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lugal ,

No, it’s the AI enthusiasts that are wrong.

h0bbl3s ,
@h0bbl3s@lemmy.world avatar

My main OS (debian) ssd started throwing Io errors this Friday night and I had to work Saturday, only image I had laying around was Fedora Kinoite. So that’s what I’m running until I order a new drive. I’m getting my wife a new laptop soon and was considered silverblue (she’s a Mac user but very quick with tech in general).

Anyway after using it a few days, I think when I get my new drive I might just go ahead and put Kinoite on it. I’m used to running my dev stuff in containers anyway and toolbox makes it super easy. Rpm-ostree is a breeze (though it takes a minute to build on this ancient USB hdd, I’m replacing my dieing SSD with an nvme so I don’t foresee the ostree builds as being an issue).

I think immutable is absolutely the way forward, especially for less computer literate folks. It will keep them more protected and if they do mess up something the rollback is a breeze.

null ,

NixOS is the most boring distro I’ve ever used.

I configured everything across multiple machines and now it just works.

Telorand ,

How, tho?

Seriously, how do you even get started? It’s like the tutorials are all, “This is a basic ‘Hello World’ module/flake. Now, you are a master.” I would love to figure it out, but I need a little more hand holding.

demesisx OP ,
@demesisx@infosec.pub avatar

I HIGHLY recommend forking a nix-config that uses flakes, home-manager, and whatever window manager you prefer. Since Nix is so versatile (and the documentation of flakes and home-manager are BAD), I found it absolutely crucial to reuse a well-architected config and slowly modify it in a VM to sketch out my config until it was stable enough to try on a real machine.

jlow ,

Yeah, I’ve had the same experience multiple times, people have been raving about it but I can’t find a tutorial that is as noob-friendly as I’d need it.

jungle ,

It seems to me that almost all native English speakers got principal and principle backwards. I’m actually surprised when I see them used correctly (which is not the case here).

demesisx OP ,
@demesisx@infosec.pub avatar

Doh! Ps. Thanks for the correction.

hedgehogging_the_bed ,

As a child in the US I was taught “The Principal is you ‘pal’.” which is not true but helpful when spelling it. Like “dessert” has more ‘s’ than “desert” because it’s something you want more of.

LarkinDePark ,

Principal

ikidd ,
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

I went through a NixOS phase, and for a user that isn’t trying to maintain a dev environment, it’s a bloody lot of hassle.

I’m all behind immutable distros even though I don’t particularly have the need for them, but declaritive OSs are kinda niche.

Prunebutt , (edited )

They’re the bee’s knees if you have a homelab, though.

ikidd ,
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

Maybe homelab stuff that you mess with a lot and need to revert or stand up a multitude? I tried it for self-hosted apps and frankly a docker host is way easier. JB guys were pushing it for Nextcloud and it was a nightmare compared to the Docker AIO. I guess you could stand it up as a docker host OS, but I just use Debian, it’s pretty much bulletproof and again, less hassle.

Prunebutt ,

I recently switched to nixos, because my ACME image was failing all of a sudden and I didn’t know enough what was going on under the hood to fix it.

It was a steep learning curve, but the infrastructure as code approach just works too well for me, since I just forget too much what I did three years ago, when doing things imperatively.

demesisx OP , (edited )
@demesisx@infosec.pub avatar

for a user that isn’t trying to maintain a dev environment, it’s a bloody lot of hassle

I agree but I prefer it to things like ansible for sure. I’m also happy to never have to run 400 apt install commands in a specific order lest I have to start again from scratch on a new system.

Another place I swear by it is in the declaration of drives. I used to have to use a bash script on boot that would update fstab every time I booted (I mount an NFS volume in my LAN as if it were native to my machine) then unmount it on shutdown. With nix, I haven’t had to invent solutions for that weird quirk (and any other quirks) since day one because I simply declared it like so:


<span style="color:#323232;">{
</span><span style="color:#323232;">  config,
</span><span style="color:#323232;">  lib,
</span><span style="color:#323232;">  pkgs,
</span><span style="color:#323232;">  inputs,
</span><span style="color:#323232;">  ...
</span><span style="color:#323232;">}: {
</span><span style="color:#323232;">  fileSystems."/boot" = {
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    device = "/dev/disk/by-uuid/bort";
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    fsType = "vfat";
</span><span style="color:#323232;">  };
</span><span style="color:#323232;">
</span><span style="color:#323232;">  fileSystems."/" = {
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    device = "/dev/disk/by-uuid/lisa";
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    fsType = "ext4";
</span><span style="color:#323232;">  };
</span><span style="color:#323232;">
</span><span style="color:#323232;">  swapDevices = [
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    {device = "/dev/disk/by-uuid/homer";}
</span><span style="color:#323232;">  ];
</span><span style="color:#323232;">
</span><span style="color:#323232;">  fileSystems."/home/mrskinner/video" = {
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    device = "192.168.8.130:/volume/video";
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    options = ["x-systemd.automount" "noauto"];
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    fsType = "nfs";
</span><span style="color:#323232;">  };
</span><span style="color:#323232;">
</span><span style="color:#323232;">  fileSystems."/home/mrskinner/Programming" = {
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    device = "192.168.8.130:/volume/Programming";
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    options = ["x-systemd.automount" "noauto"];
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    fsType = "nfs";
</span><span style="color:#323232;">  };
</span><span style="color:#323232;">
</span><span style="color:#323232;">  fileSystems."/home/mrskinner/music" = {
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    device = "192.168.8.130:/volume/music";
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    options = ["x-systemd.automount" "noauto"];
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    fsType = "nfs";
</span><span style="color:#323232;">  };
</span><span style="color:#323232;">}
</span>

IMO, where they really shine is in the context of declarative dev environments where the dependencies can be locked in place FOREVER if needed. I even use Nix to build OCI/Docker containers with their definitions declared right inside of my dev flake for situations where I have to work with people who hate the Nix way.

ikidd ,
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

No end of interesting shit you can do in Nix, at one point I had zfs and ipfs entries in one of my configs. I got away from it all before flakes started to get popular.

