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HootinNHollerin ,

Alabama is a shithole

Gazumi ,

For all those fine upstanding people who soabox about fetal life, this is the world you created for these women and their childfen.

mlc894 ,

So… why are the guards not being arrested for child endangerment? Why is this a lawsuit and not a criminal matter?

Smoogs ,

So basically we’re throwing women in a pit and throwing stones at them for ‘giving men the urge’.

Where was this free world I heard so much about?

fne8w2ah ,

The consequences of letting literal illiterates get into power.

rivermonster ,

Break up the union. We don’t need the dirty south, I’m only interested in helping refugees flee that hell!

ZzyzxRoad ,

Caswell, who has faced several chemical endangerment charges over the years, is now in state prison, serving a 15-year sentence.

What. The. Fuck. There are men who beat the absolute shit out of their girlfriends and spouses, for the 5th time, sometimes nearly kill them, and never see the inside of a jail cell or any charges at all. Or they get a few months and when they get the cops called on them for beating the shit out of another woman, they don’t even get a parole or probation violation. Sometimes women get arrested, bloody with black eyes, while the person who did it walks away with barely a scratch and zero charges. I’m just speaking from personal here, but this happens with tons of other things. Sexual assault specifically. The supreme court just made it legal for people who have been charged with domestic violence to own/buy a fucking gun while out on bail.

I’m not defending using drugs while pregnant, and it’s stupid I feel I even have to say that. But this sentence just shows, clear as day, the utter contempt the US has for women. And that the US prison system, and entire criminal justice system, constitutes actual torture - as they said in the article. I’m ashamed be an American, what an absolute Gilead shithole of a country.

trash80 ,

The article states that she wasn’t initially sent to prison, not that it makes the treatment she received any less barbaric.

Jody Willoughby, the Etowah county district attorney, did not comment on his office’s policy of prosecuting “chemical endangerment” cases or Caswell’s lawsuit. But he said in an email that Caswell’s 15-year sentence included an initial “community corrections” placement, meaning an alternative program outside of jail, but that she was sent to state prison after her probation was revoked. Records show officials moved to have her complete her sentence in prison after a positive drug test.

WaterChi ,

It’s never been about the children. It has always been about controlling and dehumanizing women as this story so clearly demonstrates.

SwedishFool , (edited )

Yep, I thought everybody knew that already. They only care about the children as long as they’re inside the woman, the second she pushes that baby out they don’t have a care in the world anymore.

On the other hand, I DO believe some sort of intervention is needed when a drug addict gets pregnant, but I’m talking a locked rehab and not prison.

hperrin ,

Can the baby sue for false imprisonment?

IamRoot ,

The baby can sue the state and the mother. It was trapped by the mother first.

Unlawful detention.

IamRoot ,

Every one cares now.

Where were you when the voting was happening?

vardogor ,
@vardogor@mander.xyz avatar

what voting?

WaterChi ,

The voting that gave us a super majority in SCOTUS. That continues to put people in power who want to rule instead of represent.

dragonflyteaparty ,

Who could have known ahead of time that would happen?

rurutheguru ,

TIL Americans are awful at judging someone’s character.

IamRoot ,

Anyone with half a brain.

ColdWater ,
@ColdWater@lemmy.world avatar

Least brain rotted US government:

IamRoot ,

What?

Affidavit , (edited )

…it exposes the consequences of the “fetal personhood movement”, which seeks to legally define fertilized eggs, embryos and fetuses as people. The concept, enshrined in expanding anti-abortion laws, has led to increased surveillance and criminalization of pregnant people, with women punished for the outcomes of their pregnancies or other actions that police claim endangered their fetuses.

The way the detention staff acted in this is frankly disgusting. That being said, I don’t think it is entirely fair to equate Alabama’s frankly stupid abortion legislation with assigning a certain level of rights to a foetus. If a mother intends to carry to full term and is using drugs, I don’t think it is fair to the foetus-soon-to-be-person to ignore this.

Who here would like to try and explain to a victim of foetal alcohol syndrome or prenatal opioid exposure that their suffering is morally acceptable because their mother had the right to choose?

It doesn’t always need to be one extreme or another, there is a middle ground.

Smk ,

I agree. If your goal is to give birth, it feels like the fetus becomes a person. Otherwise, 20 to 24weeks, in my opinion, is the reasonable time a fetus could become a person as it is in that period that the conscious experience starts to appear.

gAlienLifeform OP ,
@gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

The mother in this story was 2 months pregnant when she was arrested, so about eight weeks. I’ve searched for every other news story on this I could find and none of them say when she became aware she became pregnant and whether or not she used drugs after that, so it’s quite likely she didn’t have a goal of giving birth here.

trash80 ,

Let me preface this by saying that I am disgusted with the way this woman has been treated and something needs to change.

none of them say when she became aware she became pregnant and whether or not she used drugs after that

It looks like she used drugs after that and that was why she had her probation revoked. At least, that is the story from the Sheriff’s Office.

