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210 Palestinians reportedly killed during Israeli hostage recovery operation

The bodies of 109 Palestinians including 23 children and 11 women were taken to Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital, and spokesperson Khalil Degran told the Associated Press that more than 100 wounded also arrived to the hospital. In addition, he said the rest of the 210 Palestinians killed were taken to Al-Awda Hospital after the spokesman said he spoke to the director there. But the numbers at that hospital could not be confirmed by the AP.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu vowed to continue the war until all hostages are freed, but Bassem Naim, a senior Hamas official now based in Lebanon, struck a drastically different tone.

“The horrific massacre committed today by Netanyahu and his fascist government against the Palestinian people in Gaza, which led to slaughter of 210 and more than 400 wounded so far — under the pretext of liberating those detained by the resistance — confirms what the resistance has said repeatedly: that Netanyahu doesn’t plan to reach an agreement to stop the war and free the captured Israelis peacefully,” Naim said, according to the Associated Press.

boatsnhos931 ,

Another win for lowering our carbon footprint

DaBabyAteMaDingo ,

Wait why is everyone being reasonable and not virtue signaling!? Did I die and leave this hellscape called Lemmy!?

mlg ,
@mlg@lemmy.world avatar

“In international news, the equivalent of five Americans were killed in Afghanistan today”

– The Onion, 2008

masquenox ,

Holy shit… this place is lousy with pro-genocide hasbara.

And it seems the mods are perfectly fine with that… as usual.

Shyfer ,

Damn you were right. Scrolled down a bit and they were all over. Did Hasbara finally find Lemmy, or had there been a new wave of propagandized redditors leaving to come here?

masquenox ,

They’ve been here pretty much since the backlash against Israel began. Some communities have managed to get on top of it and drive them out… but it seems some mod teams are either slow on the uptake or have allowed Israeli sympathizers into their ranks - it’s unfortunately a consequence of liberal “every-opinion-must-be-treated-as-equal” thinking.

ryathal ,

Amazing how reportedly 0 combatants were killed while this rescue happened.

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

At least one IDF soldier was killed.

The Hamas dead isn’t counted separately from the civilians. Never have been. The casualty numbers you see reported is always civilians + Hamas.

Hamas doesn’t wear uniforms, so it’s difficult for a third party to make an assessment on how many combatants have been killed in this war. Also there’s a war happening, so that makes things difficult even when the combatants are all wearing uniforms.

Fedizen ,

how many had weapons?

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

They have weapons stashed all over the place so they can blend in with the civilian population when changing positions. Which is why they don’t wear uniforms.

Smart strategy… if you don’t have any concern for the lives of civilians. Which Hamas doesn’t.

Madison420 ,

No it’s a great strategy either way we just generally assume the other side isn’t jumping with glee to murder indiscriminately.

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

Yes Hamas wants the IDF to kill indiscriminately. It’s why they don’t wear uniforms. That’s the whole point of how they operate.

Madison420 ,

You’re missing the point. The general idea is that an modern organized army would not fire into civilians, you know morality being a thing and all. The IDF doing it anyway proves Hamas point, they’re not seen as people by the Israeli government anymore. You wouldn’t fire indiscriminately into a crowd a sheep to kill the wolf, why would you do the same with people.

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

The point you’re missing is that the tactics of Hamas has resulted in the IDF not being able to distinguish civilians from combatants. There’s a reason why non-uniformed combatants are considered differently (they’re basically just criminals) under international law than uniformed combatants. Because everyone knows when wars are fought by combatants who don’t wear uniforms, there’s a massive increase in civilian casualties.

You’re a 19 year old in a truck and someone is running towards you as fast as they can. You have seconds to determine whether that person is a civilian desperate to get food, or a combatant that’s running towards you to kill you. Both the civilians and the combatants are dressed in the exact same style of clothing. You’re scared and have seconds to make a decision that will either end someone else’s life or end your own life. What happens next?

You can’t understand why it’s criminal for combatants to not wear uniforms? If Hamas cared about their people they’d be wearing uniforms. But Hamas has successfully monetized the deaths of Palestinian civilians which is why they do what they do.

Madison420 ,

I haven’t missed it at all. Duh. That’s still not an excuse to kill in crowds.

That’s not what’s happening here and you know it.

You know the IDF has plain clothes units right? You know who’s made more? Israel, you know who historically has paid Hamas, Israel. Who stands to gain the most, Israel.

Fun question, is Hamas killing civilians in countries they’re not actively at war in? No? So that’s just Israel increasing border tensions then… mmm

Cut the shit bud, you know your argument is shitty and immoral…

Fedizen ,

so the children were killed because…?

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

Because Hamas cowards deliberately fire at an enemy army for locations where there are children.

