Why do people still recommend Thinkpads for Linux when there are Linux-oriented manufacturers now?

CorrodedCranium , 10 months ago

It comes down to price. You can buy used ThinkPads and replacement parts for them quite cheap a lot of the time.

It’s been a while since I’ve looked at devices from places like System 76 but if I recall correctly they are still over a thousand dollars when a used ThinkPad T440P for example can be found for around two hundred dollars.

IsoKiero , 10 months ago

I can confirm this with personal experience. Wife has T470 (if memory serves, something around that) for 100€. That was from previous work and they offered my old laptop for cheap, so it doesn’t really count as average, but not uncommon either at least around here. I got myself T495 a while ago for 299€ from “public” market and have been purchasing couple years old thinkpads for decades now. There’s plenty of those available, they work just fine for the workload we have for laptops (I got a separate desktop for more power hungry applications) and they’ve proven to be pretty reliable workhorses since the brand was owned by IBM.

Framework specially is really interesting approach and I’d love to test to their hardware, but they don’t have Finnish keyboard available just yet and I can get several used thinkpads for the price of one framework, so as long as I’m using my own hard earned money I rather spend it on a known brand where I already know what I’m getting into and spend considerably less money while doing so.

Also with linux thinkpads tend to work just fine or at least there’s documentation and howtos to get everything working.

pufferfischerpulver , 10 months ago

Where did you find a t495 for that price of you don’t mind me asking?

IsoKiero , 10 months ago

Taitonetti.fi. Local shop which refurbishes and sells previously leased computers, so their selection varies quite a bit, but I’ve been a happy customer for years and they have frequent sales for the ‘last of the batch’ computers where mine came as well. However I think they don’t ship to outside of Finland, so it might not be so helpful for you.

canis_majoris , 10 months ago

Framework laptops are interesting and I hope eventually the modularity allows the components to go down in price. Right now I was looking at a 16 (which all sold out within 3 hours of pre-order launch) but it comes out to easily over 3k CAD for a disassembled kit, skimping on RAM and an SSD.

AlmightySnoo , 10 months ago

yoo I didn’t know about used/refurbished Thinkpads being that cheap, I just checked and indeed you can find a T480 with 16GB of RAM for $248 on Amazon!

WrittenWeird , 10 months ago

T480 is solid as hell, had one as new in my last job, a bit heavier but very serviceable, would recommend.

promitheas , 10 months ago

Would also recommend the T480. Got mine for around €280 total (including shipping from ebay).

If youre looking definitely try them out

holland , 10 months ago

You can find them for much cheaper than that on eBay. I just got my wife a T490 for $125 on eBay. No SSD, but I had one sitting around.

Chinzon , 10 months ago

I also agree with this sentiment. I got a used t440p which I used for years in school before upgrading to the framework 13. I still love my old thinkpad, but its now my cheap in home media server. I would agree that old thinkpad are easy to find and a cheap (but still very useable and still to some extent repairable) option for work and school.

Siliconic , 10 months ago

T440P is cheap for a reason. Personally I don’t want a 6 pound laptop with a decade old CPU and a crappy TN screen. Something like a used T480 is reasonable though I guess

Autisticky , 10 months ago

I use an early 2010s Thinkpad, with Ubuntu, and I can play Minecraft pretty well on it. It’s great. I don’t often carry it places, it’s a desk laptop, but I don’t know of any other affordable laptop that would have such a long useful lifespan. If you know of any, please tell me, but my experiences has made me quite the Lenovo loyalist.

Fuckass , 10 months ago

Replacement parts are a bitch though. At least when it comes to batteries. The only battery I’ve seen with any positive reviews are Green Cell which is European, so shipping is absurd, and Duracell which no longer produces thinkpad batteries.

throws_lemy , 10 months ago

Those linux laptops are too expensive and they are not available in some countries

Used thinkpad is much cheaper

ikiru , 10 months ago

Maybe there’s a better place for this question, but how do you make sure a used laptop is safe? Or would removing Windows and installing Linux be enough?

I want to buy a laptop for Linux, and would buy a used one so that it’s cheaper but I have to admit I worry about it. I know one could be worried even about new laptops and what manufacturers could be up to, but I feel like the unknown arbitrariness of a used laptop gets to me.

MotoAsh , 10 months ago

Reinstalling the OS and formatting all drives is good enough to not walk in to viruses or spyware.

Beyond that, they’d have to install a chip somewhere to snoop on even the basics, like a usb keylogger. Some laptops have rescue partitions and services built in that can hide nasties or vulnerabilities, but those are generally only on enterprise-sourced equipment, and can usually be turned off in the BIOS anyways.