Caswell tested positive for Methamphetamines while being around 4 months pregnant. This is Ashley Caswell’s 4th charge of Chemical Endangerment with 2 other pregnancies.

Caswell was released from the Etowah County jail in April of this year and placed on Community Corrections for monitoring. When Caswell came to report on 08/01/2022 she was drug tested and failed for methamphetamine, she was then arrested for a Community Corrections Violation. Caswell stated that she was around 4 months pregnant.

www.etowahcountysheriff.com/press_view.php?id=32

gAlienLifeform OP ,
@gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

That’s a different case, everything in the news article and lawsuit happened in 2021 but this one from the sheriff’s page is from 2022

Assuming it’s the same person and the sheriff’s office is being truthful, it doesn’t look like any of these awful events did anything to protect her children or stop her drug addiction

trash80 ,

That’s a different case

Yes. It is a more recent incident that occurred after she was arrested in 2021, because you posed the question of whether she used drugs after the first incident.

gAlienLifeform OP ,
@gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

So it’s your contention she was incarcerated in 2021 for conduct she engaged in during 2022? Because that seems like a violation of the Constitution, along with like laws of physics, but I really just don’t understand what point you’re trying to make here.

The comment I was responding to said [paraphrased] “if your goal is to give birth and you use drugs when you know you’re pregnant that should be a crime.” I just pointed out that we don’t know if she knew she was 2 months pregnant in March 2021 when she was arrested, resulting in this jailhouse shower birth in October 2021. Whatever she’s alleged to have done in 2022 and any arrests that resulted from that doesn’t have anything to do with that question.

trash80 ,

So it’s your contention she was incarcerated in 2021 for conduct she engaged in during 2022?

No.

I just pointed out that we don’t know if she knew she was 2 months pregnant in March 2021 when she was arrested

You think the police knew she was pregnant before she knew she was pregnant?

gAlienLifeform OP ,
@gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, it’s definitely possible. She was arrested after failing a drug test, they probably did the pregnancy test then too and that could have been how/when she found out she was pregnant.

ricecake ,

There’s some legal murkiness I could see coming from that, but in principle it seems like something you would have to prosecute after the individual was born.

If a fetus isn’t a person, then there’s no victim. The potential of a victim isn’t the same as a victim. The intention for there to be a victim doesn’t even create a victim.

I think about the closest thing you could argue for would be that if a person knew they were pregnant, could have aborted but chose not to, and engaged in behavior that demonstrably caused harm once there was a live person, then maybe you could argue some type of negligence. But even that feels really close to a slippery slope to me, and makes me too uncomfortable.
If for no other reason than it could create a situation where someone is prosecuted for knowingly reproducing while having a measurable statistical chance of a heritable birth defect, or just being above the age where down syndrome becomes more likely.

Schadrach ,

If a fetus isn’t a person, then there’s no victim. The potential of a victim isn’t the same as a victim. The intention for there to be a victim doesn’t even create a victim.

Except this is precisely the opposite of the logic used if some third party causes the harm. If, say, a pregnant woman gets shot in a mugging gone wrong and her fetus dies as a consequence, were more than willing to count that as a homicide and for some reason this line of reasoning vanishes.

It’s either a person or not, not whichever is more convenient to the mother in whatever situation occurs.

ricecake ,

Personally, I wouldn’t be in favor of classifying that as a homicide, but would rather it be an aggravating factor attached to the crime of shooting the actual person.

There is a cost, morally and emotionally, to a fetus dying, but it’s not a crime against the fetus but the mother.

The existence of a law written in a way I disagree with doesn’t obligate me to agree with another one I disagree with.

CorruptBuddha ,

I can’t boobietrap my own home because there’s the potential of a firefighter, or someone innocent hurting themselves.

ricecake ,

First, those people, although unspecified, actually exist. Creating a hazard for real people is different from taking an action that could hurt a person who does not exist.
Secondly, creating a device with the intent to hurt someone regardless of circumstance or actual threat is pretty morally different from typical home defense, to say nothing of engaging in behavior that could incidentally harm a fetus.

CorruptBuddha ,

It seems weird to me that you’re trying to create a disconnect when cause and effect is cause and effect.

I can’t work on my own electrical for my home without getting it inspected. If my house burnt down and harmed someone I could be held responsible. Even without harm I could be liable.

ricecake ,

We’re in the comments on an article about a woman being thrown in jail for endangering her fetus, and you’re arguing that because a fetus could turn into a person that’s fine.

I’m not saying fetuses don’t turn into people, I’m saying that at most you can look at actual damage done once the person actually exists.

Women aren’t houses, so criminalizing their behavior because of the impact it might have in a person who does not yet exist is not great.

