Obviously, supporting a New York real estate billionaire is anti-establishment for some reason

Maggoty , 5 months ago

Hahahahahahaha.

Or so the victim movement wants us to believe.

OurToothbrush , 5 months ago

Fascists aren’t anti establishment. Their whole thing is doing even worse things to preserve capitalism when it enters crisis.

crackajack , 5 months ago

They become the establishment.

OurToothbrush , 5 months ago

No, they always were. That’s the point of fascism. To present an “alternative” that keeps the same group in power.

KingThrillgore , 5 months ago

My dad always said “Don’t trust a man in a suit telling you who’s wrong” but then again he fell in line with Trump when he grew old.

Christ, if that happens to me, kill me.

hex_m_hell , 5 months ago

Don’t worry, he did it so you won’t get a chance to.

Custoslibera , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

Those fucks who run Parler aren’t anti-establishment, quite the opposite, they are boot licking fascists.

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

“Stealing I can accept, but having an opinion that’s different from my own is where I draw the line.”

AVincentInSpace , 5 months ago

1. Piracy isn’t stealing, primarily since the victim still has the pirated goods and can continue to sell them, but doubly so since people who pay for those goods legitimately don’t own them and are at the complete mercy of the company to continue to access them. History is rife with examples of companies removing access to digitally paid for goods with no explanation or recourse. Look at the recent PlayStation fiasco, or Warner Brothers cancelling Infinity Train and Inside Job (and pulling the completed seasons from streaming services) because they wanted a tax write-off.
2. Questioning the validity of science and half the global population’s worth of empirical evidence and endangering oneself and others purely to be contrarian, and, more importantly, continuing to support someone who calls immigrants vermin and quotes Mussolini in his campaign speeches goes beyond “having a different opinion”

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

1. Questioning the validity of science is precisely how science is done. You form a hypothesis and design an experiment to either prove or disprove it. Reading papers and just believing everything they say, taking for granted that the people who wrote them carried out the experiment(s) exactly as described, didn’t fudge any numbers, and declared all their conflicts of interest and sources of funding accurately and unbiased, isn’t.
2. Making your own discussion platform because you don’t like the other ones that are available is no worse of an offense than going to a different room. Lemmy literally IS such a place that was created because people didn’t like what was happening on reddit. Basically, what you’re saying is that YOU deserve a safe space because your opinions are valid and correct, and other people don’t because theirs are wrong. I don’t know, man… sounds kinda fascist if you ask me.

AVincentInSpace , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

1. Questioning the conclusions that scientists before you have reached is something that is good to do if you have the tools to do your own primary research and publish your own study. If you don’t have the tools to do your own study, looking at the hundreds of papers out there in peer-reviewed journals (peer-reviewed meaning multiple independent teams of scientists did the experiment as described and got the same result the authors did) all showing the same results are about as good as you can get. If you don’t trust Big Science, just look around you. Take for example the question of whether the vaccine is safe to get. A common argument I heard was that people didn’t want to be guinea pigs, which would have been fair were it not for the fact that half the global population had already gotten it and less than 1% had any ill effects. As for whether it protects people from the virus, one need look no further than the endless stories from healthcare workers about the people they kept alive. All of the life threatening cases were from people who hadn’t gotten the shot.

Acting as though the conclusions scientists before you have reached are false because a podcast you follow said they were, without supplying any data to suggest such a thing, is a wholesale rejection of the scientific method.

2. The person you replied to never said anything about Parler itself, let alone whether platforms that don’t follow the popular consensus should exist. That is unambiguously good. What they said was that the people who run Parler are fascist bootlickers, which, now that Trump has said in as many words that he plans to be a dictator, is true of anyone who still supports him.
3. Can’t help but notice your response didn’t address the piracy issue. Can I assume we agree on that?

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

1. The problem with “big science” is that the ordinary person has no conceivable means by which to verify any of their claims, they have to be taken by faith. And there have been many, many cases in the past where this turned out to be a mistake. Unlike what some people will have you believe, science is never really settled, things that used to be the common consensus have turned out to be wrong many times in the past. What makes you think that nowadays, we’re somehow past all that, just because our methods are more precise than our forefathers’? Why should the knowledge we have now be the end-all-be-all when not too long ago, doctors used to prescribe cigarettes as a treatment for asthma?
2. Okay, but that’s just an opinion, not scientific consensus. People on Parler think the Fediverse is full of pedophiles, does that give them the right to shut it down?
3. I don’t care about stealing as long as there’s a legitimate need and it’s not just out of laziness or greed. I used to pirate my games and software when I was too broke to afford them, but once I started earning more money, I gave up on that and started paying for them, even though pirating would have sometimes been easier or more convenient.

AVincentInSpace , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

1. So you disagree with the scientific consensus. Cool. Where’s your data to the contrary? When are you publishing your study? Or are you just here to cast doubt on the validity of science as a concept, and use that as a basis to believe whatever a talking head says?
2. Parler advertises itself towards Trump supporters. I think it’s safe to say there are Trump supporters there. Also, once again, neither I nor the OP said anything at all about Parler itself, only its founders. Where did you get the idea that I think it should be shut down?
3. I already told you why piracy isn’t stealing. Do you have a response to that?

It’s becoming increasingly obvious you’re not arguing in good faith. I’m going to bed now. You’ll have to pretend to argue with someone else for a while.

