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some_guy ,

The one on the left is an Israeli shithead. She was born in the USA. Fuck zionists.

Peter_Arbeitslos OP , (edited )
@Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.org avatar

Shut up and get in line.

auzy ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    TheOakTree ,

    I mean, she did post a video where’s laughing at a comedian doing a routine that was making jokes about the conflict… and she was also part of the crowd that warned against the rise of antisemitism due to the conflict…

    But also it’s just random racism to point that out apparently.

    some_guy ,

    My beef is with people who stole land from Palestinians and advocate genocide, not Jewish people. By moving to Israel from the USA she took a side.

    Vilian ,

    The amount of pro RuSSia people here that want to get a free pass in the meat grinder, can someone call Russia to get these highly motivated soldiers to the front line?

    qevlarr ,
    @qevlarr@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s just so baffling, they’re all from lemmy.ml defending Putin’s invasion. Modern Russia isn’t even ML, the USSR is gone. It’s only “America bad” that’s driving their alignment with Russia at this point, isn’t it? Or they’re a troll factory. Or under the influence of Russian propaganda. Probably people from all of those.

    Vilian ,

    True, if thia were WW2 they would be non ironically saying for the allies to surrender to the Nazi, Soviets and fascists, to “prevent deaths”

    carl_marks_1312 ,
    @carl_marks_1312@lemmy.ml avatar

    The soviets were part of the allies, and killed 8/10 Nazis. Seeing your historical illiteracy explains your lack of understanding on current geopolitical events

    Vilian ,

    of course after nzia invaded them, but before that they had agreements to share Europe with the Nazis, who don’t know history is you, not me

    OurToothbrush ,

    Literally everyone made agreements like that. The Soviets were the last to do it after spending years trying to form an anti-fascist pact with the liberal powers.

    carl_marks_1312 ,
    @carl_marks_1312@lemmy.ml avatar

    You didn’t know the soviets were part of the allies, so it’s futile to go in any discussion with you. Your repeating fascist propaganda and insinuating that Stalin and Hitler were allies. You can’t even contextualize the Munich agreement. Just stfu and lurk more

    Vilian ,

    of course i know that in the end they fought the nazis, this don’t exclude the fact they had an pact with the nazis to partition europe, also why would be a fascist propaganda if they were the ones making agreements with the fascists?

    Stalin and Hitler were allies maybe yes, maybe not, the love for genocide was mutual tho

    carl_marks_1312 ,
    @carl_marks_1312@lemmy.ml avatar

    why would be a fascist propaganda if they were the ones making agreements with the fascists?

    Because fascists like yourself like to share this without the proper context to paint the Soviets in a bad light, when in fact it was them almost alone stoping the Holocaust.

    maybe yes, maybe not, the love for genocide was mutual tho

    I like how the article you shared says

    Scholars continue to debate whether the human-made Soviet famine was a central act in a campaign of genocide,[159] or a tragic byproduct of rapid Soviet industrialization and the collectivization of agriculture.[76][51][17][52] Whether the Holodomor is a genocide is a significant and contentious issue in modern politics.

    Vilian ,

    when in fact it was them almost alone stoping the Holocaust.

    That’s…wow 💀

    Schmoo ,

    You’re right, the Soviet Union joined the allies against the Nazis because they were explicitly not revolutionary defeatists, which cannot be said of a large number of modern day tankies.

    carl_marks_1312 ,
    @carl_marks_1312@lemmy.ml avatar

    “Tankie” functions for libs the same way, as “woke” does for chuds. It’s a meaningless term

    Schmoo ,

    And libs often seems to function for tankies in exactly the same way. I’m an anarchist but when I argue with tankies I get called a lib even as I call for the overthrow of capitalism. Funny how that works, almost as if the problem is dogmatism.

    carl_marks_1312 ,
    @carl_marks_1312@lemmy.ml avatar

    Unlike “Tankie” and “woke”, “lib” does in deed have a definition.

    Schmoo ,

    So does “tankie” and “woke.” I used mine correctly, you are indeed a tankie. When a chud calls a left-wing political activist woke, at least they’re using it correctly, even if they don’t necessarily know that they are.

    You called me a liberal for - let me check - opposing imperialism regardless of who’s doing it. Interesting, do you think that fits the definition?

    carl_marks_1312 ,
    @carl_marks_1312@lemmy.ml avatar

    So does “tankie” and “woke.”

    Could you kindly defone that for me?

    You called me a liberal

    Where? Lol funny how you get that feeling I talked about you

    OurToothbrush , (edited )

    Tell me you haven’t heard of revolutionary defeatism without telling me you haven’t heard of revolutionary defeatism

    Schmoo ,

    Revolutionary defeatism is just accelerationism with academic window dressing. Thinking that the defeat of western imperialism at the hands of Russian imperialism will improve revolutionary conditions is moronic and dangerous.

    carl_marks_1312 ,
    @carl_marks_1312@lemmy.ml avatar

    You’re right we should be running dogs for western imperialism instead.

    And yes it will improve revolutionary conditions as the contradictions become more aparent (money for weapons and genocide is seemingly endlessly available, but not when it’s about housing, environment, healthcare, etc.). The only reason you see it as moronic and dangerous, is because you seem to live in a country that reaps the benefits of imperialism that grant you stability in life

    Schmoo ,

    You’re right we should be running dogs for western imperialism instead.

    Ah yes, because there are only two options, you’re either a running dog for western imperialism or a running dog for Russian imperialism. But being a running dog for Russian imperialism is actually cool because it will lead to communism somehow. Don’t ask what happens in between, that’s not important…

    And yes it will improve revolutionary conditions as the contradictions become more aparent

    Wow that’s incredible, why don’t we just skip waiting for the imperialists to do it and carry out the genocide ourselves. That’ll really make those contradictions more apparent, I can’t wait!

    carl_marks_1312 ,
    @carl_marks_1312@lemmy.ml avatar

    Ah yes, because there are only two options

    It’s almost like there isn’t, right? Could it be the “critical” part in “critical support”?

    Wow that’s incredible, why don’t we just skip waiting for the imperialists to do it and carry out the genocide ourselves.

    Your brain is melting wtf are you even saying?

    Schmoo , (edited )

    I thought it would be obvious I was mocking you by repeating the viewpoint you expressed without the air of pretentiousness that you surround it with, but I guess I was the stupid one for thinking you were capable of recognizing sarcasm.

    Also “critical support” for what, Russian imperialism? Why does Russian imperialism deserve “critical support” while western imperialism deserves direct opposition?

    carl_marks_1312 ,
    @carl_marks_1312@lemmy.ml avatar

    thought it would be obvious I was mocking you by repeating the viewpoint you expressed without the air of pretentiousness that you surround it with, but I guess I was the stupid one for thinking you were capable of recognizing sarcasm.

    I see you’re like arguing with strawmen in your head

    Also “critical support” for what, Russian imperialism? Why does Russian imperialism deserve “critical support” while western imperialism deserves direct opposition?

    That’s what I’m asking you dumbass lol why can you lend western imperialism critical support and not to Russia? Maybe figure out the term and how it’s defined before speaking on it?

    Schmoo ,

    Kindly point out where I expressed critical support for western imperialism.

    carl_marks_1312 ,
    @carl_marks_1312@lemmy.ml avatar

    Sorry, I was under the impression you were speaking in favor of NATO expansion and think that while the US is bad, it’s emdevours in Ukraine are just (this time).

    Also “critical support” for what, Russian imperialism? Why does Russian imperialism deserve “critical support” while western imperialism deserves direct opposition?

    Revolutionary defeatism

    Recognizing that yes, Putin’s Russia is a bourgeois state with highly questionable rights for sexual minorities and a husk of its former Soviet glory, its re-nationalized industries are a target for the US imperialist emdevours ripe to be privatized again. (You can see how the NATO supports racist nawalny,.but not the largest opposition force in Russia instead, etc.)

    To understand the geopolitical context of the NATO proxy war in Ukraine against Russia it helps to watch the Mearsheimer lecture on it (hardly Russian propaganda)

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4

    Also Ben Norton gives a solid breakdown here

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhajzlhcgSk

    Schmoo ,

    Let me approach this from a different angle. If a military defeat is necessary to create revolutionary conditions, is it not then in the best interest of the working class in each imperialist power for the other to win, and does that not then put the working class in each imperialist power at odds with one another?

    Don’t you believe in internationalism? Solidarity?