Agent641 ,

Don’t check the serial numbers on the weapons tho 👉👈

SulaymanF ,

It’s up to 274 dead now.

Knightfox , (edited )

x.com/sentdefender/status/1799715089936761144

Purportedly one of the hostages was being held in the house of an Al-Jazeera journalist/writer/editor and several members of his family were killed while trying to prevent the hostage from being rescued.

EDIT: Turns out he wasn’t an employee of Al-Jazeera, but he wrote opinion pieces for them.

EDIT 2: New article yahoo.com/…/al-jazeera-denies-connection-journali… - It seems that the female hostage was not the one being held at this location, but rather the three men were. The location is an apartment building and the hostages were being held on the 3rd floor while the journalist was living on the first floor. The claim that the journalist and his family were killed comes from a European based Hamas affiliate.

EDIT 3: Another article - timesofisrael.com/…/idf-confirms-abdallah-aljamal… - I don’t read Hebrew, but it looks like IDF is confirming that the journalist and his family were the ones holding the hostages, not just someone in the same building.

EDIT 4: Looks like the US media has gotten hold of the story finally, but it’s mostly NY Post and Fox news. Looks like they’re behind the times because they’re just running the Al-Jazeera angle.

Paddzr ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    DragonTypeWyvern ,

    A fair enough assessment for the adults in the room.

    What about the children?

    Guydht ,

    As sad as it is, they’re not Israel’s responsibility. It’s Israel’s responsibility to minimize their deaths, but not to keep them safe. That’s on Hamas/whoever gets control of Gaza after this war.

    masquenox ,

    they’re not Israel’s responsibility.

    Of course not, hasbara. Absolutely nothing about the genocide Israel is perpetrating is Israel’s responsibility.

    None at all.

    kaffiene ,

    Minimising civilian casualties is literally their responsibility under international law

    Guydht ,

    And that’s also literally what I wrote. You just repeated my sentence. Nice.

    Minimizing ≠ keeping them safe. Read my comment again.

    kaffiene ,

    The post you were responding to was about the death of children. We are talking about casualties, not pastoral care

    Draedron ,

    You are a disgusting piece of shit, hope you know that. Real human filth. Hundreds of people were murdered, many children and you waste of human cells blame the victims.

    maniajack ,

    Oof Google that name and you get basically zero trustworthy news articles either way. Does “purportedly” even count when it’s from twitter? Sounds terrible but I’ll wait for a real source

    Knightfox ,

    Did you Google the name? Because if you had you’d realize it’s not a news organization and they don’t make news articles. OSINT stands for Open Source Intelligence, it’s basically a discord group of people in the intelligence sector posting things they have heard going on. Looking at their Twitter they seem to cover just about anything and everything, they have stuff about Ukraine, Gaza, France, UAE, Venezuela, etc. Looking for other stories it looks like they beat mainstream media to the story by about 10 hrs.

    Looking into the claim itself, it seems that it originated from Israel, but Al-Jazeera’s response isn’t that the guy is innocent but rather that he never worked for them

    timesofisrael.com/…/al-jazeera-denies-rumor-that-…

    www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-805525

    Turns out that the guy had written opinion pieces for Al-Jazeera and he mainly worked for the Palestine Chronicle, which is based out of Washington state. It looks like his information was included on Al-JAzeera because he had written opinion pieces, but wasn’t actually employed by them. Take that for what you will, but it doesn’t change the narrative much.

    maniajack , (edited )

    I meant I googled the name of the person the tweet called out. Not much out there from verified sources is what I was saying. I think a paid for twitter check is probably a negative in the trustworthy dept. Thanks for the extra info though. It just all seems to be a one sided narrative at this point.

    Knightfox ,

    Ah ok, my apologies. Yeah, there’s not much in the way of mainstream international news picking this story up. Pretty much it was just Israel saying they raided XYZ houses, these are the people they found inside. Individuals made the connection to Al-Jazeera and mainstream Israeli media picked it up, but they’ve backed off a bit once Al-Jazeera clarified.

    I’d generally agree with a general dislike of Twitter supporters, but no one has really stepped up to fill in Twitters void (at least that get the same level of traction as Twitter). Paying the Twitter tax still seems to get your information out faster and farther than almost any other alternative. I think the only way Twitter is going to fully fall will be if it no longer is profitable to run, otherwise large groups will continue to use it. One positive is that people seem to be diversifying from Twitter with Lemmy, Mastadon, Reddit, or something else (I guess Discord falls in the something else).

    Now if you’re just a regular person and paying for Twitter blue then I agree that you’re probably not trustworthy or at least a bit stupid.

