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NoiseColor ,

Israel can’t just overtake it. There is too many people there. They already tried that tactic for the last 30(?) years when gaza was a prison.

I don’t think they know what they want and can even achieve in this campaign. I don’t think they will invade Lebanon.

YourPrivatHater ,

Thats not true Israel knows exactly what they want and are doing and about 2 million (gaza) aren’t that many the remaining parts of Palestinia aren’t that many people either. A takeover of much larger places has been done in history several times.

NoiseColor ,

I see you disagree with everything I said and I think you are wrong. Let’s just leave it at that.

NeoNachtwaechter ,

I don’t think they know what they want

What would YOU want if you were a military leader of Israel there? (NOT a political one, just a soldier)

I think that they want exactly that. A military goal, not a political one.

For example “kill everybody there who takes a weapon and aims it at Israel, and then take this weapon away from his corpse.”

NoiseColor ,

Militarily? I don’t think anyone can expect they can achieve any kind of real military goal.

Maybe what you said, to kill some combatants and many times the amount of civilians with them. But that’s not really a military goal.

NeoNachtwaechter ,

I don’t think anyone can expect they can achieve

I wasn’t talking about achieving, but only about wanting.

gedaliyah ,
@gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

It’s been clear and consistent since day 1 of the war. Israel wants the return of the hostages taken on Oct 7, the removal of Hamas from power, and the inability for Hamas or any other group to repeat a deadly attack within Israel.

That was the goal on Oct 7, that’s still the goal. Anything else is just politics and propaganda.

Now, how effectively they have done so, and the methods they’ve employed are another discussion entirely.

NoiseColor ,

Yes well we would all like impossible things, but that’s not really an achievable goal and everybody on all sides are aware of that.

Monument ,

They control the borders and they are systematically destroying infrastructure while stealing the land to be ‘settled’ by right wing Israelis. (They done let liberal folk become settlers.)

The right wingers have no issue with being bad neighbors or otherwise murdering Palestinians. And they are backed up by the military. Any resistance is returned 10-fold, with an associated grab for land.

If a cease fire can be forged, the control of the border will mean that the they will continue their existing blockade on imports of building materials such as cement, so new infrastructure cannot be built. They are even using construction equipment to remove or bury rubble, so it cannot be repurposed/recycled.

The plan is to do to Gaza what they have already done to the West Bank. Turn it into fragmented enclaves that lack access to basic resources. It’s clear they even want to block total access to the beach, to prevent fishing for food. It’s why they are literally selling the land that is currently being bombed. They want to make it impossible to live there if you’re Palestinian. They want everyone that isn’t part of their theocracy to die off, or emigrate.

Not related, but totally related.
I’ve watched these interviews with white supremacists in the U.S. who talk/fantasize about the creation of a ‘white’ ethnostate. They always talk about how there will be a nonviolent transition to this, saying that people who don’t match their racial parameters will be relocated to places outside of the state, or those who won’t have children will be allowed to live out their lives, etc. And that’s widely regarded with a ‘sure buddy’ and you know they’re full of crap. People don’t want to move away from their homes. They don’t want to go where they don’t know anyone. They don’t want to lose their jobs, their savings, all their stuff, the land they own and the effort they’ve pored into their home and land or the resources their home/land offers them.

But the situation in Palestine is literally that. People are ‘voluntarily’ relocating (after their homes, jobs, neighborhoods, and often, families) have been blown up by bombs. Or they’re staying and living out the rest of their lives - until they’re shot or a bomb goes off, or they die from malnutrition, thirst, or contaminated water. Hm.
I suppose it’s (relatively) nonviolent to the aggressor.

NoiseColor ,

Sure, that’s the long term goal. I don’t think you can call that a goal of this war campaign.

This one clashes with short term goals of Netanyahu of staying in power.

Monument , (edited )

But after 30 years of lack of movement, this situation offers pretext for war without restraint. I don’t believe they plan to stop.

They don’t have to kill each person to achieve their aims. Sometimes just making sure the water is undrinkable is enough to kill tens of thousands or force many times that number to leave and never return.
2 Days Ago: Israeli strike kills Gaza workers trying to restore drinking water – The National.

