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Comment on a YT video about Windows on ARM

Installing OS, 10 years ago:

Windows: click a couple of buttons enter username and password

Linux: Terminal hacking, downloading shell scripts from github

Installing OS today:

Linux: click a couple of buttons, enter username and password

Windows: Terminal hacking, downloading shell scripts from github.

Link to video: m.youtube.com/watch?v=qKRmYW1D0S0

Pissio ,

Windows is only for games; macOS and Linux are for work. Once they catch up, it will be bye-bye Windows.

JustARegularNerd ,

Maybe for home users. Working at an MSP, I can’t see small to medium sized businesses making any changes here anytime soon, especially those that use specialized software built only for Windows.

Pissio ,

In my experience, many business applications now run on the Web or are being upgraded to be. Where I work Windows pcs endure only for those who have to do technical drawing, most terminals are Ubuntu updated by ansible scripts and connected to an active directory domain running on Samba. The few PCs with Windows are slowly disappearing as hardware is upgraded ( medium-sized company with about sixty PCs ). There are also a couple of Mac’s used by in-house developers/IT.

A_Random_Idiot ,

been playin games on linux for a long ass time now, with minimal issue.

with almost no issue in the past 3-4 years.

Its caught up.

Pretty much any game short of ones that have invasive kernal DRM run without much issue.

Landless2029 ,

What’s your recommended Linux distro for a Windows gamer to try?

A_Random_Idiot ,

Nobara 39.

Its easy and quick to set up, easy to use, and has a lot of ancillary tools and stuff preinstalled to make getting into the gaming easier.

I’m not gonna say its the second coming of christ, or all sunshine and rainbows, so to be upfront and honest… Dualboot at first, if you can. Its, presumably, your first time using linux, so you will run into more roadblocks to start simply due to lack of knowledge and experience on how to navigate things, but you’ll get your baselines down quick and start getting into the windows-like usability and flow.

Landless2029 ,

This is why I ask around! Haven’t heard that suggestion yet

A_Random_Idiot ,

Nobaras kinda a new distro, but its based on Fedora (the 39 indicates its based on Fedora 39) which is well established.

I’ve been using it, and the previous version of 38, and I’ve had a great experience with it. It also has a very active discord full of kind people willing to help.

nickwitha_k ,

An extra suggestion is to put the /home mountpoint on a separate volume ( if you’re comfortable doing so). This will make reinstalls easy, should you have need

Landless2029 ,

Yeah I do this currently for my Windows installs. But Windows would freak out on OS updates and reinstalls.

I plan to redirect home on my next build

nickwitha_k ,

But Windows would freak out on OS updates and reinstalls

Sheesh! I’m glad I’ve been on Linux so long to have forgotten that. It just doesn’t care, as long as you have it in fstab.

CeeBee_Eh ,

My /home partition is the same one I setup almost 12 years ago. It’s been through multiple versions of Ubuntu, multiple Ubuntu reinstalls, a switch over to EndeavourOS, a reinstall of EndeavourOS, cloned to multiple drives as each one failed or was upgraded to a larger sized drive. But it’s the same exact /home data.

Smokeydope ,
@Smokeydope@lemmy.world avatar

Linux mint is my favorite os been running it many years now no issues with running games. Its a bulletproof OS esecially with timeshift snapshots SteamOS is specifically a gaming os developed by valve for the steam deck but you can installed it on any system . The key is proton which is a windows emulator comparability layer fine tuned by valves Dev team to get most games running on Linux.

snekmuffin ,

far as I’ve heard, Mint can be iffy fhen it comes to games, mostly because they use an outdated kernel. I can also recommend something like Endeavor if the gamer in question has any knack for tech, or Nobara, which is made specifically for gaming by GloriousEgg, maintainer of ProtonGE

Smokeydope ,
@Smokeydope@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks, havent heard of nobara before but it being made by the dude who maintains protob GE is interesting and I will check it out.