    EatATaco ,

    Turns out that the guy had written opinion pieces for Al-Jazeera and he mainly worked for the Palestine Chronicle

    So, basically, the tweet is false, as it strongly implies that he was a photojournalist, writer, and editor at Al Jazeera. Certainly you agree because you outright made the claim. On top of that, your link clearly states, and I quote, that they are “unverified rumors that hostage Noa Argamani had been held at his home in central Gaza’s Nuseirat.” Why would al Jazeera make a claim that he wasn’t protecting him if they don’t know? But I don’t even see a link to their denial, so I’m not sure what they actually said.

    No offense, but your post makes me very suspect of your implicit claims that this twitter account is in anyway reliable.

    Knightfox ,

    Eh, I wouldn’t say it’s false. The description of the guy comes from Al-Jazeera’s website where they say he is a reporter and photojournalist and he did write for Al-Jazeera. If Al-Jazeera is going to post his work and list his information on their website I think it’s understandable that people might think he is employed by them.

    As for the attack being unverified, the other link I provided stated that the IDF confirmed that address and house (which is time stamped after the article you are referencing). Additionally, a third party who is identified as a Hamas operative in Europe was referenced as a source for these claims in both articles. I don’t know how much more confirmed you can get unless you’re holding out for Anderson Cooper to be live from the living room?

    Finally, I haven’t seen anywhere that Al-Jazeera is denying he was doing anything, the only thing they appear to be denying is that he was employed by them. Even then, Al-Jazeera doesn’t seem to be making any articles about the guy, the whole thing was correspondence with representatives of Al-Jazeera, this stuff happened so recently I wouldn’t be surprised if Al-Jazeera hasn’t had time to post anything yet. For context, this information is <24 hours old, the first US article I see about it was only posted an hour ago.

    EatATaco ,

    I think it’s understandable that people might think he is employed by them.

    Wait, we are claiming this some kind of intelligence community…but it’s understandable that they can’t even figure out if this guy works for al Jazeera? You’ll have to help me square this.

    But my claim is that the statement is false, not that they intentionally misled, so even if they were understandably confused, that still seems to be untrue.

    I don’t know how much more confirmed you can get unless you’re holding out for Anderson Cooper to be live from the living room?

    I have no need to rush to a conclusion on this. I’m just reporting what one of your links said. In your attempt to rush to a conclusion, you already were convinced of a falsehood. Maybe you should slow down too.

    Even then, Al-Jazeera doesn’t seem to be making any articles about the guy

    I can’t help but read your points as attempting to paint al Jazeera as some bad guy in this whole thing. How long ago was this tweet that is from some group that you claim is 10 hours ahead of the news? And we’re being critical of al Jazeera for not rushing out an article in that time?

    Knightfox ,

    But my claim is that the statement is false, not that they intentionally misled, so even if they were understandably confused, that still seems to be untrue.

    But it isn’t inaccurate, that’s the thing. The Twitter post says, “a Photojournalist and Writer/Editor for both Al-Jazeera and the Palestinian Chronicle.” That is factually true…

    claiming this some kind of intelligence community…but it’s understandable that they can’t even figure out if this guy works for al Jazeera? You’ll have to help me square this.

    The group is a discord channel for people in the intelligence sector, I don’t know what you need squared about that. Take it for what it is, an early alert gossip mill by people who hear things before most other people do.

    I have no need to rush to a conclusion on this. I’m just reporting what one of your links said. In your attempt to rush to a conclusion, you already were convinced of a falsehood. Maybe you should slow down too.

    I haven’t rushed to any conclusions, I’ve been sharing news articles as they come out.

    I can’t help but read your points as attempting to paint al Jazeera as some bad guy in this whole thing.

    Whether you pay them or not, posting articles from potential terrorists isn’t a good look. The same can be said about any media group associating with terrorists, the same happened with CNN, NY Times, and Associated Press on October 7th.

    How long ago was this tweet that is from some group that you claim is 10 hours ahead of the news? And we’re being critical of al Jazeera for not rushing out an article in that time?

    Not sure why you’re asking me when something was posted when I shared the link to it, that’s just lazy. I never criticized Al-Jazeera for not publishing a response, I simply stated that they haven’t, and my response about that was even understanding that not much time has passed?

    I think you’re the one rushing to conclusions and should slow down.

    Epicmulch ,

    Well all those people definitely weren’t just civilians. Why would civilians be holding hostages? That means those people were combats. That’s a good thing then.

    masquenox ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    fukhueson ,

    While not all of them were combatants, it only makes sense that Hamas would hold civilians in direct danger because they can’t win otherwise. IDF would wipe the floor with Hamas in direct conflict as Israel’s military power is far greater than Hamas, so Hamas is resorting to using civilians to prevent military action around their territory. Hamas then can use this against Israel in a lawfare sense when netanyahu attacks.

