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What can a city do when neo-Nazis start marching down its streets?

The brazen appearance of white supremacist groups in Nashville left the city grappling with how to confront hateful speech without violating First Amendment protections.

They first arrived at the beginning of July: dozens of masked white supremacists, shuffling out of U-Hauls, to march through Nashville carrying upside-down American flags.

A week later, members of a separate neo-Nazi group, waving giant black flags with red swastikas, paraded along the city’s famed strip of honky-tonks and celebrity-owned bars. The neo-Nazis poured into the historic Metro courthouse to disrupt a City Council meeting, harassed descendants of Holocaust survivors and yelled racist slurs at young Black children performing on a downtown street.

The appearance of white nationalists on the streets of a major American city laid bare the growing brazenness of the two groups, the Patriot Front and the Goyim Defense League. Their provocations enraged and alarmed civic leaders and residents in Nashville, causing the city to grapple with how to confront the groups without violating free speech protections.

Non-paywall link

fpslem ,

For starters, it can not arrest the bartender that punched a nazi after that nazi started a fight.

wkrn.com/…/dont-just-stand-by-man-recounts-being-…

My dude didn’t deserve to be arrested, he deserved to drink for free throughout Lower Broadway!

corsicanguppy ,

I vote snipers.

Aim for the hoods.

This is why I don’t get to run a town, but I stand by my opinion here.

LostWanderer ,

They are being disruptive in a way that isn’t kind; arrests would be the best way to deal with them. They are white nationalists, shouting slurs at black people who are fellow citizens in the USA, we should not let them believe this behavior will go unpunished. It will make it worse in the future, enabling hate groups to thrive is something a sane country should never allow.

cynthorpe ,

It’s okay to kill Nazis just for being Nazis.

njm1314 ,

100%

OutlierBlue ,

About time to put these “stand your ground” laws to work.

AmbiguousProps ,

Gather up all of your neighbors and go punch some Nazi trash.

MyOpinion ,

Arrest them for an unlawful assembly like they do to everyone else they don’t want marching.

Someonelol ,
@Someonelol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Treat them like our American predecessors did. If they’re wearing swastikas then shoot the fuckers.

bitjunkie ,

There are several amendments for that

Coach ,

Yeah, I don’t give a flying fuck about a Nazi’s First Amendment rights, just like they don’t give a flying fuck about anyone else’s rights.

solsangraal ,
CaptainKickass ,

Make the world a better place

Punch a Nazi in the face

AnalogJack ,

I need that on a t-shirt

Hptyhop84 ,

The greatest generation knew how to deal with Nazis. Flamethrowers, bombs, artillery & bayonets. That’s all the conversation needed.

PugJesus ,

No, no, you see, war is bad, therefore, we should take the high road and let the Nazis slaughter us while we lodge diplomatic complaints at the UN in the hope of getting them to stop, eventually, someday. /s

Reality_Suit ,

If you punch a nazi, and you get two friends to punch a nazi and then they get two friends to punch nazis, before you know it, everyone is punching nazis.

CaptainKickass ,

My favorite shampoo commercial, even better

AbidanYre ,

Jake and Elwood knew how to handle it.

PugJesus ,

The brazen appearance of white supremacist groups in Nashville left the city grappling with how to confront hateful speech without violating First Amendment protections.

The neo-Nazis poured into the historic Metro courthouse to disrupt a City Council meeting,

Arrest. Them. Holy shit, that’s something that in any reasonably sized city would be worth at least a night in jail to cool off, even if you were some fucking normie instead of a neonazi fuck. It’s not that fucking hard.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Arrest them for what exactly? Is disrupting a city council meeting anything but a civil infraction?

I don’t want this sort of thing going on, but what law would justify jail time?

I mean maybe they did do something to justify it, but I don’t know that disrupting a city council meeting should land people in jail. People also disrupt city council meetings when they try to pass anti-queer ordinances. And they should.

PugJesus ,

Arrest them for what exactly? Is disrupting a city council meeting anything but a civil infraction?

Criminal trespass, easy. Fuck, that’s levied all the time as a club against left-wing protesters. Yet when actual neonazis show up, they get nothing? Fuck that.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I think the answer to that is not ‘also arrest the Nazis,’ it’s ‘don’t arrest the left-wing protesters either.’

Balancing the scales doesn’t solve the problem.

PugJesus ,

Balancing the scales doesn’t solve the problem.

And neither does playing by the gentleman’s rules of boxing when your opponent is using brass knuckles. Fucking “They go low, we go high”? Did we not learn our lesson? If a weapon is used, the correct answer is to make the opposition see why that weapon was banned in the first place - it’s the same reason why many signatories of the Geneva Protocol allow for retaliation if chemical weapons are used against them.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

So left-wing protesters should continue to be arrested as long as Nazis are also arrested? Really?