If you want a guarantee, though, you’ll have to take a laptop apart and confirm there’s nothing unexpected. OCD for a normie, but if you’re already paranoid…

ikiru , 10 months ago

Yeah, I am a bit paranoid because I know enough to be concerned but also lacking enough advanced technical skills to make me feel comfortable which makes me feel more paranoid. Haha

I do mostly worry about keyloggers or something that might hang around despite formatting and new OS. So I might just end up buying new to avoid the unending paranoia that I might project onto a used laptop.

Thanks though!

MotoAsh , 10 months ago

Could always buy from a trusted source, too. Like family or friends who are the original owners.

danielton , 10 months ago

You should be fine if you just wipe the drive and install the OS of your choice. That’ll get rid of whatever they may have installed on it.

CorrodedCranium , 10 months ago

You could look into a Libreboot compatible model. When buying a used laptop for Linux the big thing you need to be careful of is a locked BIOS

variants , 10 months ago

this is what Im going through right now haha, found a old laptop in our ewaste but the bios is locked, watching a few videos on how to reset the bios I have to take the whole thing apart to short out two pins, might be worth it but it is definitely a project for another day

CorrodedCranium , 10 months ago

Depending on the model you might want to take a look and see if something like coreboot is available while you’re at it

variants , 10 months ago

Whoa thank you I’ll have to check it out, looks like skulls would work for my w530

ikiru , 10 months ago

That is a good point about the locked BIOS that I hadn’t thought about. Thanks for bringing that up!

Pantherina , 10 months ago

No shit installing Linux on an Acer (even though the hardware is horrible and doesnt support Linux) was way easier than on my T495. Also the Uefi is sooo damn slow, I can only imagine what proprietary hell they put in there. The Acer Uefi is 2s, the Thinkpad Uefi is like 7s its crazy, slower than booting Linux.

lckdscl , 10 months ago

Because of better accessibility. How so?

Because not everyone has the money to afford these new and expensive laptops designed for a niche market. They are still enthusiast-grade products, the prices speak for themselves.

Because not everyone comes from Europe / the US, so it’s not easy to find these with affordable shipping.

Because these laptops are only normally offered new, which, for responsible and personal ownership, is excessive. There are thousands of used hardware lying around, why not put some life back into them instead?

It comes down to price, availability and ethical concerns. Unless money doesn’t mean anything to you, why do you need a $1000 laptop when someone wants a device for higher education or personal casual use? The world doesn’t need more rampant marketing of niche, hyped-up tech. While a fully-FOSS system may be the ideal machine for every Linux enthusiast, we live in a material world with finite resources and chasing after some unicorn laptop is unsustainable.

marlowe221 , 10 months ago

I buy all my hardware, laptop and desktop parts, for these reasons.

Linssiili , 10 months ago

That’s good, stealing is wrong

library_napper , 10 months ago

Used*?

marlowe221 , 10 months ago

Hehe, yeah. Missed a word there!

eksb , 10 months ago

Because not one of those laptops have a TrackPoint style mouse.

boo , 10 months ago

You mean the nipple mouse?

hypelightfly , 10 months ago

Could be worse.
https://xkcd.com/243/

AZERTY , 10 months ago

I always called it a nub. I haven’t used one as an adult but I could definitely see myself calling it the clit mouse.

M0oP0o , 10 months ago

Nub is correct, also nubs are best laptop mouse once you get to know them.

Edit, Lenovo now calls them “Caps” and that is lame.

TheButtonJustSpins , 10 months ago

What makes them the best? I find them very difficult to use effectively.

M0oP0o , 10 months ago

A few benefits:

• You turn off the touch pad and then you can type without hitting the mouse
• Using the laptop in awkward positions (crammed behind a rack for example) is a lot easier
• Minimal movement needed to use, not going to yeet a coffee over.
• Once you get the hang of them they seem more responsive then a touch pad and a bit more precise (opinion I know)

agent_flounder , 10 months ago

Same. I had a couple of Thinkpads ages ago and just couldn’t get used to it. Not enough control over acceleration and deceleration. I guess it is nice to not have to relocate your hand from the kbd all the time but…yeah.

Frederic , 10 months ago

In France I’ve always call this a clit or clito since they exist (80s? 90s?)

lord_ryvan , 10 months ago

In the Netherlands, I’ve always known it as “the clit”, the same goes for my dad who’s been in the IT since the 80s.