A_Random_Idiot ,

Yep, Nobara should be the default choice for a gaming focused distro due to GE, since he knows exactly what hes doing and whats needed.

henfredemars ,

I hear you about the kernel. You can install newer ones or follow the HWE line (as I do) which gives you 6.5 last time I checked.

phantomwise ,

Definitely Nobara, it’s a distro optimized for making games actually work. On other distros I always had some games that wouldn’t run, but never on Nobara. Zero hassle.

BCsven ,

Bazzite made for gaming, and isos tailored to hardware

iopq ,

I play games on Linux

shirro ,

Currently school holidays here and we have multiple machines running Steam on Linux all day playing a good variety of games. None of them are competitive online games that require a rootkit so we are just fortunate I guess that the household prefers co-op lan games, sims etc. I suspect these rootkits are about as effective as anti-doping in sports. Determined cheats still cheat so anyone installing malware to play those sorts of games is probably fooling themselves.

zarkanian ,
@zarkanian@sh.itjust.works avatar

Me too, but I just emulate consoles.

phoenixz ,

Games is mostly (say 90+95%) there. Windows won’t go bye bye though, MS ensured customers by making government’s and companies sign contracts that will be a bitch to get out of. Expect windows to be around for a long time.

Microsoft has shit developers, but they have great marketing people and lawyers, so many lawyers…

henfredemars ,

Don’t need to compete when users don’t have a choice.

It breeds complacency.

phoenixz ,

macOS should also go bye bye especially with the shitty hardware that require you to sign your soul and next born over to apple. Fuck their tactics.

Clbull ,

Games have largely caught up. Fifteen years ago, you couldn’t run anything other than shitty FOSS games or the occasional Platinum AppDB rated game like World of Warcraft on Linux, and even for the latter the install instructions were convoluted. With WoW, you had to manually copy the files from each CD, save them locally and then run the installer because otherwise the installer would shit the bed and fail halfway through Discs 2 or 3.

The final hurdle for gaming on Linux is anti-cheat and that’s going to be a mountain to overcome. Only two solutions (to my knowledge) currently have native Linux support and those are Easy Anti Cheat (EAC) and Valve Anti Cheat (VAC.) You’re not gonna get anything requiring Ring 0 access (like Vanguard) running on Linux anytime soon.

Adanisi ,
@Adanisi@lemmy.zip avatar

You’re not gonna get anything requiring Ring 0 access (like Vanguard) running on Linux anytime soon.

Good. Kernel mode anticheat is fucking malware. Anticheat for a game should never have the same power over the system as a driver, which needs those privileges to communicate with hardware.

CeeBee_Eh ,

Fifteen years ago, you couldn’t run anything other than shitty FOSS games or the occasional Platinum AppDB rated game like World of Warcraft on Linux, and even for the latter the install instructions were convoluted.

Hey! I was playing LOTRO just fine on Linux back then. It actually worked better on Linux than Windows back then too.

Varven ,
@Varven@lemmy.world avatar

Oh how the turn tables

Murdoc ,

It’s a topsy-turvy world.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

it’s a world-turvy topsy!

Got_Bent ,

So how would I go about installing Linux on my shitty $200 refurbished Dell laptop? Would it continue to support my USB docking station with mouse keyboard and three monitors? What about remoting into work?

I don’t otherwise particularly do anything on it. No gaming or any such thing.

deadbeef79000 ,
  1. Download image
  2. Flash to USB
  3. Reboot
  4. Follow instructions
dodos , (edited )

USB docking station should be supported (unless it’s one of those external battery ones that plug into the bottom of the laptop). Remoting into work is fine but depends on the setup. For example, openssh with rdp works fine, can’t vouch for other solutions but I’m sure you could get them working.

