So is Israel just going to completely overtake Palestine?

SpaceCowboy , 3 days ago

I saw an article about them attacking Lebanon now.

Hezbollah, not Lebanon. Please don’t legitimize terrorist groups by considering them to be the government of the country they operate in. Lebanon has elections, please support democracy and it’s not consider Hezbollah as Lebanon’s government, even if those psychopaths have control over a significant portion of the country.

That being said, Nasrallah is probably under significant pressure to do something to help Hamas in some way. Last week he put out some threats against Israel. Israel put out counter threats. In all likelihood that’s where things will stay, neither side wants a war with the other.

The media is always saying a war is imminent. Remember when they were claiming China was going to invade Taiwan any minute? There’s probably some outlets that’re still are saying that sometimes. It gets clicks, views, and ratings.

Who knows they might be right this time (a stopped clock is right twice a day) but it seems doubtful.

So, where will it stop?

In terms of Gaza, Hamas is still holding Israeli hostages. It’s not going to stop as long as Hamas is holding Israelis hostage.

Hamas is likely making a lot of money from the suffering of Palestinians. So they don’t have much incentive to release the hostage and put an end to the conflict.

So it will continue on as the IDF goes house to house trying to find the people that Hamas took on October 7.

Eventually either the IDF will find all of the hostages or Hamas will release them. Then it will end.

gamermanh , 3 days ago

Eventually either the IDF will find all of the hostages or Hamas will release them. Then it will end.

Lol, good one.

bartolomeo , 3 days ago

Yes, they usually do it slowly to avoid suspicion but when the situation is convenient they go ahead and take a big bite out of Palestine.

https://suppo.fi/pictrs/image/99eb43eb-a80d-4082-93d7-7ae9f20afcc4.jpeg

That’s how they have been operating, even before the establishment of Israel:

Before the 1948 Arab-Israeli War broke out, the Carmeli Brigade’s 21 Battalion commander had repeatedly damaged the Al-Kabri aqueduct that furnished Acre with water, and when Arab repairs managed to restore water supply, then resorted to pouring flasks of typhoid and dysentery bacteria into the aqueduct, as part of a biological warfare programme. At some time in late April or early May 1948, - Jewish forces had cut the town’s electricity supply responsible for pumping water - a typhoid epidemic broke out. Israeli officials later credited the facility with which they conquered the town in part to the effects of the demoralization induced by the epidemic.[54]

Israel’s Carmeli forces attacked on May 16 and, after an ultimatum was delivered that, unless the inhabitants surrendered, ‘we will destroy you to the last man and utterly,’[55] the town notables signed an instrument of surrender on the night between 17–18 May 1948. 60 bodies were found and about three-quarters of the Arab population of the city (13,510 of 17,395) were displaced.[56]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acre,_Israel#1948_Palestine_War

It is evident that that is their modus operandi because now Gaza’s water system is destroyed, and I suspect they will take Gaza just like they took Akka.

Israel taking over Palestine has been the plan since the beginning, as the founding fathers of Israel themselves announced:

Zionist leaders, in particular David Ben-Gurion, viewed the acceptance of the [United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine] as a tactical step and a stepping stone to future territorial expansion over all of Palestine.

Then they started.

Between 1947 and 1949, at least 750,000 Palestinians from a 1.9 million population were made refugees beyond the borders of the state. Zionist forces had taken more than 78 percent of historic Palestine, ethnically cleansed and destroyed about 530 villages and cities, and killed about 15,000 Palestinians in a series of mass atrocities, including more than 70 massacres.

All the theatrics about Israel’s right to defend itself etc. are just cover for the long history of horrible crimes and human rights violations Israel has perpetrated (and continues to perpetrate). There is a reason that people are mad at Israel, and it has nothing to do with being Jewish.

So yea, Israel is going to continue overtaking Palestine, unless they start being held to international law like everyone else. Germany and USA impede on that process, but hopefully the rule of law will triumph because

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

Colour_me_triggered , 3 days ago

Basically the situation in Israel/Palestine is that Hamas has pretty much total iron first control of Gaza, and Israel has a very right wing government. The Israelis have vowed to destroy Hamas entirely, but Hamas is deeply entrenched in every aspect of life in Gaza so what Israel is doing is actually pretty much the only way to rid the region of Hamas, but it comes at an extreme cost and involves a lot of war crimes.

It probably is the only way to get rid of Hamas, but its going to cause so much resentment that peace in Gaza will be completely unattainable within your j or mine. But in short yes, they’re going to kill anyone with even loose ties to Hamas and if you’re a civilian standing too close, oh well.

bartolomeo , 3 days ago

Hamas has pretty much total iron first control of Gaza

Don’t you mean Israel has pretty much total iron first control of Gaza? Hamas does not control the borders, the monetary policy, electricity, water (via a racist system of permits being habitually denied), airspace, sea, population registry, international trade, ID cards, or travel to and from Gaza. Israel does. Israel even sells the drilling rights for natural gas off the coast of Gaza.

Colour_me_triggered , 3 days ago (edited 3 days ago)

Gaza has a border with Egypt as well. If Egypt were so inclined, they could open it and allow all sorts of trade and humanitarian relief. They could even set up a refugee camp to protect civilians from harm. They would rather not open the border because they don’t want Hamas to get a toe hold in Egypt.

Also as far as mineral rights go, the reason every partition plan has been shot down in the past is that the Palestinian side will not accept anything less than the entirety of Israel/Palestine and this has been the case going back to the first partition plan proposed by the league of nations in 1947. But as a result of not agreeing to any of the partition plans Palestine is not legally regarded as a country. And therefore doesn’t have mineral rights. Sucky but true.

bartolomeo , 3 days ago

Ok next item was “monetary policy”.

UnderpantsWeevil , 3 days ago

Gaza has a border with Egypt as well.

Not anymore. The IDF controls the strip of land between Gaza and Egypt and has secured it against any further aid crossing the border.

Maggoty , 3 days ago

That’s the problem isn’t it? Hamas was actually running a government. For reference about 13 percent of people in the US work for the government. Now think about their friends, contractors, and families. How high do you think that percentage is? How high does it become after you kill half that 13 percent while they’re just trying to distribute aid and run hospitals?

They absolutely know what they mean they say they’re going to destroy Hamas, but the West pictures Hamas solely as a bunch of fighters, separate from the hospitals, sewage departments, police, and etc.

UnderpantsWeevil , 3 days ago

Hamas has pretty much total iron first control of Gaza

I was under the impression the IDF had a bit of influence there, what with all the tanks and bombers and soldiers scouring every inch of the war-blasted landscape.

StaySquared , 3 days ago

It definitely cannot defeat Hezbollah. Much less combined with other parties, Hamas, Houthis, whatever is coming from Iraq. As far as I can tell… Israel has already lost. Mainstream media isn’t even providing its viewers/readers of the actual number of IDF casualties. It’s definitely not in the hundreds.

Also, I have a feeling that Middle East nations will begin uniting, abandoning Western powers - their influences.

SpaceCowboy , 3 days ago

Wow you went in deep down the rabbit hole there.

Dkarma , 3 days ago

Have you not read the Bible?

Go read what they originally did to the Canaanites…they’re going to do it again.

bartolomeo , 3 days ago

Can you just tell us? That’s a pretty big book.

rc__buggy , 3 days ago

Ever met a Canaanite? There’s your answer.

homura1650 , 3 days ago

The Israeli government has no idea what it is doing. Literally. The current government was a barely held together coalition prior to October 7. In the direct aftermath, they formed a unity government and war cabinet that collapsed last week.

Their prime minister has been indicated on corruption and bribertmy charges, which are currently on hold for obvious reasons. By most indications his primary motivation in this matter is to stay in power himself, with Israel’s national interests being secondary.

Individual members of IDF leadership have called Israel’s stated objectives “unachievable”.

Israel simultaneously wants to live in peace as a liberal Jewish state without commiting any form of ethnic clensing; and achieve its manifest destiny of establishing a Jewish theocracy across Judea and Samaria.

These are deep questions that get to the core of what Israel is and stands for. Questions that are to be answered by the Israeli constitution in the 50s. That never happened because Israel was never able to agree on a constitution [0].

Right now, Israel is just reacting, without any long term strategic vision. Various factions are trying to use that chaos to advance their own long term vision.

[0] Which led to the big judicial reform constitutional crisis that was a giant political crisis before October.

istanbullu , 3 days ago

Israel knows what it is doing. They have been very consistent about it for more than 80 years.

They will kill every Palestinian an Palestine, and they will try to kill eveyone in the vicinity who is not jewish. It a country of religious fanatics who use 3000 year old fairy tales to justify their actions.

homura1650 , 3 days ago (edited 3 days ago)

If that were the case then they would have written that into their constitution 70 years ago. And they wouldn’t have assasinated their own prime minister 30 years ago.

Heck, the current minister of national security Ben-Gvir was rejecting from mandatory constriction by the IDF, and convicted in an Israeli court of supporting (Jewish) terrorism after being indicted by an Israeli prosecutor.

These are not things that happen in a country that is unified in its goals.

StaySquared , 3 days ago

“mowing the lawn” as the Israelis call it.

Btw from what I’ve witnessed, many Israelis dislike Orthodox Jews as much as they dislike Muslims and Christians. Israel is a weird place.

samus12345 , 3 days ago

Israel simultaneously wants to live in peace as a liberal Jewish state without committing any form of ethnic cleansing; and achieve its manifest destiny of establishing a Jewish theocracy across Judea and Samaria.

A country at war with itself, much like the US.

Linkerbaan , 3 days ago

Israel wants to take over far more. They have litarally said they wanted to take over Turkey.

This stops like how the Nazis were stopped from expanding their Lebensraum. By asking them very nicely to stop and explaining they are mean.

Maggoty , 3 days ago

The sarcasm is strong in you today. :)

olafurp , 3 days ago (edited 3 days ago)

Sorry, meant to reply to a Zionist comment justifying the Genocide. My sincere apologies.

To actually answer the question:

The war with Hezbollah is in my opinion likely. It has popular support among the Israelis and Netenyahu has been doing whatever to stave off an election. It’ll still be an enormously costly war which will fill people with regret a couple of months after starting it.

There’s another angle where he’ll say “If you vote for me I’ll get rid of Hezbollah once and for all like I did with Hamas” and then delay until he can say “Circumstances have changed” which I think is a better move.

PLEASE ASSUME EVERYTHING BELOW THIS LINE IS OUT OF CONTEXT AND MEANT AS A RESPONSE TO A GENOCIDAL ZIONIST BECAUSE I’M AN IDIOT

---

What kind of bubble do you live in? If you take 2 million people, close their airspace, ports and land borders they’re not going to be happy.