Swedneck , 10 months ago

the nippleclit

ikiru , 10 months ago

I love clits and nipples but I always found that nub so weird.

MagneticFusion , 10 months ago

deleted_by_author

derbolle , 10 months ago

I’m curious. why?

severien , 10 months ago

The biggest issue was the phone - Librem 5 - many customers waited 4 (or 5?) years and what they got was underwhelming. Purism originally provided “refund anytime” policy, but once customers started using that they lied they didn’t promise that (disproven with wayback machine). The only reliable way to get the money back is to sue them in small court. They also had some other shady stuff.

MojoMcJojo , 10 months ago

I know nothing, why is Purism a scam?

ProdigalFrog , 10 months ago

Louis Rossmann did a video exposing their behavior, which was confirmed by others in the purism subreddit. They’re acting super scummy and shady, leading people on for months and years about getting refunds and then ghosting them.

Also @ [email protected]

PipedLinkBot , 10 months ago

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aport , 10 months ago

A few years ago I bought a librem 13 and it was the biggest piece of trash I’ve ever had the displeasure of owning.

BitSound , 10 months ago

Scam is too strong of a word. I’ve got a Librem 5 and it works. I had to wait several years to get it, yeah, but that’s about what I expected. Can’t comment on their laptops, but I still doubt that scam is the right word.

Swedneck , 10 months ago

sham, maybe? like a scam but it’s just REALLY not worth it and it not actively malicious, just incompetent

dudewitbow , 10 months ago

Cause thinkpads are cheap and easy to come by

Source: i work in ewaste

WaterWaiver , 10 months ago

Exactly this. Second hand thinkpads are stupidly cheap – I’m currently typing on my $180AUD laptop. I never buy new.

pastermil , 10 months ago

Yes, exactly this. The alternatives would cost close to $1k as starter.

Decker108 , 10 months ago

Out of curiosity, do you ever rescue laptops from your work and use or resell them?

dudewitbow , 10 months ago

yes. Companies goal is to essentially take in e-waste and used stuff, sort through it and pull out decent laptops/desktops wipe(or destroy) hard drive based on instructions, and resell. The company that gives us the goods gets a cutback of what’s being sold. everything else that is junk is then sorted and recycled to their respective correct facilities. Gotta use the second R in the 3 R’s and the third for whatever is considered old. What’s considered old goods is still very desirable to another company, especially companies outside of the U.S where computers may be more expensive, especially when you’re trying to get them in bulk.

the work laptop I use is definitely used goods, in fact relevant to thread as it is a 8th gen Thinkpad T490.

miss_brainfart , 10 months ago

With everything I hear about good stuff going to waste, I highly enjoyed reading that.

Keep doing what you do, your workplace is cool

library_napper , 10 months ago

On what marketplace Are they sold? And can I buy a quantity of 1?

dudewitbow , 10 months ago

very rarely sell in quantities of one, but usually some of the end clients are resellers. If you’re ever like on Amazon and find refurbished dell desktops, or any laptop in general (including apple products), there’s a decent chance it came from an e-waste organization first before being bought by a reseller in bulk. There are some companies who “bling” old desktops and resell them in the market place.

Fuckass , 10 months ago

How much product do you move? I know there are enthusiasts buying old thinkpads, but I eidnt imagine it’s enough that a whole company can sell a bunch of them with ease

dudewitbow , 10 months ago

i cant give specific numbers of course, but in the hundreds/low thousands typically per order.

Venutianxspring , 10 months ago

They can be found cheap as shit. I got a great t480 for less than $150 and another $50 I upgraded my RAM and battery. It’s a really nice laptop and only cost me a couple hundred.

tekeous , 10 months ago

The only good system on that list is the framework and it’s $2800 for my ideal version.

Last year’s Thinkpad P-series goes for around $400 on eBay.

iopq , 10 months ago

You’re comparing ideal to “will get the job done” which is a big gap

The Thinkpad probably doesn’t have a high resolution high refresh screen, which is exactly why I’m shelling out $1400 for the Framework.

nyan , 10 months ago

To many of us that doesn’t matter. My secondary machine is a laptop from 2008 (not a Thinkpad, though), with a standard-for-the-time 1280x800 17" screen, and I’m fine with that, because I’d rather have a coarse 16:10 17" screen than a high-res 16:9 14-15" one. Occasional window shopping suggests that a new laptop with a screen of the same physical size as my old one would cost more than I really want to pay at the moment.

