There have been multiple accounts created with the sole purpose of posting advertisement posts or replies containing unsolicited advertising.

Accounts which solely post advertisements, or persistently post them may be terminated.

earth_walker ,
@earth_walker@lemmy.world avatar

Look at the Steam Deck as an example:

  • Linux is preinstalled
  • Integrated hardware and software
  • Immutable OS that is very hard to bork
  • UI is Windows-like which is familiar to the target market
  • Good value for the price
  • Offered by a well-known and well-liked brand
  • Marketed and advertised to the target market

We need more Linux devices like this to gain market share.

MudMan ,

You got it. The moment you surface the idea that there are multiple distros or DEs you've missed the goal the thread is suggesting. Presintalled, customized software built for the hardware is the way to ease people in with zero tweaking, which is crucial for newcomers.

cRazi_man , (edited )

“People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware.”

The only way to make sure Linux works like that is to have a closed hardware environment. But it has to play nicely with other hardware and services (e.g. printers, webcams, etc + office documents, etc). It has taken a very long time for MacOS to get to this point, but people put up with Mac compromises because enough things worked smoothly.

I’ve just commented about this in another thread…but I’m pretty convinced that Linux is not close to being ready for normies.

jjjalljs ,

but I’m pretty convinced that Linux is not close to being ready for normies.

Yeah. I consider myself somewhat tech savvy (I do software development for work) and I had a really bad time installing mint on my desktop. I got it to work after a day but that was far more than a casually interested person would put up with.

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

Yeah exactly.

But what about casual usage like office? The option to choose OS preinstalled on the laptops or desktop would be beneficial.

But Microsoft holds its monopolistic grip.

olafurp , (edited )

System76 is doing that these days. They put extra hardware support for their Linux distro TuxedoOS and I’ve heard good things.

Edit: System76 make PopOS and Tuxedo computers make TuxedoOS

pnutzh4x0r ,
@pnutzh4x0r@lemmy.ndlug.org avatar

I think you meant Pop!_OS (is developed by System76). TuxedoOS is developed by Tuxedo Computers, which is a European Linux focused hardware company.

That said, the point stands… there are hardware companies making Linux supported devices.

olafurp ,

Sorry, I mixed those up. Thanks for the correction

0ops ,

Underlying kernel aside, I think that the Steamdeck’s SteamOS is an excellent example of how “easy to use” != “smaller feature-set”. I’ve heard countless times from apple dudes that the reason that their stuff allegedly “just works” is because of the lack of some functionally that if present would overwhelm the user. You know, as if ios and android don’t share fundamentally the same user interface principles. But they do have a point, a green user can be overwhelmed when presented with a huge feature set all at once. Yet, despite SteamOS literally having a full-blown desktop environment, the UI frankly is way less confusing than my Xbox. It just goes to show that it’s not about the number of features, it’s about how they’re presented. Power users don’t mind digging into a (well designed) settings menu to enable some advanced functionality, and keeping those advanced features and settings (with reasonable defaults) hidden around the corner behind an unlocked door helps the newbie get started with confidence.

Diplomjodler3 ,

To make Linux more appealing to the average person, you’d have to be able to buy a Linux PC at your local computer store. Most people can’t be bothered to install a new OS.

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

That’s also true but also impossible. Linux isn’t a for profit company.

Maeve ,

I don't see it as impossible. Like various brands are distributed with windows, various brands can be distributed with various Linux distros, customizable by distro and features, pre-order. These brands can work out a donation contract with distros.

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

Yes, but also companies say that Linux support is not worthit (gaining money and spending on the support) compared to - slapping barely working Windows port and call it a day.

For now Linux support is more like pleasant surprise than a official respected thing.

Maeve ,

I bet when demand crosses a certain threshold, support supply will quickly follow, gatekeepers bedamned.

Diplomjodler3 ,

If you sell a Linux machine to consumers, Microsoft will screw you over on Windows licencing. No current OEM will risk that.

Maeve ,

Contacts end and contracts begin. While it may be a good while, I think we are goingseeing large corporations like Microsoft enter autophagy.

Diplomjodler3 ,

What are you even talking about? Anyone can sell a PC with pre-installed Linux. There are already several companies today so just that.

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

Let me clarify myself

*It’s impossible to get big corporate guys attention so they ship Linux by default and it’s clearly tested. For now the Valve, System76, Framework and Tuxedo are exception.

Edit: Also I was keeping in mind corporatr entity behind OS.

  • Apple - MacOS
  • Microsoft - Windows
  • ? - Linux
milliams ,

Dell have at times sold laptops with Linux pre installed.

Andromxda ,
@Andromxda@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Can you buy a Dell laptop with Linux at a retail store?

zaph ,

Dell sells PC’s with Linux installed.

Andromxda ,
@Andromxda@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Not in retail stores though AFAIK

zaph ,

Correct. I was just touching on the big corporations point since they listed some online only retailers.