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

1. Strawman. I didn’t say I disagree with it, I just listed some valid reasons for why people might.
2. Yeah, okay, I get it, you just hate them. That’s allowed of course. I’m just pointing out that hating them for hating you makes you no better than them.
3. Of course it’s stealing, your justifications don’t change that. Like I said, I don’t think it’s objectionable when it’s done for legitimate reasons (like if the company removes access for something you already bought and paid for), and forgivable if you’re too broke to afford it, but it’s stealing nevertheless.

ulterno , 5 months ago

1. It’s fine to disagree with scientific consensus. Even more so when there is not a real consensus.

   1. Going by a recent example where in some cases, it was being mandated for everyone to be vaccinated when possible; later, it was noted that vaccinations weren’t significantly useful for people who had recently had COVID (sorry, too lazy too link. It was just a news anyway and not a res paper). But this pertains to a condition that is currently undergoing change, with new strains coming out every now and then.
   2. An older example. Old enough to get into our school textbooks. “different tastes on different parts of the tongue”. The text used a kind of language that made readers think that given specific tastes can only be detected at those places, whereas the results from actual science were much more nuanced. Furthermore, the textbooks encouraged the students to “verify” this by trying different tasting objects on their corresponding taste locations, while not hinting them to try any of those in places other than those, which would have easily disproven the statement in the way it was written in the text.
   • The point here is that you are free to believe what you may, but when your actions significantly and maybe adversely affect others, you have to be careful about what others believe and whether your belief has any concrete proof. e.g. It’s fine if you don’t want to live in the same room with a vaxxer (just live in some other room, or don’t rent a multi-tenant room in the first place), but that doesn’t give you the license to harass that person or their family.

2. meh

3. It’s stealing both ways. Whether it’s legal or moral or not, is another discussion. WB stole from the customer. It was legal (they probably had it somewhere in their EULA) and probably immoral (because they knew most customers would not really read it well and those who did, would still probably give them money because they have no other option if they wanted to watch the exclusive). Pirates then stole from WB (in this case it was illegal), but the moral implications change upon perspective. Neither side of the argument is even close to ideal, but sometimes you can’t really condemn yourself for saying “It is what it is” and picking a side.

Lookie here! This thread has 8 parallel lines.

AVincentInSpace , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

1. Do we agree, then, that science should be the foremost authority in decision making, since we seem to agree that there is no better one, and that therefore your previous point was addressing nothing?
2. I don’t hate them because they hate me. I hate them because they are rooting for a person who calls himself a dictator, and who has a history of making credible threats against the lives and livelihoods of people I care deeply about, to take over the country in which I live. That does not make me a hypocrite.
3. I don’t hear a counterargument.

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

1. Only if your science is comfortable with being questioned and doesn’t require banning, unpersoning, or othering people for the sake of achieving consensus.
2. How many of your loved ones has Trump killed or is directly responsible for? If zero, then how do you know his threats are credible? Politicians make wild promises all the time, especially during election years, and then end up not keeping them. Unless he has personally sent you a letter saying he’ll kill your mom if he gets elected, I’m gonna suggest you’re overreacting just a little bit.
3. I said that regardless of whether or not legitimate reasons for it may exist in some circumstances, it is still stealing. If that doesn’t look like a counterargument to you, then I don’t know what does.

AVincentInSpace , 4 months ago

1. I’m gonna need a source to say that’s happening.
2. Well you see, the thing is, Democrats tend to care about people they don’t know personally. It’s this little thing called having empathy and I know it may seem a foreign concept to you. Trump successfully overturned Roe v Wade. Despite not being a woman, or personally knowing any women who need abortions, I care deeply about this issue, and I surmise that if he can overturn the biggest, most untouchable supreme court case we’ve ever had, then whatever he has planned for trans people (a group of which I am also not a part) has a pretty good likelihood of succeeding.
3. You still have not provided a reason why you think piracy is stealing. It’s not. If I were to set up an inductor under a power line to steal power, I would be depriving the power company of electricity they could have sold to another paying customer without giving them anything in return. When I torrent a TV show, I don’t even put any additional load on Netflix’s servers. Heck, with their current revenue model I don’t even make the show’s producers any less money.

MacNCheezus , 4 months ago

1. LMAO you serious? Just look at the amount of shit I got for even speaking out in favor of people who question the science.
2. “Democrats tend to care about people they don’t know personally” – yes, unless they’re Republicans, in which case all empathy goes out the window and blind hatred is allowed to take over. Or if they’re unborn babies in their mother’s wombs, in which case they aren’t even people at all, which means it’s fine to just kill them.
3. I’m sorry, but that’s stupid. Yes, the producers of the shows that already exist still got paid, but if enough people cancel their subscriptions because they can torrent the content for free, there might not be enough money to produce tomorrow’s shows, and if you enjoy watching their stuff, then you kinda stole from yourself, didn’t you? Not to mention you’re also stealing from the people who ARE paying their subscription because it’s them who helped finance those shows you’re watching. But like I said, if you are literally so broke that every single dollar you have goes to cover food and rent, I can sympathize, because man doesn’t live on bread alone. But if you have the money to spare and you just prefer to spend it on something else, you’re simply robbing Peter to pay Paul.

AVincentInSpace , 4 months ago (edited 4 months ago)

1. Question the science and believe what instead, genius? We are still in 2024 watching 2000 people die every week and all available data say that getting the shot has no adverse effects and reduces both the risk or contracting the disease, and the risk of death if you do, by over 90%. But Joe Rogan told them it had dead babies or microchips or whatever in it and they decide he knows better than big pharma. Even if these people don’t die from the disease they still run the risk of spreading it to someone who wasn’t eligible for the shot who might!
2. You seriously need to get your memory checked, dude. I’ve told you three times now and given you three different extremely valid reasons why I hate Trump supporters, and you’ve yet to address a single one of them, instead continuing to insist I hate them for no reason. If you’re talking about Democrats and Republicans in general, I’d’ve hoped you of all people would know better than to make sweeping generalizations like that, especially after you told me off for assuming you believed science didn’t work after you provided a list of reasons science didn’t work.
   2.1. If republicans cared about reducing the number if abortions, they’d advocate for contraception and comprehensive sex ed – the only things that have ever reliably lowered abortion rates – but those go against their religion, so they prefer to punish women who have sex at all, even in cases of rape, by forcing them to carry to term.
   2.2. As for why that’s bad, let’s do a little thought experiment. Suppose there’s a famous classical musician who got in a car crash, and the only way to save him is a new technique has been developed by which if someone is a perfect genetic match, their consciousness can live alongside a “donor” in the same body. This takes a serious toll on the donor’s body to support two lives until the procedure is reversed. Suppose you’re a perfect genetic match to this musician, and since you’re just some guy off the street and this guy is already famous, they saw fit to do this procedure without asking your consent. He’s got a concert coming up next week, and he’ll be going in your body. “Don’t worry,” the doctors say, “he’ll only be there for nine months. That’s when his tour ends, then he’ll be put up for adoption. You can keep him around till then, can’t you?” You’d be pretty pissed, right?
3. So by not paying for a thing that other people pay for, I am stealing from people who paid to have that thing and now have that thing? Those are some serious mental gymnastics. Also, after cancelling Infinity Train, I’m no longer willing to give Netflix the benefit of the doubt that they will use that money to produce new shows.

