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Comment on a YT video about Windows on ARM

Installing OS, 10 years ago:

Windows: click a couple of buttons enter username and password

Linux: Terminal hacking, downloading shell scripts from github

Installing OS today:

Linux: click a couple of buttons, enter username and password

Windows: Terminal hacking, downloading shell scripts from github.

Link to video: m.youtube.com/watch?v=qKRmYW1D0S0

msage ,

Laughs in Gentoo

uis ,

Compiles in Gentoo

uis ,

Also horses in Gentoo

TrickDacy ,

I didn’t use a terminal to install Linux 20 years ago…

deegeese ,

25 years sounds about right

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

people here seem to think 20 years ago was the 90s…

HexesofVexes ,

To be entirely unbiased here, this covers user friendly distros that pretty much blow windows away for “default experience”.

Windows has adware and scareware - more so it has config-cluster-fuckification (I believe this is the academic term for it?). This is where windows lost me - when it started bundling basic config options together to force you to relinquish your privacy. Now it’s “edit the registry or gtfo”…

snekerpimp ,

Install MacOS X: get a bopping song from Röyksopp

Ferris ,

🎶you know we’re happy up here🎵

jj4211 ,

Related, I predict Windows on ARM will be a massive failure, again.

Windows is Windows because a critical mass of their market is terrified of being vaguely incompatible with any software they use today. Wine will never give them enough confidence just like ARM emulation of x86 will never give them confidence.

Extra bizarre, from what I’ve seen the Windows devices vendors are treating the ARM variants as a premium model and charging more for them, despite having no real compelling story for the customers. You can either have an x86 offering that’s from all appearances just as overall capable and absolutely able to run your software today, on an ARM offering that is more expensive and maybe a bit less compatible, with maybe better battery life (either sincerely or at least a belief).

Mac is able to force the issue because the hardware and software all wanted to make ARM happen and forced it, but with Windows on ARM, only Qualcomm really cares, Microsoft and all the device vendors would prefer to hedge their bets, which in this case tie goes to the incumbent.

mrvictory1 OP ,

I believe this time Windows on ARM will make an Intel Arc-like launch. It won’t be a failure but it won’t capture a massive audience either. QC will keep developing chips and some Windows users will be able to daily drive ARM.

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

Love Linux, but had to wipe it from my system due to frustrating incompatibilities with my NVidia setup. I will pick Mint back up when I get another PC though, with the goal being to keep a Windows setup only for gaming and nothing else.

sleepy ,

Dualbooting with nvidia atm. Using other drivers than the nvdia one in linux. Most things work except a few games. Highly recommend it

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

Word.

I ran a dual boot setup for about six weeks, but the performance issues and bugs just got too annoying over time.

I’m planning to get a new PC later this year for gaming. Just gonna wipe windows off this one and make it my “all other stuff” system when that time comes. :)

CileTheSane ,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

I waited to install Linux until I put in another drive to dual-boot, and proceeded to never go back to my windows install.
I was surprised at how easy it was to get things running, and any difficulties I had were mostly the result of me assuming things were more complicated than they are and not looking for simple solutions.

zod000 ,

That sucks, I guess I have been fortunate that my I haven’t had any major issues with either of my Nvidia cards using the proprietary drivers. Are you using the 4000 series cards? I haven’t tried them as my 3070 is still doing fine and has been since release.

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

It may be due in part to age. Partly why I’m replacing my laptop is that gaming hardware stayed pretty accessible for three years, but this year has leapt forward significantly and my laptop isn’t keeping up as well as it used to.

It’ll be a perfect PC for non-gaming though. :)

Avatar_of_Self ,

Just a heads up, if you use an AMD GPU, the drivers are built into the Linux kernel itself by AMD engineers (and others helping/supporting/contributing to the kernel like themselves). So you don’t even have drivers to install, unless you’re one of the 10 people that want to use AMD GPUs for Machine Learning. Then you’d do a quick install of AMD PRO (those are proprietary so that’s why they aren’t built into the kernel).

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

That’s good to know for the future. Thanks!