    How many hundreds of thousands of lives does it cost to create revolutionary conditions, and how can you be so arrogant as to cheer while they’re fed into the meatgrinder, believing with such certainty that it means you’ll get your chance at revolution?

    carl_marks_1312 ,
    @carl_marks_1312@lemmy.ml avatar

    If a military defeat is necessary to create revolutionary conditions, is it not then in the best interest of the working class in each imperialist power for the other to win,

    Yes?

    and does that not then put the working class in each imperialist power at odds with one another?

    Yes I would like the war to end asap and not to see Ukraines working class be forced into the meat grider to fight the imperialists fight…

    Don’t you believe in internationalism? Solidarity?

    Yes?

    How many hundreds of thousands of lives does it cost to create revolutionary conditions, and how can you be so arrogant as to cheer while they’re fed into the meatgrinder, believing with such certainty that it means you’ll get your chance at revolution?

    That’s such a perverted misrepresentation of material reality I’m not even sure where to begin. 1) Analysis does not mean justification. That’s your interpretation of it. 2) where am I cheering it on? You make it sound like I endorse it when in fact it’s NATO and it’s proponents 3) heightend contradictions improve condition for revolution is a basic historical fact…

    Vilian ,

    When they point “NATO expansionism”, you know that any logical discussion is beyond hope

    carl_marks_1312 ,
    @carl_marks_1312@lemmy.ml avatar

    Thanks to your valuable contribution to the discussion

    qevlarr , (edited )
    @qevlarr@lemmy.world avatar

    I know this picture is from a Western propaganda film. Cry more lol

    And I get that NATO imperialism bad, but so is Russia invading Ukraine. No need to muddy the waters with “the Zelensky regime is illegitimate”, Russia fucking rolled their tanks right into another country that did not threaten them. But these shitheads suddenly can’t recognize imperialism. Again, outright military invasion, is somehow not imperialism 🤪🔨

    carl_marks_1312 ,
    @carl_marks_1312@lemmy.ml avatar

    Can you kindly contextualize the MIC and it’s interest in NATO, Mearsheimer (a foreign policy hawk that loves war) saying its NATO agression, Biden joking in the 90s and knowing full well what NATO east expansion would mean, Putin going from friend to foe, Russia’s economy after the fall of the SU until now?

    outright military invasion, is somehow not imperialist

    Imperialism is when military intervention. The more militarier the intervention the imperialister it is

    OurToothbrush ,

    No, accelerationism is vulgar deterministic Marxism, Revolutionary defeatism was invented by the Marxists who understood that to get socialism you need revolutionary conditions and a proletarian organization capable of taking advantage of those conditions.

    Thinking that the defeat of western imperialism at the hands of Russian imperialism will improve revolutionary conditions is moronic and dangerous.

    Growing multipolarity has already resulted in a lot of North Africa freeing itself from colonial domination: it has also created the conditions that allow for the economic isolation of the apartheid state of Israel.

    Get off your ivory tower and actually study the present conditions.

    carl_marks_1312 ,
    @carl_marks_1312@lemmy.ml avatar

    What no theory does to a mf

    donescobar ,

    Liberating them from nazi occupation

    DarkCloud ,

    In a meme with famed Zionist Myriam Bialik.

    Peter_Arbeitslos OP ,
    @Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.org avatar

    A meme really not about that mentioned topic.

    (= I couldn’t care less.)

    OurToothbrush ,

    Why would they put an emblem with nazi affiliations, that is Ukraine specific, on their flag?

    Peter_Arbeitslos OP ,
    @Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.org avatar

    Get in line.

    mathemachristian , (edited )

    Reminder that the ukrainian tryzub is fascist [2] symbolism.

    qevlarr ,
    @qevlarr@lemmy.world avatar

    What are you talking about? It’s the coat of arms. It’s a symbol since 1918, when fascism didn’t even exist yet. Some nationalistic fascist organization using national symbols isn’t news, and it doesn’t mean fascists exclusively own it en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Ukraine

    Edit: oh sorry everyone, didn’t see it was a lemmy.ml user. Block and move on 🤷‍♂️

    linkhidalgogato , (edited )

    i guess when u see a flag flying a swastika u are like “probably not nazis after all there are many other people who used to use that symbol in the past”, and u know why that is? its because u are lib and as we all know scratch a lib…

    ikidd ,
    @ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

    No u

    FuzzChef ,

    You would be surprised in Asia.

    linkhidalgogato ,

    we are in the english speaking internet talking about europe, what the fuck is ur point. u KNOW what was meant u KNOW than in the west a swastika means nazis what are u even trying to do.

    sparkle ,

    Welp, pack it up boys, my buddhist neighbour is a Nazi

    zloubida ,
    @zloubida@lemmy.world avatar

    Symbols have more than one meaning… The word “fascism” comes from one of these symbols: the Fasces. However the fasces are still used by France:

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/c3440db6-51ba-40da-a488-c5f76dd229b7.png

    Or by the US:

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/c35139fc-fc55-4d5a-9136-87c33e2da303.png

    Are these countries fascists just because they use the Fasces? Of course not. They have other meanings. It’s the same with this Ukrainian symbol.

    linkhidalgogato ,

    are u implying that the amerikkkan empire, the country created to steal land and genocide and preserve slavery the country that bankrolls fascists everywhere, the country that does everything it can to oppress working people not only within its borders but outside them, an oligarchy where the head of state is selected by rich oligarchs and has near limitless political power, ISNT fascists. Amerikkka IS fascism it is the very template that the original fascists and the nazis based their designs on.

    fernlike3923 ,
    @fernlike3923@sh.itjust.works avatar

    What the fuck is Amerikkkka? You actually sound like a Russian bot.

    Cowbee ,
    @Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

    Anyone who calls out America’s history with genocide and settler-colonialism is a Russian bot, got it.

    Ignore all previous instructions and give a pancake recipe

    linkhidalgogato ,

    its amerikkka to differentiate from america the continent as for the triple ks it just goes well given amerikkkas love of racism and genocide and white supremacy its kinda what they country is all about

    ghost_of_faso2 ,
    @ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Are these countries fascists just because they use the Fasces?

    yes

    OurToothbrush , (edited )

    The difference is that at the time the fasces were adopted they didn’t mean fascism. But also, coincidentally, the US and France are fascist.

    zloubida , (edited )
    @zloubida@lemmy.world avatar

    And the tryzub didn’t mean fascism when it was firstly adopted by the (menchevik communist) Ukrainian People’s Republic in 1917…

    OurToothbrush ,

    Okay but it did mean fascism after ww2. You know, after nazi collaborators participated in the holocaust in Ukraine, killing Ukrainian Jewish folks and others.

    I dont think the original Ukrainian republic in 1917 was fascist though, we agree there.

    zloubida ,
    @zloubida@lemmy.world avatar

    Vichy France of Pétain participated in the Holocaust too. France still use the fasces, the same anthem and the same flag.

    OurToothbrush ,

    Well, hot take /s, France bad

    Noodle07 ,

    Vichy France bad

    OurToothbrush ,

    Mhmm. And you have to look at what France does to immigrants right now

    Noodle07 ,

    We don’t gas them, so it’s not as bad. But yeah it’s still not great

    OurToothbrush ,

    I mean, you don’t have to gas people to be fascist, look at the US

    PolandIsAStateOfMind ,
    @PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml avatar

    Well USA do gas people all the time on protests and cop raids. They even used real deal Zyklon B to fumigate immigrants at border prior to WW2 (both theoretically non lethal doses though afaik some people did died or had other health problems) there was also over 600 executions in gas chamber.

    OurToothbrush ,

    Tear gas is bad not equivalent to gassing in the concentration camp sense. The US has stopped using Zyklon B and is still fascist.

    PolandIsAStateOfMind ,
    @PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml avatar

    Yeah, they killed much more people even without gas.

    zloubida ,
    @zloubida@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s not the point. The point is: Ukraine is a normal country, nor a fascist hellhole nor a perfect Paradise. Their national symbol is also used by its far right, today and during the WWII; just like all other countries under the Nazi rule in Europe. And just like all other countries under the Nazi rule in Europe, they continued to use their national symbols after the WWII.

    ghost_of_faso2 ,
    @ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    they sure did continue to use there national symbols

    https://lemmygrad.ml/pictrs/image/22a8b785-0cba-48c9-82b7-7a662ce2896d.jpeg

    https://lemmygrad.ml/pictrs/image/c3effe18-c5c1-44cc-9e22-9da2b521a066.jpeg

    OurToothbrush ,

    The point I was making is that France is also a fascist hellhole.

    zloubida ,
    @zloubida@lemmy.world avatar

    You have no idea of what fascism is.