On top of that Israel does the following:

• imprison kids for throwing rocks at soldiers wearing armor
• take people’s houses, most recently in Sheikh Jarrah
• Ban farmers from using water, promise water from other sources and don’t deliver.
• Close West Bank Airport
• Settle lands in he West Bank.
• Make Palestinians go to Military court with 99% conviction rate instead of a civil court.
• Administrative detetention without giving any reason. (Because classified)
• Withold evidence from courts that’s used to convict them. (Because classified)
• Settlements are both within the 1948 borders and even within the Olso accord Green line.
• Beat people up and throw tear gas that go play at Al-Aqsa mosque.
• Don’t convict any settlers of violence.
• Fondle women at check points when they open the trunk of their cars.
• Limit imports to single item per pallet.
• Limit work visas.
• Limit family reunification as a way to immigrate across the border.
• Random checkpoints that destroy tourism such as in Jericho.
• Open policy of disproportial response to every reaction the Palestinians have.
• Raid refugee camps and destroy their roads like in Jenin.
• Kill journalists that cover the story such as Shireen Abu Akleh
• Don’t even convict the murdered because he was a soldier.
• Oh and kill/wound 5% of Gaza, half of which are children, for good measure.

When people are suffocating because someone has their foot on their throat they react. Nobody should be surprised that Oct 7 happened. Especially after Israel was warned many times that they would do something if they continue raiding one of the holiest sites in Islam.

douglasg14b , 3 days ago

Literally the first thing you do on NoStupidQuestions is attack the person asking the question.

And then go on a rant that doesn’t actually address the question. I honestly don’t even know if you read the same OP that I did here…

Cmon, that’s not acceptable behavior here.

olafurp , 3 days ago

Sorry, I meant to reply to a comment

andrewta , 3 days ago

In 1948 when Israel was formed as a nation state, the borders were set at that time. It would not have been a problem but terrorists (think Hamas and other groups like that) kept going across the border into Israel and killing and committing other crimes. Israel fought back.

As Israel fought back more cross border raids happened.

Israel puts up the iron dome ( understandable because of the missiles being launched at them).

Israel pushed their borders to try to get some breathing room. I disagree with their belief the area should be settled. Make it a DMZ ? Fine, that’s a legitimate usage. But to settle it? Now they are (in my opinion) expanding their territory and not creating a buffer zone.

But I’m not sure what the answer is.

Leave Palestine alone and allow hamas to keep doing cross border raids?

Keep responding to the individual cross border raids and attack hamas? That doesn’t solve the problem because hamas will keep coming.

Put other nations militaries on the border? Hamas will just call that an act of aggression by those countries and attack those militaries.

Hamas has a belief that all Jews everywhere should be killed. So where would the Jews even go?

Just expand their nation ( Israel) to the ocean? Ok then where do the Palestinians go?

I’m not sure what the answer is.

The state of Palestine was split to create two countries Palestine and Israel. Because historically that was the Jewish homeland. But how do we solve this current problem. I have no idea

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/574b882b-d05e-4013-be40-c0bbaebda5a0.jpeg

markko , 3 days ago (edited 3 days ago)

You need to read more about this subject from a *less biased source.

JeffreyOrange , 3 days ago

For example?

orrk , 3 days ago

and thus you justified the 14 words.

“We must secure the existence of our people and a future for Jewish children”

we must slaughter Palestinians, because only then can we be safe!

meldrik , 3 days ago

Which neighbouring nations approved of those borders and does Israel respect those borders today?

StaySquared , 3 days ago

The borders were technically a theory… an idea. It wasn’t even officially established until Israel gained military might, if I remember correctly.

Tryptaminev , 3 days ago

Colonial league of nations declare Israeli state after later to become Israeli terrorists have terrorized Palestinians and the British troops to force them out. Palestinians are not asked on the matter if they want to give those terrorists a fascist ethnostate on their land.

Fascist ethnostate gets declared, starts ethically cleansing hundreds of thousands of people.

Some neighbouring countries try to prevent that.

75 years of propaganda and brainwashing and people like you spin it like the Israelis are the victims, even while they are currently committing an even worse genocide and ethnic cleansing than they used to do back then and in between.

Linkerbaan , 3 days ago

Israel was formed from a combination of terrorist groups like Lehi and Irgun.

Israel is like the power ranger form of terrorism.

istanbullu , 3 days ago

Israel is the terrorist. Israel was established by murdering and displacing the people who lived there.

Genocide and mass murder are the core values of the Israeli state.

andrewta , 3 days ago

Yeah it would have nothing to do with the fact that after world war 2 no one would take in the Jews. So a Jewish state was created. Nah nothing to do with that at all.

istanbullu , 2 days ago

Did they have to murder and displace millions of Palestinians?

olafurp , 3 days ago

What kind of bubble do you live in? If you take 2 million people, close their airspace, ports and land borders they’re not going to be happy.

On top of that Israel does the following:

• imprison kids for throwing rocks at soldiers wearing armor
• take people’s houses, most recently in Sheikh Jarrah
• Ban farmers from using water, promise water from other sources and don’t deliver.
• Close West Bank Airport
• Settle lands in he West Bank.
• Make Palestinians go to Military court with 99% conviction rate instead of a civil court.
• Administrative detetention without giving any reason. (Because classified)
• Withold evidence from courts that’s used to convict them. (Because classified)
• Settlements are both within the 1948 borders and even within the Olso accord Green line.
• Beat people up and throw tear gas that go play at Al-Aqsa mosque.
• Don’t convict any settlers of violence.
• Fondle women at check points when they open the trunk of their cars.
• Limit imports to single item per pallet.
• Limit work visas.
• Limit family reunification as a way to immigrate across the border.
• Random checkpoints that destroy tourism such as in Jericho.
• Open policy of disproportial response to every reaction the Palestinians have.
• Raid refugee camps and destroy their roads like in Jenin.
• Kill journalists that cover the story such as Shireen Abu Akleh
• Don’t even convict the murdered because he was a soldier.
• Oh and kill/wound 5% of Gaza, half of which are children, for good measure.

When people are suffocating because someone has their foot on their throat they react. Nobody should be surprised that Oct 7 happened. Especially after Israel was warned many times that they would do something if they continue raiding one of the holiest sites in Islam.

nooneescapesthelaw , 4 days ago

It will stop when they get everything from the nile to the euphrates river, also known as greater israel. The bible defines Israel as from the nile to the euphrates, they will not rest until they have “settled” the entire region

Aolley , 4 days ago

Sounds like the CCP approach to twain with the "but a ‘kingdom’ in the past had this territory so we are entitled to it.

sparkle , 4 days ago

Even worse, because the Kingdom of Israel stopped existing 3000 years ago. Modern Israelis have zero connection to ancient Israel

SleezyDizasta , 3 days ago

The Palestinians also have zero connection to the land. The Palestinian identity was artificially created around the same time as the modern Israeli identity with the intent to prevent the creation of a Jewish state. There was never a sovereign entity called Palestine at any point in history. Before the current states, there was the British mandate and before that the Ottoman Empire ruled the region for a few centuries. The Ottomans and the empires that preceded them had completely different divisions for this region. The modern borders are based on nothing historical.

naevaTheRat , 3 days ago

Yeah but you understand the difference between the state and the people who lived there right? Like Jewish settlers came from Europe, to the place Palestinian people were and had been living in.

They have a connection to the state of Palestinian (inasmuch as it exists given differing degrees of recognition) by way of having moral rights to continue living on the land they live on regardless of what some lines on a map call it.

SleezyDizasta , 3 days ago

This idea that Israel came to be a bunch of Europeans sailing to a country and taking it over is outright false. This brain dead myth is mostly supported by American Marxists who want to push the false comparison with how the US came to be. They’re nothing alike.

The Jews in Israel were already there. They’re indigenous to the land. Their history goes back thousands of years. Same goes from the Christians and other religious minorities there. islam is not endemic to the region, it came through islamic conquest, colonization, and oppression from the Arabian peninsula. The majority of Israeli Jews are not European. They’re from the region. On top of the Jews that already lived there, the islamic world exiled nearly 1 million Jews to Israel for no other reason than being Jewish. European Jews only make up around 30% of Jews in Israel, and a good chunk of those are recent immigrants in the same way most people immigrate today (Indians moving to the US for work, Afghanis moving to Europe as refugees, Japanese moving to Thailand for leisure, etc).

sparkle , 3 days ago (edited 3 days ago)

You’re just flat out lying at this point lol. 21-23% of the entire Israeli Jewish population is first-generation immigrants; 30-35% is second-generation, direct offspring of immigrants; 30-35% is third-generation; 10-15% is fourth-generation; under 5% is fifth-generation or beyond (which would include Jews who lived there since before Aliyah). These are numbers are from the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics. There’s also statistics that rather say 40-45% are third-generation with much less being fourth-generation or beyond, but with around the same amount or slightly less being first and second generation – I find the former estimates far more reasonable though. It’s estimated around 90-97% of Israeli Jews are descended from immigrants since 1900.

A majority of Israeli Jews are descended from immigrants of several Aliyah (immigration to “Zion” from outside of the lands of Palestine/Israel, practically starting from 1882 but mostly ramping up around the start of the British/Israeli oppression of Palestinians in the region in the early and mid 1900s). Even the most conservative estimates say that around 50-70% of Israel’s Jewish population growth since 1900 came from immigration, with most of the rest of the population growth coming from recent immigrants having children. And those are really conservative estimates, the actual amount is likely much higher than that.

A significant portion of Israeli Jews came from immigration in the 90s, especially from the Soviet Union after its collapse – 1.4-1.6 million Jews (compared to Israel’s total current Jewish population of around 7.4 million) immigrated to Israel following the collapse of the USSR. Over a fifth of the entire Israeli Jewish population in just the span of one generation. Yet second- and third-generation Israeli Jews make up like 3-3.5x as much still.

It’s crazy for you to try to state that modern Israelis aren’t primarily (nearly exclusively) descended from relatively recent immigrants who displaced (and outright genocided) the native population. You straight up just made that up without consulting any history/statistics, not even Israel’s own statistics lol. Palestine faced a colonization and replacement by Jewish immigrants – according to the Jewish Virtual Library, 8% of people in the region were Jewish in 1882; then 11-13% after the end of WW1, after the adoption of a Zionist policy for Palestine and occupation by the UK (see the Balfour Declaration); then 32% in 1947 after several Aliyah; then in 1948 – the year the Israel was formally established and immigrants were shipped in from all over the globe, and the year European immigrants to Israel started all-out total war and genocide against Palestinians – that number jumped to 82%. It is not Jews’ “indigenous land”, 93%+ of people in the region were Arab Muslims at the time of the first Aliyah, hundreds of thousands compared to the 9,000 Jews and even less Christians. Jews hadn’t been the majority in the region since the 4th century, Arabs & Muslims have been the majority since before the Magna Carta, the Crusades, European Feudalism, they were most of the population when France just started to exist.

Considering the actual facts of the situation, your justification basically becomes “colonization and apartheid in the modern day is okay because some other people they identified with lived there 1,500-3,000 years ago”, in which case I have some bad news for like, 95% of Europeans, Middle Easterners, and Asians, who all exist on lands which were someone elses in that same time period. Ethnonationalism with feeling you have a “right” to certain land you have no actual connection to based on some ancient “predecessor” civilization that had those lands stolen from them before Hindu-Arabic numerals existed is a strong hint that you’re in the wrong (see: Nazism). Modern Jews are about as indigenous to Israel as the modern Japanese are to Korea, or modern Turkish are to Mongolia.