MacNCheezus , 4 months ago

1. If you still think the vaccine issue was only a matter of not believing the science, you are seriously mistaken. People were upset because Democrats were planning to force everyone to get the shot, regardless of risk factors, and despite it having been developed in record time and with a bunch of the usual safety procedures skipped. That’s not science, that’s forced participation in a scientific experiment, which, BTW, is a violation of the Geneva Convention. People were right to be upset about it regardless of whether it actually worked or not.
2. You’ve given a great illustration of the difference between Democrats and Republicans. Democrats hate Republicans because they’re Republicans, and then work their way backwards to rationalize their hatred by coming up with some silly thought experiment like you did. Meanwhile, Republicans don’t hate Democrats because they are Democrats, they hate them for what they do, but still secretly hope that one day they’ll realize the error of their ways. Meanwhile, the only secret hope Democrats have for Republicans is that they’ll all drop dead.
3. I’m sorry you’re a bit slow on the uptake, but I already explained it, I’m not going to repeat myself.

AVincentInSpace , 4 months ago

You’ve given a great illustration of the difference between Democrats and Republicans. Democrats hate Republicans because they’re Republicans, and then work their way backwards to rationalize their hatred by coming up with some silly thought experiment like you did. Meanwhile, Republicans don’t hate Democrats because they are Democrats, they hate them for what they do, but still secretly hope that one day they’ll realize the error of their ways.

I didn’t say Republicans. I said Trump supporters. I also gave a laundry list of specific grievances I had with nearly all members of the Republican party, and I thought it was implied that my hatred for them would go away once those grievances did.

Thank you though for this undeniable proof that you are not arguing in good faith. This discussion is over. Good day.

MacNCheezus , 4 months ago (edited 4 months ago)

Yeah, sure, not all Republicans support Trump, but I bet you that those who don’t support him are still majority pro-life, so for the sake of this argument, it doesn’t really make a huge difference.

So am I to understand that you would stop hating non-Trump supporting Republicans if they became Democrats, but you still want Trump supporters to drop dead?

Good day

And to you as well!

AVincentInSpace , 4 months ago

Correct. That’s no less reasonable than you stopping hating democrats if they become republicans, which you just said you did. As for why I hate Trump supporters, it is my responsibility as a US citizen to defend the US from fascism. Trump says he plans to be a “day-one dictator.” He quotes Mussolini. He is a fascist. So, by extension, is anyone trying to put him in office.

MacNCheezus , 4 months ago

And there goes another fake news hoax, fueled by blind hatred and deceptively written headlines.

What he actually said was that he would be a dictator ONLY on Day One (Source), but of course that didn’t stop many liberal websites from reporting as if he had said it differently.

Now do you see what I mean about trusting “the science”? It only takes one Google search to debunk your claim, yet you go and present it as fact because you want so desperately for it to be true that you only look at the evidence supporting your claim and don’t even attempt to disprove your hypothesis. The same thing happens with scientific research that’s paid to achieve a certain result.

wildginger , 5 months ago

Scientists do not question the concept of science. They challenge results of tests by performing new ones to replicate the proposed results.

I think maybe you need to retake some high school classes

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

No, and neither do people who question the results, which is, in fact, what most “anti-science” people do.

Skepticism is part of the scientific method. Blind faith is not.

wildginger , 5 months ago

There are a number of easy classes you can take online, where you will learn about neat things like “the water cycle” and “why is the sky blue?”

Try hard enough and you might even get a gold star from the teacher

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

So you’re saying the cure for bootlicking is becoming a teacher’s pet? Isn’t that just bootlicking with extra steps?

wildginger , 5 months ago

Im saying the cure for being a loser is to stop sluffing class, and maybe your grades will improve

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

No thanks. Nobody has ever become great from attending class.

wildginger , 5 months ago

Pfftt, ok bud. “Im not anti science! But no one ever became great by learning”

What a self own

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

What if I told you you don’t need to go to class to learn?

wildginger , 5 months ago

What if I told you that the vast majority of real science actually does require you to go to class to learn?

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

I would say you’re a bootlicking teacher’s pet.

wildginger , 5 months ago

Licking what boot? The boot of the concept of learning things other people know?

Let me guess. You think vaccines cause autism, right? Because mommy told you otherwise, and mommy scary?

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

Licking what boot? The boot of the concept of learning things other people know?

You can learn that from books, too. Or watching YouTube. Plenty of ways to learn that don’t require a classroom setting.

Let me guess. You think vaccines cause autism, right? Because mommy told you otherwise, and mommy scary?

Not as a rule, no. But I’m honestly very uninformed about this topic and currently don’t have a reason to change that.

Let me guess, you enjoy making wild assumptions about people based on minimal evidence and then have imaginary arguments in your head with them which you always win.

wildginger , 5 months ago

If you think youre learning a level of science to challenge published reports via youtube, I completely understand how you became such a luddite. Like. You understand the point of classes is to have someone who knows the subject weed out the trustworthy books and sources from the youtube links, right? Oh what am I saying. Of course you dont.