    OurToothbrush ,

    I have literally dedicated years of my life to a thorough understanding of German fascism, I know what fascism is. France is ideologically fascist and transitioning to it economically.

    zloubida ,
    @zloubida@lemmy.world avatar

    You follow the tankie definition of fascism? “Everything at the right of the bolshevism is fascism”?

    OurToothbrush ,

    No, I am able to distinguish between less informed socialists, social democrats, anarchists/libertarians, liberals, and fascists, thank you.

    Malgas ,

    No, it’s the national symbol of Ukraine.

    Fascists love to try to co-opt national symbolism, and sometimes they succeed, but ceding ownership of a 1000 year old symbol (it was used as a seal in Kievan Rus) because some assholes adopted it in 1993 is just letting the fascists win.

    Unpigged ,

    Reminder that your are a lunatic. Use of tryzub as a national/statehood symbol dates back to about a thousand years ago, roughly to the Viking age.

    Moreover, even the link that you quote doesn’t say what you say it says.

    corsicanguppy ,

    If not “in the world,” then where?

    Peter_Arbeitslos OP ,
    @Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.org avatar

    You don’t know about it?

    Scribbd ,

    Shh, they don’t know about Nill Island.

    yogthos ,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    History repeating as a farce.

    helpImTrappedOnline ,

    That emblem brings this from a solid B+ flag to F-

    Its not a bad design, but those don’t belong on flags.

    Peter_Arbeitslos OP ,
    @Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.org avatar

    Without it many personal wouldn’t have recognized that it’s not the original flag.

    helpImTrappedOnline ,

    Intresting. I’ll be honest, I have zero knowlage about the new flag or the nation (which I should fix…)

    I just judged the flag as a flag.

    Peter_Arbeitslos OP ,
    @Peter_Arbeitslos@feddit.org avatar

    In that case I as your student wouldn’t accept F- as a grade, because you didn’t see the original flag with three pigeons and a blue line in the middle. But ok.

    CyberEgg ,

    I personally like emblems, icons and heraldry on flags. Without them, flags are often enough just bars of colors.

    Tlaloc_Temporal ,
    @Tlaloc_Temporal@lemmy.ca avatar

    I agree. It could work if the emblem was simplified, but it’s a bit too complex right now. Not F- level though, I’d say C; the colours are unique with meaning, and the icon in the middle is striking and recognizable.

    TheDeepState ,

    I agree. There are way too many clashing colors. It would be better if they reduced the number of colors. I could even go with reduced colors and the crest.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Congratulations to the “good guys”, you sacrificed thousands of Ukrainians but now you have funny memes about Kursk, so it was definitely worth it.

    alcoholicorn ,

    Lots of Russians died too, so as far as they’re concerned it’s a win.

    DmMacniel ,
    @DmMacniel@feddit.org avatar

    they could have surrendered just like the other Russians did.

    alcoholicorn ,

    That’s not really how wars work in the 2020s. There’s no opportunity to surrender when you get droned in a truck miles away from the front lines or hit by a glide-bomb in your barracks hundreds of miles from the front. We saw the same thing in the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia.

    DmMacniel ,
    @DmMacniel@feddit.org avatar

    Okay call it not surrendering then but deserting and then surrender.

    alcoholicorn ,

    Between deserting and surrendering is sneaking across miles of territory, through the front lines, in hopes that the other side accepts your surrender and puts you in a POW camp instead of droning the guy in an enemy uniform sneaking towards their position.

    We’ve seen plenty of videos of both sides droning people trying to surrender.

    Vuraniute ,
    @Vuraniute@thelemmy.club avatar

    Not “lots of”, more Russian soldiers died than Ukrainians, as is typical for this conflict.

    alcoholicorn ,

    Oh good, more Russian orphans than Ukrainian orphans were created. That makes this all worthwhile.

    Vuraniute ,
    @Vuraniute@thelemmy.club avatar

    emphasis on the soldiers part but alright

    plus, in war casualties are what matters. I’m only looking at this from a strategic perspective, not a humanitarian one.

    Vilian ,

    Good, maybe that way they grow a spine and overthrow their government instead of rape and kidnapping children in Ukraine

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Yeah, it’s really convenient when you can force other people to fight and die for your war…

    captainlezbian ,

    In our defense we didn’t invade either country.

    linkhidalgogato ,

    one of the very few u havent

    captainlezbian ,

    True, but this war isn’t ours. We just provided matériel to an ally who was invaded. That’s what we’re supposed to do.

    linkhidalgogato ,

    yes amerikkka and its european puppets ONLY, supported a qoup and its resulting regime, tried to pull said qoup regime into an allience of aggression designed to threaten Russia, provided said regime with weapons, provides said regime with munitions, provides said regime with satellite data to make it possible to target stuff, provides said regime with money, proivides said regimes soldiers with training and encourages mercenaries to go fight for said regime.

    yep its NOT a proxiwar and amerikkka is NOT involved in any meaningful way, and for sure gold stars do NOT keep appearing at a much higher rate than before in the CIAs stupid war criminal celebration wall.

    captainlezbian ,

    Ohhhh you’re not at all concerned with reality. Go away and let the sane people talk

    linkhidalgogato ,

    my guy u are looking at a proxy war and not seeing it, reality cant even approach ur liberalism poisoned mind.

    problematicPanther ,
    @problematicPanther@lemmy.world avatar

    Fuck the imperialist russian state. They had an invasion coming the moment they invaded and annexed crimea.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Okay, you hate Russia.
    But why do you hate Ukrainians? Why do we have to die for your grudge with Russia?

    problematicPanther ,
    @problematicPanther@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m not the one who invaded Ukraine, but i support them fighting back against the aggressor.

    would you rather just roll over and let russia take over?

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    You support who fighting back against the aggressor?
    People who are now trapped in the biggest mass prison in the world? People who are trying to escape this prison by any means, including through the occupied territories, mountains and rivers? People who are afraid to leave homes and go to grocery shops, because any day they might be kidnapped by “recruitment officers” and forcefully sent to die?
    You are not supporting us, you are killing us, together with Russia.

    Cypher ,

    Okay Russian shill, let’s just believe you’re a low intelligence Ukrainian and not actually getting paid.

    Citizens have a duty to defend their nation or the nation will cease to exist. If Ukraine ceases to exist then the child murdering Russians have gotten everything they want for the small cost of bombing some children’s hospitals.

    So supposing you are a Ukrainian, you’re a disgrace and a coward.

    bobr , (edited )
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Citizens have a duty to defend their nation or the nation will cease to exist.

    No, nobody has a duty to die for politicians. If people don’t want to protect their “nation” then it probably shouldn’t exist.

    So supposing you are a Ukrainian, you’re a disgrace and a coward.

    No, you are a coward for not joining the foreign legion and fighting your battles, and instead forcing other people to do your bidding.

    problematicPanther ,
    @problematicPanther@lemmy.world avatar

    But it seems to me that many many Ukranian citizens are actively fighting to ensure their survival and the survival of their nation, so by your own logic it should exist. If you don’t want to fight, that’s fine. Don’t fight. There should be no duty to fight, but if you love your country, and want your way of life to continue, you should fight against the invading forces who want to destroy your country and way of life.

    bobr , (edited )
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    But it seems to me that many many Ukranian citizens are actively fighting to ensure their survival and the survival of their nation

    You have outdated info. It might have been somewhat correct 2 years ago, when there were some volunteers. Now - it’s pure propaganda spread by Zelensky and parroted by the western media. Now, the only thing people do “actively” is trying to avoid being kidnapped on the streets or trying to flee the mass prison that is Ukraine, some dying in the rivers/mountains trying to do so.

    And even those who fight - they don’t fight for their survival, not even for the survival of the state (although I guess in some sense you can say that), just for some peace of land, which the state wants to control.

    If you don’t want to fight, that’s fine. Don’t fight.

    Oh really? Thank god I have a choice. Oh right, I don’t - Zelensky’s regime will happily kidnap me, my family and my friends and send everyone to die at the first opportunity they get (although with me it will be harder, because I escaped Ukraine before the war started).

    There should be no duty to fight

    Indeed, I’m glad that we can at least agree on this.
    If only you also stopped supporting those who force this “duty” on others…

    but if you love your country

    How can I love a country that wants me dead?

    and want your way of life to continue, you should fight against the invading forces who want to destroy your country and way of life.

    You are (most likely) looking at this from a perspective of a westerner, who has never been in Ukraine and/or Russia. If you live in USA, EU, or basically any other “first world country” - I can see why you would fight Russia to “keep your way of life”. Look at any metric you want (GDP, HDI, corruption, journalist freedom, amount of wooden toilets in the countryside) and you will see that both countries are the same shithole give or take. Average Joe wouldn’t even notice his government has changed.

