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IndustryStandard ,

Does Bernie want to lose?

orcrist ,

We saw mass media and the Dems pull the same thing in 2004. Decide a candidate is unelectable, before the election, and then make it happen. What happened to letting the voters decide? What happened to democracy? Meh.

It was sick then, and it is sick now. If the man is too old, OK, but we all knew his age a year ago. To pretend to be surprised and concerned now is laughable.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

What happened to letting the voters decide?

“Everyone needs to get out and vote!”

voters start bickering over who to vote for

“NOT LIKE THAT!”

If the man is too old, OK, but we all knew his age a year ago.

Which is why its crazy he didn’t have any kind of primary contender. Hell, its crazy he didn’t just wrap this at one term and pass the torch to any of a number of popular and highly competent governors.

orcrist ,

I totally agree with you. My speculation is that people in power in the DNC didn’t want to push for a younger candidate because then that candidate would immediately seize a lot of power. Perhaps they were disagreeing on who would be the best person, and they figured that some old man is low risk because he’s going to retire soon enough anyway. But that’s all blind speculation. A lot of what the DNC does happens behind closed doors.

demizerone ,

Kamala - Bernie. Let it happen you fucks!

Breezy ,

No, biden then bernie. Its the only way bernie would be president

ThomasCrooksIsHero ,

As much as it pains me, Bernie is too old. He’s been my primary for years, but we need some sub 65 contenders.

maniii ,

Drumpf is a living survivor martyr. Nothing is now gonna hold anything back. Every thing is now going to hit the fan.

JasonDJ ,

Honestly second thing I thought of when I saw it. First was that it was staged.

Milk_Sheikh ,

A thought I haven’t seen offered much, but could give Biden an ego-soothing role instead of being put out to political pasture - a Harris:Biden ticket.

She gets to be the energetic go-getter at the front (that the Maga hate-oil salesmen are shrieking about atm) while Biden can play the ‘elder statesman’ role of advice and experience to Kamala instead of running himself. You defuse a lot of the competency/decline arguments against Biden, and gird against one of Harris’s biggest threats - her lack of international experience.

Kamala is not a political unknown, but Biden is losing/equal right now to Trump with the DNC money & publicity machine working for him the last eight years. I’d argue Harris has a better shot if those efforts are swung her way. I don’t like Harris, but needn’t convince me to vote team blue - it’s the ~9% undecided we need to convince.

akakunai ,

I mean, this isn’t an awful idea…

The real world logistics probably make this more complicated than implied, but I don’t mind the intent.

abracaDavid ,

It’s not a good idea because Kamala is pretty unpopular.

She comes off as out of touch and condescending, just like another certain candidate that lost to Trump in 2016.

akakunai ,

I agree, she’s not the candidate I’d want leading the dems—far from it. But people are used to voting between a Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich as their president. Biden is something different, more agreeable than some other candidates the Dems have run. But people are seriously concerned about voting for a man who’s mental acuity is declining rapidly towards senility and very possibly will not live through 2028.

Plus, I haven’t read too far into it but I’ve heard that only Kamala would be able to use the Biden/Harris campaign war-chest. It’s sad as hell that that is so important, but it is nonetheless.

Rooskie91 ,

Oh, haha, first time trying to unify the left, huh?

DragonTypeWyvern ,

He’s just done with our shenanigans

TropicalDingdong ,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/baadb88e-a1ba-4f67-bc80-111152c795fb.gif

sparkle ,

Italians:https://lemm.ee/pictrs/image/3246a507-47f5-4942-ad29-380db1d6a77c.jpeg

Vendul ,

Bernie or bust!

HubertManne ,

I agree. The asked. Biden responded. Move on. The ticket has a vp. Its fine.

WatDabney ,

I'm with him 100% on the first bit - at this point, the single most important thing the Dems have to do is stop bickering.

As for the rest, at this point I don't even much care. I can see arguments both for and against in both directions - either choice is going to involve some risk but either choice can be made to succeed.

So the important thing, and really the ONLY important thing, is to pick one and run with it. Stop with the dilly-dallying and the second-guessing and the bitching and moaning and hand-wringing and make a choice and stick with it, so we can focus ALL of our attention on pounding those fucking fascist traitors' dicks into the dirt.

grrgyle ,

This Bernie guy seems pretty energetic and popular… why not put him on the ballot?

derpgon ,

I’d definitely do a double take. A good political decision? In the USA?

iAvicenna ,
@iAvicenna@lemmy.world avatar

Let’s see, just to name a few: openly against civil gun ownership, openly against expensive private healthcare, openly against zionism and Israel’s occupation of Gaza. This pisses off a lot of very powerful people, so probably not gonna happen

EnderWiggin ,

Fucking thank you, Bernie. Glad someone with a spine said it.