Zionism is modern-day ethnonationalism and colonialism by predominantly non-Levantine peoples (more than half of those being primarily European in ancestry). Its purpose is creating and justifying an ethnostate where Jews are superior and have rights that other groups don’t have – and such things are cemented in the Israeli constitution and law. To exist, Israel requires relegating non-Jews to second-class personhood and requires (or required at some recent point in time) commiting acts of genocide towards certain non-Jews; abolishing that would be abolishing the concept of Israel and Zionism as a whole. There is no real moral defense of the state of Israel.

SleezyDizasta , 3 days ago

Who is exactly is making such claims?

Abnorc , 3 days ago

This guy in the comments.

Monument , 4 days ago

Yeah - it’s about regional control, and defensive positions.

This comment is sort of a continuation of this one, but not exactly. (Sorry about the link to my instance, I’m new and don’t know how to do the thing.)

The U.S. has long needed a bully in the area to prevent the Middle East from being too unified, so the west can get relatively inexpensive access to its oil.

The state of play right now is that the U.S. actually produces enough petroleum for its own needs, but our western allies do not, and supplying them with enough oil will raise the cost to an unacceptable level/a level where they’ll have to channel money to the Middle East (which hates the U.S. for its meddling, or to Russia, which also hates the U.S.)

In about 10-15 years, technology and renewables will advance to a point where oil demand is going to have decreased to the point where the U.S. can supply all of its needs and those of its western allies without jacking the price up.

That means the U.S. won’t need a bully. But it will mean that the U.S. will cut funding to Israel, and more or less stop coming to their defense. Israel’s plan is to push out every non-Jew, using Zionism as an excuse for awful statecraft, and they’re going to push their borders to easily defensible geographic areas.
Once they do that, they’re going to basically become North Korea of the Middle East - armed to the teeth and hard to get into. Because if they don’t, everyone they’ve been bullying for the past hundred years (yes, this started before the declaration of statehood), is going to wipe them from the map - potentially leading to them launching the nukes they keep pretending they don’t have, so they don’t have to undergo international monitoring.

Assuming, of course, the plot by other countries to destabilize the U.S. fails and U.S. is still major player by the time Israel’s plan is accomplished. If the destabilization effort succeeds, we may see a full scale war against Israel before their aims are achieved.

That’s my take on it, anyway. They won’t stop because they don’t think they can stop, due to how horrible they’ve been. (At the behest of the U.S., who will begin dropping them once their usefulness has ended.)

grrgyle , 4 days ago

Reminds of the accounts of people who owned enslaved people being afraid to let them go because of how they thought once freed they would turn around and slaughter their former “masters” because how could they not.

Except that didn’t happen.

Monument , 4 days ago

A bunch of folks without many rights, property, education, or jobs in a country where they are basically hostages is quite different than Iran.

grrgyle , 3 days ago

It is, you’re right. It’s kind of a poor comparaison now that I see it spelled out

SleezyDizasta , 3 days ago

The U.S. has long needed a bully in the area to prevent the Middle East from being too unified, so the west can get relatively inexpensive access to its oil.

Is there any evidence to directly prove this claim? This sounds like a made up justification to validate your own opinions. The Middle East isn’t divided by the US, it’s divided by its own history of imperialism, colonization, oppression and violence based on religious and ethnic lines accross the centuries. There’s really no incentive for the US keep the Middle East divided, not to mention that oil producing countries are already united through OPEC.

Besides, why would the US need a bully when it’s directly allied with Gulf states? Not only that but those states are also allied with Israel. Who exactly is bullying who? The only agreed upon bully in the region is Iran, it’s actually the uniting factor between the Gulf states and the Israelis. Not to mention that the US doesn’t need a bully because it’s more than capable of doing what it wants.

The state of play right now is that the U.S. actually produces enough petroleum for its own needs, but our western allies do not, and supplying them with enough oil will raise the cost to an unacceptable level/a level where they’ll have to channel money to the Middle East (which hates the U.S. for its meddling, or to Russia, which also hates the U.S.)

You understand that it’s not only American allies that rely on Middle Eastern oil, right? China, India, Southeast Asia, and so on all rely on Middle Eastern oil and they all have a vested interest in keeping it flowing. If anything, the US is incentivized to sell its own oil since it’s a net exporter.

In about 10-15 years, technology and renewables will advance to a point where oil demand is going to have decreased to the point where the U.S. can supply all of its needs and those of its western allies without jacking the price up.

Again, is there any source that backs up this prediction?

But it will mean that the U.S. will cut funding to Israel, and more or less stop coming to their defense.

This idea that Israel only exists due to US funding is a myth. Israel won all its major wars by itself and it has one of the world’s largest and most resilient economies. US aid, which is almost entirely in the form of loans or weapons contracts, account for less than 1% of Israel’s GDP.

Israel’s plan is to push out every non-Jew, using Zionism as an excuse for awful statecraft, and they’re going to push their borders to easily defensible geographic areas.

20% of Israel’s citizens aren’t Jewish. Also do you even know what Zionism is?

Because if they don’t, everyone they’ve been bullying for the past hundred years (yes, this started before the declaration of statehood), is going to wipe them from the map - potentially leading to them launching the nukes they keep pretending they don’t have, so they don’t have to undergo international monitoring.

This is historically illiterate point of view. First of all, Israel isn’t the bully in this conflict, especially before statehood. If you look at the actual history, you’ll how muslims in the region collaborated with the Nazis to help eradicate the Jews during WWII or how the Arab world rejected the 1947 UN peace plan and invaded Israel with the intention to destroy it or again in 1967 during the six day war or again in 1973 Yom Kippur war or the 1920 Nebi Musa riots against Jews in Jerusalem or the 1921 Jaffa riots or the Jaffa deportations by the Ottomans in 1917 or the 1929 riots and massacres (including the Hebron Massacre which destroyed the ancient community there) or the insane number of Palestinian terrorist groups and their attacks on civilians. The number is comically large that there are entire databases dedicated just recording all of them:

https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/comprehensive-listing-of-terrorism-victims-in-israel

Hell, even Wikipedia can’t fit all of them in a single article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorist_incidents_in_Israel_by_year

Ffs, the Palestinian leadership at the time, which is arguably the foundation of the modern Palestinian national identity, literally cooperated with the Nazis to a comical degree. The leader at the time, Amin al-Husseini, and his administration literally flew out to Germany and personally met with Hitler. There they both expressed praise and support for each other, and declared desire for cooperation to reach their mutual goals of defeating the British and genociding the Jews. Amin al-Husseini directly told Hitler that Jews shouldn’t get a national home, that they were natural allies in their fight against the Jews, and that Fascism is a righteous ideology. Hitler was so impressed that he called him the most important leader in the Middle East and an Aryan because he was white, blone, and had blue eyes. The thing is that muslims at home celebrated the new ties with the axis powers and cooperation between went through the roof. The Palestinian identity was quite literally founded on antisemitism.

Do I need to keep going? I hope not. Keep in mind, this is all history. You can look all of this up yourself to verify.

we may see a full scale war against Israel before their aims are achieved.

We have already seen this play out at least three times. All of these wars were coalition wars provoked by the muslim Arabs seeking the full destruction of Israel, and every time Israel won.

That’s my take on it, anyway. They won’t stop because they don’t think they can stop, due to how horrible they’ve been.

What a bad take. The reason they’re still fighting is because they’re still being attacked.

Monument , 3 days ago

Oooh. I attracted a 1-day old account that conveniently doesn’t know about U.S. statecraft toward the Middle East for the last 70 years, doesn’t know about the long history of arms transfers to Israel, doesn’t know about the Balfour Declaration, the Jewish terrorism against Britain and Palestine until Britain left the area, or the genocides that happened as soon as Britain stopped offering protection to the Palestinians. You conveniently seem to fail to understand geopolitics in any meaningful contexts.
And then you “Source?” my (very well informed) opinions.

lol. No. Don’t waste my time.

SleezyDizasta , 3 days ago

Lol imagine feeling so attacked by someone calling out and criticizing your blatantly made up and ignorant claims that you actually resort to a toddler level insult where you call me stupid, call yourself “well informed” (lmao), and then put yourself on the back for it as if you actually did anything more than clown yourself. I was right on the money, you don’t actually have any idea what you’re talking about. You just regurgitate the propaganda you consume on echo chambers like Lemmy, and then make up stuff to fill the gaps. But I agree, I won’t waste your time because that would mean I would be wasting my time on somebody who doesn’t actually bring anything of value. Now scurry back to your echo chamber before the big scary knowledge comes and destroys your ignorant worldviews. Shoo, go on then

Monument , 3 days ago (edited 3 days ago)

Support your claims.

Edit: With like, actual sources.

And I didn’t call you stupid. I insinuated that your motives were suspect and that you are dishonest. But I am beginning to think you lack the ability to actually make supportable claims or debate people - which would probably mean … eh. shrug

SleezyDizasta , 3 days ago

Name the claim and I’ll provide you with a source.

bartolomeo , 3 days ago

8 hour old account with 42 comments…

I really hope it’s a hasbara account working hard and not someone with such an unbelievable capacity for missing the point.

Tryptaminev , 3 days ago

The Middle East isn’t divided by the US, it’s divided by its own history of imperialism, colonization, oppression and violence based on religious and ethnic lines accross the centuries. There’s really no incentive for the US keep the Middle East divided, not to mention that oil producing countries are already united through OPEC.

Ahh yes. The Middle Easts own history. Clearly has nothing to do with French, British or US being the colonizing entities… And after all why would the US be interested in dividing a region that is connecting 3 continents and has the mos accessible of the main strategic ressources of the past two centuries.

And of course all the plans of the US that specifically talked about destroying nations like Iraq and Syria and the invasion of Iraq to do exactly that… All coincidences! Who would be so mean to assume this to be part of larger strategies?