My guy, you quite literally said no one became great from attending class. Do I need to know any more about you? Youre practically bragging about how stupid you are.

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

I literally have a Master’s degree, so I’d say I’ve taken my fair share of classes for this lifetime. And I’m guessing you probably don’t have a PhD because in my experience, most people who make it that far have enough humility to understand just how little they understand.

Also, your insults still don’t impress me, but your overreliance on them speaks volumes about your own level of intelligence. Let me guess, your IQ is in the double digits.

wildginger , 5 months ago

Im literally barack obama, and my schooling got me to the white house, so…

And anyone with a degree should be well aware that no one has put stock in that old scam test of IQ for almost 3 decades. But please, mr class sluffer, tell me more about how smart your mommy says you are.

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

LMAO okay buddy. Can’t quit starting wars, eh? Old habits die hard I guess.

Also, for someone so ardently advocating for going to class you have a suspiciously large amount of free time on a Monday morning…

wildginger , 5 months ago

Because I have a big boy job, and when you get paid the big boy dollars you get to pick your hours. So my weekend is 3 days long.

How did I land that job again? Huh, must have been from watching youtube…

Fuckin embarassing you think this is a war loool

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

“Oooh, witness me, I have a job, I’m very important! I work all day to pay taxes and rent, but at least they don’t keep me on a short leash.”

Yeah, see, I knew you were a midwit.

BTW did you get one of these when you graduated?

https://inpic.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/main-2.jpg

epicsninja , 5 months ago

Teachers pet? What is this, high school?

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

If you think this sort of behavior stops when you get to college, I got news for you…

I’ve been a TA, I have personally witnessed it.

Facebones , 5 months ago

Hate to break it to you sunshine, going “nuh uh” at any science you don’t like cause it clashes with your world view you gained from religion or your Bigoted daddy?

That’s called blind faith.

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

Thanks for your opinion but I didn’t deny any science, all I said is I don’t fault people for questioning it.

Also, your insults are unnecessary and childish and don’t really help your argument. I’ve argued my case respectfully and without name-calling, and I suggest you do the same.

Facebones , 5 months ago

“I don’t have an argument so I’m going to deflect by saying I’M not a science denier I just spend my time defending science deniers. Also anyone who disagrees with me is a childish meanie 😭”

wildginger , 5 months ago

The guy thinks no one got anywhere from staying in school, I got odds on them being anti vax as well

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

“I don’t have an argument so I’m just gonna pretend you said something you didn’t and argue with that.”

saintshenanigans , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

Skepticism is the literal precursor to the scientific method, and that’s where you’re stopping. There is no science at the skepticism step.

You’re basically saying, “Gravity isn’t real because I don’t see proof.”

A real scientist would drop an apple, a feather, a bowling ball, and verify it.

MacNCheezus , 5 months ago

Skepticism is the literal precursor to the acientific method, and that’s where you’re stopping.

Good, so we agree on something then. No skepticism = no science.

You’re basically saying, “Gravity isn’t real because I don’t see proof.”

Strawman. I didn’t say that.

A real scientist would drop an apple, a feather, a bowling ball, and verify it.

Yes, and some of the people in the “anti-science” community ARE doing that. And the rest of them are conducting a self-experiment on what happens if you ignore all the science…

ulterno , 5 months ago

Scientists do not question the concept of science

Questioning the validity of science is precisely how science is done These are 2 different statements, pertaining to 2 different actions.

Both the statements are true… err… alright, maybe not the first one as much. You can question the concept of science (which, in a way, boils down to “Question everything”) and still be a scientist.

Questioning the validity of (other’s and your own previous) science is a part of the concept of science.

Questioning the concept of science is more of a philosophical matter and would be valid in a quest for better concepts.

The above two statements are not actually denying each other.

Zehzin , 5 months ago

Warner Brothers cancelling Infinity Train and Inside Job (and pulling the completed seasons from streaming services) because they wanted a tax write-off.

WHAT THE FUCK, as if the cancellation wasn’t bad enough, I only now learned they removed Infinity Train from streaming. Fuck you WB

LinyosT , 5 months ago

This is one of the reasons why piracy exists.

Ultragramps , 5 months ago

They also cancelled the completed film Coyote vs ACME with John Cena, for a tax write off. I’m surprised it hasn’t found its way to the seven seas.

Lord_ToRA , 5 months ago

I don’t know what this is referring to, but GoDaddy can suck an entire warehouse of cocks.

CoffeeJunkie , 5 months ago

Agreed, GoDaddy can suck an entire warehouse of cocks. It’s important you know the basic context, because in a weird way this can be considered history.

This is another Trump Derangement Syndrome type post. Remember when Trump got kicked off of Twitter & other social media platforms? Conservatives & Republicans said FINE, we’ll make our own social media platform! With blackjack! And hookers! Parler was born.

…but Amazon & I guess GoDaddy, too, decided after Parler was built that they wanted nothing to do with Parler. So they yanked out the infrastructure, the hosting & servers, that Parler was built on. Parler was unable to function. Liberals rejoiced & jeered, conservatives were understandably distraught.

Somehow Truth Social exists, via Mastodon & some weird-ass open source structure. Nobody cares about Truth Social, though.

Basically this post is mocking the Republicans, conservatives for feeble attempts to grassroots build an internet presence. And not having robust contingency plans in place, and owning every step of the process, to ensure it could not be disrupted or fucked with.

Lord_ToRA , 5 months ago

You lost me at “Trump Derangement Syndrome” which is a term only used to gaslight people who have legitimate issues with Trump.

drathvedro , 5 months ago

I would advice against hosting servers in Russia, though. Police raids on datacenters, where they literally rip servers out from the racks, are, unfortunately, a common occurence.