    The issue ultimately is the intentional presence of civilians in these active military areas. Normally you wouldn’t bomb schools, but when Hamas sets up shop in these typically protected areas and starts launching missiles from them they start losing that protection. This is a win-win for Hamas, they can call Israel out for being reckless if they’re attacked and use down time to recuperate when Israel is restrained. Though, if you can’t win without subjecting your own people to your own deliberate war crimes, I think you have an obligation to surrender, you clearly don’t have your own people’s interest at heart.

    So, sure one could say “what else is Hamas supposed to do? They’re outgunned, how else are they supposed to fight?” Answer is you don’t. Hamas shouldn’t have attacked in October and made the choice to subsequently hide behind civilians, they should surrender for the better of Palestinians.

    Shyfer ,

    There’s nowhere else for Hamas to set up. There’s civilians in all of Gaza. It’s an extremely densely populated region, even more so now that it’s being cleared and destroyed. Second, Hamas was created in response to Israeli aggression that already existed. Surrendering would just bring them to the status quo that inspired the First Intifada, when Palestinians were still being attacked, killed, restricted, oppressed, and their land steadily taken for more than 20 years already. People don’t respond well to that and to expect them to sit there and being slowly ethnically cleansed again is unrealistic. The correct take is to oppose Israel and it’s settler colonialism.

    fukhueson ,

    Got a source saying there’s literally nowhere else for Hamas to go? I don’t believe that at all.

    Epicmulch ,

    They have to hide behind school children don’t you understand there isn’t anywhere else to stand!

    Shyfer ,

    A map and basic understanding of indigenous resistance.

    Epicmulch ,

    If you actually think this is a settler vs native thing you are cherry picking your history lessons.

    Shyfer ,

    It sounds like the opposite. Do you even know what Zionism is? It’s calling for a place Jews from all over the world can go via. They bring in people from all over the world, lots of them have dual citizenships. Because Jewish people can trace genealogic origins there from thousands of years ago doesn’t make some lady from Europe or New York the same as some local Palestinian kid at all. They then kick out the natives and give their homes to these settlers. They’ve been doing it since the 40’s. People can look over the wall and see where they, their parents, or their grandparents used to live.

    I recommend looking up the history of Zionism, including the European Jews that forwarded it, like Theodore Herzl, and the different places they considered for it (Uganda,Argentina, Cyprus, etc) before settling on Palestine.

    Epicmulch ,

    Don’t cherry pick now. Go farther back.

    The original homeland of the Jewish people is the region historically known as the Land of Israel, also referred to as Canaan, and later as Palestine. This area is located in the modern-day state of Israel, as well as parts of the Palestinian territories (the West Bank and Gaza Strip), and parts of neighboring countries such as Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria. Historically significant cities in this region include Jerusalem, Hebron, and Bethlehem.

    Shyfer , (edited )

    But with that logic, my friends have the right to go to Italy and Ireland, kick out native Italians and Irish and take their houses, because they’re Italian-American or Irish-American. That’s not how it works or how it should work. Its the same reason I wouldn’t have supported the Liberia project of having African-Americans go back to Africa and kick out and oppress the natives just because they were mistreated in the US, if I was alive at the time. It led to centuries of indigenous oppression and civil wars, like Israel and Palestine nowadays. We shouldn’t be looking to imitate that level of colonial superiority anywhere else.

    Epicmulch ,

    You’re right looking at this situation like it about settlers and natives is totally silly.

    Epicmulch ,

    Totally agree. Hamas sucks.

    Regrettable_incident ,
    @Regrettable_incident@lemmy.world avatar

    The children too?

    medicsofanarchy , (edited )
    @medicsofanarchy@lemmy.world avatar

    Oh, how terrible. If only someone could, I don’t know, return the remaining hostages and end this. Or stop hiding among civilians. But no,…

    PS - downvote away, those who wish Hummus to continue endangering civilians.

    PPS - “Your boos mean nothing. I’ve seen what makes you cheer.”

    dept ,

    Israel has said it will not stop even if they release the rest of the hostages.

    medicsofanarchy ,
    @medicsofanarchy@lemmy.world avatar

    Good. “Hamas” needs to go away.

    ChairmanMeow ,
    @ChairmanMeow@programming.dev avatar

    Imagine coming home to find your family was burnt to a crisp and your house and belongings torched by a foreign nation’s military.

    Do you expect this person to shrug it off and say “ah just collateral damage” or do you become vulnerable to propaganda from a group that says “I told you so, they’re evil and must be destroyed”?