SleezyDizasta , 3 days ago

This is such a brainless and oversimplified ideological point of view. If you actually bothered to look into the region, you would clearly see that there’s a lot more going on. For example:

1. The Ottoman Empire genocided the Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians and a bunch of other minorities leaving them all to resent the Turks… especially since Turkey still officially denies that any of them even happened
2. Turkey actively oppresses and squashes any attempt for Kurds to maintain their identity, let alone gain independence which leads them to hate the Turks. Just FYI, the Kurdish language, clothing, and culture was banned in Turkey until the 1980s.
3. Turkey illegally occupies half of Cyprus under the pretext of “protecting the Turkish minorities”, and both Greece and Cyprus hate them for it because they’ve broken their treaties and are illegally occupying half of the country
4. Syrians hate Turkey too because it invaded the north and still occupies parts of it
5. The Turks hate Arabs and vice versa because Arabs view the Turks as colonizers turned heathens since they’re now secular and allow a bunch of things not allowed in islam, and the Turks view the Arabs as backwards religious fundamentalists who leech of them since there are millions Arab of refugees in Turkey
6. Kuwait hates Iraq because it invaded in the 90s
7. Iran and Iraq don’t like each other because of the Iran-Iraq war in the 80s
8. The Iraqi Kurds hate the Arabs because Saddam Hussein genocided them
9. The Sunni and Shia in Iraq hate each other because they’re different sects of the same religion, and oh they fought wars over it too
10. Yemen, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon DESPISE Iran because it actively funds and arms terrorist militias that constantly terrorize them, steal their wealth, and keep their countries into unstable failed states
11. Saudi Arabia and the Gulf countries hate Iran because they’re Shia and because they keep threatening their oil exports in the
12. Saudi Arabia hates the Shia in Yemen (the Houthis)
13. The Yemeni people hate Saudi Arabia because of the war they led against them
14. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the UAE, and Bahrain all severed ties with Qatar in 2017 because it funds terrorist groups inside their borders and because it uses Al Jazeera to pump out propaganda against them. In the case of Saudi Arabia, the mutual hatred got so bad that the royal family actually proposed digging a moat around Qatar to turn it into an island
15. All of the islamic countries in the Middle East hate Israel because it’s Jewish
16. Egypt and Turkey don’t like each other because Turkey is trying to claim the EEZ of the eastern Mediterranean, some of which is Egypt’s
17. Armenia and Azerbaijan hate each other because Azerbaijan denies the Armenian genocide, because on is Christian and the other is muslim, and because of a territorial dispute created by Stalin that they’ve been fighting over for the past 30 years.
18. Georgia hates Armenia, despite both of them being Christian nations, because they supported Russia’s invasion of Georgia in 2008
19. Kuwait hates Palestine because they supported Saddam Hussein’s invasion in the 90s, which led Kuwait to expel all 350,000 Palestinians from its territory
20. Jordan hates Palestine because they tried to overthrow the government when they took them in as refugees. This series of events was so bad it became known as black September
21. Syria doesn’t like Palestine because they tried to overthrow the government during the Syrian civil war
22. Egypt doesn’t like Palestine because they used the Sinai to commit terrorist attacks and they tried to overthrow the government. It got so bad that they joined Israel in their blockade against Gaza
23. Saudi Arabia and the UAE also don’t like Palestine because despite all the numerous military, economic, and political aid… their efforts blew up in their faces. The UAE ended up recognizing Israel and Saudi Arabia released a 3 part documentary featuring one of their top diplomats that went through the history of Saudi Arabia’s support for Palestine and how the Palestinian leaders were liers, cheaters, and backstabbers
24. Georgia doesn’t like Turkey because of its Ottoman past
25. All the caucuses countries hate Russia because of their genocides and imperialism
26. Syria hates Israel because they occupy Golan Heights
27. Lebanon hates Israel because they invaded to stomp out Hezbollah
28. Israel doesn’t like any of it’s neighbors because they’re Arabs and they all supported Palestine
29. Israel also doesn’t like Lebanon specifically because of Hezbollah
30. Iran and Israel hate each other because of religious fundamentalism
31. Iranian people, especially the minorities, HATE their government because it’s theocratic and their government hates them back because the people are secular
32. Israel doesn’t like Jordan, Syria, Egypt, or Lebanon because they invaded it before
33. Christians hate muslims because they’ve been persecuting them
34. Kurds in Syria don’t like the Arabs because they also tried to suppress them
35. Turkey and Israel have a love hate relationship based on Netanyahu’s and Erdogan’s mood swings.

The list goes on and on. No matter how recent or how far back you go, this region has ALWAYS been unstable, violent, and tyrannical. This because it’s in the crossroads of 3 continents like you said, but also because of geography and culture that reinforces the same cycles. Western powers did play a role, but trying to blame all the division, violence, and hatred in that region on the West is just ignorant.

Tryptaminev , 3 days ago

1…

And Israel and the EU help Azerbaijan to continue ethnic cleansing of Armenians, in particular Israel by sending drones in exchange for Azerbaijani oil

2…

The Kurdish identity was deliberately squashed by the Western imperialists France and UK when they drew the borders after the fall of the Ottoman empire

3…

Turkey went into Cyprus when a western aided fascist Greek military junta government tried to take over Cyprus and make it part of Greece with ethnic cleansing against the Turks in Cyprus. Calling it an illegal occupation is again a western imperialist narrative ignoring the complicity in attempted ethnic cleansing or worse genocide by the Greek fascist military junta government of the time. In fact Turkey stepping in was pivotal to the fascist military junta falling apart and Greece returning to Democracy.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus

So already in your first three points you are showing either a lack of understanding, or deliberately downplaying the effects of western imperialist rule and its continuation into today. Armenians are allies of Palestine as they understand that they are victim of the same forces. In particular the Israel-Azerbaijan axis shows that it is not about religion, but about classic imperialist motives of ressources, power and money.

SleezyDizasta , 2 days ago

And Israel and the EU help Azerbaijan to continue ethnic cleansing of Armenians, in particular Israel by sending drones in exchange for Azerbaijani oil

This is blatantly false. France and Greece, for example, explicitly supported Armenia and the rest of the EU and NATO was largely neutral except for Turkey because they were dealing with Covid lockdowns.

The Kurdish identity was deliberately squashed by the Western imperialists France and UK when they drew the borders after the fall of the Ottoman empire

This is true but the squashing of the Kurds didn’t start with the West nor did end there, they merely continued something that already existed. The Ottoman Empire and the Arab empires before it were all explicitly suppressed the Kurds.

Turkey went into Cyprus when a western aided fascist Greek military junta government tried to take over Cyprus and make it part of Greece with ethnic cleansing against the Turks in Cyprus. Calling it an illegal occupation is again a western imperialist narrative ignoring the complicity in attempted ethnic cleansing or worse genocide by the Greek fascist military junta government of the time. In fact Turkey stepping in was pivotal to the fascist military junta falling apart and Greece returning to Democracy.

Such embarrassing ignorance. This is from the very wiki article that you linked:

In 1983 the Turkish Cypriot assembly declared independence of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Immediately upon this declaration Britain convened a meeting of the United Nations Security Council to condemn the declaration as “legally invalid”. United Nations Security Council Resolution 541 (1983) considered the “attempt to create the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is invalid, and will contribute to a worsening of the situation in Cyprus”. It went on to state that it “considers the declaration referred to above as legally invalid and calls for its withdrawal”.

The international community condemns Turkey’s illegal occupation of Cyprus. There is a reason why no country on earth except for the occupier, Turkey, recognizes this fake puppet state as a country. Even Turkey’s other puppet, Azerbaijan, which is the most loyal of Turkey’s allies doesn’t recognize it.

Not only is the international community unanimously against Turkey, but they also violated the Treaty of Guaranteed of 1960. This was a joint agreement between Turkey, Cyprus, Greece, and the UK regarding the protection and territorial integrity of Cyprus. Turkey was one four principal signatories and one of the three supposed protectorates of Cyprus, and they only signed the treaty a few years before their occupation.

This is taken directly from the Treaty of Guarantee of 1960:

**Article II. **

Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom, taking note of the undertakings of the Republic of Cyprus set out in Article I of the present Treaty, recognise and guarantee the independence, territorial integrity and security of the Republic of Cyprus, and also the state of affairs established by the Basic Articles of its Constitution. Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom likewise undertake to prohibit, so far as con cerns them, any activity aimed at promoting, directly or indirectly, either union of Cyprus with any other State or partition of the Island. **Article IV.**In the event of a breach of the provisions of the present Treaty, Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom undertake to consult together with respect to the representations or measures necessary to ensure observance of those provisions.

In so far as common or concerted action may not prove possible, each of the three guaranteeing Powers reserves the right to take action with the sole aim of • re-establishing the state of affairs created by the present Treaty.

You can read the full treaty right here: peacemaker.un.org/…/CY GR TR_600816_Treaty of Gua…

As you can see Turkey is in clear violation of this treaty. It is refusing to cooperate with the other protectorates of this treaty and it is directly violating Cyprus’ sovereignty and territorial integrity.

But actually gets even worse because the Turkish speaking Cypriots want to reunite with their Greek neighbors and unify the island, and there are have been ongoing demonstrations by the native people there for DECADES against Turkish occupation:

en.wikipedia.org/…/2011_Turkish_Cypriot_protests (50,000 to 80,000 people turned out, that’s about 1/3 of the 170,000 native Turkish speaking Cypriots) theguardian.com/…/rising-anger-with-turkey-drives…theguardian.com/…/erdogan-met-by-protests-from-tu…cyprus-mail.com/…/hundreds-of-turkish-cypriots-pr…apnews.com/…/europe-middle-east-government-and-po…apnews.com/…/Turkish-Cypriots-protest-Turkey's-'u…

What does Turkey do in response to this very clear opposition from the native Turkish speaking Cypriots who want them to leave, respect the treaties they’ve signed, and want to unite with the rest of the island? That’s right Turkey sends in over 100,000 non native Turkish residents to occupy the island: assembly.coe.int/nw/xml/…/X2H-Xref-ViewHTML.asp?F…. www.mfa.gov.cy/mfa/Embassies/…/page74_en?OpenDocu…

Which by the way is a clear violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention’s Article 49 which includes:

Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.

www.un.org/en/…/Doc.33_GC-IV-EN.pdf

Calling Turkey’s illegal occupation of Northern Cyprus anything but that shows that you’re either a historically ignorant, a bootlicker, or an authoritarian extremist like a Marxist or Fascist. Though in your case, it’s probably all 3.

So already in your first three points you are showing either a lack of understanding, or deliberately downplaying the effects of western imperialist rule and its continuation into today.

I wonder how it feels to be confidentially incorrect. I can’t really tell if this a projection or just a lack of self awareness.

Armenians are allies of Palestine as they understand that they are victim of the same forces. In particular the Israel-Azerbaijan axis shows that it is not about religion, but about classic imperialist motives of ressources, power and money.

Actually this isn’t true. Israel and Armenia are pretty neutral towards each other. Armenia was the only country in West Asia, other than Israel, to not recognize Palestine as a country. Actually they only did so yesterday, and everybody sees this as a tit for tat for Israel signing that arms contract with Azerbaijan back in 2012 where they gave them drones and other military equipment (which the Azeri dictator Aliyev used against them in 2020) over the next few years in exchange for their oil (which makes up 40-60% of their oil imports) and having Azerbaijan and Turkey remain allies against Iran… but despite this there’s calls in Israel to recognize the Armenian genocide and talks in Armenia to buy Israeli weapons: …globes.co.il/…/article-armenia-mulls-procuring-i…thejc.com/…/why-israel-must-now-recognise-the-arm…

Armenia used to be a strong Russian ally in hopes of having Russia protect it from Azerbaijan, and it’s big ally Turkey, a NATO member. However, when Azerbaijan attacked and Armenia invoked it’s defense clause, Russia refused to help. Not only that but it’s puppet Belarus, publicly came out in support Azerbaijan. Because of this Armenia has publicly announced it’s intent to withdraw from the CSTO and draw closer to the West, especially after France, Greece, and even the US (remember that Nancy Pelosi trip?) all showed support to Armenia over Azerbaijan. Which leaves Armenia in a very weird and complicated geopolitical situation. Trying to oversimplify their geopolitical situation is just stupid.

rimu , 1 day ago

I've been reading your posts. You make excellent points very often, clearly drawing from a deep knowledge of the region.