SleezyDizasta ,

Wtf are you on? There were already settlements in Gaza that dated back before the Israel independence, and Israel continued to support them up until 2005 when they unilaterally existed. The hope was that exist would foster peace between Gaza and Israel, but the first thing Gazans did was elect Hamas and the rest is history. It doesn’t make sense for Israel to go back into Gaza. They already gave it up, which means there’s no strategic value there. They have nothing to gain from such a move.

Monument ,

Why are Jews settling Palestinian land in the first place?

Maybe, after forcing them from their major cities, laying claim to the most fertile land in their country, and then refusing their right to assert their own statehood (and using a superpower to back them up in that), then spending 70 years depriving them of ever-increasing amounts of their country, and blockading imports (why blockade spices for traditional foods?!?), that the presence of anything taking more of their land in the open air prison they’ve been forced into to offer a ‘peace settlement’ is not welcome.

What are you on? Is there no ability for inductive reasoning there, or are you hoping that for all your words, there’s no logic, facts, or grounding in reality?

SleezyDizasta ,

They’ve already invaded Lebanon before and every time it was for the same reason, and that was to prevent the Hezbollah terrorists from committing terrorist attacks against Israel. This time is no different

NoiseColor ,

Everytime it’s a bit different.

SleezyDizasta ,

The point is that even if they invade Lebanon again, it will be similar to the prior military operations they’ve had before. They’re not going to capture Lebanese territories like they did with Golan Heights. Otherwise they would’ve done it since they’ve had multiple opportunities to do so.

homura1650 ,

The Israeli government has no idea what it is doing. Literally. The current government was a barely held together coalition prior to October 7. In the direct aftermath, they formed a unity government and war cabinet that collapsed last week.

Their prime minister has been indicated on corruption and bribertmy charges, which are currently on hold for obvious reasons. By most indications his primary motivation in this matter is to stay in power himself, with Israel’s national interests being secondary.

Individual members of IDF leadership have called Israel’s stated objectives “unachievable”.

Israel simultaneously wants to live in peace as a liberal Jewish state without commiting any form of ethnic clensing; and achieve its manifest destiny of establishing a Jewish theocracy across Judea and Samaria.

These are deep questions that get to the core of what Israel is and stands for. Questions that are to be answered by the Israeli constitution in the 50s. That never happened because Israel was never able to agree on a constitution [0].

Right now, Israel is just reacting, without any long term strategic vision. Various factions are trying to use that chaos to advance their own long term vision.

[0] Which led to the big judicial reform constitutional crisis that was a giant political crisis before October.

istanbullu ,

Israel knows what it is doing. They have been very consistent about it for more than 80 years.

They will kill every Palestinian an Palestine, and they will try to kill eveyone in the vicinity who is not jewish. It a country of religious fanatics who use 3000 year old fairy tales to justify their actions.

homura1650 , (edited )

If that were the case then they would have written that into their constitution 70 years ago. And they wouldn’t have assasinated their own prime minister 30 years ago.

Heck, the current minister of national security Ben-Gvir was rejecting from mandatory constriction by the IDF, and convicted in an Israeli court of supporting (Jewish) terrorism after being indicted by an Israeli prosecutor.

These are not things that happen in a country that is unified in its goals.

StaySquared ,

“mowing the lawn” as the Israelis call it.

Btw from what I’ve witnessed, many Israelis dislike Orthodox Jews as much as they dislike Muslims and Christians. Israel is a weird place.

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

Israel simultaneously wants to live in peace as a liberal Jewish state without committing any form of ethnic cleansing; and achieve its manifest destiny of establishing a Jewish theocracy across Judea and Samaria.

A country at war with itself, much like the US.

alvvayson ,

For decades, Israel and the US (and European countries) have pursued a policy to destabilize middle eastern regimes.

People don’t realize this, but there was a wave of Arab nationalism that was killed by sponsoring Islamic extremists. Had that not happened, the middle east would be much more secular today than it is.

Israel attacking and destabilizing Lebanon and Syria and the US maintaining a dictator in Egypt are part of this strategy.

In turn, this leads to hate towards the West and Israel by the Muslims affected.

It won’t stop as long as American voters care much more about gas prices than about human rights. American politicians are willing to sponsor genocide to have some control on oil prices in order to win elections.