Aria , 5 months ago

I’m sure you can corroborate this with evidence.

drathvedro , 5 months ago

Sure

torrentfreak.com/vpn-provider-pia-exits-russia-se…

www-comnews-ru.translate.goog/content/38669?_x_tr…

…translate.goog/…/4016630-sotrudniki-mvd-iziali-s…

habr-com.translate.goog/ru/articles/87933/?

The info is a bit buried under the news of Ukraine’s police apparently raiding lots of data-center since 2014 (mofos got their own language but still post news in Russian, smh), but I’m pretty sure that rghost, rutracker, rutor, RAMP, zaycev and the likes were also raided this way at some point - the police just came to the data-center, out of the blue, and literally just ripped the servers out. There was also some drama with some major hosting I don’t quite remember the name of, where police got involved at some point, prevented the staff from entering and caused a massive outage back in the day, I’ll update if I remember which one was it.

Overall, though, there’s not as many sources as I expected. Feels like either my memory is giving up or I’ve travelled dimensions… or it’s just roskomnadzor being at it again. I’ll check with my sysadmin friends, who personally had to deal with those situations, to check what is up and why there’s so little coverage on this.

Aria , 5 months ago

This is good evidence. Thank you for finding and linking these. Though I’d still object to ‘common occurrence’ if there aren’t a lot more; the most recent one is still 8 years old and all the examples are for sure guilty of breaking laws while having properly registered offices with their own data centre – high profile targets. Rather than a scenario where my VPS might randomly go offline because I hosted Invidious or Lemmy on it.

drathvedro , 5 months ago

the most recent one is still 8 years old

That’s about the time they’ve figured what they’re really after - personal data. In 2015 they’ve expanded the 152-FZ(Russian GDPR) to force everyone who operates in Russian market to store all user data in Russia, and forced operators to provide it on request. Completely blocked linkedin as an example of non-compliance outcomes. They’ve also put a shit ton of spy-boxes everywhere that can inspect and block any traffic on the fly, so the need to physically confiscate servers is significantly reduced. Recently they’ve also started to force everyone to install their root certificate so that not even encryption is of help there. Yeah… should’ve mentioned all that in the first comment too

because I hosted Invidious or Lemmy on it

That could land you (or the person who paid for or owns the server) straight in jail

Aria , 5 months ago

This time I must say your evidence and reasoning is much weaker. I disagree strongly with how you interpret this. Demanding foreign companies keep data on your citizens in your country is a good thing. The alternative is foreign spy agencies and governments having control over it. The fact that they have laws requiring companies to dox users is a completely separate issue. It’s bad, but it’s in-line with many EU nations. The NY Times article is especially bad because the tool they’re talking about, whois, is included standard with Mac and Linux. It’s not scary spy software. Inspecting and blocking traffic on the fly isn’t supported by the article as far as I can tell. And finally, having someone’s root certificate does not at all stop you from encrypting data. It lets websites that have been verified by the issuer have a green check mark in Firefox. You likely have tens or hundreds of root certificates installed on your computer. You can still keep data hidden from their issuers. It doesn’t affect your ability to encrypt.

In the case of that last link. He did go to jail for 20 days, but on the other hand, running Tor did literally save him from prison. This isn’t from that article but looking up his name, it seems he was cleared of all charges a week after he got out of jail and the judge’s reasoning was that because of Tor there wasn’t undeniable evidence. He wasn’t asked to stop hosting Tor either. Not defending the Russian justice system allowing them to jail you with only probable cause and not an actual conviction, that’s still bad, but where I live, I would get convicted instead, which is worse. This case sounds like positive confirmation that if I rent a Russia VPS and use it for Tor, I’m not breaking any laws and don’t need to worry about regular downtime, which was the original premise.

drathvedro , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

The NY Times article is especially bad because the tool they’re talking about, whois, is included standard with Mac and Linux. It’s not scary spy software. Inspecting and blocking traffic on the fly isn’t supported by the article as far as I can tell

Sorry, the article is terrible but I couldn’t find better English articles. Here are couple of auto-translated articles with some technical details on said spy-boxes. I remember there was a great combined push of state-owned market majority ISP Rostelecom along with state’s truth agency Roskomnadzor to implement all of this, for the first it was to push out independent ISP’s who couldn’t afford any of it, and for latter to erase and block out any info that the government doesn’t like, e.g. protest movements. The pretense was that it was for protection against foreign threats and autonomous operation of Russian side of the internet in case of hostile actions from the west, which has a grain of sense - e.g. of the 13 root DNS servers, 10 are operated by US and the rest by it’s allies. But the fact that this was not a joint initiative with other countries who are not on good terms with the US, and that those tools were used to combat political opposition, tells that this was not at all the real reason for it.

In the case of that last link. He did go to jail for 20 days, but on the other hand, running Tor did literally save him from prison. This isn’t from that article but looking up his name, it seems he was cleared of all charges a week after he got out of jail and the judge’s reasoning was that because of Tor there wasn’t undeniable evidence

That’s a dangerous precedent though, that a person can be arrested and held for indefinite amount of time without any significant evidence - just based on IP address. And in Russia, the laws are often written backwards, like the religious people feelings law in response to pussy riot case, the veteran feelings law for Navalny, the meme laws… for everyone… and…

He wasn’t asked to stop hosting Tor either

the entire Tor network was outlawed in Russia, so it won’t work as a defense any further.

This case sounds like positive confirmation that if I rent a Russia VPS and use it for Tor, I’m not breaking any laws and don’t need to worry about regular downtime, which was the original premise.

If you are not located in Russia, and you are not a figure in Russian politics, you indeed have nothing to worry about, except for the downtime, and certain protocols and endpoints being unreachable… and having your business ruined, but I figure if you’re not planning on doing any if you don’t care about downtime.