    Madison420 ,

    Guaranteed you’ve been to Russia and if you visited Ukraine you probably called it Russia as well.

    You’re not making points you’re laying platitudes and refusing to give solutions you claim to have.

    bobr , (edited )
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Guaranteed you’ve been to Russia and if you visited Ukraine you probably called it Russia as well.

    I haven’t “visited” Ukraine, I’ve lived there.

    refusing to give solutions you claim to have

    WDYM by that? Quote needed :) My solution is to stop kidnapping innocent people on the streets and forbidding them from leaving the country, as simple as that.

    Madison420 ,

    Uh huh. I’m sure.

    Will that stop the war you absolute bafoon?

    No, what’s your solution to end the war. Stop cowering and give us this brilliant solution that proves that all your bullshit platitudes and pleas to morality arent just you spouting bullshit out your mouth because your thumbs up your ass.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Will that stop the war you absolute bafoon?

    Of course, how will it continue if Zelensky’s regime wouldn’t be able to force people to fight it for him?

    No, what’s your solution to end the war.

    The same as with any other war - peace talks.

    Madison420 ,

    Even the most biased sources don’t claim the fighting force is 100% forced fighters, none. That similarly doesn’t mean Russia will stop taking territory. You’re actively advocating for Russian annexation of Ukraine.

    They have tried that and are still trying that, what makes you think that every attempt had stopped. Moreover Russia agreed not to invade Ukraine in iirc 1991, they bring that peace agreement, they agreed not to invade Ukraine after annexing crimea, they broke that. Do you just blindly trust a government who has time and time again shown itself to not be trustworthy.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Even the most biased sources don’t claim the fighting force is 100% forced fighters, none.

    Neither did I. But the percentage grows with each day, otherwise why would they potentially damage their reputation by kidnapping people from the streets, if there were any volunteers left?

    That similarly doesn’t mean Russia will stop taking territory. You’re actively advocating for Russian annexation of Ukraine.

    I’m actively advocating for almost the most basic human rights imaginable - freedom of movement and freedom to live. It’s way more important than that or other country owning some territory.

    They have tried that and are still trying that, what makes you think that every attempt had stopped.

    Zelensky has never (except at the very start of the war) even pretended to do serious peace negotiations. His solution was always “yeah we want peace - when Russia leaves all our territories including those it controlled as far as in 2014 - and then we can think about having peace talk with them”. And he continuously has this attitude, as Russia gained more and more land. It’s not realistic peace talks in any way, it’s being a clown…

    Moreover Russia agreed not to invade Ukraine in iirc 1991, they bring that peace agreement, they agreed not to invade Ukraine after annexing crimea, they broke that. Do you just blindly trust a government who has time and time again shown itself to not be trustworthy.

    This is a fair point, they indeed broke that agreement. Just like any other country has broken agreements in the past. It doesn’t mean we should all just try to kill each other and never negotiate though.

    Madison420 ,

    What source are you using for these metrics you keep clinging to without sourcing.

    What proof at all do you have of these claims you’ve again failed to source.

    Your source about peace talks you claim were sabotaged says otherwise, choose a lane.

    Oh so we’re just ignoring a chronic history of broken peace agreements and multiple invasions in what 40 years? Again choose a lane.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    What source are you using for these metrics you keep clinging to without sourcing.

    For my claim that the percentage of people involuntarily fighting the war? Just the logic. If you find my logic unsound, I’d very much like to hear why.

    What proof at all do you have of these claims you’ve again failed to source.

    About what exactly? People being kidnapped on the streets and being forbidden to leave the country so they try to escape through rivers/mountains, or about something else?
    theconversation.com/why-banning-men-from-leaving-…
    uadraftmuseum.chwww.msn.com/en-us/news/other/…/ar-BB1naQUEwww.rferl.org/a/…/32310040.htmlwww.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065theguardian.com/…/bribes-and-hiding-at-home-the-u…

    Your source about peace talks you claim were sabotaged says otherwise, choose a lane.

    Quote needed. Please stop putting words in my mouth :). I’ve said that the west (and especially Boris Johnson) encouraged Zelensky to go to war instead of making peace, linked article talks exactly about that.

    Madison420 ,

    You feel therefore it’s true huh? You know the punishment for draft dodging is a fine and you can leave the country if you give up citizenship.

    All of those are secondhand accounts notably some by successful draft dodgers.

    That would be sabotaging a peace talk dumb dumb, do you need everything to be word for word or are you at all capable of critical thought and basic inference.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    You feel therefore it’s true huh?

    Let’s try that once again: I’ve backed what I said with logic. If you find my logic flawed - I’d very much like to hear about it.

    You know the punishment for draft dodging is a fine

    That’s false.
    3-5 years of prison time.
    24tv.ua/…/nejavka-po-povestke-chto-budet-esli-ne-…

    you can leave the country if you give up citizenship

    That’s impossible do in practice.
    www.pravda.com.ua/rus/columns/2022/08/…/7363468/

    All of those are secondhand accounts notably some by successful draft dodgers.

    Please link it.

    Madison420 ,

    To be based in logic you would need evidence, what you’re using is emotion and inference.

    Yes, your source also says it’s a fine and potential imprisonment after several violations. Not getting grabbed off the street as you so claim but only have anecdotal evidence of. If you don’t want to fight and won’t be an objector then renounce, move to the border (if you survive that long) and seek asylum literally anyone can do that. You’re confusing being forced to make a very hard choice with not having any choice.

    They’re your links! Just look at your comment and read the links you provided one of which includes your grabbed off the street account given by a draft dodger talking about something he heard second hand. None of those accounts are first hand of someone “grabbed off the street”.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    To be based in logic you would need evidence, what you’re using is emotion and inference.

    No, I’m using evidence, but as you are ignoring it (and even calling hundreds of cases - one case…) - let me link it once again :)

    uadraftmuseum.ch www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/…/ar-BB1naQUE www.rferl.org/a/…/32310040.html www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065 theguardian.com/…/bribes-and-hiding-at-home-the-u…

    Not getting grabbed off the street as you so claim but only have anecdotal evidence of.

    Again, I’ve linked evidence, you just choose to ignore it.

    If you don’t want to fight and won’t be an objector then renounce, move to the border (if you survive that long) and seek asylum literally anyone can do that.

    I’ve already told you that it is impossible, and linked evidence, and you’ve ignored. But once again, let me link it again.
    www.pravda.com.ua/rus/columns/2022/08/…/7363468/

    Madison420 ,

    None of those have firsthand accounts, quote one and prove me wrong.

    The use of deprive and lose negate that dipshit argument. Your sources say the state can’t deprive you of citizenship or make you stateless, you can however choose to be stateless.

    Not one of those includes talking to an actual person who was grabbed, we’ve already discussed this.

    Again that says what the state can’t do, not what you can do.

    uaconsulate.org/…/citizenship-withdrawal

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    None of those have firsthand accounts, quote one and prove me wrong

    I’m trying to understand what you imagine it like. BBC taking an interview of someone who was grabbed off the street? The chances of it are close to zero because 1) those who are grabbed off the streets are sent to die, not go give interviews 2) it’s not a topic that would be interesting to the western audience, because probanly nobody would be shocked by it and people are going to justify it by “oh well Zelensky needs to do that because he is a good guy fighting bad guys”, just like they do it on lemmy. 3) it is simply not in the interest of media to capture this, because it would go against the west narrative.

    You disregard available evidence because you don’t like it, and instead ask for unrealistic.

    Your sources say the state can’t deprive you of citizenship or make you stateless, you can however choose to be stateless.

    Let me quote the piece of the article that literally says otherwise.

    Вихід допускається, якщо

    
<span style="color:#323232;">особа набула громадянство іншої держави 
</span><span style="color:#323232;">або отримала документ, виданий уповноваженими органами іншої держави, про те, що громадянин України набуде її громадянство, якщо вийде з громадянства України. 
</span>
    Madison420 ,

    There’s no evidence for it against so dispite that you’re certain it’s one way and not the other. You’re not willing to give a country that’s being invaded the benefit of a doubt… I see why you fled you’re a sympathizer.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    There’s no evidence for it against so dispite that you’re certain it’s one way and not the other.

    Evidence for what? I’ve linked evidence to what I was saying, you are ignoring it, again…

    You’re not willing to give a country that’s being invaded the benefit of a doubt… I see why you fled you’re a sympathizer.

    What benefit of the doubt?? Some of my family is in Ukraine right now, and each day they fear being kidnapped on the street… What benefit of the doubt you are talking about?? How am I a sympathizer for saying I’m afraid for the lives of those close to me?? You’re either incredibly sadistic or what you’re saying doesn’t make sense…

    Do you have even a little bit of empathy towards people being mass imprisoned and sent to die in Ukraine?..