KoboldCoterie ,
@KoboldCoterie@pawb.social avatar

It won’t stop as long as American voters care much more about gas prices than about human rights. American politicians are willing to sponsor genocide to have some control on oil prices in order to win elections.

Who should we vote for to stop what’s going on? Please, enlighten me.

Kecessa ,

Sanders

But more seriously, vote everywhere for the most progressive people possible and vote strategically to get the most progressive person realistically electable when needed.

rayyy ,

Down-voted with deep regrets. A vote for Sanders, no matter how good he would be, is a vote to let Netanyahu “finish the job” in 2024.
The path to your goal is to vote progressives down ballot and really support them until they rise to congressional level where they can actually create change. Until then, vote for the candidate who has the best chance of winning and gets you closest to you goals. Beware, the trolls want to create division so their guy can walk right in.

Kecessa ,

Did you skip the “but more seriously” part and everything that came after right after I said “Sanders”? 🤔 Because I’m saying exactly what you’re saying.

Also, you can vote for Sanders so he keeps his position in the Senate so it’s actually not false that people need to vote for him.

Zoboomafoo ,

I refuse to vote for Sanders…

Because I don’t live in his state so I’m not allowed to.

He’s done great work convincing progressives that the best way to change the Democratic party is from the inside, and I hope it continues.

Kecessa ,

It’s a general “you”, I’m not talking about you as a person specifically.

alvvayson ,

I don’t think you really have a lot of choices to be honest.

You’d first need to get new candidates to win a primary and then a general and the required majorities are lacking almost everywhere.

A more fruitful approach is to actually change public opinion.

It’s a long uphill battle, but it’s happening.

KoboldCoterie ,
@KoboldCoterie@pawb.social avatar

I don’t think you really have a lot of choices to be honest.

Therein lies the problem. We don’t have a lot of choices. Voting for new, progressive candidates feels great and it’s nice to pat ourselves on the back and think we’re making a difference, but the fact of the matter is that voting for a candidate who has no realistic path to winning is only even a realistic option when the candidate with the ‘D’ next to their name is all but guaranteed to win. And yeah, I’d really love to be able to make a statement by splitting the leftist vote between the democratic candidate and a progressive one; I’d really love to tell the democrats to get fucked and vote for a progressive third-party for every seat, but right now is far from the time for that, especially in states where those races are actually close. The last thing we need is to pack the House and Senate with republicans who win something like 40/30/30 because we couldn’t unify behind someone who actually had a chance of winning.

Not to mention, we only get to vote in 1 state’s elections, and often times there aren’t even any progressive down-ballot candidates on the ballot to vote for.

alvvayson ,

I know a lot of people don’t like the American First Past the Post system, but to be honest, even in a proportional system like here in the Netherlands, you end up with very similar dynamics.

Truth is, progressives are always a small minority, in every country. Because they are always ahead of the curve on change.

In the US, this means that you only get a handful of progressives in the most progressive districts and never a really progressive national government.

In the Netherlands, this means progressives are always represented, but need to compromise to form a government. And often, they even get skipped and the centrist and conservative parties form a coalition.

Truth be told, Biden is as progressive as you could hope to get in the USA.

And, while I do think it is important to criticize him - and even threaten to not vote for him - to enable him to move more towards the left, it is also important to vote for him.

Progressives always win, not through getting majorities, but because they have the right ideas and eventually the other parties catch up to them.

For recent examples, gay marriage in the USA or marihuana legalization are now law in the USA.

I am 100% confident that American policy on Israel will also shift thanks to progressive voices. And it will not require a progressive majority.

KoboldCoterie ,
@KoboldCoterie@pawb.social avatar

I am 100% confident that American policy on Israel will also shift thanks to progressive voices. And it will not require a progressive majority.

I’d love to be proven wrong, but I don’t believe this will happen while Biden is president. Not to say I’m not going to vote for him - I’m not that stupid, but he’s made it pretty clear that he will stand with Israel more or less no matter what they do.

I do worry that he’s upsetting a lot of people to the point that they won’t vote for him, though, and that’s scary to me. He comes across as very weak when he capitulates to Israel this hard. He’s repeatedly said, “This is the line, don’t cross it!”, then when they do, he moves the line. If he loses to Trump in November, I’ll have a hard time not blaming Israel and his policies in dealing with them for that loss.