Though, if you are a political figure, the advice would still be to not touch anything Russian even with a 10-foot pole

And finally, having someone’s root certificate does not at all stop you from encrypting data. It lets websites that have been verified by the issuer have a green check mark in Firefox. You likely have tens or hundreds of root certificates installed on your computer

This allows them to perform MITM attacks by connecting to the website on your behalf, decrypting it, then re-encrypting it with their own cert and you’d still get the checkmark. Do you ever click on it to see who issued the certificate? They can, and most definitely will use it to attack their political enemies. Currently, they’re still forcing users to install it by holding online payments hostage, but even if you don’t pay online, nothing stops them from forcing it on all outbound communications in the future.

Aria , 5 months ago

Here are couple of auto-translated articles with some technical details on said spy-boxes.

I found the technical exploration interesting, even if the translation I read might not have been completely accurate. But at least 8 years ago, they didn’t seem to have any ability to analyse and modify content, instead relying on a simple domain block-list. There’s domain blocking where I live too. I imagine it’s handled similarly on a technical level. Seems more of a concern for home users, I don’t think one of these boxes sitting outside a data-centre would affect you at all. Your hosted web application would have proper encryption and they’d only see the destination of one leg of the journey. Even for 8 years ago, this doesn’t really seem like a level of technical sophistication that trumps even non-rigorous general best practices.

That’s a dangerous precedent though, that a person can be arrested and held for indefinite amount of time without any significant evidence - just based on IP address.

Absolutely.

the entire Tor network was outlawed in Russia, so it won’t work as a defense any further.

This just says blocked, not outlawed. I also couldn’t find any other articles about Tor being outlawed. As long as it’s not illegal it’s no practical problem for me/you. According to this article, Tor and someone else is suing, which they wouldn’t do if they didn’t have a legal basis for operating. It even says it’s unconstitutional.

The decision violates the constitutional right to freely provide, receive and disseminate information and protect privacy.

Assuming that’s true, then that’s a pretty easy win for any data centre hosting my blackbox VPN-routed seedbox or whatever it would be.

you indeed have nothing to worry about, except for the downtime, and certain protocols and endpoints being unreachable

Yeah but I don’t feel you’ve demonstrated that at all. There were a few high profile raids, but they were decades ago. If my cheaper than average hosting has average downtime then I’m still getting a good deal. Based on what you’ve provided, it sounds like the anonymous computer in a cave scenario in the meme would go completely unnoticed by an averagely aggressive and averagely competent police state.

Though, if you are a political figure, the advice would still be to not touch anything Russian even with a 10-foot pole

assassination attempt to poison Sergei Skripal, a former Russian military officer and double agent for the British intelligence agencies

Come on. I’m not planning to spy on the Russian military for the MI6! That’s several levels of shady beyond ‘anti-establishment website’.

This allows them to perform MITM attacks by connecting to the website on your behalf, decrypting it, then re-encrypting it with their own cert and you’d still get the checkmark.

In theory that is true. And not particularly hard. But it’s not invisible, and so it would get discovered quickly. And it can also be mitigated with a VPN and not using the state’s DNS. Users of Russian e-banking are be susceptible to MITM, but my VPS isn’t, because I don’t have that certificate. And the Russian banking public isn’t being spied on because they’d burn the card when they use it. Is it being deployed to discretely and sparingly MITM-attack specific individuals? I mean maybe. But I think it’s being deployed so they can have a green check.

drathvedro , 5 months ago

relying on a simple domain block-list. There’s domain blocking where I live too. I imagine it’s handled similarly on a technical level

To block a domain, it requires looking at the HTTP headers, though. So the only ways to do this with HTTPS is by either somehow breaking SSL or blocking based on domain’s IP, which causes high collateral damage due to cohosting, especially if the infringing domain is behing clourflare or is on amazon/azure/google infra. Oh and you can’t just block whatever IP’s the DNS is responding with, they got burned by it already when someone intentionally got their domain into blocklist and made DNS server resolve to 127.0.0.1. If your place also does this and it has a working democratic and judicial systems, I would suggest starting to raise questions about it.

This just says blocked, not outlawed. I also couldn’t find any other articles about Tor being outlawed. As long as it’s not illegal it’s no practical problem for me/you. According to this article, Tor and someone else is suing, which they wouldn’t do if they didn’t have a legal basis for operating. It even says it’s unconstitutional.

You’re right. I’ve looked into it and it seems that the reasoning behind the ban isn’t that it allows anonymity but the fact that exit nodes don’t restrict access to blocked sites, which is not at all possible for Tor. So I imagine they will soon, if not already, start going after it using DPI methods like they do with VPN’s already.

Based on what you’ve provided, it sounds like the anonymous computer in a cave scenario in the meme would go completely unnoticed by an averagely aggressive and averagely competent police state.

Well, based on what this computer is actually doing, it’s going to get cut off from all communications the moment anyone in that police state notices it. If it’s just pirate stuff then it’ll happen fairly quickly based on the amount and the obscurity of the sites in the blocklist. If it’s political - the owner of the server will be called for questioning. They’ll throw some of the bullshit laws at them to stack up (Got camera on your phone? Spy equipment! $2000 fine + confiscation! Liked any racist meme at any point in time? bam, extremism, 6 years in prison!) possible fines and jail time, but it’s all just to coerce them into cooperation.

Come on. I’m not planning to spy on the Russian military for the MI6! That’s several levels of shady beyond ‘anti-establishment website’.

Who knows what you might want to do with that server in the cave. This was just to show that they can and do reach outside the country in some cases. It’s not just for spies, though, they tried to do the same with Navalny and Kara-Murza, and a bunch of other less prominent figures. Also note, that all of those are botched attempts. In case of success, there will be no signs of poisoning as those chemicals are designed to break down quickly and leave no traces.