Edit: I have been informed that displaylink docks require additional software. I didn’t even know those were a thing so I don’t know how difficult it would be to setup.

bitchkat , (edited )

I had to manually install displaylink on Fedora in order to use my USB-C docking station. Its not included in the fedora repos. But it drives 4x1440p monitors

tom_was_taken ,

That’s true for any OS though. DisplayLink dock is software dock and must have proper drivers installed to work.

bitchkat ,

dodos is claiming that it should be supported by the distro (meaning work out of the box).

tom_was_taken ,

Well, hardware-designed dock station would work, sure. They don’t require any additional software. For example, for M1 MacBook Air with MacOS there are two options: HW docks would work out of the box, no software or tinkering needed. But you are limited with only one external display (Apple decided so). SW docks (DisplayLink) work great and give you multiple displays and stuff, but require drivers. And also after reboot you have to log in before dock can launch its software companion. Also, since it’s software, OS updates can cause malfunction and/or incompatibility. I expect situation be more or less the same with all OS.

dodos ,

I had no clue those were a thing, thanks for letting me know. Does the dock require additional software on windows as well?

Frays6142 ,

Yes. One question, what software does your company use to connect remotely?

Got_Bent ,

All I can see is that it’s an RDP extension

Type: remote desktop connection

Otherwise I didn’t see a product name in properties

Frays6142 ,

Chances are you’d be fine. Either using something like remina, or a web Citrix client.

drathvedro ,

Might have some trouble if it’s a typec dock and the monitors are connected to it. Laptop’s own outputs might also be wonky if there’s a hybrid gpu setup going on, but support for thosr has improved a ton lately. Mkb should work fine out of the box as long as it’s not some unified proprietary bullshit wireless kit with smarfridge integration.

Overall, I would suggest just ripping an image of ubuntu, or pop_os if you got nvidia card, boot off it, just close the installer to try live mode, and see for yourself if everything works. Takes like an hour to do, no installation required. You can even install software, except gpu drivers, as everything would be all wiped on reboot and gpu drivers need reboot, hence popos suggestion as it has them built-in. You can try remmina on it - it’s the most common remote control software, supports both rdp and vnc and a bunch of other obscure protocols.

FordBeeblebrox ,

I just tried to install Ubuntu on an old MacBook and after booting neither the keyboard nor trackpad work. CMD +R reset the whole thing to a working Mac so I’m still not sold

phoenixz ,

Yeah well I’m not sold on mac hardware, all bets are off as that is designed to be as FU to anything but Apple software. I’d say screw apple but they even managed to fubar screws just to be as consumer unfriendly as possible.

NegativeInf ,

Any time I had to install on my old MacBook pros, I had to refit or refind every install, kajigger all the whatzits, then pray that it would all work. And then be pissed off because I couldn’t access my journalled partition.

In a nutshell, fuck apple for their hardware lockdown.

SSJMarx ,

Linux is still a bit hit and miss, I say that using it from a Thinkpad which I was told would be a 100% sure thing but the trackpoint has never worked and the mouse randomly cuts out until I restart. It’s my daily driver tho cuz I find its brand of BS more tolerable than Windows or Apple’s.

FordBeeblebrox ,

I have a PC that I use for work and a couple old Mac laptops sitting around so I’d like to fool around with Linux, found a hundred articles on how easy it is but every time I try I literally can’t make the machine do anything. Maybe I just need a cheap usb keyboard

SSJMarx ,

One thing I do know is that Mac support is sketchy at the best of times. The comprehensive “Linux on Mac” project IIRC is Asahi Linux, so next time you want to try I would suggest using that distro specifically.

Acters ,

You tried to install a non apple approved software(being the entire OS) on a Mac system. Imagine how hard it is for linux developers to support this blackbox hardware configuration?

Try using something actually easier to program/use for running linux type OSes. I usually will suggest AMD.

If you need a strong graphics card on a laptop, I think those frameworks will be more than capable of offering that kind of flexibility. The potential of packing it up so that if you feel like the power-hungry gpu will take too much battery, then it can be flexible in allowing you to remove the gpu without thinking about a screwdriver

If you need ARM, then you should be mindful of the fact that the arm ecosystem is still quite new for pc users. There are not many software choices, but it does show some promise.

If you think you need Mac hardware, then you don’t need to go around throwing linux on it. MacOS is already Unix like. You are going to live with the fact that no one outside of apple will have proper hardware support at the OS level. Let alone driver support.