TheDemonBuer ,
@TheDemonBuer@lemmy.world avatar

I think most Dems, especially those who are highly politically engaged and closely follow election news, are going to vote blue no matter who. So, I think Bernie is preaching to the choir here. I think the Dems who are worried about Biden are worried he doesn’t have enough support among independents, and they feel independents are much less likely to just vote for the Democrat, no matter who it is.

Now, could just any candidate replace Biden and automatically win back any of the independents he is believed to have lost? I don’t know. A lot of Dems seem to think that just about any other candidate would do better than Biden among independents right now, but I’m not so sure.

return2ozma OP ,
@return2ozma@lemmy.world avatar

Remember, Bernie Sanders did FORTY TWO events for Hillary after she was the chosen Dem candidate. More events than even she did for her own campaign!

Then she had this to say about Bernie in her Hulu doc: x.com/bobby/status/1236349383890931713

blindbunny ,

What an ungrateful cunt. I don’t want to be in hell with that removed.

dactylotheca , (edited )
@dactylotheca@suppo.fi avatar

Calling her a cunt is unfair: she lacks both the warmth and the depth

casmael ,

Hear hear

misterdoctor ,

I don’t want to be in hell with that removed.

Dying to know which word got removed when “cunt” was perfectly acceptable.

blindbunny ,

B I T C H but even then I could be referencing a female dog.

misterdoctor ,

So, we’re allowed to say cunt but not The B Word™️?

blindbunny ,

That appears to be the case

h3mlocke ,

🫡

otp ,

Lmao…I guess lemmy.ml didn’t want to be unfair to Australians!

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Progressives need to learn this lesson: liberals will always shift the blame.

return2ozma OP ,
@return2ozma@lemmy.world avatar

Correct

CosmicTurtle0 ,

Hillary, much like Trump, is a symptom of what is wrong with the Democrats. “It was her turn” spat in the face of people who were excited about a progressive candidate and made the whole primary a sham.

She was a terrible candidate. She was a bitter pill that many independents said “enough is enough” and voted third party or not voted at all.

I am deeply concerned that as the Republicans move more toward fascism, the left are not going to have great candidates. We’re going to get established, wealthy-class friendly candidates who are willing to throw crumbs at the working class. They’ll bitch and moan about how they are losing voters, never looking at themselves, never realizing that we are literally voting to just survive.

This election will be just like 2020. We aren’t voting for Biden. We’re voting against fascism.

And I’m personally getting fucking tired of Democrats seeing that as a win.

sukhmel , (edited )

I am deeply concerned that as the Republicans move more toward fascism, the left are not going to have great candidates

Well, the Republicans Democrats will have an option of being “less fascist party” by then. I feel like the future is not too bright, somehow

Edit: mixed the opposites somehow 🫠

Clinicallydepressedpoochie ,

Oh, now I understand. She’s like, a real housewife of DC.

JimVanDeventer ,

Hillary “I believe marriage is between a man and a woman” Clinton. Yeah. Keep on satisfying those poor, misguided progressives.

Facebones ,

"Dont like the choices? Get over yourselves"

  • Hillary like 6 months ago
Throw_away_migrator ,

I think the other concern is voter turnout/enthusiasm. The last presidential election had extremely high turnout. Even if voters (in swing states) don’t switch candidates but opt to stay home instead that could translate into a significant electoral problem too.

Habahnow ,

You do have a point that turn out Is important, but a potential replacement candidate isn’t guaranteed to increase turn out, they could be worse. And they would only have 4 months to try to fix things, which isn’t a lot of time.

JustEnoughDucks ,
@JustEnoughDucks@feddit.nl avatar

Turnout is literally everything. It is literally more turnout = Democrat win literally every single election in america. Low turnout in 2016 still resulted in trump losing the popular vote. America’s voting system is messed up, but then so is UK’s parliamentary first past the post system and Belgium’s 6 governments.

fine_sandy_bottom ,

I think you might be missing the point though.

Those highly politically engaged Dem voters who will vote blue no matter who are bickering about whether Biden is the right choice, and the swing voters are paying attention.

To an undecided voter, it doesn’t inspire much confident to see that Biden’s own supporters don’t think he can do the job.

The bickering amongst those who will vote blue anyway is costing the votes from the undecideds that Biden so desperately needs.

return2ozma OP ,
@return2ozma@lemmy.world avatar

The opinion piece: www.nytimes.com/2024/…/joe-biden-president.html

JimSamtanko ,

All the socialist’s heads just exploded.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

No, we left this lib behind a long time ago.

