ,

Manufacturers should have to provide enough specs that third parties can write code that runs on the hardware.

“But Crowdstrike” would probably be an argument against.

Zak ,
@Zak@lemmy.world avatar

“Security” as an excuse for self-serving bullshit isn’t new.

Sure, there’s a risk of breaking things. I can do that with a hacksaw and a soldering iron too, and it’s widely recognized that it isn’t up to the manufacturer of the thing to keep me from breaking it. We need the same understanding for devices that depend on software.

NauticalNoodle ,

Cellular enabled cars are conceptually dumb. That’s a hill I’m willing to die on.

ZarkleFarkle ,

Me when my car gets hack and remote controlled to drive off a cliff:

“Ahhh” D: sploosh

SynopsisTantilize ,

Makes no sense to me…but at this very moment I’m a hypocrite lol

kalleboo ,

Naw, I live in a hot as hell country I’m super jealous of people who can remote-start the air conditioning in their cars.

It should be an open interface like OBD2 though where you can choose the hardware/provider instead of being locked to the car manufacturer deprecating everything in 3 years to sell you a new car.

Anatares ,

Assuming you park next to your house a WiFi connection on the local network would be everything you need. Relatively cheap compared to the car would be a repeater to extend it for people like me who park 30-50m away I agree with you assumption that this is car manufacturers creating software based planned obsolescence. An open source framework would resolve this concern even over cell networks but defeats the entire point of also pushing power windows and seat heating as a service.

boonhet ,

Two way alarm systems with remote start have been a thing for pretty long and don’t all require cellular connection. Some are just super long distance key fobs.

sheogorath ,

You don’t really need connected cars for that. My car has no smart features but still has a remote start capability. It uses the car remote to trigger it instead of cellular connection.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I cannot remote start my car. If it’s really hot or really cold, I go outside for a few seconds to start the car and then go back inside. It’s really not that big a hardship.

0x0 ,

Crash-detection systems can use cellular to alert medical authorities, that and theft are about the only practical use cases i see for that.

ThePrivacyPolicy ,

I feel like these days the tech should be there to just leverage our cell phones for this. Most drivers have their phones paired to their cars now anyway, and perhaps some sort of emergency protocol could be created where a car could even connect through a nearby non-paired phone for an automated emergency call too. As for tracking - make cars have something like an air tag type function built in that can share both android+apple tracking networks. This is all a pipe dream anyway - there’s money to be made on connected car services so the shareholders won’t be for modernizing the approach anytime soon.

TheObviousSolution ,
@TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee avatar

If only. They are more like rolling SmartTVs. Once they stop getting updates, only the offline features will work.

Contravariant ,

Please tell me someone thought about a switch to take them offline.

jimmy90 ,

this should be part of car safety and legislated by the govt, no?

in the uk it would be part of the MOT to see that your software is up to date and working

MDKAOD ,

Just like they legislate vehicle size, headlight brightness, and enforce fuel economy standards?

Blackmist ,

Then whatever is fucked in the electronics will be fucked forever.

Just like it has been for the last 20 years or so.

I_Miss_Daniel ,

What’s wrong with just a pot box, a motor and some batteries?

disguy_ovahea ,

That’s what I like about CarPlay. Just give me a dumb screen with CarPlay compatibility. I’ll get new features with my phone upgrades. The rest of the car could be mechanical for all I care. I prefer cable clutches anyway.

I_Miss_Daniel ,

Hehe. I’ve just got a Sony Bluetooth speaker sitting on the dash. For poddies it’s good enough.

RisingSwell ,

Had similar in my old car, honestly a decent Bluetooth speaker will be better than a lot of old, stock car speakers would be anyway.

AstralPath ,

A clutch? What’s that? /s

SlopppyEngineer ,

Profit. They can add all those features and charge significant higher margins. The same as the bigger the car the bigger the profit so they push huge SUVs and pickups on everyone.

invertedspear ,

The main issue is that the NHSTA requires a backup camera, which requires a screen. Since they have to make room for that screen, manufacturers now want to make it a premium thing they can use to justify up charging.

I don’t see a solution to this until someone actually tries to make things cheap again and small screens become the trend.

I_Miss_Daniel ,

Is that a new rule? For all cars?

ltxrtquq ,

transportation.gov/…/nhtsa-announces-final-rule-r…

If by “new” you mean decided a decade ago and implemented 6 years ago, then yes.

I_Miss_Daniel ,

I didn’t know. Maybe it’s not a law in Australia or I just haven’t been paying attention as my '96 Magna is still going fine.

Grippler ,

Luckily modern cars are generally a lot safer to drive than your old magna. Air bags (not new, just better), crumble zones, automatic emergency braking, lane assist/departure warning etc. have come a really long way in the past 30 years. They’re not only less likely to be in major crashes, they’re also safer for both people in the car and outside the car (bikes/pedestrians) if it happens.

I_Miss_Daniel , (edited )

Hehe you forgot ABS :) It’s up to me to pulse the brakes to keep steering, learned that in a defensive driving course.

I have a newer 2003 Verada as well but it’s decided it no longer can find TDC (code 22, 23) so I’m saving up for the diagnostics and possible repair or replacement.

I agree a newer car is safer, and am hanging out for an EV when I can afford one. In the mean time the simple reliability of the Magna is a trade off I must make.

As for repairability, I’m aware that I will soon need to replace the capacitors in the ECU and TCU on the Magna since they die of old age. It’s a failure mode for older cars that people might not anticipate - same as how all electionics die eventually.

ltxrtquq ,

Reversing technologies that meet the new standard must be installed in all new vehicle models from 1 November 2025.

Apparently Australia only got around to it last year, but they’re requiring it to be implemented a lot faster.