It can also be mitigated with a VPN and not using the state’s DNS

True, if your VPN protocol of choice isn’t banned already. But then, renting a box in Russia just to break out of it using a VPN kind of defeats the whole purpose.

Overall, you put it fairly accurate at “averagely aggressive and averagely competent police state”, we’re just going back and forth over specific details, but the point is that if you’re dealing with anything in Russia, you’re basically dealing with said police state, and the more you get involved with it, the harder you’ll eventually get rolled over by it. That’s why I suggest not getting involved with it at all in the first place. Having said that, I myself have certain obligations to visit Russia at some point in the future and I honestly dread of that moment. Wish me luck, I guess, but do you happen to know any good “dead hand” kind of software?

Aria , 5 months ago

I’ve never needed dead hand software. I wipe my phone before going through airports but that’s it. If I needed it, my first instinct would be to write my own, because my use case would probably be pretty simple. I’m not sure. I think you’re vastly overstating the danger of travelling through Russia. Still, I’d wipe my phone (or leave it at home) like anywhere else of course. Always best to be cautions.

But then, renting a box in Russia just to break out of it using a VPN kind of defeats the whole purpose.

This is just kinda how I use everything. I mean I’m paying for the VPN anyway… But it doesn’t degrade performance for a seedbox. You connect to it and stream your files when you need them, it’s less hassle than if you download things to your own home. Doesn’t degrade performance for most private tasks to be honest.

If your place also does this and it has a working democratic and judicial systems, I would suggest starting to raise questions about it.

It absolutely does not. But even if it did, I think most countries in the EU have some form of internet censorship. Almost always left to the discretion of the ISPs when it comes to implementation. Your instance is in Estonia, so I checked, and Estonia blocks copyright infringement and gambling, and according to one source, as if this year, ‘Russian propaganda’.

drathvedro , 5 months ago

I think you’re vastly overstating the danger of travelling through Russia

Eh, a red passports in my pocket, along with a military id of same color say otherwise

But it doesn’t degrade performance for a seedbox. You connect to it and stream your files when you need them, it’s less hassle than if you download things to your own home. Doesn’t degrade performance for most private tasks to be honest.

Actually, this sounds like a one good use-case for VPS in Russia because I didn’t even know what a seedbox is. I have used transmission on a router solely for silent operation and only once encountered an ISP who limited bittorrent traffic, but then I just told them to fuck off and switched to a different one. It never crossed my mind that people might want a torrent box outside their country. Just use an encrypted connection to it, though, because who knows what the fuck is Russian(or your) government might be up to. Though I’d advice to consider one in Armenia, if possible. It’s close, but much more liberal and the internet speeds are just as good. Though computer part imports seem to be problematic in there so I’m not sure if there are any good providers.

Almost always left to the discretion of the ISPs when it comes to implementation

It’d be interesting to see how they actually implement this, as I couldn’t find much info. But the fact that this is passed down to ISP’s to implement and there are seemingly no strict rules gives a hope that there might be some leeway between different providers, and ones that don’t use it as a pretense to infringe on your privacy. But it’s sad to see that they are, too, going political with this.

Aria , 5 months ago

Eh, a red passports in my pocket, along with a military id of same color say otherwise

Then you know better than me.

Though I’d advice to consider one in Armenia, if possible. It’s close, but much more liberal and the internet speeds are just as good. Though computer part imports seem to be problematic in there so I’m not sure if there are any good providers.

I don’t have a particular love for Russia for this type of thing, it just happens that a lot of low cost barely-professional providers are in Russia, and that Russia isn’t among the worst countries in terms of surveillance law and competence to enforce those laws. I’d happily rent from an Armenian provider, they’re just a little worse at SEO. Thanks for the tip.

ones that don’t use it as a pretense to infringe on your privacy.

My current ISP works with any router but there is a mandatory purchase of their partner’s router when you sign up. That router doesn’t host a configuration page, if you want to configure the SSID or password, you need to use their Windows/Android app. The Windows app installs a root certificate. I haven’t done that, and I think it’s just to facilitate regular updates rather than MITM decryption, but it could be either. ISPs have smart people (or people with skills in the right technical area), but they don’t have any financial incentive to use a clean solution sadly.

But it’s sad to see that they are, too, going political with this.

I’m not categorically against blocking illegal content, but it’s the surveillance I find really icky. Countries with laws about having to keep logs on users. Mandatory invisible/silent data-sharing with police. Gross.

LittleBorat2 , 5 months ago

That may all be correct but I don’t think that the Russian authorities are going to target me, a foreigner because I downloaded some movie. They will also not share data with law enforcement in my country in any effective way.

Exactly this can happen in some western countries. Russia is bad and all but they might be busier shutting down VPNs and censorship of their own people than with piracy.

They are probably doing a nonfantastic job with that too.

zrose , 5 months ago

Where would you recommend?

drathvedro , 5 months ago

IANAL, but, from a purely technical standpoint, Netherlands is a big hub of east-west Eurasian communications, so the latency, on average, is at least decent from everywhere on the continent. Germany seems to be popular option too, with lots of hosting companies just selling shares of Hetzner nodes. I myself host all my crap in the US because all the good stuff is over there. If you’re asking about the pirate stuff… I don’t know, maybe consider India? They seem to be struggling with cybercriminals over there

bier , 5 months ago

are you absolutely insane recommending hosting piracy in Germany those fuckers will take your house as Pfand

TheBig2023Meltdown , 5 months ago

Sweden? I know VPNs tend to like Sweden from a privacy standpoint

lud , 5 months ago

Depends on what you are hosting I guess. My website is hosted in Finland but there isn’t anything illegal on it.

pelikan , 5 months ago

It’s required to have literally zero knowledge of worldwide piracy and its current state to post or upvote such things.

Sanctus , 5 months ago

We are on the anti establishment platform my guy

kusukasaka281 , 5 months ago

Gab has their own server infrastructure.