PugJesus ,

So left-wing protesters should continue to be arrested as long as Nazis are also arrested? Really?

… what? Not arresting Nazis isn’t going to magically un-arrest left-wing protesters.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

It’s also not going to arrest Nazis that have already done these things. So how about we don’t arrest anyone for protesting and just make it legal from now on?

hypnotoad__ ,
@hypnotoad__@lemmy.ml avatar

I’m sure police chiefs will get right on that

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I’m sure police chiefs will get right on arresting Nazis too. What’s your point? We shouldn’t advocate for not arresting people for protesting?

PugJesus ,

It’s also not going to arrest Nazis that have already done these things.

You’re fucking kidding me, right? You don’t pre-arrest people. You arrest people after they’ve done shit.

So how about we don’t arrest anyone for protesting and just make it legal from now on?

God, why didn’t we think of that brilliant solution before? How many left-wing lawyers and political organizations have simply overlooked that we can just make it legal to protest?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I see, this is one of these “never try” situations. We could never stop left-wing protesters from being arrested so we should never try to stop it and advocate for that to end and instead just call for other people to be arrested too.

Because we shouldn’t want people to have rights, we should want other people’s rights taken away.

PugJesus ,

I see, this is one of these “never try” situations. We could never stop left-wing protesters from being arrested so we should never try to stop it and advocate for that to end and instead just call for other people to be arrested too.

No, it’s apparently one of those noble martyrdom things, where the correct response to getting brutalized by Nazis is to roll over and show how very moral you are by just passively taking it.

Because we shouldn’t want people to have rights, we should want other people’s rights taken away.

You do realize that this is already happening to left-wing protesters, right? The only thing you’re advocating for is that left-wing protesters get the full force of the state laid down on them while Nazis are allowed to roam free because “It wouldn’t be fair” to apply the same goddamn laws to them as long as those laws are on the books.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

You’ve convinced me. Never try to get back rights that were taken away from you. Just get vengeance.

PugJesus ,

Vengeance is when you show why mutual disarmament is a good idea instead of showing that you won’t fight back, and the less you fight back, the less vengeful you are.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Got it. Fight back, but not for your rights which have been taken away from you.

PugJesus ,

You do realize a society can do more than one thing at a time, right?

Like, demanding police chiefs to arrest Nazis under the same circumstances that they arrest left-wing protesters is not going to magically diminish the work of left-wing lawyers and politicians to redefine the rules so that protesters, in general, are not being arrested. Even application is kind of the point of laws, and not simply allowing but actually advocating that an unequal application of the law be perpetuated (because it wouldn’t be fair if the Nazis got the same treatment as left-wing protesters) is, itself, incredibly damaging to the legitimacy of the government as a whole.

Fuck’s sake.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Like, demanding police chiefs to arrest Nazis under the same circumstances that they arrest left-wing protesters is not going to magically diminish the work of left-wing lawyers and politicians to redefine the rules so that protesters, in general, are not being arrested.

That… was literally what I was saying.

PugJesus ,

That… was literally what I was saying.

Read it again.

Like, demanding police chiefs to arrest Nazis under the same circumstances that they arrest left-wing protesters is not going to magically diminish the work of left-wing lawyers and politicians to redefine the rules so that protesters, in general, are not being arrested.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Okay, but it won’t happen, so what’s the point of demanding it rather than just working to redefine those roles and working to elect politicians who will do so?

It reminds me of some vegans who go out and protest meat eating. That’s not going to stop people eating meat. Working on campaigns to convince people why they should stop eating meat is what should be concentrated on.

I do not see what demanding they be arrested accomplishes when you and I both know they won’t be.

PugJesus ,

Okay, but it won’t happen so what’s the point of demanding it

This you?

I see, this is one of these “never try” situations. We could never stop left-wing protesters from being arrested so we should never try to stop it and advocate for that to end

And furthermore, it’s a lot easier to get cops to arrest people than to get cops to not arrest people.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t know how I could have been any more clear that I was being sarcastic.

PugJesus ,

… yes. You were being sarcastic. Which is what makes that response contradict your current point.

You mock the idea that we should never try to stop something because “We could never stop it”, yet, then say, without any sarcasm or irony, “Okay, but it won’t happen so what’s the point of demanding it” on another issue.

Do you… not see the contradiction?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I’m saying arresting Nazis won’t happen but changing the laws to make it so that protesters won’t get arrested at all is a possibility, especially on a regional or local level.

One relies on the cops cooperating. The other relies on just telling them they can’t even be there.

PugJesus ,

I’m saying arresting Nazis won’t happen

Yes, and you dismiss the idea of attempting it because “it will never happen” after mocking the approach of “It won’t happen so why try”.