However continually calling people names and insulting their intelligence will tend to stop them from really hearing your message and just inflame the situation. You could just not type that stuff and then everything else you type would have more impact. It'd be a pity to waste all that effort.

SleezyDizasta , 1 day ago

I sometimes get frustrated with the people I argue with and these stuff slip out. However, what you’re saying is a true and your criticism is valid. I’ll definitely keep this in mind. I appreciate your comment.

rimu , 1 day ago

Yes your frustration is totally understandable. It is a very heated topic and a lot of bad faith arguments are thrown around.

Sometimes I remind myself not to hope that the person I'm replying to will understand my reply or acknowledge that I'm right - instead I post my reply for the lurkers to read, who are far more numerous. The lurker has not publicly said anything so their ego is not fixed on defending their position and they are more likely to receive what I contribute with an open mind.

With this wider context, the goal changes. When the target audience shifts to the readers then there is no longer a need to continue a long back and forth discussion (the person replying to me will never change their mind anyway!) once I have made my point clearly. It's ok if the other person has the last word if by having it they discredit themselves by demonstrating a closed mind - the lurkers will see it.

I hope this helps.

MonkderDritte , 3 days ago

and supplying them with enough oil will raise the cost to an unacceptable level

That would actually be good, so EV and plastic alternatives get better chances.

Monument , 3 days ago

I don’t deny that. I really can’t wait for the transition away from petroleum.

But … power, and the economy is power. Sigh. The U.S. gets billions for its oil.

ImDankMom , 3 days ago

I’m just gonna comment here because most of my comments from my main aren’t getting federated in this thread. Not sure if I’m being censored or just janky federation, but its frustrating to be silenced in this situation. I’ll delete this if my actual comments ever show up.

history lessonWhy don’t you try answering his questions? He just demonstrated how the assertions you made in your original post don’t make any sense. And your response is a list of random historical generalities without any attempt to dispute the factual and logical inconsistencies of your argument. Oy vey You’re advancing a thesis that the US has been intentionally destabilizing the Middle East for the past 70 years, when the truth is the complete opposite. Destabilizing the region is what causes the price of oil to rise, the best interest of the US is for the region to be more stable so they can sell us more oil for cheaper prices. You’re so massively, incalculably confused and yet you believe yourself to be not only knowledgeable, but capable of explaining the situation to others. Remarkable. [Comment 2] >… I just realized you think my comments about Israel being a bully mean you think I mean the U.S. is destabilizing the Middle East. >And while that is true in limited contexts, I’m talking about Israel being a projection of U.S. power in the area, to prevent unity against the west. Obviously, the U.S. destabilizes countries that are opposed to the west, and fosters ones that aren’t. This sequence of words is utterly meaningless. “You think I meant the US is destabilizing the Middle East, but actually I meant that the US uses Israel in limited contexts in order to destabilize the Middle East”.
Huh? You’re saying the US destabilizes countries opposed to the west in the Middle East, using Israel as a projection of power. So, you’re saying that the US is destabilizing the Middle East. My reading comprehension is just fine, but you just have absolutely no clue what point you’re even trying to make. Your position is completely incoherent and paradoxical. >The U.S. has long needed a bully in the area to prevent the Middle East from being too unified, so the west can get relatively inexpensive access to its oil. No, it hasn’t. The Middle East has never been even remotely unified, why would the US be concerned about that? If anything, the existence of Israel is the most unifying force for many Middle Eastern countries who can barely agree on anything except hating Israel. >pay attention to what it says about the FOH with this bullshit, quote the relevant passage that you claim contradicts me. You constantly dodge and run away from any points made against you and try to move the goalposts to distract from your glaring ignorance and wrongness. [Comment 3 (this one went through on at least one server)] >And of course all the plans of the US that specifically talked about destroying nations like Iraq and Syria and the invasion of Iraq to do exactly that… All coincidences! Who would be so mean to assume this to be part of larger strategies? You need to cite sources. This means nothing without a specific source. The US previously had war plans to invade Canada in the event of war with the British Empire. Does that indicate the US is currently trying to destabilize Canada? Such is the nature of geopolitics. >Ahh yes. The Middle Easts own history. Clearly has nothing to do with French, British or US being the colonizing entities… And after all why would the US be interested in dividing a region that is connecting 3 continents and has the mos accessible of the main strategic ressources of the past two centuries. First of all, the French, British and US never colonized the middle east. They did engage in imperialism in order to control the geopolitical situation from distance after the demise of a previous colonial empire (the Ottomans), but there wasn’t any concerted effort to permanently settle or develop colonies in the region. The Middle East has historically been a colonizing region, not a colonized region. Seriously try to answer your own question. Why would the US be interested in destabilizing the region? So they can deal with more terrorist attacks until the end of time? The success of Middle Eastern countries is not a threat to US hegemony. They are on the payroll just like everyone else, they take US money for their oil and then they turn around and spend that money on manufactured goods and advanced services provided by US corporations. The US always wins as long as there is peace and economic activity is maximized. The US loses when economic activity is reduced, which is why you have the constant interventions in response to political and religious violence and extremism. The US military is a generally a peacekeeping force, because the US economy is a much more powerful tool for dominating other countries. A military victory only lasts as long as you have troops on the ground, but an economic victory can effectively assimilate an entire society, leaving no trace. The more money that Middle Eastern countries make, the more dependent they become on American goods and services. That’s the larger trajectory of the American geopolitical aim, not some childish strategy of “destabilizing” foreign regimes just to get embroiled in hugely expensive wars.

ImDankMom , 3 days ago (edited 3 days ago)

comment was too long[Comment 4] You are completely and utterly confused and mistaken about everything that you just said. I wish I could help you, but the best I can offer is to stop offering opinions on topics that you know nothing about. How is it so impossible for you to respond to the words I have already written down? You have repeatedly stated that the US has been intentionally destabilizing the Middle East. Now you state that: >The U.S. has a vested interest in keeping Middle East oil flowing and cheap until it’s no longer needed >a stable oil market means a healthy economy and unchanged projection of geopolitical power for the U.S., yes? I know, I literally just explained that fact to you. How is Middle East oil going to keep flowing cheaply if the US destabilizes the region and causes wars and conflict? Please explain how that makes sense to you. You think that oil becomes cheaper when the country is at war? Wtf are you smoking? Please, for the love of God, respond to my argument instead of going on some tangent about how the Hebrews were enslaved in the Old Testament or some shit. Confront your own ignorance. >Oh! The Wikipedia article says that the U.S. provided significant help to Israel. They said Israel won those on their own. Nah. They did alright in ‘67, fully stocked with U.S. weapons, because they knew it was coming. And in 73, the U.S. had to execute operation Nickel Grass to bail Israel out. Lmfao this would be funny if it weren’t so worrying for the future of humanity. The US had to bail Israel out? My man, the USSR had to threaten nuclear war in order to bail out Syria and Egypt (from a war they started) and get the US to force Israel to agree to a ceasefire before they overran Cairo and Damascus. The Yom Kippur war began when Egypt and Syria, supported by auxiliary forces from Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iraq, Algeria, Libya, Kuwait, Tunisia, Morocco, Cuba, and North Korea, launched a surprise attack on Israel on the Holy day of Yom Kippur, October 6th, 1973. The Arabic forces were supplied with weapons by their Soviet allies, and Israel was supplied by their American allies. Just in case you can’t count, that’s 12 Arabic and communist states versus Israel alone, with the advantage of surprise. Israel proceeded to absolutely rout the opposing forces in a matter of weeks. >After three days of heavy fighting, Israel halted the Egyptian offensive, resulting in a military stalemate on that front, and pushed the Syrians back to the pre-war ceasefire lines. The Israeli military then launched a four-day-long counter-offensive deep into Syria, and within a week Israeli artillery began to shell the outskirts of the Syrian capital of Damascus. Egyptian forces meanwhile pushed for two strategic mountain passes deeper within the Sinai Peninsula but were repulsed, and Israeli forces counter-attacked by crossing the Suez Canal into Egypt and advancing towards Suez City. On 22 October, an initial ceasefire brokered by the United Nations unravelled, with each side blaming the other for the breach. >By 24 October, the Israelis had improved their positions considerably and completed their encirclement of the Egyptian Third Army and Suez City, bringing them within 100 kilometres (62 mi) of the Egyptian capital of Cairo. Your argument is that the US provided significant help to Israel and they wouldn’t have been able to win without the US. It was a fucking surprise attack and they were able to turn the tide within three days. That not even enough time for supplies to get shipped into Israel from the States. Guess what else? The Soviet Union provided more help to Syria and Egypt than the US did to Israel, as it stated in the Wikipedia article which you linked, but apparently didn’t take the time to read. >In the end, the military airlift shipped 22,325 tons of materiel to Israel. Additionally, the U.S. conducted its own seaborne re-supply operation, delivering 33,210 tons to Israel by 30 October.[17] During the same general time, the Soviets airlifted 12,500–15,000 tons of supplies, more than half of which went to Syria; they also supplied another 63,000 tons mainly to Syria by means of a sealift. 66,00 tons of material from the Soviets versus 55,000 tons from the USA. Please stop spreading propaganda; you’re just a happy idiot, but bad actors move people like you around like pawns on a chessboard. Hamas is playing you like a fiddle and you don’t even realize. >They did alright in ‘67, fully stocked with U.S. weapons, because they knew it was coming. I don’t know how to explain this to you, but the fact that they didn’t know it was coming in 73, or many times since then, is exactly why they have some moral ground to stand on. Invading another nation without declaring war in advance is barbaric and cowardly. Regardless of any other opinions that you hold, surely we can agree that any military action should be announced in advance and directed towards military targets? I don’t believe that any civilized person can fail to understand that principle. If armed conflict is inevitable, at least give forewarning and let the defenseless women, children, and elderly get to safety. Israel does that. Hamas does the exact opposite. They go out of their way to attack defenseless Israeli civilians and they actively put their own civilians in harms way so that they can use their preventable deaths for political maneuvering. Absolutely disgusting, indefensible behavior.

Linkerbaan , 3 days ago

Your take makes a lot of sense but I do wonder how advantageous israel really is anymore. In the past it was an easy base, but we control Saudi, UAE etc now.

It feels like people downplay how much our policitians are in israels pocket. AIPAC is flaunting publicly that they practically own all American politicians.

Even when being utterly worthless israel might be able to keep American taxpayer dollars flowing to them by bribing politicians.

Monument , 3 days ago

That’s also highly valid, and not something I factor heavily into my thoughts about the future of U.S. support.

Shit. Huh. I gotta rethink that.

Schadrach , 2 days ago

It feels like people downplay how much our policitians are in israels pocket. AIPAC is flaunting publicly that they practically own all American politicians.

I find it wild that people say this so openly now, when before Oct 7 saying something like this would get you branded as a neo-Nazi. AIPAC being a massively powerful lobby is nothing new, it’s just socially acceptable to oppose them now.

gedaliyah , 4 days ago

Lebanon (at least Hezbollah in Lebanon) began attacking Israel on Oct 8 in solidarity with Hamas. Things have gradually been escalating since then.

mikezane , 4 days ago

Facts have no standing in this area of discussion.