Diplomjodler3 ,

It would be a real leap forward, if Linux PCs were sold in big box stores. Which is why Microsoft will do anything they can to prevent that.

Diplomjodler3 ,

The big guys won’t sell Linux to consumers because of Microsoft’s anticompetitive practices. That’s the main thing that’s holding back Linux acceptance right now. But if some big player (e.g. Valve) would take the leap, things might get interesting.

Feathercrown ,

“It’s impossible. Let me list 4 exceptions though”

notagoblin ,

I’ve seen this type of question elsewhere. Why is it an issue?

Standardisation? Corporate Linux? Just like the big boys? Big fish eat little fish.

Careful what you ask for . .

bstix ,

Perhaps someone could make a business of it then.

Chromebooks sold well enough. Google made $30 billion on that in 2023.

Anyone willing to put together a physical Linux machine, market and support it could take a chunk of that.

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

For me it was always a niche that wasn’t taken full advantage of.

fuckwit_mcbumcrumble ,

Chromebooks never really made sense outside of schools and old people.

The OS is hyper limited to essentially just a web browser, and android apps (so just a web browser). Nobody wants to buy premium hardware to use with just Chrome. But at the same time it’s Chrome, so you really need at least a good chunk of RAM. So it really just limits you to the super light use cases, but those could realistically be replaced by a tablet.

The other day we saw an extremely odd device at malwart. They had a $270 laptop/tablet hybrid thing with a fairly nice OLED display, and a snapdragon CPU that should have been more that sufficient. But 128gb of EMMC storage, and 4 gigs of ram. Such wasted potential. It would make a nice RDP machine I guess.

Diplomjodler3 ,

No major OEM will do a consumer Linux PC because MS will punish them with Windows licence pricing. You’d have to be a newcomer that’s not beholden to MS. At the same time, you’d need a shitload of cash to start a hardware business with enough volume to get into big box stores. That’s why it hasn’t happened yet

gravitas_deficiency ,

lol wtf are you talking about? You can literally take $100 off the price of a computer just because it’s not bundled with a Winderps license - the price is straight up lower because the license cost is $0. You can order some models like this straight from Dell or Lenovo or whatever.

AbidanYre , (edited )

OEMs aren’t paying $100 per license. They’re also making deals with McAfee/Norton/whatever to package a bunch of extra crap on your windows laptop to lower the price further.

Mpeach45 ,
@Mpeach45@lemmy.world avatar

I’m a very casual Linux user and in my experience, I’ve NEVER had a problem with a documented solution that didn’t require going down a rabbit hole of other references.

Something like this: “To get the trackpad to work with Ubuntu, make sure you’ve installed the hergelbergelXX package.” (No link, find it on your own!)

Visit the HergelBergelXX page. To install Hergelbergel on Ubuntu, you must install the framisPortistan Package Manager. (No link!)

On the FramisPortistan GitHub readme, we discover it requires the JUJU3 database system to be installed. “JUJU3 may cause conflicts with installed USB devices under Ubuntu” JUJU2, which shipped with Ubuntu, is no longer supported. Also we recommend Archie&Jughead Linux over other distributions.

And this essentially never stops.

All of this is comparatively a happy result—I actually DID post a question on linuxnoobs about getting my trackpad to work with Ubuntu… and have not had a single reply. I have no idea how to find out how to make it work.

NiPfi ,

I had similar stories getting Wireless Networking to work on some devices before. Good thing is, there are drivers for most, if not all, default hardware interfaces directly in the kernel nowadays and if a device has any sort of popularity it will be supported before long if it isn’t out of the box.

Mpeach45 ,
@Mpeach45@lemmy.world avatar

I’m not talking about a long-ago problem. I’m talking about a current install of Ubuntu.

NiPfi ,

Yes, presumably on hardware that’s just a bit too old or rare. Might be unlucky as Linux compatibility isn’t high up on OEMs lists

Iapar ,

Hat a problem with WLAN on a laptop when I tried to install fedora. The solution was to install Linux mint with LAN\internet and let the driver manager figure it all out.

Maybe that helps.

refalo ,

you can’t because it’s explicitly against the whole point of having endless choices. when everyone works on something different, the quality spreads out to where it’s mostly just mediocre stuff across the board.

xkcd.com/927

hardware compatibility is also a huge problem. for everyone that says “it works fine for me” there are a thousand others for whom it does not.

BearOfaTime ,

I get downvoted to oblivion when I point out “just works” isn’t true.

You make a great point about endless choices.

No single UI, no single set of tools, those are massive barriers. And it’s why Windows became the de facto standard: single UI, consistent toolset.

ZeroHora ,
@ZeroHora@lemmy.ml avatar

And it’s why Windows became the de facto standard: single UI, consistent toolset.