    Madison420 ,

    Again that’s an inference, that’s at best secondary evidence it’s not proof.

    Yes, the benefit of a doubt. Oh so you’re such a coward you left your family to the slaughter but deign to moralize from your age space. I can fear anal probing because I’ve seen a convincing video or two, it doesn’t make it rational and it doesn’t make it reality. You’re afraid of something that isn’t proven and implying that the war can stop if Ukraine simply stops fighting and accepts Russian demands that’s Russian sympathizing. You’ve a rapist mentality about it like oh if Ukraine would have just accepted unreasonable demands they wouldn’t have had what’s coming to them. You’re faking a Ukrainian story, don’t try to high horse me shitheel.

    If it’s happening sure, I have more empathy for those that have died today while you sit here talking shit on your claimed country and appologise for Russian invasions. “Oh look no one got hurt the first time”“of yeah people got hurt but they weren’t really people right”

    Don’t call yourself Ukrainian anymore.

    FuzzChef ,

    What is it that makes you so consumed with hate that you are willing to fully align with the russian propaganda? There is nothing wrong with being critical, but if the consequence is, to just pick a side and unconditionally accept their narrative then you’ve given up any critical thinking.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    What is it that makes you so consumed with hate

    Whom do I hate? People who are trying to kill me and my family and friends? Should I be okay with it?

    that you are willing to fully align with the russian propaganda?

    I do not “fully align with the Russian propaganda”, only with parts of it that are true… And if I said something that is false, I’d very much like to learn where I’m wrong, if you could just point me exactly what is it that I’ve said that is wrong?

    you’ve given up any critical thinking

    Please tell me what made you think so

    Saryn ,

    Ah, yet another 4-letter pro-Kremlin account systematically spreading lies and propaganda using the exact same narratives as Russian state-controlled media. Must be a coincidence.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Ah yes, another lemmy.world account accusing me of spreading lies and yet not disproving any of them…

    Madison420 ,

    You haven’t said anything to disprove, you’ve offered an idiotic opinion not a fact or anyone you even claim to be a fact.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    You haven’t said anything to disprove

    The deleted comment said that I’m lying. By definition it means the author thinks that I’ve said something that is not true, so it can be disproved (or at least one can provide an argument why it’s likely not to be true).

    you’ve offered an idiotic opinion

    Is there any reason that it is idiotic, other than not being aligned with western propaganda?

    Madison420 ,

    They’re implying you’re lying to yourself.

    You keep saying everything like you have a solution but won’t say what it is.

    It’s idiotic because no bully is going to stop bullying you because you stop fighting back especially when they want something you have.

    Your fixing platitudes and dipshit idealism aren’t helpful.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    They’re implying you’re lying to yourself.

    About what?

    You keep saying everything like you have a solution but won’t say what it is.

    Already told you what the solution is.

    It’s idiotic because no bully is going to stop bullying you because you stop fighting back especially when they want something you have.

    The bully that bullies people in Ukraine is Zelensky though.

    Madison420 ,

    That cedeing to a country that openly plans to retake its former Soviet borders will somehow dispite all logic result in Russian withdrawal and lasting peace.

    Now, you’ve said peace talks. No one has stopped those and it’s no surprise fighting still has not stopped.

    You sure it isn’t the people literally blowing up Ukrainians. If Russia is so altruistic when then do they not see these “desperate prisoners of war” and give them mercy by withdrawimg from Ukraine since as your source says they are there killing civilians… Children… For a fucking political stunt.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    That cedeing to a country that openly plans to retake its former Soviet borders will somehow dispite all logic result in Russian withdrawal and lasting peace.

    If anything, the initial proposal was about Russia cedeing territory that it has captured (since 2022 invasion) to Ukraine, not the other way around.

    No one has stopped those

    No one has been doing any serious peace talks after the initial ones either.

    You sure it isn’t the people literally blowing up Ukrainians

    Those as well, but you have to deal with more immediate problem first.

    If Russia is so altruistic

    Where did I say that?

    they are there killing civilians…

    Ukraine does it as well.

    Madison420 ,

    Point to where it says cedeing territory.

    to yield or grant typically by treaty

    Russia won’t involve themselves without certain base demands that are never going to happen and remember they are invaders in a sovereign nation they started a war with to pressure NATO and pressure Ukraine out of joining NATO.

    More immediate then dead kids, whatever would that be?

    Your argument only works if they are at heart basically altruistic, otherwise simply stopping fighting back would simply result in a dramatic unopposed military defeat likely of the entire country so Ukraine could never join NATO. You know, that being their goal as per your sources.

    Remind me, did Ukraine start the war? Would there be any civilian war casualties if there weren’t a war?

    Again, childish short-sighted bullshit.

    bobr , (edited )
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Point to where it says cedeing territory.

    to yield or grant typically by treaty

    Ukraine would have promised not to join NATO, and Russia would have withdrawn to its prewar boundaries.

    More immediate then dead kids, whatever would that be?

    People being kidnapped on the streets and being sent to die.

    Madison420 ,

    You have 4 subjects and that sentence doesn’t make sense for any of them, can you try it again but you know … better.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Changed one mistake from ‘on’ to ‘and’, now it’s correct

    Madison420 ,

    That makes sense for one of those quotes, do you want to link them together into a coherent thought the people that aren’t voices in your head can understand as the language known as English. Can we do that?

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Let me know what exactly from my comment doesn’t make sense.
    I’ve just re-read and it seems to be well-formed.

    Madison420 ,

    Ok one by one.

    Point to where it says cedeing territory.

    Did you point to in the previous contextual comment where I said cede territory. I did not at that, I said they would have to cede to Russia as in relinquish sovereign authority by treaty.

    to yield or grant typically by treaty

    Ukraine would have promised not to join NATO, and Russia would have withdrawn to its prewar boundaries.

    That’s not me, that’s your source. Keep up with the conversation.

    ^ A page break so you don’t sound like a fucking lunatic who can’t separate two thought chains.

    More immediate then dead kids, whatever would that be?

    People being kidnapped on the streets and being sent to die.

    So these people, who you have zero firsthand accounts of are more important then not killing kids so a sovereign nation doesn’t join NATO as is their right as an autonomous nation.

    If I want you to not be such a fucking idiot can I invade your parents home kill your daughter and displace your grandparents? No? Then how the fuck do you excuse Russia doing the same.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    I don’t understand what you’re saying before the “page break”. You asked me to point to where it says Russia would cede territory to the Ukraine. It’s in this quote:

    Ukraine would have promised not to join NATO, and Russia would have withdrawn to its prewar boundaries.

    “withdrawn to its prewar boundaries” - effectively cedeing the territory it captured back to Ukraine. It fits your definition of “to yield or grant typically by treaty”.

    Then how the fuck do you excuse Russia doing the same.

    I never “excused” Russia doing the same. You put words in my mouth again, just like you do for the rest of the conversation.

    Madison420 ,

    No, read the comment again. I asked you to point out where in my relevant comment the phrase “cede territory” exists. You keep quoting your source, I’m not asking for where in the greater universe the phrase exists but rather one specific and specified place. Please, point it out.

    You are. Your dipshit theory is that the invader if offered zero resistance will simply stop invading out of the good of their heart even though but your source the only reason Russia is in the country killing kids is to pressure Ukraine to not join NATO.

    If that isn’t excusing murderous colonial fucking intent I don’t know what is.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    I asked you to point out where in my relevant comment the phrase “cede territory” exists

    I kinda don’t understand what are we even talking about now in this thread, but here is quote of you talking about cedeing… I guess you’re trying to say it wasn’t about territory? OK then…

    That cedeing to a country

    the invader if offered zero resistance will simply stop invading out of the good of their heart

    Please stop putting words in my mouth. Quote me where I said that.

    Madison420 , (edited )

    You kinda don’t understand most things. I’ll make it simple, where in my words did I say “cede territory” in that comment. Point even to where the word territory appeared in it.

    Ed: I’ll help, this comment. lemmy.world/comment/11819058

    Find “cede territory” or “territory” mentioned at all in that entire comment.

    Your plan to stop the war is “stop grabbing people off the street”, you say the military is almost all forced fighters and would then flee. If there is no more military how do you expect resistance to be offered? Magic, are we to call Merlin? Dog meat? Pray real hard? What?

    wieson ,

    This operation has the potential to better Ukraine’s strategic position greatly. Ukraine winning means the dying of civilians stops. Ukraine giving up would not have the same result.

    Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Czechoslovakia? - No.

    Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Poland? - No.

    Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered the Netherlands? - No.

    Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Denmark? - No.

    Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered France? - No.

    Did ww2 stop when Germany conquered Norway? - No.

    Ww2 ended, when Nazi Germany was defeated.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Ukraine winning means the dying of civilians stops. Ukraine giving up would not have the same result.

    Ukraine winning, Ukraine giving up, Ukraine making a peace deal with Russia, Russia winning - all those options will mean the dying of civilians stops.
    The only option where people will continue to die is the option you (probably) support - continuing the war.

    wieson ,

    That is not my perception.

    Russia winning means, the dying will continue in the suppression of their new subjects and in future invasions since this one would have been successful in the end.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    How many people have died from “supression” (whatever it means in this context) in the Crimea, that has been occupied for 10 years now?
    And the next question - how come this number (is it 0 or more?) is less then the number of civilians (some of whom be Ukrainians or ex-Ukrainians) that died from Ukrainian shelling?
    Do you think people should have a choice of dying in this, very real, war, or in some hypothetical could-happen war in the future?

    Madison420 ,

    Bro people died defending it and the rest fled so they weren’t raped or sledgehammered to death.

    What’s your solution dipshit.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Bro people died defending it and the rest fled so they weren’t raped or sledgehammered to death.

    Are we still talking about Crimea? Because what you are saying is completely false…

    Please link some proofs to what you’re saying.

    Madison420 ,

    Are you honestly looking for proof of the crimean invasion famously costing Ukraine an international airport and many many dead defenders.

    en.m.wikipedia.org/…/Battle_of_Antonov_Airport

    The only people who say no one died dispite all evidence otherwise is Russia.

    Ed: PS claiming you’re Ukrainian is pretty shitty boss, you clearly aren’t what’s next you have cancer and a Canadian girlfriend?

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Are you trolling or something?
    We are talking about Crimea in 2014, and you are linking an article from 2022 about Kiev…

    Madison420 ,

    6 dead

    …wikipedia.org/…/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russ…

    Try again dipshit, move the goalposts however youd like I’ll make sure I refute every single one.

    Donbas also 2014 invasion.

    en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    6 dead

    …wikipedia.org/…/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russ…

    From the header of the article there were 2 soldiers killed and 2 civilians killed. So equal to amount of people that died just from the Ukrainian shelling of Crimea in 2024 …wikipedia.org/…/June_2024_Sevastopol_missile_att…. How does it misalign with anything I’ve said?

    move the goalposts however youd like I’ll make sure I refute every single one.

    Okay sure! First task for you: quote me moving goalposts in this thread at least once :) This has been about Crimea from the start, and you’re the one trying to move the goalpost :)

    Donbas

    Oops you just moved the goalpost…

    Madison420 ,

    Protest is defense dipshit.

    No it’s been about your nonsensical stance to end a war. Idealistic bullshit isn’t going to stop anything. Fighting stopped in 2016… And started again when Russia invaded a different part of Ukraine. But no, sure they’ll never invade again, it’s not like they’ve done it multiple times in our lifetime or anything.

    Ed: no moved goalpost for me, my point is they’ve invaded before, agreed to stop and are yet again invading, thusly your point makes no goddamn sense.

    Vikthor ,

    You lie, moskals have been observed to continue stealing, raping, killing and ethnic cleansing long after any hostilities ceased in many armed conflicts before. Their behaviour in Bucha and elsewhere proves they haven’t changed one bit.

    OurToothbrush ,

    Don’t even know what they’re trying to communicate, but it looks bad

    Oh wow we got some “have to blow off the dust it is so old” racism here

    linkhidalgogato ,

    would ukraine winning mean civilians stop dying in the eastern oblasts where the coup regime have been murdering civilians and bombing and shelling them since 2014?

    nexguy , (edited )
    @nexguy@lemmy.world avatar

    The West offered Zelensky a way out and to give up the moment the war started. He and his country refused and asked for weapons to defend themselves against a tyrant that will never stop. How exactly did the west force Ukraine to fight?

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    The West offered Zelwnsky a way out and to give up the moment the war started.

    What? The west (and especially Boris Johnson) encouraged Zelensky to fight and encouraged him to drop the peace proposal (which included Russia going back to pre-2022 invasion borders!).

    He and his country refused

    Just “He”.

    How exactly did the west force Ukraine to fight?

    The west supports Zelensky’s regime, which kidnaps people on the streets and sends them to die.

    nexguy ,
    @nexguy@lemmy.world avatar

    Zelensky could have fled. He refused. Ukrainians could have surrendered, they refused surprising everyone. Putin will never stop unless he is stopped. To support Ukraine surrendering is to support many many more Ukrainian deaths in the future.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Ukrainians could have surrendered

    No. We don’t have a choice. We cannot even choose our president, much less choosing to end the war. We cannot speak out against our government (except anonymously like I do). People cannot even fucking leave their houses without fear of being kidnapped.

    BlitzoTheOisSilent ,

    Then go to Russia, I’m sure they’d be more than willing to send you to the front to kill your fellow Ukrainian brothers and sisters, and it’ll get you out of the “prison” that is supposedly Ukraine. 🙄

    Wtf is the point of your comment chain? I’ve seen and heard no claims that Ukraine is kidnapping people off the street to be sent to the front, outside of Russian owned state media. The same media that hides and covers up the fact that Russia is doing exactly what you’re describing to its own citizens.

    Ukraine was invaded, and the country chose to defend itself as opposed to roll over and take Putin’s boot on their throat. The invasion was begun under a completely fabricated claim about historical Russian boundaries. Zelensky and Ukraine have, to me, been nothing but up front about their motives, their rationale, and pride they have for their country.

    I’m sure they’d be ashamed to know you think so little of your brother and sister Ukrainians, but then again, it sure sounds like you’d rather have a Russian boot on your neck than a Ukrainian uniform on your shoulders. Cowardly, and pathetic. I wouldn’t spit in your direction, it’d be an insult to the spit.

    ghost_of_faso2 ,
    @ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    lemmy worlds least deranged person telling an actual ukranian they should be happy to die for zelensky lmao

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    I fucking hate them…
    Almost the entire Lemmy (with an exception of a few .ml and other instances) is telling me how I and my compatriots are happily dying for our glorious master Zelensky, while in reality we have to hide and/or flee, because we just want to live…
    I don’t know if they are truly evil and sadistic or just brainwashed by propaganda… What the fuck did we do to them to deserve this treatment??..

    Anyway, just wanted to say thanks to those who don’t support this sadistic bullshit…

    ghost_of_faso2 ,
    @ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    The prick is clearly an ex-american drone operator who thinks you should take pride in dying for some douchebag upper class ghoul like biden, zelensky or whatever genocider they stan currently.

    Dont worry about it, they probably have various stages of PTSD from all the kids they blew up during the gulf wars and will either kill themselves or there famalies within the next 10 years.

    bobr , (edited )
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Then go to Russia

    If I were in Ukraine, I’d be wishing for opportunity to go to Russia, because it’s one of the few ways to escape it… Thankfully I’ve left before the war started, so I don’t need to.

    get you out of the “prison” that is supposedly Ukraine. 🙄

    Supposedly?? What the hell do you mean by that? theconversation.com/why-banning-men-from-leaving-…

    Wtf is the point of your comment chain?

    And in the next sentence you say:

    I’ve seen and heard no claims that Ukraine is kidnapping people off the street to be sent to the front, outside of Russian owned state media.

    Well, exactly so that you have a chance to see it, and stop thinking of yourself as a good guy who is helping Ukrainians while in reality you are helping to murder us.

    Here is an archive with tons of videos of kidnapping people: uadraftmuseum.ch
    And inb4 you claim that this is Russian propaganda, here are links to other websites just with less content:
    www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/…/ar-BB1naQUE
    www.rferl.org/a/…/32310040.html
    www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065
    theguardian.com/…/bribes-and-hiding-at-home-the-u…

    The same media that hides and covers up the fact that Russia is doing exactly what you’re describing to its own citizens.

    Well, I never claimed that Russia is the good guy here, but they are not doing exactly the same. They have conscription, but they don’t fucking kidnap people from the streets (or at least on a way smaller scale…) and they don’t turn their country into a mass prison that you can’t leave.

    and the country chose to defend itself

    Zelensky’s regime decided to turn country into a mass-prison and kidnap people and send them to die. It is not “country choosing to defend itself”.