NMeneses , 4 days ago

As longs as inertia prevails in the world stage, sadly, I don’t see a near term future where a light might shine in the end of the tunnel for Palestine’s future.

But if it serves a consolation, simmering tensions are purging therein the Netanyahu’s regime. His close allies aren’t aligned with the PM’s vision of the plausibility of defeat of Hamas (as if the Israel’s anger agains Palestine had anything to do with Hamas; it’s was a fallacious pretext).

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

Hopefully, there is no way in hell it can continue like it did for the last decades.

And the thing about attacking Lebanon was just some rumors basically. Hezbolla is however constantly shooting rockets into residential areas and targeting hospitals. So i can see Israel continuing a cleanup there after the Hamas problem is solved.

SleezyDizasta , 3 days ago

Why are you downvoted? You’re right

YourPrivatHater , 3 days ago

Cause lemmy is apparently filled with antisemitic people. At least i don’t have to worry about karma BS.

Neo-Leftism is a term i could use for this.

SleezyDizasta , 3 days ago

I mean the creators of this platform are full blown Marxists, it’s no surprise that a large percentage of their userbase share the same hateful viewpoints

YourPrivatHater , 3 days ago

I mean Marx was a jew… The new left is people thinking they fight imperialism by hating on Israel, wich by definition is antisemitism.

Im beginning to regret having left reddit, they at least banned people for obvious antisemitism.

StupidBrotherInLaw , 3 days ago

hating on Israel, wich by definition is antisemitism.

It’s official, they’re trolling. No one is this stupid… Right?

goferking0 , 3 days ago

Sadly they seem serious

bartolomeo , 3 days ago

I think they are the same person.

Both hasbara accounts none the less.

bartolomeo , 3 days ago

Bombing residential areas and targeting hospitals is very wrong, isn’t it?

yggstyle , 4 days ago

This may not be a popular response but when did the nazi regime stop? When did China stop with it’s cleansing? America and manifest destiny? I could go on… Humanity needs to realize that we are pretty shitty in general and can’t be trusted when it comes to hatred, entitlement, and tribalism.

The solution is a neutral third party with sufficient power to stop any country’s bullshit through economic and military (actual) peacekeeping… which doesn’t exist nor will it ever.

So the short answer is they will stop when the cleansing is complete.

After the deed is done we as ‘civilized’ nations will lament the tragedy and promise change… until the media cycle washes all those sins down the drain and it will be forgotten until next time.

Surp , 4 days ago

I am in no way saying what’s going on is right…anytime massive amounts of life is taken it’s horrible. With that being said you realize that there isn’t a single country in the entire world that wasn’t built on the blood of others? Every civilization that’s here now destroyed some other one. People act like they live in some place that asked nicely to have the land they have.

yggstyle , 4 days ago

Oh, I’m fully aware. Tribalism is the lizard brain going deeeep in the paint. The problem is this: peaceful culture doesn’t fight back - aggressive culture exploits this: which one thrives? We have systematically bred for and codified our warlike nature. This is the result. Is it fixable? Many have tried. Our history books are littered with both failed attempts and their distorted remains. All I can say for certain is that the way the majority of countries are structured… isn’t it. This is fundamentally why achieving a fix is nearly impossible at scale: tribalism. Even if we are wrong it’s our wrong and we don’t want to lose it. This is rooted in fear of change which from a survival aspect makes sense… but becomes detrimental at scale.

Surp , 4 days ago

I agree with what you’re saying and it’s too bad most people are too stupid to move forward with that mindset because I for one would rather we could all get along but for invisible reasons many people can’t…which is in itself quite unintelligent

thesporkeffect , 4 days ago

No. Moral. States

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

This is the most reasonable approach, but as seen with the UN, wich as the sum of its parts failed to keep dictatorships out wich now basically control everything but the security Council and the ICJ, its a Utopist approach sadly. There cant be a peace unless Israel takes over Palestine and treats the people that live there now as equal (wich they do already btw, the myth about apartheid is BS there are many Arab Palestinians living in Israel and many went to work in Israel from gaza) but the problem with the surrounding terrorists is another problem.

Carrolade , 4 days ago

The claim of Israeli apartheid does not pertain to the status of Israeli Arabs fyi. It pertains to de facto Israeli control of Gaza and the West Bank, where any time they want the IDF can exercise as much control as they want, by virtue of superior firepower.

Hamas, for instance, only persisted because the Israelis allowed it. Israel controlled the majority of access to the regions, and could and did unilaterally police them with military force at will.

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

Yeah shure because Hamas isnt constantly firing rockets into Israel… If there is a defakto control how exactly would the 7th October have happened…

This is just idiotic.

Carrolade , 4 days ago

De facto control does not mean 100% control over every event that happens. People are still humans, and capable of making errors. It is not mind reading/mind control powers, those are still impossible.

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

Yeah shure…

Israel has defakto 0 control over Gaza except for the borders normally. Everything inside is controlled by Hamas. And if you think otherwise you have never been there and you don’t know anything about it.

Carrolade , 4 days ago

Except they would routinely send in military forces to capture terrorist suspects in a process they referred to as “mowing the grass”. It’s even more pronounced in the West Bank, where the Israeli settlements are thoroughly intermingled with the Palestinian ones, and the Palestinians had relatively few powers over their own security.

It’s not a simple thing, unfortunately. Middle Eastern politics seldom are, just in general.

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

The civilians in Palestinia in general are victims, thats clear, but the reason they are is hamas and the narrative they propagate about the victim hood that got somehow transferred through generations just as their state as refugees would have according to them.

But yes the settlement thing is a shitshow, but nither side recognized the existence of the other and both claim the possession of the entire area, however, Israel clearly has more rights to it due to the fact that the people in Gaza and the other parts aren’t the people that lived there before Israel, they are mostly the descendants of the Arabs that attacked Israel shortly after it was declared a state, with the intention of a genocide. The original Palestinians live in Israel (many of them btw killed on the 7th October pogrom/genocide attempt) and have the same rights as the Christians, jews and everyone else, Israel is a super diverse country with lots of immigrants from all over the world. The claims about apartheid by Hamas (supported by un) are absolutely outlandish and just not true.

Oh and… When you have terrorists as you neighborhood you gotta make shure they don’t plot teroristic shit and remove the ones that do. That doesn’t mean anything about control thats just trying to keep a never ending Forrest fire within certain boundaries.

Carrolade , 4 days ago

The claim of Israeli apartheid is not a hamas claim, it’s acknowledged by various Israelis as well. Neither Gaza nor, especially the West Bank, has had full independence in many years.

Note, I am not talking about any Israeli citizens. I am talking about Israeli non-citizens who live under Israeli restrictions and off-and-on military control. This is the nature of apartheid. A people that is separate, but not fully independent. An in-between state of conquest, where you’re sort-of conquered but not really and have some, but not full, freedoms.

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

Uhhh autonomous regions that don’t see themselves as part of a country and behave like that are obviously not treated like citizens… Thats not apartheid thats common sense. And Israel blockade of Gaza is 100% justified because hamas uses basically everything as weapon transport.

Carrolade , 4 days ago

Except it is not under full Palestinian control either. Some things are controlled by Palestinians, other things are indeed controlled by Israelis. When a country is exercising partial control over citizens that are not its own, something odd is happening.

You can justify it if you like, but it is not the normal way of things where free people are concerned.

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

No its not normal and people living in a country governed by terrorists are never free, be gay in the autonomous region and you get to choose between being thrown of a building or hung or something worse…

There is no such thing as freedom as long as there are terrorists and as long as most support them.

Oh and both Israel and the autonomous region do claim ownership of each others territory and by that the people, so. Yes. Its complicated.

Carrolade , 4 days ago

Extremely complicated, certainly. But I hope my point that the apartheid claim, very specifically, is pretty hard to argue with comes through. It does not refer to any Israeli citizens, that’s a separate topic. It is not strictly hamas propaganda, it’s just a criticism of one part of a very complicated and difficult situation. The line that it is propaganda is actually itself, propaganda.

The only way to make it untrue was if Palestinians had full legal control over the West Bank, which they do not. Gaza is a murkier situation. It’s really about the West Bank though, not hamas or Gaza.

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

I meant the claim some people propagate about the apartheid within Israeli society, wich is propaganda. The claim that there is some sort of apartheid between Israeli and Palestinians is nothing to argue about, thats basically a fact, the reasons however are another thing.

The legal autonomy of Palestinia would mean Israels acknowledgement of Palestinia as a country, wich should not happen, as it would likely cause even more problems. In my personal opinion Israel needs to take action and remove the autonomous region from the map, there is no working two state solution as it will always lead to problems. True peace will only be possible when integration happens and the terrorists are hunted down to extinction or until they only exist in prison forever.

This is also why i strongly condemn the acknowledgement of Palestinia, especially after 7th October. This only fuels the Hamas and Islamistic jihad recruitment massively “It works!” works wonders in such cases, thats why it should not work.

Carrolade , 4 days ago

The only issue with that is Israel’s wish to remain a Jewish state. If they added all of those Palestinians as free and equal citizens, then that would shift the demographics of Israel sufficiently to put that at risk. So, they have to choose between values of freedom and equality, vs being a Jewish state, vs giving up that land.

Or they could attempt to remove all the people somehow.

No easy solutions, unfortunately. As usual for the Middle East.

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

I mean most of the hardcore islamists will either be killed as terrorists or flee the state Israel anyway (so likely about 50%). And in the end i can absolutely understand Israel regarding this goal. The goal is to keep their own citizens safe from the terrorism and from the antisemitism that is very big in the world. Israel got this territory from UK and they still have to fight for it. The entire region around Israeli borders is no mans land due to the very frequent bombardings from hamas and hezbolla. The Iron dome can only take out about 90% and the regions near border can’t be protected due to the warning time (10 seconds at max) the region is completely evaluated in the month after 7th October over 10.000 rockets Rained on Israel. And the daily average is about 100 to 200 since.

No peace is possible as long as these terrorists are alive and i absolutely hope Israel ignores all the outside “criticism” regarding the military operation and just removes them now.

One thing is easy, terrorists need to be gone for peace.

Carrolade , 4 days ago

I do agree that terrorism is a problem that needs to be dealt with. The problem is when innocents get caught up in the middle. If you just call a whole people or whole religion terrorist as an excuse to get rid of them, you’re just a generic conquerer, and a liar on top.

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

Thats not what im saying, i live with many Muslims in my neighborhood they are nice, respectful and open people, but the terrorists in Gaza and around Israel take their own civilians hostage and do stuff to endanger them on purpose. Its not possible to fight them without casualtys and collateral damages. Also these people take their religion as excuse to try to commit genocide, repeatedly.

Carrolade , 4 days ago

Yes, terrorists do do those things. But some collateral damage is one thing. All the possible collateral damage is genocide. If Netanyahu tries to drive all the Palestinians away, he has become as bad as what the Jewish people fled.

Just because some bad people are doing bad things does not give you an excuse to drop bombs on everyone. That is no good.