FordBeeblebrox ,

Heard and understood. I just wanted to mess around with a laptop collecting dust and Linux is all the rage these days. Don’t particularly need it for any purpose, just tinkering

Acters ,

Well, it seemed from your comment that you just expected this to work without tinkering. However, now you admit to be tinkering? This is a rather confusing story. When I’m tinkering, I’m exploring and expecting to run into edge cases or unsupported environments. Linux may be great, but it’s just a kernel with GNU on top to help build the larger OS. I believe the attitude towards linux is a bit misguided. It is a great tool, and its strengths mainly lie in the freedom of usage that allows for both fine-tune control and automatibility. I say windows and MacOS are strictly non automatable environments unless you venture into the developer side, and that will undoubtedly bring some with it some problems. As such, many systems that require the user to be more hands off and operate with high uptime will use Linux kernels. Being able to automate the process with minimal user input is essential in the performance and reliability of critical systems demand.

Again, I did not wish to be condemning your actions and rather alert you to the differing problems these tools are made to solve. MacOs and thereby its hardware was geared towards being an apple only product that is only properly supported by apple, and the problem it solves is to be a tool for rich and self-conscious individuals.

Windows was created to be a home and enterprise OS that can be used in almost any system that is quite an outstanding feat, but it really is because of the number of developers and users offer the ability for things to work. Mind you that even Windows was not made to be extremely automatable. yet there are tools being created to offer automating tasks, but many are closed source and tied to requiring funding. I even ran into some odd issues every once in a while.

Linux was expressly made to be a minimal system that offered high uptime and high automatibility that was free for everyone to contribute or use. This allows users and admins to set up their systems to be more hands-off when it came to tasks that were extremely time-consuming or continually have to be worked on without deadline while keeping costs low. It is just recently that Linux-based distributions are able to make use of features and packages that are geared to users who need to make manual tasks. Wayland is finally being more stable, driver support from large manufacturers, and even emulation of Windows APIs with use of proton/wine is getting better. Thus offering users the ability to do manual tasks and mix custom made automated scripts/tools into their environments.

Many see the hype and equate it to being able to use Linux systems like they did with the very much well funded manual systems that Windows and MacOS offered. Instead, Linux is just a tool and can be useful when it is needed.

frog_brawler ,

Well that was a mistake. Apple hardware is designed to run Apple OS.

shirro , (edited )

Apple, like Nvidia, are a hostile hardware platform. I have a lot of respect for the ingenuity of the people who invest time and energy to unlock closed hardware. That is the true foundation of the free software movement. I am far less sympathetic to people who support these vendors financially and then complain when things don’t work. Caveat emptor.

mrvictory1 OP ,

Lemme guess: You have a Mac with T2 chip. You need prebuilt ISOs for those Mac models. wiki.t2linux.org

FordBeeblebrox ,

A 2019 with an i5 and a 2012 with an i7. Admittedly I haven’t tinkered much with either but the keyboard and trackpad being completely unresponsive wasn’t a great first foray

mrvictory1 OP ,

The first one has T2. Input devices not working is a known issue, that’s why you need custom ISOs. How was your luck with the 2nd one? Older Macs usually run much better with Linux but WiFi and bootloader installation (efibootmgr specifically) may be janky.

FordBeeblebrox ,

Tbh I haven’t tried the older one, but thank you for the advice on the ISO

I’ve got enough ‘advice’ on this thread that I don’t even know which flavor to try and put on the Mac. As some have said it’s a waste of time even installing Linux on a Unix. I just like projects.

shirro ,

Windows 9x was extremely time consuming to install with multiple reboots and before that it was all config files. Out of the box 95 couldn’t play media, connect to the internet (thanks trumpet), even access a cd. Normies bought machines pre-installed and got help when the system shit itself. Before there were scripted alternatives large scale Windows deployments were all imaged because of the hours it took to set up a single machine swapping floppies and writing to spinning rust. You had to reboot numerous times and use third party drivers and apps for everything. I recently installed a disposable Win 10 to do a firmware upgrade and Microsoft have come a long way though having to disconnect the Internet to get a local login is very dark.

trolololol ,

Yep I don’t remember ever windows install being fast or smooth. And even Slackware was straightforward 20 year ago

rottingleaf ,

And even Slackware was straightforward 20 year ago

Still is.