Mio ,

They differ a lot. I don’t understand why Microsoft does not want to improve on this situation. At minimum take all questions at once, or collect answers from existing installation. Maybe have some profiles of answers like wipe disk and privacy mode.

DieserTypMatthias , (edited )
@DieserTypMatthias@lemmy.ml avatar

privacy mode

Keep dreaming. Only Apple has privacy mode they call Lockdown mode. Linux distros have real lockdown mode.

Mio ,

I meant - privacy mode just means answer no tracking on all the questions. Yes, they will still turn those back on when the next Windows update happen, but that is beside the point.

stinerman ,
@stinerman@midwest.social avatar

Microsoft’s most important customers are businesses, who generally don’t deal with this (they have corporate images). Home users also generally don’t deal with this given they buy a computer that has already been configured.

Linux-based systems have always needed to be better because almost no one buys a computer with $DISTRO already installed and configured.

Mio ,

You are right, most don’t need it. Yet they still have the wizard guide, and with several new GUI questions implemented. So they are maintaining the setup wizard - just does not want to improve it. I am sure Microsoft have the money to improve on it and make more users happy(read not leaving Windows).

Windows have come to a point where they don’t need to improve much more. So they only focus on the stuff that might bring in extra money instead(ads and data harvesting). This will be their downfall if it does not align with what the users want. It will be interesting to see how the deal with ARM - problem to bring legacy programs. Yes, one day we will move to ARM on all new computers as they are just so much better. A good opportunity to rethink a lot and for Microsoft lose its big walls around Windows. Easier for competitors to come in.

Linux have also improved due to users always want a friendly GUI. And the users have more power to actually make a difference due to the nature of being open source. Automated installs here are still needed. A few sell OEM with Linux.

Just look at Apple, how big market share they have despite Microsoft have existed for so many years. 15% gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/…/worldwideThe competition have started.

Sabata11792 ,

I don’t understand why Microsoft does not want to improve on this situation.

Windows is the side hustle, They sell server space now.

Mio ,

Right, so lets shutdown Windows as it does not bring in enough money.

I don’t think that would be a good idea, to let it rot away. It is a business that brings in money after all, and it keeps the users using Microsoft office(Office 365) and all their products. They need to keep it alive.

Sabata11792 ,

They can half ass it, stuff it with ads, rake in the income and not lose enough users to worry. They have a monopoly and can just keep milking users.

Mio ,

It works for a while but they will lose market share over time. The home users are mostly not locked in to anything. It is just them that might use their pc at home for work(they should use their work laptop for that). Nowadays most things are webbased. Console/Steamdeck/Android/Chromebooks exists. Microsoft even made Visual Studio Code for any OS so coders can use any OS. The need for Windows is shrinking as people development alternative software for other platforms. It just take time.

Sabata11792 ,

It works for a while but they will lose market share over time.

The average user thinks their having a spell cast on them if they hear Linux. People are too afraid to learn how to use Windows let alone switch.

Mio ,

I think many is afraid. It is unknown OS. No one likes change. Many thinks IT is hard. especially elder people. However:

  • There is to few places to even buy a computer with Linux on it.
  • No ads on TV or similar, nowhere to test, not a single .exe file to run and test it out
  • Works differently - need to relearn.

A kid does not have any problem with the above. This is why Steam Deck is selling. It is just fun to test something new with your friends and see what all the buttons do. Seen as cool. Any guess where this is going when they get adult?

Sabata11792 ,

The people able to figure out Linux will move over, but I don’t think a typical Windows user that goes on Facebook and uses Excel is going to understand or care enough to leave. They are use to being abused.

Mio ,

That will put sticks in the development. A lot of people think like you say.

ToucheGoodSir , (edited )

I don’t think Microsoft realizes how easily done mass deployment of Linux distros and foss software could be :| especially if done at scale, and having some mid-sized corporations backing it.

FordBeeblebrox ,

I just tried to install Ubuntu on an old MacBook and after booting neither the keyboard nor trackpad work. CMD +R reset the whole thing to a working Mac so I’m still not sold

phoenixz ,

Yeah well I’m not sold on mac hardware, all bets are off as that is designed to be as FU to anything but Apple software. I’d say screw apple but they even managed to fubar screws just to be as consumer unfriendly as possible.