You do not want to become just as bad as what you hate, doing whatever it takes. Or you become them. A good person must try harder.

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

Thats not true for several reasons but im too tired to argue all of this.

One of those points is that the original Palestinian people are already part of Israel and currently only the Arab “Palestinians” are a problem. Maybe learn more about the conflict. But this goes for 99% of the people here, most here dont know shit about the conflict.

If peace in the region means driving those people away i think its justified, the jews have been on that side for the majority of history and still are, this conflict began because the Arab Palestinians tried to commit a actual genocide against the Israeli Jewish people.

Carrolade , 4 days ago

No, the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict began far, far earlier than Oct 7th, that was just the most recent flare-up. It’s complicated, remember?

The key is to not be evil, and to try not to kill too many people. You cannot escape the evil of killing innocent people, there is no acceptable justification. Some would be war. But too many is bad. Are the Israelis good people, or are they Huns? We shall see.

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

Bro, i meant the attempted genocide right after Israel was founded.

And its not evil to some day have enough about being the scapegoat for everyone and a easy target. Si vis pacem para bellum

Carrolade , 4 days ago

Oh, I see. I don’t know about genocide back then, it was really just various wars after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Some atrocities, but nothing into the thousands.

No, if your “enough” is just taking living space over the bones and ashes of others, you are commiting evil. There are other ways.

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

Oh, I see. I don’t know about genocide back then, it was really just various wars after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Some atrocities, but nothing into the thousand

Nah man they tried to kill all the jews in the first Arab Israeli war. They couldn’t because Israel was supported by the most important players.

No, if your “enough” is just taking living space over the bones and ashes of others, you are commiting evil. There are other ways.

What place isnt a gigantic graveyard? All modern civilizations are built on graveyards and if it takes another one to have more peace for longer thats a thing that wouldn’t be too bad.

This region in particular has probably seen more war in humanitys existence than most other places did. Why blame Israel for defending themselves? If your neighbors constantly throw trash into your garden you either throw them back or get the police involved. If your neighbor is a murderous psychopath you would buy a weapon to defend yourself, and you would use it when necessary. In that case, you killed someone for your living place.

Oh and Israel didn’t take shit, it was given to them by England after WW2 and as said, they constantly need to fight for what is rightfully theirs.

Carrolade , 4 days ago

Israel isn’t fighting just the bad neighbor though, they’re using that bad neighbor as an excuse to kill many good neighbors too. All Palestinians are not all bad, some are innocent.

They actually weren’t given it by Britain after WW2 either, that’s not even close. Fresh Jewish settlement in the area began somewhere around the 1900s-1920s, and they actually purchased the land with gathered funds for the purpose. Life between the Jewish settlers and the Palestinians was initially peaceful. I’ll warn you, I’m a history guy, I love this stuff.

History is an ugly thing, certainly, the important thing is that we do better, and learn from the errors. This is how we can avoid living in such miserable times as our ancestors were often forced to, so often making foolish choices and burning their own countries to the ground out of hubris, like Germany or Japan in WW2 did.

The first Arab-Israeli War was a little more complicated than that. Jewish militias were actually conquering land at that point in something called Plan Dalet, it was something of a civil war in the broader region between the Jewish and Palestinian factions. After the Israeli declaration of independence, yes, a large coalition of countries did try to eject them. It was won by the Israelis though, and they were rewarded for that with gains. These wars do not give excuse to kill the descendents of those people, though, right? Each person should be judged for what they do, not their fathers, or their neighbors.

Don’t think the Israelis are innocent angels that never conquered or committed atrocities in their early history either. It was a very ugly time with both sides being pretty horrendous at different points. Modern Israel has taken steps at different points to be better than that though, returning to the peaceful ways of the original settlers under people like Rabin, before Netanyahu took over. They can do that again, it is not too late.

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

Ukraine is killing many Russians that are probably “good people” as well…

The argument makes no sense and im not going to take this any further.

Carrolade , 4 days ago

Probably not that many, actually, most of the Russian casualties are uniformed soldiers. All the Russians would need to do to stop the death would be withdraw anyway. Can the Gazans withdraw anywhere, or no?

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

Probably… Thats just bs.

Carrolade , 3 days ago

You should actually look into why they’re all still there then, even though self-preservation says that’s a terrible idea.

YourPrivatHater , 3 days ago

What?

Carrolade , 3 days ago

There’s immigrants moving all over the world, right? Going to Europe, America, etc. Why are Gazans still there, where there’s not enough food, fresh water, there’s only tents to live in, and a war rages around them? Millions of them. Don’t the mothers want their babies to live? Why don’t they flee like everyone else in the same sort of situation?

It’s not hard to answer, just look it up when you get around to it.

I’d say, but I’m trying to wind down the conversation.

YourPrivatHater , 3 days ago

Because they stay there thinking its their right. Thinking they deserve to destroy Israel.

Also, before hamas pulled off the 7th October shitshow Gaza and Palestine was relatively save and began to economicaly get on track.

Also most refugees are a very very small portion of the people from a area, most stay. Even in Mariupol Ukraine there are still people, even in actual warzones where the invading military (Russia) hunts civilians.

Right now they can’t leave because of the terrorist attack, nobody wants those terrorists to get away into another country.

Why do jews still exist even after being literally hunted for most of history?

Carrolade , 3 days ago

Not hamas, Gazans that have no hamas affiliation. Could they enter Egypt? Could they enter Israel? Are there any other neighboring countries? Could they get on a boat, or a plane?

While yes, some always stay behind, a great many flee. Most do not stick around. Mariupol was encircled quickly, look at the towns in Eastern Ukraine where they had a lot of warning before the enemy arrived. Jews usually fled, that’s why Israel was founded in the first place, right? A place to flee to.

At any rate, in Gaza, almost nobody has fled. Some should flee, right? But they actually cannot. Physically cannot, prevented by other people.

YourPrivatHater , 3 days ago

Maybe you should do a little research about why they don’t go away and why nobody from outside takes them. And yes Hamas. Hamas is the root of problems. Btw, many gaza refugees live in Europe… And they despise most people still in gaza saying “these are the people responsible for all of the deaths, its not Israel shooting civilians left and right, its not Israelis going into “Palestine” with the IDF and spitting on dead people or killing them” this is a direct quote from one of the people i work with, he is a refuge from gaza, and he said that going out is not hard (was, currently it definitely is) and that they are allowed to leave into Israel when they want to move away.

Most don’t want to go, it would be admitting defeat after almost 70 years of trying to get rid of Israel.

Shure Israel is blocking the entrys and exits now and was strictly regulating before. Iran already sends hamas weapons through tunnels, don’t need the terrorists to leave and regroup outside of gaza for a attack on Israel. Don’t need more Iranian weapons in Gaza, especially not even more Rockets.

You people argue that Israel should let a region with majority support for a terrorist organization, especially their genocide attacks, do whatever they want.

apnews.com/…/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-po…

timesofisrael.com/…/poll-over-70-palestinians-sti… *

middleeasteye.net/…/war-gaza-poll-shows-palestini… *

(* same poll different sources)

The insanity is beyond reason.

Carrolade , 3 days ago

I’m sorry for upsetting you, but don’t put words in my mouth. I’m not arguing to let Gazans “do whatever they want”, I have not said that or anything similar. If you remember, I said earlier that terrorists need to be dealt with, right?

It’s those innocents, those that are not part of hamas, that’s the sticking point. For whatever good or bad reasons they cannot leave, the fact is that today, they 100% cannot leave. So, they should not be callously butchered and/or starved simply because of what their fathers and neighbors have done.

YourPrivatHater , 3 days ago

Yes but they aren’t being starved on purpose, Israel isn’t targeting the civilians, that would be super counterproductive for them as more people would join the terrorists. Also Israel, contrary to popular belief does not have enough material to waste it on civilians. They fight a four front war against the Palestinian terrorists, the ones from Lebanon(hezbolla), the ones from the Egyptian border (hezbolla) and whatever Iran is currently plotting.

There is food getting into Gaza, its not enough for everyone, hut they try. They have to keep themselves save first however, you can’t help anyone when you are dead. Nato is even airlifting supplys into Gaza where its not possible to get trucks with food.

The narrative being pushed by hamas is “Israel kills all our people with bombs and starves the children” this is textbook recruitment propaganda. They celebrate every single dead jew btw.

Carrolade , 3 days ago

Yes, hamas is not good people, I do not trust them. I don’t trust politicians either though, especially the more extreme ones.

That’s why I say what sort of people the Israelis are remains to be seen. We don’t know yet. We won’t know until this is all over and we see what has become of those Gazans that are innocent. Will they be alive or dead? That will be telling.

YourPrivatHater , 3 days ago

Well, most are alive, most dead are terrorists or where used by them as human shields.

I do trust politicians waaaay more than terrorists. Even the extreme ones. Because they can be hold accountable. Terrorists are by definition illegal by Geneva conventions. Especially because they do target civilians.

Carrolade , 3 days ago

A politician loyal to his own laws and courts, sure, I absolutely trust them more. They’re aren’t all, though. Ultimately a terrorist and a politician with no regard for their own law are very similar. Power-mad. A terrorist can even become a politician, it happens sometimes.

CapeWearingAeroplane , 4 days ago

Israel recognised Palestinian civilian and security control of the West bank in the Oslo accords from the 90’s. They are blatantly shitting on their own promises whenever a genocidic occupier or their enabling security forces set foot on the West Bank without express permission from the Palestinian West Bank government.

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

Yeah the promise to ignore all genocidal attempts, rocket barrages and what not. You are not just a clown, you are the entire fucking clown academy.

prole , 3 days ago (edited 3 days ago)

“rocket barrages” lol that’s rich.

Then Israel responds by murdering 100x civilians including women and children.

Complete disproportionate response after Iron Dome basically prevents any Israelis from dying from those so-called “rocket barrages.”

Each time it’s one or two Israeli soldiers killed by the one rocket out of 40 that made it in, and by a week later 1,200 Palestinian civilians are murdered. Cool.

Over and over for 5+ decades. It’s just objective fact, the numbers are publicly available. I don’t forget, so the people in Gaza and the West Bank sure as shit don’t (between fighting off “settlers” with AR-15s from New Jersey storming their villages in the middle of the night). Israel created every Palestinian terrorist after decades of oppression, displacement, apartheid, and dire hopelessness. Almost like it’s what they wanted.

And now literal genocide. Their end goal. A final solution if you will.

YourPrivatHater , 3 days ago

Textbook Hamas propaganda. Absolut mental diarrhea and just misinformation.

Wow. Go away nazi.

zbyte64 , 4 days ago

I mean if you born in Gaza your birth needs to be registered with Israel. Otherwise you will lack the necessary documents to get through the checkpoints.

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

Obviously, Gaza or Palestinia in general doesn’t give out recognized papers. Its a autonomous region for a reason.

They wouldn’t be allowed to enter any other country without said documents either.

There is no actual reason why it should ne otherwise.

zbyte64 , 3 days ago

“Autonomous region” is a technical label, but it does not negate the fact they don’t control their borders or who ultimately says their children are actual people.