WordBox ,

Windows 7 was if you ignore updates. Win10 was even more so in the early builds.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

Before there were scripted alternatives large scale Windows deployments were all imaged because of the hours it took to set up a single machine swapping floppies and writing to spinning rust.

My first internship was patching a ton of Win 98 systems and it involved walking up and down rows of cubicles waiting for the next step of the installation to get done and hit a couple keys

CeeBee_Eh ,

Before there were scripted alternatives large scale Windows deployments were all imaged because of the hours it took to set up a single machine swapping floppies and writing to spinning rust.

With Windows 7 I was making golden images to simplify deployments.

Even now for the one Windows 10 VM I need for a very specific thing, I couldn’t use it without installing AtlasOS (an extensive powershell script to cut out as much of the bloat as possible). Otherwise the system would consistently slow down and stop responding. It was basically unusable (it’s running on Proxmox on a considerably old server).

AlligatorBlizzard ,

It took me two hours from the moment I started popping my laptop case open to add a new SSD to first boot on Linux. And figuring out how to disable secure boot on Acer’s fancy ass BIOS was what took most of the time.

HoornseBakfiets ,

You can use Gnome Disks to do that with buttons instead of opening /etc/fstab

umbraroze ,

Back in 1997 I was like “Ooh, Debian is mildly easy to install (compared to Slackware). Just need to engage my brain a few times maybe.”

(The first Slackware guide I read in 1996 had an ominous warning about getting the ModeLines right in XFree86 or the monitor will catch fire. This, fortunately, was a little bit of exaggeration. Over/under refresh frequency protection was already a thing.)

Now? “Oh no I fucked up my password shit and can’t login. I’ll need 5 more minutes to completely reinstall this Raspberry Pi image. I should have engaged my brain!”

Shit, we’ve gotten to the point that your average desk jockey can probably install freaking FreeBSD on the first try. If that’s not a good sign I don’t know what is.

CeeBee_Eh ,

Recently I decided I no longer wanted LUKS encryption on my laptop because I don’t travel anymore. So I followed the steps to do an in-place drive decryption. It worked, but I had missed a step to update the bootloader. So I fired up a live distro, chrooted to the installed system and 2 minutes later I had a working system.

ILikeBoobies ,

I don’t know if the before has ever been true

jj4211 ,

Related, I predict Windows on ARM will be a massive failure, again.

Windows is Windows because a critical mass of their market is terrified of being vaguely incompatible with any software they use today. Wine will never give them enough confidence just like ARM emulation of x86 will never give them confidence.

Extra bizarre, from what I’ve seen the Windows devices vendors are treating the ARM variants as a premium model and charging more for them, despite having no real compelling story for the customers. You can either have an x86 offering that’s from all appearances just as overall capable and absolutely able to run your software today, on an ARM offering that is more expensive and maybe a bit less compatible, with maybe better battery life (either sincerely or at least a belief).

Mac is able to force the issue because the hardware and software all wanted to make ARM happen and forced it, but with Windows on ARM, only Qualcomm really cares, Microsoft and all the device vendors would prefer to hedge their bets, which in this case tie goes to the incumbent.

mrvictory1 OP ,

I believe this time Windows on ARM will make an Intel Arc-like launch. It won’t be a failure but it won’t capture a massive audience either. QC will keep developing chips and some Windows users will be able to daily drive ARM.

HexesofVexes ,

To be entirely unbiased here, this covers user friendly distros that pretty much blow windows away for “default experience”.

Windows has adware and scareware - more so it has config-cluster-fuckification (I believe this is the academic term for it?). This is where windows lost me - when it started bundling basic config options together to force you to relinquish your privacy. Now it’s “edit the registry or gtfo”…

ToucheGoodSir , (edited )

I don’t think Microsoft realizes how easily done mass deployment of Linux distros and foss software could be :| especially if done at scale, and having some mid-sized corporations backing it.

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