NoiseColor ,

You are not giving Arabs any credit for the current situation? Thats almost racist 😁

America cares less today about oil as it is self reliant.

alvvayson ,

Americans still care about the price of oil, which is set in a global market and where Saudi-Arabia and Russia have more influence than the USA.

Obviously, the extremist Arabs that overthrew their own leaders are also to blame. Where did I deny that?

small44 ,

Extremist arabs didn’t overthrew their leaders, the population overthrew their dictators and was hiding the fact of torturing and killing political oponents or even normal people critisizing the regimes

orrk ,

To be fair, how many secular leaders can you assassinate before they stop?

YourPrivatHater ,

For decades, Israel and the US (and European countries) have pursued a policy to destabilize middle eastern regimes.

You are aware that china and Russia do that even more. Supporting Terrorism, supporting Iran and their nuclear shitshow blaming everything on the west especially Israel… You get the point.

People don’t realize this, but there was a wave of Arab nationalism that was killed by sponsoring Islamic extremists. Had that not happened, the middle east would be much more secular today than it is.

Most of the terrorists, especially ISIS have not been supported by outside of middle east, but where fueled from within middle east because governments do government stuff. Hamas and Hezbolla are similar cases, especially because the antisemitism unites most of the Islamic countries against Israel

Israel attacking and destabilizing Lebanon and Syria and the US maintaining a dictator in Egypt are part of this strategy.

Hezbolla (Lebanon and Egypt) is constantly shooting rockets into residential areas and targeting hospitals. So Israel has a very very solid reason to strike them. And the Egyptian dictatorship is a dictatorship but one that at least on surface fights those terrorists, wich would probably gain majority in a democratic election… Like what happened in Gaza…

In turn, this leads to hate towards the West and Israel by the Muslims affected.

No the antisemitism in nowadays Islam was caused by Nazi Germanys propaganda into middle east. The anti west thing by the Soviet union. But yes its not helping to reduce the hate, but at this point there is no way to reduce this unless we would abolish Israel wich is absolutely not an option.

It won’t stop as long as American voters care much more about gas prices than about human rights. American politicians are willing to sponsor genocide to have some control on oil prices in order to win elections.

I haven’t seen USA sponsoring hamas or hezbolla and it will not stop ever, especially because even if you leave Israel to the terrorist, when they are done there you get to be the next target. There is no other way than to fight such groups.

SleezyDizasta ,

Israel bombs Lebanon because Hezbollah keeps committing terrorist attacks and launching missles from there, the same goes for Syria. Also, in what universe is helping keeping countries stable like Egypt destabilizing? You people are mind numbingly ignorant. The middle east was never secular or stable, it was always religiously extremist, violent, and oppressive. There was a slight blip in secularism during the British and French mandates and slightly afterwards, but as time moved on, the region just went back to the way it used to. What we view as islamic extremism is just normal islam. Secular muslims aren’t a thing. They’re considered extremely liberal and westernized in islamic countries.

istanbullu ,

Israel will try to kill every non-Jew in the Middle East. Their religion compels them.

NoiseColor ,

I don’t think that’s in their religion.

Plus the other side actually is saying that.

YourPrivatHater ,

This is the biggest BS i’ve read in a long time.

SleezyDizasta ,

About 20% of Israel’s population is not Jewish

gedaliyah ,
@gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

Lebanon (at least Hezbollah in Lebanon) began attacking Israel on Oct 8 in solidarity with Hamas. Things have gradually been escalating since then.

mikezane ,

Facts have no standing in this area of discussion.

NMeneses ,

As longs as inertia prevails in the world stage, sadly, I don’t see a near term future where a light might shine in the end of the tunnel for Palestine’s future.

But if it serves a consolation, simmering tensions are purging therein the Netanyahu’s regime. His close allies aren’t aligned with the PM’s vision of the plausibility of defeat of Hamas (as if the Israel’s anger agains Palestine had anything to do with Hamas; it’s was a fallacious pretext).

syd ,
@syd@lemy.lol avatar

There’s no reason for them to stop. No one standing against them. If I was them, I would do the same.

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