We’re all China-stans now.

pivot_root ,

The US might be a capitalist, colonialist country sprinkled with panderings of faux-socialism and heading towards fascism, but I would hardly call that an improvement over another capitalist-in-all-but-name, fascist, colonialist country with eroded communist foundations.

Whatever atrocities you believe the US is committing in terms of subjugating and exploiting poorer countries and its own working class, China is doing the same thing but only with a bit more subtlety.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

When was the last time China invaded an oil-rich country, overthrew their government, and killed a million people?

If you want to dream up Chinese imperialism whenever China builds roads in another country, you still have to grapple with the fact that they don’t build those roads on the graves of martyrs that died trying to defend their homeland.

pivot_root , (edited )

Considering China is allied with Russia and buys nearly half of their crude oil exports, they haven’t needed to invade other countries for oil. I’ll give you that, but at the same time, they’re also indirectly assisting and allied with a country that is happily trying to extinguish the entirety of Ukraine.

Roads and ports. With abusive conditions that all but make it impossible for the poorer countries to satisfy their terms, ultimately leading to China being free to claim the infrastructure they built on foreign soil as their own. They might not be as obvious about it as the United States, but they are still a captialist, colonialist country antithetical to communist goals.

Every global superpower does their fair share of this shit. The countries we should actually be looking up to are the socialist/communist ones that rapidly accelerated their growth and citizens’ quality of life before being destabilized by an existing global superpower (usually, the United States).

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

they’re also indirectly assisting and allied with a country that is happily trying to extinguish the entirety of Ukraine.

Hyperbole does not help your case.

A war to extinguish a nation looks more like what Israel is doing in Gaza. Compare the number of children, medical staff, UN aid workers, and other noncombatants that have been murdered. Compare the total eradication of all homes, businesses, universities, hospitals, religious institutions, historic sites. Russia, by contrast, is waging a war of conquest and assimilation.

All China is doing is trading with them, and not even trading weapons or munitions! It’s just normal commerce. Let’s compare again with Israel and how the US is providing it unlimited bombs and heavy equipment and fucking jets it needs to do its genocide.

When you compare the two the stark contrast makes your hyperbolic claims into a joke.

With abusive conditions that all but make it impossible for the poorer countries to satisfy their terms,

They forgive the loans they give to those poorer countries when they can’t repay and are always willing to refinance.

Compare that to the IMF which sells off public assets to private interests and imposes austerity measures onto the people, letting the US infiltrate the government and set up counter-terror operations and win exclusive trade deals to superexploit the people.

Again, compare and contrast. The US isn’t merely worse, it has different objectives. One is imperialist, one is internationalist.

Every global superpower does their fair share of this shit. The countries we should actually be looking up to are the socialist/communist ones that rapidly accelerated their growth and citizens’ quality of life before being destabilized by an existing global superpower (namely, the United States).

This is why China is the way it is. China has to ally itself with Russia and it has to wield state capitalism, or else it would end up the same as every other socialist experiment the US destroyed. If China cut off every country that US says is evil then it will lose all its allies, and then the US will just turn around and declare that the world needs to stop doing business with China.

Instead, China saw right through that, and with BRICs the dedollerization of the global economy is inevitable. The Communist Party of China has done more to destroy US imperialism than any communist party in every other country combined.

Grow up.

odium , (edited )

When was the last time the US tried to erase a people’s culture? And when was the last time China tried that? When was the second to last time China tried that? What about the third to last time?

Both countries are imperialistic in different ways. One does most of its atrocities to the citizens of other countries and one does most of its atrocities to its own citizens. Neither should be looked up to.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

When was the last time the US committed cultural genocide?

When it caused one million deaths in Iraq through direct and indirect warfare for no reason. It currently has a direct hand in the genocide happening in Gaza right now.

Or how about when ICE was caught sterilizing migrant women in detention centers? They were doing that as recently as 2020, and there’s a long history of forced sterilization in the US.

Compare and contrast. Look at Gaza, look at Xinjiang province, try to spot the difference! Can you do it?

Neither should be looked up to.

There’s no other choice. You can’t just think up an idealistic imaginary third option. The US or China. Choose

odium , (edited )

There’s no other choice. You can’t just think up an idealistic imaginary third option. The US or China. Choose

There are other choices. There is no forced binary. There are around 200 countries currently in existence that you can look up to and many more past countries that no longer exist that you can look up to too. Or, like me, you can not look up to any country. The perfect system doesn’t have to be already invented and in practice. Karl Marx did not look up to any countries when creating his system.

I believe that every country currently in existence has flaws and do not look up to any of them.