    When we watched Luke Skywalker take up arms and join an armed rebellion against the evil empire after they murdered his family, we all cheered. But when the perpetrator doesn’t look like a comicbook villain, things are suddenly less clear.

    Point it, Hamas can’t be defeated like this. Every bombing of a civilian home creates more Hamas terrorists. When left no choice, people will choose violence. And to them it seems clear that Israel gives them no choice. From the safety of our homes we can see that Hamas is not worthy of any praise and that their actions are deeply reprehensible. But they live amongst the rubble caused by Israeli bombs; they won’t see it that way.

    This is a violent path that can only lead to genocide, which must be prevented. If we truly want there to be peace, both sides must concede things. Otherwise Hamas or its successor will just come back.

    medicsofanarchy ,
    @medicsofanarchy@lemmy.world avatar

    You make a strong point, and all of it makes sense. This is NOT a simple, black-and-white/either-or situation. Upvoted.

    I think the Israeli thought might be along the lines of:

    Imagine you see your neighbor supporting a bunch of terrorists in their home. Suddenly their home is bombed and turned into a parking lot. Maybe you’ll think long and hard when a terrorist group knocks on your door and asks to hide there for a while. The only problem is, do they ask or just come in uninvited?

    Fixing this would ideally not involve guns, but it doesn’t work this way, at least not well. The only way this can end is if Hamas is destroyed and Gaza is occupied - by Israel or the UN - and rising terrorist groups are infiltrated and nullified before they can reach the stage of endangering their neighbors, until the entire population grasps and can control a self-government process.

    If the people of Gaza assist in any way in destroying Hamas, this ends sooner and lives are saved. And the people aren’t there yet - Hamas was their government, so…

    Again, not a great solution.

    But I find it interesting that almost every comment I receive is “But look what the Israelis did to us years and years ago…” These commenters should grow the fuck up. Get over it. And no, I’m not a Native American so I don’t have a first-hand experience of it. But just as the Native Americans fought for years by using raids, kidnappings, outpost torching… wow, this looks familiar. And they didn’t win either. The same thing is going to happen to Hamas and those who support them.

    Again, Hamas has publicly stated that they will not stop killing until Israel is wiped off the map. We can figure it out from there how this has to go.

    dependencyinjection ,

    So what’s an acceptable number of innocent people being murdered to recover other innocent people, in this instance four?

    Is 100 acceptable? 1000? 10000? Everybody?

    As per your P.S. How come you don’t see the same from the Israelis, they’re endangering civilians too?

    What the IDF is doing is terroristic, as is what Hamas has done. So either you’re for terrorism or against it, you can’t say it’s ok for one side and not the other.

    The fact is Israel is an apartheid state and they have been stealing land for decades. What would you do if you were a victim of this?

    Furthermore, the hostages could have been returned many time with any one of the ceasefire deals on the table, but the Israeli government want blood not the hostages.

    medicsofanarchy ,
    @medicsofanarchy@lemmy.world avatar

    You deserve an answer. An acceptable number of innocents, in a perfect world, is Zero. But who is in control of that? Hummus.

    As per your P.S. How come you don’t see the same from the Israelis, they’re endangering civilians too?

    “Whataboutism” is lame.

    The fact is Israel is an apartheid state and they have been stealing land for decades. What would you do if you were a victim of this?

    Probably not invade, kill and kidnap innocent people, and run away to hide among women and children. But that’s me. Obviously it’s okay for Hummus /s

    What the IDF is doing is terroristic, as is what Hamas has done. So either you’re for terrorism or against it, you can’t say it’s ok for one side and not the other.

    See above.

    Furthermore, the hostages could have been returned many time with any one of the ceasefire deals on the table, but the Israeli government want blood not the hostages.

    It’s too late for that, and Hummus knows it. They could have returned the hostages, but they need to go away. They’ve already stated their goal is to delete Israel, so Israel should just… what? Let the terrorists live and regrow. Also, Israel is proving that if Hummus doesn’t return the hostages, Israel will take them back anyway - and there will be unfortunate casualties because of where Hummus hides, behind women and children. Tough shit for them, I guess, but with Hummus pissing themselves while cowering behind them, they don’t leave much choice.

    And let’s not forget, if Hummus is hiding among women and children, women and children could choose to live and turn those assholes in, or overpower them, or… is there an anti-Hummus underground in Gaza? There should be.

    dependencyinjection , (edited )

    You deserve an answer. An acceptable number of innocents, in a perfect world, is Zero. But who is in control of that? Hummus.

    So accepting a ceasefire isn’t a viable option. Your bias here is staggering.

    “Whataboutism” is lame.

    As it is when you do it.

    Probably not invade, kill and kidnap innocent people, and run away to hide among women and children. But that’s me. Obviously it’s okay for Hummus /s

    There are conventions that says that a state in persecution can defend itself.