You obviously have different priorities. That’s fine—plenty of machines of different sorts to go around—but please try not to project your priorities onto others.

iopq , 10 months ago

If you’re happy with it, no reason to switch. I’m just saying you can’t compare different price range products

promitheas , 10 months ago

I think what hes trying to say (correct me if im wrong OP), is that not everyone needs that high end machine, so its not comparing apples to oranges as you seem to suggest. Its like comparing a Lamborghini to a regular albeit good sedan for the purpose of taking your kids to school, doing groceries, etc. If we ignore the obvious impracticalities of the Lambo for these jobs, sure its really cool, but if you can achieve the same task with the sedan (again ignoring that the Lambo might not allow you to conveniently achieve them and assuming practicality is equal so that the car analogy can fit in with the laptop question), why specifically go looking to get the Lambo?

Edit: meant to reply to [email protected]

iopq , 10 months ago

Thinkpad won’t play AAA games, it just can’t run them at a playable frame rate

You get more when you pay more

art , 10 months ago

In the US a lot of business use them. It’s not uncommon to see a pallet of “old” ThinkPads at the swapmeet selling for less than $200. We’re talking x1 Carbons. These machines have upgradable SSDs, Wifi, and battery. For less than $300 you can get a BEAST of a machine that runs Linux very very well.

nestEggParrot , 10 months ago

Wish i had access to such cheap hardware. Companies in my country use them till it gets junked and most refurbishers sell for maybe 20% less than brand new but with significanly reduced warranty.

circuitfarmer , 10 months ago

Cost.

Older Thinkpads remain extremely capable and (crucially) highly repairable. The T series in particular is also better built (read: more solid chassis) than many others, including some on this list.

It doesn’t make a lot of sense to support these alternatives given the absolute shock difference in cost. $300 bucks for a used T series gets you a lot from a customizability, repairability, and reliability standpoint.

eldavi , 10 months ago

It doesn’t make a lot of sense to support these alternatives given the absolute shock difference in cost. $300 bucks for a used T series gets you a lot from a customizability, repairability, and reliability standpoint.

1. bios updates leaves you at the mercy of the manufacturer;
2. not every bios and distro works w lenovo’s bios update utility;
3. and your battery life & performance has a big dependency on your bios so using something that it’s not designed to handle (eg anything that’s not windows) will result in less than optimal results. 3.5) same goes for hardware eg nvidia

circuitfarmer , 10 months ago

I’ve had 4-5 such systems running Linux and never experienced any issues with BIOS.

Obviously you shouldn’t get a model using nvidia if you want to run Linux on it (unless you are aware of the extra time it takes to set up and the other pitfalls). I do actually have a T440p with a 730m in it – and it’s fine, I just run the open-source driver.

xcxcb , 10 months ago

This is just fear mongering and wrong.

miss_brainfart , 10 months ago

If you’re a FOSS enthusiast, might as well buy one of the models that are supported by Libreboot

Double_A , 10 months ago

Cost and availability.

Most of those laptops cost over 1000€ if not even closer to 2000. And they don’t seem to ship to all countries.

While you can get a good used Thinkpad for 500€ everywhere in the world.

drwho , 10 months ago

And that’s with shipping included.

Cpo , 10 months ago

And the CPU + RAM upgrade.

Mane25 , 10 months ago

First of all I wouldn’t use a pre-installed OS (I would always wipe and install my own for security reasons).

Secondly: Thinkpads (at least when I bought mine, last year) let you buy them without an OS and don’t charge you for it.

Thirdly: the linked manufacturers above tend to be either US-centric and/or more expensive than Thinkpads.

space , 10 months ago

Because these are small shops that have limited availability outside North America, and are fairly expensive compared to Thinkpads which are widely used by corporations, and can be found pretty cheaply.

RegalPotoo , 10 months ago

Exactly this - none of those vendors will sell to me, but I can get a ThinkPad shipped from any of the major local retailers, or direct from Lenovo themselves. I’d love a Framework, and I’m trying to set it up so I can get one shipped to a friend in the UK who will be visiting next year but I’m sceptical that the timing will work out or that Framework will accept my credit card

space , 10 months ago

What I don’t like about buying things from abroad is that RMA-ing gets difficult and expensive.

ggnoredo , 10 months ago

None of them are available in my country

S_H_K , 10 months ago

I yearn for a starfighter and they send to my country but my government has an astronomical tax on anything priced over 200 dollars.

Tankiedesantski , 10 months ago

Even if they’ll sell one to you internationally, you’re probably shit out of luck if something breaks and needs to be fixed under warranty.

yoz , 10 months ago

Avoid purism at all costs. Watch Louis Rossman video on Purism mobile.