I tried it as a docker host; the declarative formatting drove me around the bend. I get a fair bit of disaster proofing on my docker host with git and webhooks, besides using Proxmox/ZFS to host it all and back it up.

demesisx OP ,
@demesisx@infosec.pub avatar

nd of interesting shit you can do in Nix, at one point I had zfs and ipfs entries in one of my configs. I got away from it all before flakes started to get popular.

I tried it as a docker host; the declarative formatting drove me around the bend. I get a fair bit of disaster proofing on my docker host with git and webhooks, besides us

I suspect that the whole Docker thing will improve exponentially now that Nix is on the Docker’s radar. I found the OCI implementation to be superior to the actual Docker implementation in Nix…at least for now. I think the way that Docker isolates things to layers is the biggest barrier to them working together seamlessly at the moment…but I think they’ll start to converge technolgically over the coming 10 years to the point where they might work together as a standard someday.

Carighan ,
@Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

Are we back in time 30 years when resettable systems were a new thing and controversial?

demesisx OP ,
@demesisx@infosec.pub avatar

Perhaps! I’m a big fan of immutable distros. This meme was inspired by being called an asshole for agreeing with another commment, calling it a skill issue when this one commenter flat out refused to acknowledge ANY of the positive aspects of them.

stingpie ,

So you made a meme about how your opponent is completely irrational and you are a paragon of logic and reason, and then proceeded to declare yourself the winner?

demesisx OP ,
@demesisx@infosec.pub avatar

I really didn’t declare myself the winner. IMO, I won’t have to when the software will do that when this way of working usurps container-style development as the de-facto standard.

As an actual old man who was able to adapt, I simply pointed out that OP sounds like an old man, unable to acknowledge an obvious trend where immutable systems are clearly gaining popularity and are seen by many as the correct way to provision a mission-critical system.

HakFoo ,

I suspect the tooling isn’t quite there yet for desktop use cases.

If I were to try to replicate my current desktop in an immutable model, it would involve a lot of manual labour in scripting or checkpointing every time I installed or configured something, to save a few hours of labour in 2 years time when I get a new drive or do a full install.

The case is easier for defined workload servers and dev environments that are regularly spun up fresh.

demesisx OP ,
@demesisx@infosec.pub avatar

to try to replicate my current desktop in an immutable model, it would involve a lot of manual labour in scripting or checkpointing every time I installed or configured something, to save a few hours of labour in 2 years time when I get a new drive or do a full install.

If you have only one system, you might find the benefits not to be worth the bikeshedding effort.

However, I suspect that you’d be surprised with how easy it can be using home-manager. I have literally nothing that I need to do to a newly compiled NixOS system from my config because EVERYTHING is declared and provided inside of that config.

If you don’t mind, can you give me an example of something in your config that you think is impossible or difficult to port to the Nix style? I’d be happy to attempt to Nixify it to prove my point. I’ve pretty much figured out how to do everything in the Nix way.

and I don’t mind if I end up being incredibly wrong on this point and promise to be intellectually honest about it if I am indeed wrong. It just sounds like a fun exercise for me.

HakFoo , (edited )

I guess the assumption is more that for me, a fresh install is often about decluttering as much as anything-- the five Wayland compositors, three music players, and six pseudo-IDEs I tried and didn’t like don’t need to follow me to the next build.

In a conventional install, that just means “don’t check the checkbox in the installer next time”. In a Nix-style system, this is a conscious process of actively deciding to remove things from the stored configuration, no?

I suppose the closest I’ve gotten was recently migrating my setup from a desktop to a new laptop. Mostly copying over some config from my home directory, but even then, I wanted enough different stuff-- removing tools I don’t use on the laptop, adding things like battery monitoring and Wi-Fi control-- that it involved some reconfiguration.

PeriodicallyPedantic ,

Congratulations, you’ve learned how memes are created!

herrvogel ,

What skill? This is not a fucking game lmao. I don’t use an immutable distro because I have better things to do with my time than to try and climb a steep learning curve using some very questionable documentation. I can acknowledge the benefits, but I also acknowledge it’s gonna take me time to get there. And I judge that the time investment is not worth it.

demesisx OP ,
@demesisx@infosec.pub avatar

Clearly, it’s not a skill issue with you but with the dude that inspired this, my assessment was that he was flat out unwilling to learn and flat out unwilling to acknowledge that there er clearly some benefits to this way. Seems like you already grasp it but don’t feel like committing the time. I respect that much more than the blind dismissal that inspired my meme. ✌️

kbal ,
@kbal@fedia.io avatar

Not really. Now they're old and controversial.

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