    See above.

    Yes both sides are wrong. Just one has a staggering advantage.

    Neon ,

    The acceptable number of Hamas-Voters is: as many as it takes.

    Terrorism must not be rewarded. The gazans voted Hamas into power, they were celebrating on oct 7th. But now that they are the ones under attack, suddenly they don’t want to play anymore. But they obviously also don’t want to exchange the hostages!

    dependencyinjection ,

    When was the last vote and what is the average age. The majority of people alive never voted for Hamas.

    Neon ,

    So the people currently alive in Gaza don’t support Hamas and don’t want Hamas in power?

    Then that’s all the more Reason to support Israel in overthrowing Hamas, no?

    dependencyinjection ,

    Correct since they never voted for them.

    If you think you can overthrow Hamas you’re insane. Israel have secured the next generation of sign ups by killing people’s entire fucking families.

    SulaymanF ,

    Israel isn’t overthrowing Hamas though. They’re actually empowering them by Netanyahu spending the last 17 years sidelining Palestinian moderates. Abbas offered to work with Netanyahu to actively fight Hamas but was turned down, because Netanyahu refused to work with Palestinians of any stripe.

    Neon ,

    That is 100% correct. But the Israelis hate Nettanyahu because they now realized his policies not insubstantially cause Oct 7th.

    Nettanyahu will be impeached and removed democratically after all this is over. Hamas on the other hand can’t be removed democratically. They have to be removed with force. And right now, only the IDF can do that.

    SulaymanF ,

    Actually no. Netanyahu may be unpopular but he’s been able to avoid elections for a year now.

    And Hamas cannot be stopped militarily; killing all these civilians only makes more people support the group. What WOULD cause Hamas to lose support would be to empower moderates, but Netanyahu has spent the last 17 years undermining them and deligitimizing them, even arming Hamas so Palestinians would fight one another. Smotrich yesterday announcing he’s withholding Palestinian tax money to the PA only makes the PA look even weaker since even moderates are unacceptable to the Israeli government and will suffer under Israeli rule despite cooperating with them.

    shaeblasedockleafs ,

    Genocide

    shaeblasedockleafs ,

    Genocide

    Makhno ,

    PS - downvote away, those who wish Hummus to continue endangering civilians.

    Took a chance to be racist? Soo cool dude

    medicsofanarchy ,
    @medicsofanarchy@lemmy.world avatar

    “Popular culture​​ Hummus is often seen as an unofficial “national dish” of Israel” - Wikipedia. The use of the term does not indicate nationality, but is meant to denigrate “Hamas”. And I would have got away with it, too, if it weren’t for you kids.

    Neon ,

    I am sorry, but calling a fucking terrorist organization names is racist now?

    did you even listen when your parents told you the story about the boy who cried wolf?

    shaeblasedockleafs ,

    Genocide

    RageAgainstTheRich ,

    So next time there is a school shooting in america, and the shooter is hiding in the school, we can just bomb the school? I mean, the shooter could have just let the kids go or stop hiding among them. But no…

    medicsofanarchy ,
    @medicsofanarchy@lemmy.world avatar

    That is an excellent analogy to illustrate why this isn’t a black-and-white situation. Well done, have an upvote!

    Neon ,

    That’s not a great analogy. A great analogy would be if he kidnapped a kid and was hiding in a house full of school-shooters and we would bomb that house to save the kid.

    In which case: Yes, that’s a good Idea.

    ChairmanMeow ,
    @ChairmanMeow@programming.dev avatar

    I’m going to ignore the incredibly horrifying insinuation that all Palestinians are Hamas-terrorists, and fix your analogy: what if the school shooters were a group of parents, whose children (who didn’t do anything wrong) are also in the same school. There’s also a couple teachers who can’t do anything against the school shooters out of fear of being fired.

    How many innocent teachers and children have to be in the school before bombing the school becomes morally wrong?

    Railcar8095 ,

    we can just bomb the school?

    “Seems safer than going in, I guess”: Uvalde Police

    Paddzr ,

    You’re better than that. The two have nothing to do with each other.

    SulaymanF ,

    Netanyahu has said repeatedly since November that even if all hostages are released he will not stop the war. He turned down multiple ceasefire deals where all the hostages would be returned in exchange for aid. Your comment is simply incorrect.

    medicsofanarchy ,
    @medicsofanarchy@lemmy.world avatar

    Quite right! Hamas has pulled this shit far too often. For years they’ve attacked and then run and hide on the playground under women’s skirts. Rinse and repeat. Finally, Hamas has done this once too often. Israel has a big job hunting them down. This time, they get smacked down for good. So what’s not to like?