Killing civilians in Iraq is evil. Killing civilians in Gaza is evil. Sterilizing people is evil. The USSR and US proxy wars were evil. Installing dictators in South America is evil. None of these, however, are an attempt to erase a culture. There is a thriving hispanic culture in the US and the US government isn’t erasing it. There are thriving sub cultures for every out-group in the US.

Not that erasing a culture is more or less evil than these things. I do not engage in the ranking of atrocities. Atrocities are atrocities and I hate them all.

Erasing the culture of the Uyghurs is also evil. Sterilizing Uyghurs is evil. Invading and erasing the culture of Tibet is evil. Erasing the culture of all of China with the cultural revolution is evil. One child policy is evil.

Removing citizens’ rights to talk freely about the government and society and protest what they dislike about them is evil. Censorship is evil. I’m in the US and I said all that about the US being evil and am not going to face any consequences and my comment will not be taken down.

Not recognizing same sex marriage is evil. Someone who claims to be queer ought to recognize that and not look up to countries which don’t recognize it.

pivot_root ,

There are other choices. There is no forced binary. There are around 200 countries currently in existence that you can look up to and many more past countries that no longer exist that you can look up to too.

Thank you! Exactly! It’s not just the US or China/Russia/NK. There are a couple hundred options, many of which are happy to coexist and aren’t vying to become the one true empire of the planet.

JimSamtanko ,

Aaaaaand that’s why no one takes your seriously.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Oh no, libs don’t take me seriously! 😭

JimSamtanko ,

Ahhh yes. This reminds me SO much of my edgy high school years. It was our little grassroots movement vs the world! And we had EVERYTHING figured out. No one could tell us that we’re wrong in any way and we had Pat Benetar to back that up!

We knew it all!

Then we grew up and realized we didn’t know shit. We found out that the world doesn’t work the way we want it to and it never will, because we aren’t the only ones that live here. Looking back, it was incredibly stupid and naive to think that life in politics were that simple.

“Just do this thing we want! It’s that easy!”

and…

“We reject your reality and replaced it with our own!”

The problem is: the rest of the world didn’t work with the reality we created for ourselves.

Man… I miss those days, but living in reality has its merits as well. One of them is being taken seriously by people regardless of whether or not I share a core political values.

I hope you get the same chances I did. But times are VERY different. You may not be afforded the luxury to have the freedoms I had come January.

Now, go on- say something edgy so everyone knows you didn’t just get wrecked.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

What the fuck are you talking about? I’m siding with China. You know, the worlds second largest economy? A billion people?

Hardly a little grassroots movement. I live in the reality where China is the only serious challenge to the US. What about you?

JimSamtanko ,

So… you’re a non-Chinese citizen- … siding with China. That’s about as grass roots as it gets.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Do you think zero people outside of China look up to their accomplishments?

JimSamtanko ,

I think very few do. China is an antagonist to MANY countries. You think America is bad, china is doing exactly what you accuse America of, they just are FAR more subtle about it.

What makes me laugh about tankies, is that you support an ideology that stands in defiance of the freedoms you have. Including the freedom you have to chose who to support.

Fucking hilarious.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

I think the US is worse. Even if you think China is a subtle imperial power (how is that supposed to work, exactly?) then you have to acknowledge they’re the lesser of two evils. Unless you think you’re going to dream up an idealist third option to replace them both?

JimSamtanko ,

The US is worse?

Tiananmen Square. Ring a bell? Would you like to discuss it?

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

21 people were arrested for organizing the Tiananman Square protests.

14,000+ were arrested for involvement in the George Floyd Uprisings.

🤔

pivot_root ,

What makes me laugh about tankies, is that you support an ideology that stands in defiance of the freedoms you have. Including the freedom you have to chose who to support.

Well said.

I understand and respect looking up to the achievements of smaller communist states that actually care about their own citizens wellbeing and lack the desire to exploit foreign nations, but China, Russia, and North Korea aren’t in that list. Being a powerless citizen of the United States or other (non-EU) Western countries sucks, but it usually doesn’t suck as badly as being a powerless citizen of those three.

catloaf ,

Or stop bickering and replace him ASAP.

But really, I don’t think this is bickering. I think it’s an intentionally slow drip of news to get people more receptive to the idea of replacing him with Kamala, so that it’s not a bomb dropping all of a sudden, which would likely freak out a bunch of voters and cause them to lose votes. Boil the frog slowly and there’s less of a splash.

CleoTheWizard ,
@CleoTheWizard@lemmy.world avatar

Well honestly it’s going to be a splash either way and the sooner they replace him, the better. Kamala is going to need more time to cook with and the sooner she can get out there, the sooner she can challenge Trump to a debate and flip this country around.

Cocodapuf ,

I think this is the exact idea that Bernie is warning against.

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