Trainguyrom , 4 days ago

UN, which… failed to keep dictatorships out

The UN while created with noble intentions certainly fell for the paradox of tolerance. They tolerate the dictatorships and human rights abusers because if they didn’t they’d be much less empowered to take action against them, or worse they’d form their own competing UN made up of nations motivated to join them and you’d just end up with another NATO and Warsaw Pact for example. It’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

Ultimately the challenge comes down to how do you ultimately tame the leaders of the world who have absolute power. The founding fathers of the United States of America thought they had the solution with democracy and the many checks and balances they implemented into this new form of government they setup, but even that has its challenges and failures that they never could have forseen. The UN was the next experiment, trying to take the similar principles onto the world stage, and it’s been less successful (but at least has had some successes)

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

The UN while created with noble intentions certainly fell for the paradox of tolerance. They tolerate the dictatorships and human rights abusers because if they didn’t they’d be much less empowered to take action against them, or worse they’d form their own competing UN made up of nations motivated to join them and you’d just end up with another NATO and Warsaw Pact for example. It’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

Yes absolutely but the dictatorships and shitshow countries (china for example) keep growing in numbers, if this trend isn’t reversed fast, UN fails as a whole and there is no saving.

It would be better in my opinion to have two options, democratic union and whatever the dictatorships do with each other, because the only thing that united them is being against democracy and Israel. UN, in my personal opinion, already failed as a whole and is beyond saving.

Ultimately the challenge comes down to how do you ultimately tame the leaders of the world who have absolute power. The founding fathers of the United States of America thought they had the solution with democracy and the many checks and balances they implemented into this new form of government they setup, but even that has its challenges and failures that they never could have forseen.

The big part of a government is, that it has power to enforce whatever it decides, UN gladly does not have any meaningful power, Israel would be gone by now otherwise.

The UN was the next experiment, trying to take the similar principles onto the world stage, and it’s been less successful (but at least has had some successes)

Well those successes slowly but steadily crumble away, the most institutions have failed, WHO is doing its job only half assed (especially the making shure hospital aren’t used as military bases) the human rights Council is majorly filled with people that think human rights are shit and only need to apply it when it fits against the west or Israel specifically, the General Assembly is almost the same. (fun fact, the day of the Russian attack on Ukraine the general assembly voted about condemning Israel for something… Again. Most resolutions are against Israel.) Oh and the entire UNHWR wich is definitely more than partially responsible for hamas doing what they do.

UN isn’t even a diplomatic forum anymore.

Keeponstalin , 4 days ago

The Apartheid is very much real, and, while to a much lesser extent than the Palestinian Occupied Territories, also applies to the Palestinian Citizens of Israel

Socio-economic gaps between Palestinian and Jewish Israeli citizens are the result of discriminatory policies pursued over decades. Historically, Israel prevented its Palestinian citizens from accessing livelihoods under its 18-year-long military rule, and used them, at different times, as a source of cheap labour in order to preserve the interests of the Jewish majority. In addition to cruel land seizures, other discriminatory policies have led to Palestinians’ social and economic deprivation: the exclusion of Palestinian localities from high priority areas for development, the discriminatory allocation of land and water for agriculture as well as discriminatory planning and zoning, and the failure to implement major infrastructure development projects in Palestinian communities.

The blockade and Israel’s repeated military offensives have had a heavy toll on Gaza’s essential infrastructure and further debilitated its health system and economy, leaving the area in a state of perpetual humanitarian crisis. Indeed, Israel’s collective punishment of Gaza’s civilian population, the majority of whom are children, has created conditions inimical to human life due to shortages of housing, potable water and electricity, and lack of access to essential medicines and medical care, food, educational equipment and building materials.

• Amnesty International Report pg 26-27

Other reports about how Israel is an Apartheid State:

Human Rights Watch Report

B’TSelem Report with quick Explainer

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

…wikipedia.org/…/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch

…wikipedia.org/…/Criticism_of_Amnesty_Internation…

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/B'Tselem

I think you might need to read this i won’t read your comment or open those links, your sources are very openly and clearly biased and known to be very antisemitic and to hate Israel. There is nothing to gain from them.

Keeponstalin , 4 days ago

Criticism of the Human Rights Abuses of the Israeli State and Anti-zionism are not antisemitism. You are choosing to be willfully ignorant. Israel does NOT represent all Jewish people, nor does their actions. There have been prominent Jewish people extremely critical of Zionism since it’s inception, are you seriously saying they are antisemitic too?

Israel is the one that intentionally conflates the two in order to deflect from criticizm. When Israel commits war crimes, or human rights abuses, or land grabbing, they are the ones that claim they do so for all Jewish people. When Zionist actions are criticized, they call it antisemitic. The conflation of the two is genuinely antisemitic, as the actions of Israel in no way represent all Jewish people.

If you don’t want to be naive, I suggest you read the reports by human rights organizations. They are not antisemitic, unless you think advocates for a Secular Bi-National State with equal rights for both Israelis and Palestinians is also antisemitic, which is insane.

Year before Oct 7 - Jewish Voice for Peace

2023 is ‘deadliest year’ for Palestinian children say human rights groups (Oct 6th)

HRW Events of 2022 and HRW Events of 2023

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago

Jewish voice for peace is a super left wing anti Israel organization.

New Arab is a shitshow. Also yeah shure the 10k rockets hamas fired from gaza after 7th had a 20% failure rate… They are usually fired from residential areas or sometimes from school/hospitals. So yeah shure many gaza children died. “OH SAVE THE CHILDREN!” they screamed as they murdered children from another religion/ethnicity…

HRW again, im not reading that, i cant even, ive blocked their domains in my DNS due to given reason provided.

Oh and yes i absolutely see a two state solution as absolutely impossible and borderline Antisemitic currently (after 7th October)

CapeWearingAeroplane , 4 days ago (edited 4 days ago)

You are aware that what Israel is doing in Gaza is comparable to the nazi treatment of e.g. the Warsaw ghettos… right?

Take a step back, and look at the Israeli soldiers mocking Palestinian dead, mistreating the wounded and captured, and shooting at clearly unarmed civilians for fun. All this while they brag about it on video. Look at that and tell me that it doesn’t give you a sick feeling to your stomach of the type you haven’t had since you saw photos of concentration camps.

There are dozens of children that have literally STARVED TO DEATH in Gaza because of Israel’s actions. They’re dying the same deaths that Jews were put through in concentration camps. Don’t you see the horrifying irony in this?

Israel is at a point where humanitarian workers from recognised international organisations have been targeted and killed, and they brush it off as a “mistake”.

I cannot think about anything in the past 70 years that compares to what Israel is doing, and I hope beyond hope that some force will smite their government and armed forces such that the slaughter will stop. Because it is a slaughter. It’s not a war when Israel is counting its dead on its fingers, while there are enough missing Palestinians in the rubble to fill a football stadium. It’s just Israel wilfully bombing, burning and slaughtering, with nobody stopping them.

All this, and you have the fucking audacity to talk about antisemitism? Take a look at the world, and ask yourself how calling for an end to this can have anything to do with the religious beliefs of the perpetrators.

YourPrivatHater , 4 days ago (edited 4 days ago)

You are aware that you talk absolut mental diarrhea and make not a single coherent sentence in the above comment…

Oh and “THE CHILDREN!!!”

Im blocking you now, arguing with you is like trying to teach a wall to do a backflip.

StupidBrotherInLaw , 3 days ago

What a class A moron. You can’t even respond to a single thing they say, so it’s just “mental diarrhea”. Every one of your comments is evading their points so hard, your mental gymnastics would qualify you for the Special Olympics if they didn’t have a minimum IQ requirement.

aliteral , 3 days ago

As a person with jewish ancestry, what you are spewing makes me feel ill. Antizionism is not antisemitism. If it were, so many jews will be antisemitic? Please, grow up.

YourPrivatHater , 3 days ago

As a person with German ancestry i kindly don’t care if you personally are against it. Israel is a state and being for the abolishment of Israel is antisemitism, even from Jewish people.

Maybe learn about the history of a place outside of the Islamnazi propaganda.

aliteral , 2 days ago

Oh, I learned plenty, and not from Islamic centered resources. But you wouldn’t be able to discern it because you are speaking from hate, not from facts. Besides, there are many jewish academics who support Palestine and are against the genocide of Palestinians. And neither they nor I claim that supporting them is antisemitic or that it requires the genocide of the Israeli people. Only someone with a warped and dellusional understanding of history could make the claims you make.

NeoNachtwaechter , 4 days ago

party with sufficient power to stop any country’s bullshit

No. That would not be a solution for anything! That would just be an even bigger threat to humanity.

yggstyle , 4 days ago

I disagree. It’s about execution - creating an environment that is resistant to corrosion. A standing force can absolutely be viewed in that manner - which is why it cannot be a single static standing force.

The UN is the right idea but it needs teeth. And it needs the teeth to be double sided. If boots are on the ground peacekeeping they should be without bias and secondary interest. An attack on a peacekeeper has no guarantee of the creed nor country of origin of that keeper.

Peacekeeping should be like a draft. Every country that participates must provide and maintain a set number of rolling participants. These people will serve and train initially in humanitarian deployments with others… half way through their ‘term’ they should be moved to peacekeeping duties. This is idealized but would be good for both building trust amongst peacekeepers and goodwill towards them. This solves the military portion (roughly) - I have a lot of thoughts on this and believe it to be solvable… it just won’t be. No country gets to benefit therefore it has no merit.

That covered the military side… when talking about the economic side: the peacekeepers (let’s say un for simplicity) carry the ability to (by vote) censure a country and cut it off from direct trade / support. At that time any trade is then routed through the UN and it becomes the middleman. This allows economic pressures to be precisely controlled on an area. Once that country falls in line, by majority vote, operations are restored. Once again this is idealized and has no obviously advantaged party … so it has no merit and will never occur.

Basically everyone is equally held accountable and equally invested. Of course this means everyone gets a seat at the table and everyone gets one vote. I’m certain we can already see why this has 0 chance of ever happening. Those in power seek to keep it - very few will willingly give some away.

NeoNachtwaechter , 4 days ago

A nice dream, but only a dream.

Unfortunately man is not perfect enough for it to work. Therefore the outcome can be nothing else than a huge threat for mankind.

yggstyle , 4 days ago

I said as much multiple times.

The point of that statement was to highlight that it is possible to construct something that does not allow for consolidation and corruption of power… which it did. Your view simply was looking at present day examples which, as you correctly identified, do not work. That doesn’t mean nothing can work however … which is why I disagreed.

It’s a fun mental exercise to what if and try to construct something that could work. Can’t tear something down without considering what rebuilding it would look like.

NeoNachtwaechter , 4 days ago

That doesn’t mean nothing can work however

But yes, it does.

zbyte64 , 4 days ago

Don’t interrupt someone doing what you said couldn’t be done.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices , 3 days ago

be careful about using the term ‘execution’ here ;-)

yggstyle , 3 days ago

…until morale improves? Dually noted lol.

SurpriZe , 3 days ago

Options for this third party?

Soggy , 3 days ago

Aliens.

SurpriZe , 1 day ago

Which ones exactly