    Hamas HAS to go, no two ways about it. The people of Gaza however can have a good discussion with Israel, and quite frankly the assistance of the world, when the war is over.

    gmtom ,

    Oh how terrible if only someone could, I don’t know, return all the stolen land back to the Palestinians and end this…

    Also it’s incredibly fucking naive that you think hamas freeing their hostages would end this instead of just giving israel more reason to bomb indiscriminately.

    sidekickplayah ,

    Rick and Morty quote, real ironic

    masquenox ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Fidel_Cashflow ,
    @Fidel_Cashflow@lemmy.ml avatar

    everyone gather around, [email protected] has arrived to give his very brave opinion on this massacre.

    fukhueson ,

    Dropped this in another thread, feel it’s applicable here.

    stratcomcoe.org/…/hamas_human_shields.pdf

    EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

    Hamas, an Islamist militant group and the de facto governing authority of the Gaza Strip, has been using human shields in conflicts with Israel since 2007. According to the Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC), the war crime of using human shields encompasses “utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas, or military forces immune from military operations.” Hamas has launched rockets, positioned military-related infrastructure-hubs and routes, and engaged the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) from, or in proximity to, residential and commercial areas.

    The strategic logic of human shields has two components. It is based on an awareness of Israel’s desire to minimise collateral damage, and of Western public opinion’s sensitivity towards civilian casualties. If the IDF uses lethal force and causes an increase in civilian casualties, Hamas can utilise that as a lawfare tool: it can accuse Israel of committing war crimes, which could result in the imposition of a wide array of sanctions. Alternatively, if the IDF limits its use of military force in Gaza to avoid collateral damage, Hamas will be less susceptible to Israeli attacks, and thereby able to protect its assets while continuing to fight. Moreover, despite the Israeli public’s high level of support for the Israeli political and military leadership during operations, civilian casualties are one of the friction points between Israeli left-wing and right-wing supporters, with the former questioning the outcomes of the operation.

    Gennadios ,

    Considering that hummus was sitting on civilians for literal decades knowing it’ll tie Israel’s hands, it about time the message got sent that those tactics won’t fly. I’m glad at least some of the hostages made it home safely.

    maynarkh ,

    The people killed had families, friends, who will be raging for revenge, bolstering the ranks of organizations like Hamas.

    Hamas won this one, they don’t care how many Palestinians die, they want more people hating Jews. The people who lost this fight are the dead and their relations, and humanity at large.

    MeanEYE ,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    The people Hamas killed had families, friends, who will be raging for revenge. Same excuse goes both ways.

    maynarkh ,

    Not an excuse, what you’re saying is also true.

    The objective of both Likud and Hamas are that the situation does not normalise in the region, they want people to die so they stay relevant politically. Each dead civilian - and to a smaller degree, each dead soldier - is a win for both Hamas and Likud, and a loss for the Israeli and the Palestinian people.

    SpaceCowboy ,
    @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

    The people killed on October 7 had families and friends who are raging for revenge.

    Why do you empathize when Palestinians want revenge but whenever you see an Israeli raging about their people getting killed you don’t have any empathy?

    The real end to this is when people stop being guided by hatred and revenge.

    Glytch ,

    You’re right, maybe the more heavily armed side (hint it’s the one with the tanks) should stop being guided by hatred and revenge first. Since Hamas doesn’t have the capacity to wipe out Israel (despite their desire) there’s less risk to the IDF if they’re (the IDF) the ones to stop killing first than there would be to Hamas, were they to do likewise.

    SpaceCowboy ,
    @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

    If Hamas didn’t take hostages there wouldn’t be tanks rolling around in Gaza right now. They took the hostages to force Israel into a ground campaign knowing it would maximize Palestinian civilian casualties. That is the goal of Hamas. The whole strategy of Hamas is to increase hatred because that’s what brings in the money and the recruits.

    Israel doesn’t have those tanks because of their hatred. They have them to protect their civilian population. It’s just that there’s Israeli civilians in Gaza right now because Hamas took them there.

    Glytch ,

    If Hamas didn’t take hostages there wouldn’t be tanks rolling around in Gaza right now.

    Sure Jan.

    maynarkh ,

    I do in fact have empathy for them as well. Hamas and Likud are both to blame for this, equally.

    SpaceCowboy ,
    @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

    I’m no fan of Likud, but come on. Hamas went into villages and murdered nearly every man woman and child they could find. The rest they took to their underground lairs. All to start ground campaign in a populated area so there would inevitably be civilian casualties which they can monetize.