I legitimately don’t know how to simplify this any further.

One relies on the cops cooperating. The other relies on just telling them they can’t even be there.

Do you… do you think the cops listen when they’re told not to be somewhere and they want to be there? Do you think that’s not cooperation?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Yes. I think cops will not go places if they’re told they will be facing things like fines if they do. They like getting paid.

And I think it’s much easier to do that on a local level than telling them to go arrest the Nazis.

PugJesus ,

Yes. I think cops will not go places if they’re told they will be facing things like fines if they do. They like getting paid.

So there’s the power to coerce cops to follow the law, but not the power to coerce cops to do their job and ensure others are following the law. Do we have the power to make cops enforce any laws?

And I think it’s much easier to do that on a local level than telling them to go arrest the Nazis.

You think it’s easier to make cops respect people’s rights than it is to get them to arrest people they don’t give a fuck about.

Okay.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

So there’s the power to coerce cops to follow the law, but not the power to coerce cops to do their job and ensure others are following the law. Do we have the power to make cops enforce any laws?

Yes. It’s called money.

You think it’s easier to make cops respect people’s rights than it is to get them to arrest people they don’t give a fuck about.

Yes, if it costs them money.

ShepherdPie ,

Left-wing protestors not getting arrested isn’t even on the table here, so I don’t see why the argument should be couched based on that.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Why isn’t it on the table? Shouldn’t it be on the table?

ShepherdPie ,

Because allowing these nazis to continue marching in the street will have zero impact on what happens to left-wing protestors, and denying these nazis the right to march on the streets will also have zero impact on what happens to left-wing protestors.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Okay, but you said left-wing protesters not getting arrested isn’t on the table. Why not? Why shouldn’t we do what we can to change that?

grue ,

Left-wing protestors respect the social contract. NAZIs don’t, and therefore do not deserve to be protected by it.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

People don’t deserve equal rights under the law? Are you sure that’s the position you want to take up? Because it sounds like a very Republican position.

JJROKCZ ,

Arrest any and all groups that storm in and disrupt government functions, simple as that

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Which means that people in the government can argue that virtually anything the government does is a “government function.” Mayor’s press conference? Government function. Better arrest those protesters. Governor’s mansion? It has public tours. That’s a government function. Better arrest those protestors.

Look what happened without that law when a president wanted a photo op with a Bible in front of a church. And you want to make that even easier?

JJROKCZ ,

You can protest outside the building perfectly fine, storming into the chambers and stopping the agenda is blatant disruption and I won’t argue it.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

But how do you make it clear that is the government function that can’t be disrupted but the press conference afterward can because it does not count as a government function?

JJROKCZ ,

Don’t enter government grounds for your protests… do it outside the building.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Outside the building is often government grounds too. Those buildings can be in plazas which are entirely government-owned.

So, again, you’re saying you can’t protest the press conference (except from a great distance).

grue ,

Balancing the scales doesn’t solve the problem.

Good point: the correct answer is, don’t treat them equally, because they don’t act equally. What we should be doing is exactly the opposite of what we are doing: fucking-up the NAZIs while leaving the left-wing protestors alone.

This is not hypocrisy, by the way. This is a simple application of consequences: those who do not respect the social contract do not deserve to be protected by it.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

It may not be hypocrisy, but it is suggesting that the law continue to be applied unequally (just the opposite way around), which is definitely not a progressive position.

JoMiran ,
@JoMiran@lemmy.ml avatar

Criminal trespass…

Most city council meetings are legally open to the public. It is in fact their main purpose.

PugJesus ,

Most city council meetings are legally open to the public. It is in fact their main purpose.

I’m used to normal city council meetings being private, and public ones being the exception.

Nougat ,

Civil disobedience can get you arrested, and while you might beat the rap, you can't beat the ride.

ShepherdPie ,

After seeing federal agents literally kidnapping people off the streets of Portland for “looking like protesters,” yes absolutely they can arrest them even if the charges are bullshit or won’t stick.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Not if they don’t get paid for it.

aodhsishaj ,

Both you and @FlyingSquid are arguing the same point. The only difference is @FlyingSquid wants nobody arrested and you want to also arrest the Nazis.

First of all ACAB let it be known. However I think it’s more likely to get a local city council to allow for anyone using intimidating imagery, (defined by swastika and similar iconography) to be detained and removed from chambers. It’s been done elsewhere with great effect.

The issue is how to get it enforced because unfortunately, those that burn crosses are the same that join forces.

smithsonianmag.com/…/long-painful-history-police-…

law.stackexchange.com/…/public-display-of-swastik…

pbs.org/…/germanys-laws-antisemitic-hate-speech-n…

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