TheBat , 5 months ago

Can we DDoS it?

Random_German_Name , 5 months ago

https://feddit.de/pictrs/image/d962eef2-fb36-476b-9a45-40342c62113a.jpeg

FrostyCaveman , 5 months ago

Apparently they’re working on Christian AI too lol

ooli , 5 months ago

I would say supporting a scammer criminal is pretty anti etablishment

1stTime4MeInMCU , 5 months ago

I demand the government force this private company to provide me free speech.

TimeSquirrel , 5 months ago

Shit that makes you go https://i.imgur.com/rITNPGY.jpg

uis , 5 months ago

Embed please.

https://i.imgur.com/rITNPGY.jpg

davel , 5 months ago

Socialist devs now

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/d8b8228f-5fc8-4dae-b288-976166aa83ff.jpeg

toasteecup , 5 months ago

Socialism by definition is not anti establishment. It’s anti current establishment but the philosophy is geared towards a bigger government “establishment”.

migo , 5 months ago

No, it is not. Socialism does not mean statism. Please feel free to read up on libertarian socialism, Anarcho syndicalism or even eco socialism. The Greens/EFA in europe lean towards libertarian socialism.

entropicdrift , 5 months ago

Libertarian socialist here: Say it again for the people at the back.

Valmond , 5 months ago

How does that work together? Like a socio democratic flavor?

entropicdrift , 5 months ago

Right now our government has been trending authoritarian, but our companies are full-blown dictatorships.

In my ideal world, we don’t have private ownership of businesses. Instead of banks we only have credit unions, instead of corporations providing services, we’d have worker’s co-ops. We wouldn’t even really have a stock market per-se, because everyone would own a share of every company.

The duty of our collective ventures is to benefit mankind, not to steal from the poor and give to the rich. Furthermore, our society should be optimized for the freedom of its people, not the freedom of its corporate masters nor the freedom of its military industrial complex.

Probably the most prominent libertarian socialist thinker is Noam Chomsky.

toasteecup , 5 months ago

I was 100% not aware if libertarian socialism. Definitely something to learn about. Thank you

force , 5 months ago

Depends which sense of “socialism” you mean, purely Marxist socialism perhaps, socialism in general no.

thedirtyknapkin , 5 months ago

I’m pretty sure that’s the difference between anti establishing and anti government. the “establishment” is the established power structure. technically fascists ARE anti establishment in most places. and that’s a very good thing.

DragonTypeWyvern , 5 months ago

Are they tho

Republicans are going mask off, Italy is run by fascists again, AfD is at 20%, Putin is invading neighbors and bankrolling white supremacists world wide, Israel’s engaging in open genocide, their neighbors wish they could do the same, the second largest party in Sweden was founded by Neo-Nazis…

TheBat , 5 months ago

Don’t forget India’s BJP/VHP/RSS ecosystem.

thedirtyknapkin , 5 months ago

that’s still only a very small handful of places, though i agree. it’s spreading.

OurToothbrush , 5 months ago

Fascists only pretend to be anti establishment their whole thing is preserving capitalism when it enters crisis.

thedirtyknapkin , 5 months ago

hmm, that feels a bit like splitting hairs. at that point we have to argue whether the establishment is capitalism, or the government. and that just seems like a pedantic argument about semantics that will accomplish nothing. point being, most fascists want to overthrow their current government.

OurToothbrush , 5 months ago

The government is part of the structure of capitalism though. It is an expression of the power of capital.

uis , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

You are confusing socialism with communism. Latter is anti-establishment.

davel , 5 months ago

You are confusing left-liberalism with socialism.

thanks_shakey_snake , 5 months ago

I think that’s the difference: Pirate Bay and Silkroad knew they were inherently anti-establishment, but it seems to me that Parler and Gab think of themselves as “alternative establishment” or something.

Pirate Bay was never trying to compete with Netflix or Steam-- it’s conceptually very different. But Parler very much wants (wanted?) to just be Twitter but with right-wing politics.

1stTime4MeInMCU , 5 months ago

That’s a great distinction, I’m gonna start stealing that.

Some people aren’t anti establishment, they are anti-not-my-establishment. You can’t call yourself anti establishment if you just don’t like the current one.

thanks_shakey_snake , 5 months ago

Totally. I’m not even sure how many do call themselves anti-establishment, but I do know that there’s lots of talk on the right about building a “second economy” and “alternative public square” and stuff like the Daily Wire trying to make movies, all as part of this “fine, I’ll open my own casino” kind of play. It’s very purposefully establisment-focused, just not the existing one.

JJROKCZ , 5 months ago

Parler and gab just want to be mask-off racist twitter/facebook. Nothing anti-establishment there at all.

Pirate Bay and Silk Road were knowingly breaking the law in nearly every nation on earth and trying to avoid capture doing so, both failed to do so by various degrees. This is anti-establishment as they are flagrantly disobeying copyright and narcotics laws at these two sites.

Pirate Bay is still operational, just not by the original owner. I don’t know about Silk Road as I have no interest in drugs

notasandwich1948 , 5 months ago

pretty sure silk road is gone irrc. I could be thinking of something else tho.

Hexasphertate , 5 months ago

Silk road is long gone but there are a plethora of other similar markets. Just like any other service in demand when one gets shutdown three more pop up in it’s place.

mindbleach , 5 months ago

It’s simpler than that: fascists lie.

robocall , 5 months ago

I’m not a dev. What’s a mirror? Sorry for being uncool.

agressivelyPassive , 5 months ago

Basically a copy of the infrastructure, so that you can switch over, if the first/main instance is lost (by a government, for example).

papalonian , 5 months ago

Hate when the government loses my servers :(

Appoxo , 5 months ago

Literally a server standing by and doing the same thing as the other by being a backup in case the 1st gets taken down.

tastysnacks , 5 months ago

When the fuck did that happen? We’re cool now?