    Netanyahu is an asshole and an incompetent (and corrupt) asshole at that. But you gotta keep it in perspective the absolute monstrosity of Hamas. I hope Netanyahu is voted out (and he likely will be) and his political career is completely dead. But Hamas isn’t going to voted out because they’re fascists that maintain power through violent intimidation. There is hope for Israel to change for the better through democracy. There isn’t all that much hope for Palestine because Hamas prevents Palestinian democracy from happening.

    maynarkh ,

    And Netanyahu let Hamas do this by intentionally weakening their border security before Oct 7, despite there being an anniversary of the last intifada, and despite being told by multiple countries that an attack is in the works. He also had a hand in funding Hamas against the PA. And he is also holding on to power undemocratically, as he is postponing an election he would most likely lose if not for the current “war”.

    They have a symbiotic relationship, neither could really exist without the other. Just to be clear, what Hamas does does not justify what Likud does, and what Likud does does not justify what Hamas does.

    Also, I don’t think I have the information to really cast either of them “the worse one”. Both organizations have genocidal maniacs leading them, and I agree with the ICC prosecutor who wants to cite the leadership of both for genocide. Saying one is worse would be relativizing the deaths of either the Israeli people murdered by Hamas, or the Palestinian civilians murdered by the IDF.

    SpaceCowboy ,
    @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

    Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

    Also October 7 is going to result in the end of Netanyahu’s political career. You can’t be a strongman while also being unable to protect your people. So your conspiracy theory implies that Netanyahu wanted to end his own career. Like most conspiracy theories, it fails at explaining a reasonable motivation for it.

    gmtom ,

    Go back to reddit, loser

    AllNewTypeFace ,
    @AllNewTypeFace@leminal.space avatar

    The high death toll is intended as a warning of what will happen in The Hague if Netanyahu is ever indicted.

    Railcar8095 ,

    You either forgot an /s or to take your pills.

    NateNate60 ,

    It’s really hard to take either of them seriously because both have been known to lie through their teeth and blatantly violated the rules of war.

    It’s almost certain that the truth of what happened will never be known for certain, because basically none of the parties to this conflict have any credibility whatsoever.

    SulaymanF ,

    Well we could have independent journalists but Israel won’t allow any in and shoots them often.

    NateNate60 , (edited )

    Correct, and that’s very much part of the problem. We have very unreliable information about the state of the war. They stop journalists to prevent information from getting out, and they succeeded.

    kaffiene ,

    Historically the figures released by the Palestinian health system have been acknowledged as pretty accurate. From the Telegraph : “In previous rounds of fighting in the Strip, the total number of deaths reported by the Gazan authorities have been found to be broadly accurate, not differing significantly from estimates produced by the UN or IDF. There have, however, always been disputes over the civilian/combatant split.”

    NateNate60 ,

    I don’t doubt the accuracy of those figures but when it comes to things like Israel accusing Hamas of using human shields or setting up bases inside schools and Hamas saying “nuh uh”, without photo or video proof it’s hard to say either way.

    kaffiene ,

    I see your point. I tend to believe the Palestinian figures simply because they have a history of being reasonably accurate with casualty numbers and the IDF has a history of lying or at least playing down casualties

    NateNate60 ,

    I don’t believe it is correct to call them “Palestinian” figures. There is no unified government in Palestine. There is a collection of multiple organisations exercising various amounts of authority over the Palestinian territories. The figures from the Gaza Health Ministry regarding civilian casualties are probably close to reality. But that doesn’t mean anything else is accurate. I give credibility to the Gaza Health Ministry on the topic of civilian death counts and other related humanitarian figures only.

    kaffiene ,

    Whichever noun you use to describe them is fine by me.

    Madison420 ,

    Bro you know why Israel is certain they’re doing it right? Because they took out from proto isrealis who stashed weapons and bases in or under holy sites, hospitals and schools.

    Look into Operation Shark, the largest weapons bust being inside the great synagogue.

    en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Shark

    Land_Strider ,

    With one, you have to be cautious against infrequent exaggeration. With the other, you have to work your way through their constant denial. Both are not on point in scale of truth, and both can be used to completely subvert it for some intended purposes, but I think one is closer to the truth more frequently and by a lot than the other.

    You can definitely pick the exaggerating side to start with, then work your way to the truth as much as you can from there and you’d be closer to it than starting with the other one, having a lower rate of going astray.

    DemBoSain ,
    @DemBoSain@midwest.social avatar

    He looks surprisingly well-fed.

    Guydht ,

    Yeah, usually you wanna feed your human bargain, so you know, they’ll get better deals out of them.

    Don’t excuse terrorists for feeding their victims.

    DemBoSain ,
    @DemBoSain@midwest.social avatar

    The point was that Gazans are starving. Somebody has enough food. Who in Gaza currently has all the food?

    Guydht ,

    Hamas…

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