I_Miss_Daniel ,

TIL. Thanks.

barsquid ,

That doesn’t seem to have anything which will manage your heated seat subscription or data mine your driving activity.

I_Miss_Daniel ,

Hehe. Ok. Add an inverter and an electric blaket under the seat cover :)

Wanderer ,

Can you buy a TV based on the same basic functions like you list there?

I_Miss_Daniel ,

Maybe a USB DVB-T adapter plugged into a laptop or phone is about as close as you can get now.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/c49dad31-34f9-433b-9660-f6c190cb9c16.jpeg

Or an older set top box, but not so old that it can’t handle MP4.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Get a “smart” TV, never connect it to the internet, and attach a Chromecast and connect that instead because they cost about $30. The Chromecast with Google TV has apps for Kodi and Plex along with the basic streaming services so you can turn your TV into a media center.

That way, the only thing that will stop being unsupported is the Chromecast and you’re only out $30.

fubarx ,

It’s not just cars. Anything with electronics (appliances, smarthome devices, healthcare, transportation) that is designed to last more than three years will hit a wall.

The host devices are designed to last 10-15 years, but the electronics will be out-of-date in 3-5 years.

The processor manufacturer will have moved on to new tech and will stop making spare parts. The firmware will only get updated if something really bad happens. Most likely, it’ll get abandoned. And some time soon, the software toolchain and libraries will not be available anymore. Let’s not think of the devs who will have moved on. Anyone want to make a career fixing up 10-yo software stack? Where’s the profit in that for the manufacturer?

So as an end-user, you’re stuck with devices that can not be updated and there’s still at least 10-20 years of life left on them. Best of luck.

Solution: go analog. Pay extra if you have to. They’ll last longer and the ROI and privacy can’t be beat.

wewbull ,

The problem isn’t analogue Vs digital, or even software controlled or not. It’s about the design assuming:

  1. The manufacturer will always exist
  2. The manufacturer should be the only one to maintain the device.
  3. The manufacture will define what the owner will do with the device.

An analogue device can be at fault too. Proprietary parts. Construction techniques which don’t allow for dissambly without destroying things. All that stuff.

…but you’re right. Buy the items that let you service them, that don’t rely on cloud servers and software updates, that use standard parts, etc, etc. Right to repair legislation is good too, but the companies understand purchasing power more. So educate those around you too.

AnarchoSnowPlow ,

Analogue doesn’t have firmware that can reject a device based on id.

So you can reverse engineer a replacement part if you absolutely have to.

xthexder ,
@xthexder@l.sw0.com avatar

A lot of what’s driving these decisions is the mass switch to subscription models. Everything’s designed so you have to keep coming back to the manufacturer.

It used to be making a high quality, standalone product meant you could spend less on customer service and RMA’s. Now they’ve figured out they can sell you service contracts and make money off you being locked in.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Yes and no. My “smart” TV is still doing just fine a good decade since I bought it… by never connecting it to the internet.

todd_bonzalez ,
@todd_bonzalez@lemm.ee avatar

Cars should just come with a big open socket up front, where I can buy (or build) my own infotainment system to install there. That way I can replace it over the course of the car’s lifetime. Or, give me the option to just plug it up or install a traditional car radio or something. I should be able to cram an 8-track player in if I want.

Keep all automobile controls as physical buttons, knobs, and levers.

I haven’t owned a car in over 10 years, but whenever I look at what’s available, I can’t get past how much planned obsolescence is baked into newer cars. I would never buy one…

If automakers focused on cars, and let tech companies and focus on building the infotainment systems, we’d have better choices and less vendor lock-in.

noughtnaut ,
@noughtnaut@lemmy.world avatar

Cars should just come with a big open socket up front, where I can buy (or build) my own infotainment system to install there.

…which is precisely what we used to have, before auto makers decided to insist that they should be enclosed in a swooping dash.

todd_bonzalez ,
@todd_bonzalez@lemm.ee avatar

I’d be fine with a reinvention of the modular system with more digital I/O and connections to other features of the car. Let me buy something like a “Samsung Galaxy Drive” infotainment dash that embodies the “swooping dash” concept, or let me buy a pre-built shell that I can build out like a custom PC.

I can cram my car full of corporate apps, or I can run it on Linux. I would love to have the choice.

Any future self-driving capabilities need to be inside of their own dedicated system like an aircraft autopilot.

BigPotato ,

I mean, the DIN hole was a standard size but it certainly wasn’t a ‘socket’ and anyone who had a Ford Focus that needed a Mercedes-Benz writing harness to plug up their aftermarket radio knows what I’m on about.

Omniraptor ,

I may be weird but why would you need an infotainment system at all? I have all the infotainment I could possibly want in my phone, the car is only needed as a Bluetooth speaker and for standard playback controls.

boonhet ,

The car screen is significantly bigger than the phone screen, making it quicker to glance at it for driving instructions.

But now we’re just coming back to Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. I just want a big screen with physically touchable controls for those. My previous car did exactly that, but now I’ve gone near two decades older so I now get a fancy screen with no functionality beyond FM radio and DVD video lol

AA5B ,

That was also the point of Apple CarPlay/Android auto. Let the manufacturer provide the hardware but your phone can run the infotainment. Let actual software companies do that, instead of the horrible mess that car manufacturers make out of software

Laborer3652 ,

The problem with that though, at least for Android Auto, is that Google (and I also presume Apple) controls the apps that can be shown on the center console. They effectively cut out all competitors by controlling the access. I would like an Open API for this please!

hahattpro ,

Now car do get dlx, subscription.

And when you sell a car, all dlc are lost.

dumbass ,
@dumbass@leminal.space avatar

They no roll?

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