NegativeInf ,

Any time I had to install on my old MacBook pros, I had to refit or refind every install, kajigger all the whatzits, then pray that it would all work. And then be pissed off because I couldn’t access my journalled partition.

In a nutshell, fuck apple for their hardware lockdown.

SSJMarx ,

Linux is still a bit hit and miss, I say that using it from a Thinkpad which I was told would be a 100% sure thing but the trackpoint has never worked and the mouse randomly cuts out until I restart. It’s my daily driver tho cuz I find its brand of BS more tolerable than Windows or Apple’s.

FordBeeblebrox ,

I have a PC that I use for work and a couple old Mac laptops sitting around so I’d like to fool around with Linux, found a hundred articles on how easy it is but every time I try I literally can’t make the machine do anything. Maybe I just need a cheap usb keyboard

SSJMarx ,

One thing I do know is that Mac support is sketchy at the best of times. The comprehensive “Linux on Mac” project IIRC is Asahi Linux, so next time you want to try I would suggest using that distro specifically.

Acters ,

You tried to install a non apple approved software(being the entire OS) on a Mac system. Imagine how hard it is for linux developers to support this blackbox hardware configuration?

Try using something actually easier to program/use for running linux type OSes. I usually will suggest AMD.

If you need a strong graphics card on a laptop, I think those frameworks will be more than capable of offering that kind of flexibility. The potential of packing it up so that if you feel like the power-hungry gpu will take too much battery, then it can be flexible in allowing you to remove the gpu without thinking about a screwdriver

If you need ARM, then you should be mindful of the fact that the arm ecosystem is still quite new for pc users. There are not many software choices, but it does show some promise.

If you think you need Mac hardware, then you don’t need to go around throwing linux on it. MacOS is already Unix like. You are going to live with the fact that no one outside of apple will have proper hardware support at the OS level. Let alone driver support.

FordBeeblebrox ,

Heard and understood. I just wanted to mess around with a laptop collecting dust and Linux is all the rage these days. Don’t particularly need it for any purpose, just tinkering

Acters ,

Well, it seemed from your comment that you just expected this to work without tinkering. However, now you admit to be tinkering? This is a rather confusing story. When I’m tinkering, I’m exploring and expecting to run into edge cases or unsupported environments. Linux may be great, but it’s just a kernel with GNU on top to help build the larger OS. I believe the attitude towards linux is a bit misguided. It is a great tool, and its strengths mainly lie in the freedom of usage that allows for both fine-tune control and automatibility. I say windows and MacOS are strictly non automatable environments unless you venture into the developer side, and that will undoubtedly bring some with it some problems. As such, many systems that require the user to be more hands off and operate with high uptime will use Linux kernels. Being able to automate the process with minimal user input is essential in the performance and reliability of critical systems demand.

Again, I did not wish to be condemning your actions and rather alert you to the differing problems these tools are made to solve. MacOs and thereby its hardware was geared towards being an apple only product that is only properly supported by apple, and the problem it solves is to be a tool for rich and self-conscious individuals.

Windows was created to be a home and enterprise OS that can be used in almost any system that is quite an outstanding feat, but it really is because of the number of developers and users offer the ability for things to work. Mind you that even Windows was not made to be extremely automatable. yet there are tools being created to offer automating tasks, but many are closed source and tied to requiring funding. I even ran into some odd issues every once in a while.

Linux was expressly made to be a minimal system that offered high uptime and high automatibility that was free for everyone to contribute or use. This allows users and admins to set up their systems to be more hands-off when it came to tasks that were extremely time-consuming or continually have to be worked on without deadline while keeping costs low. It is just recently that Linux-based distributions are able to make use of features and packages that are geared to users who need to make manual tasks. Wayland is finally being more stable, driver support from large manufacturers, and even emulation of Windows APIs with use of proton/wine is getting better. Thus offering users the ability to do manual tasks and mix custom made automated scripts/tools into their environments.