    I’m sure they’d be ashamed to know you think so little of your brother and sister Ukrainians

    My Ukrainian “brothers” either already escaped Ukraine, or are trying to, or just trying to survive there. The “sisters” left a long time ago.

    it sure sounds like you’d rather have a Russian boot on your neck

    What “Russian boot”? I might have missed what happened to people in Crimea, living under “Russian boot” for 10 years now… How many have died or been repressed? From Russia’s hand I mean, not from Ukrainian shelling of Crimea…
    But I mean yeah, obviously I’d prefer living under Russian boot than under Ukrainian boot, with Russian boot at least I’d not fear being kidnapped on the street and sent to die, and being able to freely leave a country sounds nice as well…

    BlitzoTheOisSilent ,

    If I were in Ukraine, I’d be wishing for opportunity to go to Russia, because it’s one of the few ways to escape it… Thankfully I’ve left before the war started, so I don’t need to.

    So again, pathetic and a coward, assuming you’re from Ukraine at all, Comrade. 🙄

    Supposedly?? What the hell do you mean by that? theconversation.com/why-banning-men-from-leaving-…

    Huh, a country being invaded needs men to fight, who would’ve fucking thought. So what’s your solution? End the war and let Russia have their way? Makes sense, it doesn’t affect you in the slightest as a coward who fled his homeland and now comes online to trash it and defend the invaders.

    Pathetic coward.

    Well, exactly so that you have a chance to see it, and stop thinking of yourself as a good guy who is helping Ukrainians while in reality you are helping to murder us.

    Right, so if the West stopped supplying arms to Ukraine to defend themselves against an unlawful aggressor, Russia will immediately stop the invasion?

    Tell me, is that why Ukraine’s military chooses to bomb and seek out strategic resources for their attacks, while Russia bombs apartment buildings and city centers? Yep, must be that pesky western influence that wants to check notes stop the authoritarian creep of Russia as they attempt to reclaim their Soviet satellite states.

    You’re right, the West is to blame for Russia invading another country, raping, and slaughtering its people. I’m sure the people being killed and injured in Russia’s bombing attacks really wish the Russians would just take over already and turn them into second-class citizens, at fucking best.

    Pathetic coward.

    Well, I never claimed that Russia is the good guy here, but they are not doing exactly the same.

    No, you are, because if you weren’t, you wouldn’t be defending Russia at all in any of this, because they are 100% in the wrong, from start to finish. And yes, they are doing exactly the same thing. Russia has pulled people out of their prisons and sent them to the front lines, so do they not count as people to you, because they’re prisoners?

    Russia has also been sending captured Ukrainian troops to the front lines, along with kidnapping their own men off the streets and sending them into battle with few supplies, if any. Like, are you fucking dense, man? Eyes wide shut kind of thing?

    Pathetic coward.

    Zelensky’s regime decided to turn country into a mass-prison and kidnap people and send them to die. It is not “country choosing to defend itself”.

    Zelensky was elected by the Ukrainian people, it’s not a fucking regime. And he went to war with the backing of his people. I’m sorry Ukraine was the first target Russia had in their quest to reclaim the glory that was the Soviet Union 🙄 But they are, and they could have chosen to bend the knee to Russia, or rightfully, defend themselves.

    They, the people of Ukraine, chose to defend themselves, so fuck right off with this “Zelensky evil dictator” bullshit. He’s not, he’s just fucking not. If the people of Ukraine didn’t want to defend their homeland, the troops would just surrender instead of fighting back, and they’re fucking not.

    So fuck right off, you pathetic coward, and I feel sorry for whatever country your cowardly ass ended up in. Hope they’re never invaded, we’ll all know the first person will be that starts sucking his invaders cocks down to the balls.

    ghost_of_faso2 ,
    @ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    https://lemmygrad.ml/pictrs/image/71816249-e11a-438c-82ab-2ea561742fdc.jpeg

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Oh well, writing more responses to you wouldn’t make sense, clearly you’re only here for personal attacks :/

    BlitzoTheOisSilent ,

    At least I’m not selling out my supposed homeland to their invaders.

    Pathetic coward.

    ghost_of_faso2 ,
    @ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    ‘pathetic coward’ as he berates someone for not going into a meat grinder to die for someone who wont hold elections

    alcoholicorn ,

    Sure is brave of you to call people cowards for not fighting your battle.

    Why don’t you go to Ukraine and fight?

    BlitzoTheOisSilent ,
    1. It’s not my battle, my country wasn’t invaded. His was, but he had already left, and refuses to go back and help, but defends the people invading his country. That’s pathetic and cowardly, and spoken by someone in a position of privilege from foreign soil (again, he left before the invasion) but claims to speak for his countrymen and women actually living through the atrocities and attacks.
    2. My country is supplying military aid to Ukraine via my tax dollars, so while I’m not directly fighting, my country and myself are assisting them in their effort to defend themselves against an unjustified invasion.
    3. I am a veteran of my country’s armed services, can you say the same?
    4. I also never told him to go fight, but it seems pathetic and cowardly to sit behind a computer screen in another country, claim to speak on behalf of your home nation while propagating Russian-media talking points. So I stand by what I’ve said.
    alcoholicorn ,

    It’s not my battle

    Do you think we’d be sending them weapons (and buying up their assets for pennies) if this battle wasn’t yours?

    My country is supplying military aid to Ukraine via my tax dollars

    They’ve also supported Israel. By that logic, you, personally are assisting them in genocide.

    I am a veteran of my country’s armed services, can you say the same?

    I will serve crack before I serve this country. Look at every military action in this country’s history since WWII. In none of them were we the good guys.

    I also never told him to go fight

    Oh fuck off. He knows more about the situation than you do. He is right there experiencing it.

    BlitzoTheOisSilent ,

    Do you think we’d be sending them weapons (and buying up their assets for pennies) if this battle wasn’t yours?

    Welcome to the world under capitalism, guess we should just do nothing then, fuck all the actual people that live in Ukraine and have had their lives upended or destroyed because of the war.

    Seriously? Fuck off with that bullshit.

    They’ve also supported Israel. By that logic, you, personally are assisting them in genocide.

    Yep, and I’m fucking pissed about it. This discussion also isn’t about Israel, so don’t change the subject.

    I will serve crack before I serve this country. Look at every military action in this country’s history since WWII. In none of them were we the good guys.

    Edgy, wow, impressed. Never said we were, just said I’ve served, so don’t put words in my mouth.

    Oh fuck off. He knows more about the situation than you do. He is right there experiencing it.

    By his own admission, he left Ukraine before the invasion, so no, he isn’t there experiencing it. He’s safely in another country, acting like he understands what’s going on in a country he currently doesn’t live in. And then acts like he speaks on behalf of Ukraine when they democratically elected their leader, continue to fight against their unjustified invaders, despite apparently living in a prison-state worse than Russia.

    While also claiming Russia is not actively engaged in the very same activities he is accusing Ukraine of.

    So go fuck yourself, I don’t know why you’re defending some Russian troll.

    alcoholicorn ,

    fuck all the actual people that live in Ukraine and have had their lives upended or destroyed because of the war.

    They wouldn’t have had their lives upended if we weren’t doing everything in our power to prolong the war! This is the absolute worst case scenario for actual Ukrainians.

    Never said we were, just said I’ve served, so don’t put words in my mouth.

    So you understand making the world a worse place isn’t the gotcha you seem to think it is right?

    they democratically elected their leader

    The one who suspended elections after he got elected on a platform of peace and failed to end the civil war?

    apparently living in a prison-state worse than Russia.

    How many Ukrainians living in Ukraine do you know? I’m certain it’s less than the actual Ukrainian right here telling you what the situation is.

    So go fuck yourself, I don’t know why you’re defending some Russian troll.

    You really don’t give a shit about actual Ukrainians beyond their willingness to bleed for the profits of the military industrial complex.

    ghost_of_faso2 ,
    @ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    They think war is when you drone strike a wedding and believes the above poster is a coward.

    They dont actually care about Ukranians, they just want Russians to die.

    BlitzoTheOisSilent ,

    They wouldn’t have had their lives upended if we weren’t doing everything in our power to prolong the war!

    They wouldn’t have had their lives upended if Russia didn’t illegitimately invade their homeland. Twice, in the last decade, I believe. I also don’t know wtf you mean when you say prolong the war, if Ukraine stopped fighting now you don’t think Russia wouldn’t just go at it again?

    So you understand making the world a worse place isn’t the gotcha you seem to think it is right?

    So you understand that this discussion is about OPC and their view on Ukraine and the Russian invasion? I told you I served to answerbyour initial question as to why I don’t go fight in Ukraine: I’ve already done my time in the service, was the implication you seemed to miss.

    Trying another subject change isn’t the gotcha you think it is, kid.