CorruptBuddha ,

We’re in the comments on an article about a woman being thrown in jail for endangering her fetus, and you’re arguing that because a fetus could turn into a person that’s fine.

I’m an antinatalist, I just find your arguments bad.

Women aren’t houses, so criminalizing their behavior because of the impact it might have in a person who does not yet exist is not great.

Women “not being houses” is irrelevant to the point I made. We criminalize actions all the time when harm isn’t actual, only potential.

ricecake ,

So is your point that because we’ve done something before, we should do it again?
If not, I’m not sure what “we’ve done it before” has to do with “we should not do it now”.

Criminalizing otherwise legal behavior because of the impact it might have on a person who might exist in the future is a not good thing to do.

Considering both of your arguments against not doing that centered around how we regulate houses, it seems like it might have been relevant to point out that women aren’t houses, and so maybe we should use a different criteria for judging laws that impact them.

trash80 ,

There’s some legal murkiness I could see coming from that, but in principle it seems like something you would have to prosecute after the individual was born.

If a fetus isn’t a person, then there’s no victim. The potential of a victim isn’t the same as a victim. The intention for there to be a victim doesn’t even create a victim.

We don’t wait for drunk drivers to hurt someone to prosecute them for drunk driving.

ricecake ,

Because the act of driving drunk is, itself, illegal. Drunk driving isn’t framed as vehicular manslaughter of a non-person. If a person is hurt, that’s a separate offense.
There’s a difference between the potential to hurt an unspecified individual, and the potential to hurt a specific entity that may or may not exist in the future.

What was being discussed was not “drinking while pregnant”, but “engaging in risky behavior while intending to carry to term”. Closer to “drinking while intending to drive”.

In any case, I’m still not sure I’m in favor of it. One can’t unknowingly get drunk and drive a car, but one can unknowingly become pregnant and have a drink.

WaterChi ,

Disgusting but not surprising

dragonflyteaparty ,

I disagree whole heartedly. Criminalizing things like using drugs during pregnancy leads to criminalizing miscarriages for natural reasons which has absolutely happened. There’s not a ton of cases, but women have gone to jail for having a miscarriage after saying they wanted an abortion based on the idea that they must have killed their fetus.

Affidavit ,

I don’t care about prosecuting or criminalising in this case. There is already precedent for rehabilitation both voluntary, and in the case where a person’s safety is at risk, involuntary.

I don’t see why this could not be expanded to include the safety of an unborn child.

Noting specifically that I am talking about drug abuse where a woman intends to carry to term, not about locking women up to force them to give birth. I hate that I even have to clarify, but if experience had taught me anything, people on social media get positively orgasmic when they find something they can willfully misinterpret.

Gumbyyy ,

Well that tracks.

deaf_fish ,

Were we supposed to be surprised? Most people called this.

Comfortably_Wet ,
@Comfortably_Wet@lemmy.world avatar

There is a German proverb: Every people has the government it deserves.

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

Interesting proverb for Germans. I wonder how long it’s been around

Mrs_deWinter ,

I just checked and: Its actually from france, coming from an opponent of the revolution and is dated 1811.

TimewornTraveler ,

oh so that’s why it’s a shitty quote, it’s for bootlickers

Comfortably_Wet ,
@Comfortably_Wet@lemmy.world avatar

Joseph Marie de Maistre

! 01.04.1753 Chambéry, Rhône-Alpes (Frankreich)

† 26.02.1821 Turin (Italien)

“Every nation has the government it deserves.”

Letter from 15.VIII.1811

TimewornTraveler ,

seems like a shitty quote. what made you think of it?

Comfortably_Wet ,
@Comfortably_Wet@lemmy.world avatar

Whover you allow to rule you: You are getting exactly what you have earned yourself. In a Democracy this is even more evident than in a dictatorship.

madcaesar ,

If you are a woman, voting republican, you should be fucking ashamed of yourself. This is what this party thinks of you and your kind.

jankaifer ,

“your kind”

ilmagico ,

Agreed, but then again, let’s say you don’t like democrats either, for whatever reason. What choices do you have? Any other party has zero chances. It’s time the US changes its voting laws to allow more than 2 parties to meaningfully exist, so people don’t have to always choose the lesser of the two evils.

rurutheguru ,

Yeah okay, but if you’re a woman voting republican, you’re clearly choosing the more evil of two choices? I fully agree with the flawed two party system, but there’s an obvious better choice here. We’re talking about a singular issue: female reproductive rights.

ilmagico ,

Yep, you’re right, I’m just pointing out that for some, it’s not such clear cut. Ranked voting (or you know, a proportional system like in some European countries) would fix this.

madcaesar ,

I get it. But sometimes you’ve got to put out the fire before you start repainting the house.

CorruptBuddha ,

Sorry but no.

TimewornTraveler ,

they just think she deserves it for using meth

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