Many see the hype and equate it to being able to use Linux systems like they did with the very much well funded manual systems that Windows and MacOS offered. Instead, Linux is just a tool and can be useful when it is needed.

frog_brawler ,

Well that was a mistake. Apple hardware is designed to run Apple OS.

shirro , (edited )

Apple, like Nvidia, are a hostile hardware platform. I have a lot of respect for the ingenuity of the people who invest time and energy to unlock closed hardware. That is the true foundation of the free software movement. I am far less sympathetic to people who support these vendors financially and then complain when things don’t work. Caveat emptor.

mrvictory1 OP ,

Lemme guess: You have a Mac with T2 chip. You need prebuilt ISOs for those Mac models. wiki.t2linux.org

FordBeeblebrox ,

A 2019 with an i5 and a 2012 with an i7. Admittedly I haven’t tinkered much with either but the keyboard and trackpad being completely unresponsive wasn’t a great first foray

mrvictory1 OP ,

The first one has T2. Input devices not working is a known issue, that’s why you need custom ISOs. How was your luck with the 2nd one? Older Macs usually run much better with Linux but WiFi and bootloader installation (efibootmgr specifically) may be janky.

FordBeeblebrox ,

Tbh I haven’t tried the older one, but thank you for the advice on the ISO

I’ve got enough ‘advice’ on this thread that I don’t even know which flavor to try and put on the Mac. As some have said it’s a waste of time even installing Linux on a Unix. I just like projects.

ILikeBoobies ,

I don’t know if the before has ever been true

Got_Bent ,

So how would I go about installing Linux on my shitty $200 refurbished Dell laptop? Would it continue to support my USB docking station with mouse keyboard and three monitors? What about remoting into work?

I don’t otherwise particularly do anything on it. No gaming or any such thing.

deadbeef79000 ,
  1. Download image
  2. Flash to USB
  3. Reboot
  4. Follow instructions
dodos , (edited )

USB docking station should be supported (unless it’s one of those external battery ones that plug into the bottom of the laptop). Remoting into work is fine but depends on the setup. For example, openssh with rdp works fine, can’t vouch for other solutions but I’m sure you could get them working.

Edit: I have been informed that displaylink docks require additional software. I didn’t even know those were a thing so I don’t know how difficult it would be to setup.

bitchkat , (edited )

I had to manually install displaylink on Fedora in order to use my USB-C docking station. Its not included in the fedora repos. But it drives 4x1440p monitors

tom_was_taken ,

That’s true for any OS though. DisplayLink dock is software dock and must have proper drivers installed to work.

bitchkat ,

dodos is claiming that it should be supported by the distro (meaning work out of the box).

tom_was_taken ,

Well, hardware-designed dock station would work, sure. They don’t require any additional software. For example, for M1 MacBook Air with MacOS there are two options: HW docks would work out of the box, no software or tinkering needed. But you are limited with only one external display (Apple decided so). SW docks (DisplayLink) work great and give you multiple displays and stuff, but require drivers. And also after reboot you have to log in before dock can launch its software companion. Also, since it’s software, OS updates can cause malfunction and/or incompatibility. I expect situation be more or less the same with all OS.

dodos ,

I had no clue those were a thing, thanks for letting me know. Does the dock require additional software on windows as well?

Frays6142 ,

Yes. One question, what software does your company use to connect remotely?

Got_Bent ,

All I can see is that it’s an RDP extension

Type: remote desktop connection

Otherwise I didn’t see a product name in properties

Frays6142 ,

Chances are you’d be fine. Either using something like remina, or a web Citrix client.

drathvedro ,

Might have some trouble if it’s a typec dock and the monitors are connected to it. Laptop’s own outputs might also be wonky if there’s a hybrid gpu setup going on, but support for thosr has improved a ton lately. Mkb should work fine out of the box as long as it’s not some unified proprietary bullshit wireless kit with smarfridge integration.

Overall, I would suggest just ripping an image of ubuntu, or pop_os if you got nvidia card, boot off it, just close the installer to try live mode, and see for yourself if everything works. Takes like an hour to do, no installation required. You can even install software, except gpu drivers, as everything would be all wiped on reboot and gpu drivers need reboot, hence popos suggestion as it has them built-in. You can try remmina on it - it’s the most common remote control software, supports both rdp and vnc and a bunch of other obscure protocols.

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