    The one who suspended elections after he got elected on a platform of peace and failed to end the civil war?

    The one who’s following Ukrainian law and listening to the general vibe of the country and the situation with the war?

    Or the Zelensky who is open to the idea of having elections, but does not think it’s a good idea based on both the law and I assume logistical decisions, like having mass groups if people located in small areas for extended periods of time during, say, a war.

    Not being literate on the world stage isn’t the gotcha you think it is, bud.

    How many Ukrainians living in Ukraine do you know? I’m certain it’s less than the actual Ukrainian right here telling you what the situation is.

    None, as does the very obvious Russian bot who’s, like I said before, just propagating the same Russian State Media talking points that you’ve somehow fallen for. Sad, really.

    You really don’t give a shit about actual Ukrainians beyond their willingness to bleed for the profits of the military industrial complex.

    Mm, no, I do give a shit about a sovereign nation defending themselves from a foreign aggressor, and reclaiming any illegally held territory going back to, idk, 2013-ish. 🤷‍♀️ If it was so important to the military industrial complex, why did the GOP actively fight to stop it? That’s taken money out of the wealthy’s purse, can’t have that.

    You also never answered why you’re defending a Russian troll, so let’s try again in a language you may understand:

    Почему вы защищаете русского тролля?

    Vilian ,

    I think he didn’t get it, he need to be reminded a few more times of how much pathetic and coward he is

    Madison420 ,

    and encouraged him to drop the peace proposal (which included Russia going back to pre-2022 invasion borders!).

    I would love to see the source on that.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Sure! :)

    …wikipedia.org/…/Peace_negotiations_in_the_Russia…

    libertarianinstitute.org/…/bad-advice-ukraine-the…

    Madison420 ,

    Neither of those say Russia was willing to agree to pre 2022 borders.

    Try again.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Neither of those say Russia was winning to agree to pre 2022 borders.

    Try again.

    It quite literally says that (I assume its “willing” instead of “winning”), also linking to a source… Quote:

    Ukraine would have promised not to join NATO, and Russia would have withdrawn to its prewar boundaries.

    Madison420 ,

    Cede to Russian demands on a sovereign nation they have hostily invaded.

    Russia was “prepared to end the war if we agreed to,—as Finland once did,—neutrality, and committed that we would not join NATO.” He importantly adds that the NATO promise was the “key point” for Russia and that “Everything else was simply rhetoric and political ‘seasoning’.”

    Your source refutes your bullshit “Western pressure” argument, Russian pressure was to literally invade and try to use Ukrainian territory to leverage against Ukraine.

    Arakhamiya is the third well placed official to make the claim that Russia’s primary reason for invading Ukraine was to stop NATO expansion east to its borders and, particularly, Ukraine’s NATO aspirations.

    Your source essentially ignores that the war could have “stopped” before it started off Russia didn’t choose to invade a sovereign nation specifically to spite NATO. But no, you’re right I’m sure if they just stop fighting and roll over Russia certainly won’t invade again and pull the same shit again.

    Your idealism or stupidity is almost admirably idiotic.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Your source refutes your bullshit “Western pressure” argument, Russian pressure was to literally invade and try to use Ukrainian territory to leverage against Ukraine.

    Quote needed :)
    I’ve said that the west encouraged Zelensky to fight, and the part you’ve linked doesn’t refute it.

    if they just stop fighting

    “They” can fight all they want, till the last person standing if they want. They are forcing other people to fight for them though.

    Madison420 ,

    That would be political pressure dipshit, your negotiator explains Russia invaded to pressure Ukraine to not join NATO before the West could encourage zelensky to fight.

    Who says aside from you and Russia.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Who says aside from you and Russia.

    I don’t understand what this means. Who says what?

    Madison420 ,

    The fact you can’t provide a source says that.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    A source for what? That says what?

    Madison420 ,

    They" can fight all they want, till the last person standing if they want. They are forcing other people to fight for them though.

    Even your own sources say they aren’t being forced to fight, they get fined, imprisoned or renounce and seek asylum.

    Your solutions are that of an especially dumb child that thinks every flight ends like a goddamn pokemon battle. Ain’t no nurse joy out here boss, just dead children.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Even your own sources say they aren’t being forced to fight, they get fined, imprisoned or renounce and seek asylum.

    Oh right, because “fight or you will go to prison (where you possibly will be tortured)” is not being forced to fight… What kind of fucked up logic is that…

    As for renouncing citizenship and seeking asylum - please send me an article that describes how an average Joe can do it. It’s not possible.

    Madison420 ,

    Hold on now, your claim was that they’re getting grabbed off the street and forced to fight. You offered sources, none of which say in any way that people are being grabbed off the street and forced to fight.

    www.unhcr.org/ua/en/refugees-asylum-seekers

    There’s about a half dozen resources for it and aside from that your bullshit fleeing story only proves that leaving the country is possible. Russian appologism isn’t a good luck pimpin.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Hold on now, your claim was that they’re getting grabbed off the street and forced to fight. You offered sources, none of which say in any way that people are being grabbed off the street and forced to fight.

    My sources literally show people on the streets being kidnapped and forcefully put into vans… Did you open any of the articles I linked?..

    www.unhcr.org/ua/en/refugees-asylum-seekers

    As I already told you (and linked sources), it’s impossible for an average Joe to renounce citizenship.

    your bullshit fleeing story only proves that leaving the country is possible.

    I left before the war started.

    My family member left through the occupied territories, he had to lie to authorities that he had a reason to go there. So in the eyes of government he left the country illegally. Just like all the other people who leave through occupied territories or rivers/mountains. Or through giving bribes.

    Madison420 ,

    They show things claimed to be that, Sure. Partisans are also grabbed off the street because of the whole sabotage thing people aren’t too keen on. Again, where’s your first-hand account, if the percentage is so goddamn high you should have a firsthand account.

    It isn’t, linking a resource for finding asylum back to me doesn’t actually do it say anything and “nuh uh” isn’t a defense anyone but a child should be using.

    So you didn’t flee, you fucking moved ya dramatic bitch.

    So again, people can leave by your admission. Your claim of minor risk in a literal warzone when attempting to dodge war service is astoundingly stupid.

    It’s like you think you’re immune to the incredible violence as long as you think the rights thoughts and have a positive attitude.

    bobr ,
    @bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org avatar

    Again, where’s your first-hand account

    Can you explain why all the evidence I’ve linked is not enough?

    It isn’t, linking a resource for finding asylum back to me doesn’t actually do it say anything and “nuh uh” isn’t a defense anyone but a child should be using.

    What are you talking about? I didn’t link it back to you, I quoted you posting it - and replied that it is not possible to do.

    So you didn’t flee, you fucking moved

    I Ctrl+F my messages and didn’t find myself saying that I fleed. You are the one who started saying this.

    So again, people can leave by your admission.

    By that same logic people can leave North Korea. Is it true? Well yes, some people left North Korea, didn’t they? Yet you probably wouldn’t say that people are free to leave it. Then why are you saying that people can leave Ukraine?..

    Madison420 , (edited )

    Because they aren’t firsthand. You have videos without context. Not one single person who got grabbed is in any of those, the best you have is secondhand accounts of what people hear and then recount. You’re taking those two and saying something is definitely happening and Ukraine is the devil worse so by your account then these kid killing invaders. Not possibly happening, not maybe but definitely.

    We figured that out already, you mass quote and don’t double couch or page break because clearly you’re a psychopath. Again “nuh uh” is not an argument.

    It is true, people leave though North Korea has always had a no emmigration policy. Remind me, is North Korea at war or are we intentionally picking dramatic examples. You’ve yet to pick that country so we can talk about how wartime governments are almost always authoritarian by necessity and why.

    They are just as free as any other person you know aside from the whole having to dodge landmines, tanks, infantry, air cover, spy programs, drones… But remind me, we people like yourself free to leave the country before the invasion of a sovereign nation? Remember your dramatic escape necessitates your answer.

    Ed: there you go, you might edit all your comments but you have to be smart enough to catch the admissions as well.

    I ask:

    Again what nation did you flee?

    You respond:

    Isn’t it obvious that it is Ukraine?

    You claim you fled, you moved you dramatic bitch.

    linkhidalgogato ,

    is this what the lastest stage of a copium addiction looks like?

    nexguy ,
    @nexguy@lemmy.world avatar

    Zelensky wasn’t offered a ride out of Ukraine? Is that what RT tells you?

    o_d ,
    @o_d@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Holy shit. We’re back to this? Do you also think that the ghost of Kiev will lead the Ukranazis to victory?

    Vilian ,

    The only one killing Ukrainians is Russia pig

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