No so true after win 7, there’s a bunch of legacy menu.

fuckwit_mcbumcrumble ,

It’s at least the same inconsistent toolset as everyone else. Windows 10? Ok go through this multi step process. 11? Ok this other slightly different process.

VS Linux you have 700 consistent toolsets, and 70000000 inconsistent toolsets.

GolfNovemberUniform ,
@GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml avatar

when everyone works on something different, the quality spreads out to where it’s mostly just mediocre stuff across the board.

I wouldn’t say that’s the only problem. We have pretty high quality stuff on Linux. The other problem is that choice always means differences between options which makes perfect integration hard or even impossible.

visor841 , (edited )

I feel like there’s also the point that on Mac OS a lot of stuff “just works” because everything else just doesn’t work at all. I have a number of things that just aren’t going to work at all on Mac. Linux is obviously much more permissive, which leads to a lot more kinda working stuff that just wouldn’t work at all on Mac.

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

Yeah but you can have default choices that are guarantee to work.

And yeah preinstalled checked hardware would be ideal.

gravitas_deficiency ,

Atomic OSes should be evangelized more aggressively to laypersons. IMO, they’re great for 3 specific use cases:

  • gaming (bazzite) - personally, I want my gaming box to “just work”
  • thin clients/low-powered laptops used as an entry point to your homelab or other remote systems - again, I like having at least one fairly bulletproof and super stable system to use as a human:homelab gateway/admin machine
  • non-techies. If the update fails, just roll back. Can’t remember if that’s generally an automated recovery process or not, but that sort of idiot-proofing is precisely what the general public needs in the context of Linux. Because there are a lot of idiots out there.
BlueSquid0741 ,

Absolutely. Look at Aeon. I turn it on and do what I need to do.

Later I might see a quick pop up that says system has been updated. It didn’t require intervention. It didn’t even tell me it was happening, it just informed me after the fact.

If anything broke, I would never know because on the next boot if something failed it just uses the previous snapshot to boot. As far as I am concerned the system is working just like it always has.

But even as recently as this week I see people saying: immutable? No don’t make it a bad experience for them! Just recommend Ubuntu for newcomers! >:/

wuphysics87 ,

Most people have had great answers coming from the company side of things. I’ll take it from the standpoint of individuals like us helping someone linux curious see the light, while still having the “just works” experience.

Do not give them any choices. None. Put them on your stable distro of choice for a new user, call whatever that is “Linux”, and be on your way.

But why? Isn’t that antithetical to everything we value? Yes and no. We value choice almost above anything else, but that doesn’t “just work” for most people. Which of those do you value more?

deadbeef79000 ,

No-one who buys a PC with windows preinstalled gets any choice at all… and had the preinstalled malware cme with it.

wuphysics87 ,

That’s true. Most are perfectly fine provided they have a computer ready to use. Straight out of the box. Immediately. The lack of choice itself is comforting. Everything moves forward. No lateral motion.

We must provide them that type of “thing that just works”. Constantly move forward. What is comfortable. What is familiar.

PseudoSpock ,
@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Simple, start teaching it in elementary school all the way up through high school. Apple did it long ago and got apple users out of those kids. Microsoft does it now, and now you have Windows users. Just need the computer education to be Linux centric from the start. It’s not that it’s different, it’s that it’s not what they grew up with and were taught.

possiblylinux127 ,

Windows hasn’t been in schools for a while. It is all Chrome OS

TCB13 ,
@TCB13@lemmy.world avatar

The way to get Linux more appealing is to get proprietary software makers, like Adobe, Microsoft (Office), you know the actual things people need to do their job, to make software for Linux. Steam Deck is a good example of this, it works because Steam ported the games to Linux…

possiblylinux127 ,

Looks at the current state of Microsoft and Adobe

I’m good.

Anyway you can’t really do much about a company not supporting Linux. Either find an alternative or don’t use Linux.

Xiisadaddy ,
@Xiisadaddy@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Honestly Linux does work pretty much just as well as MacOS if you run it on hardware thats super well supported and that tons of linux users use. MacOS has integration with its hardware because its all made by the same company. They only have to support a few models of computer.

If you installed Linux Mint today on a Thinkpad t480, and on some obscure weird laptop with rarely used hardware your gonna get 1 install that just works out of the box and your gonna get 1 that you have to hunt for drivers, and do tons of work on. Its just the nature of being able to use any hardware. Some will work better than others.

If you want an example of how to increase adoption you pick a line of computers thats of high quality and have them be supported by the community a ton. Then you convince the company that makes these computers to ship a version of them with linux pre-installed, and potentially help atleast with funding the development of whatever distro they use.

If your average user bought a laptop, opened it, turned it on, and it had linux on it and worked relatively well, they are never going to change it. Its not a normal thing to just change your OS most people don’t even know that you can do that. I gave my grandmother a linux mint laptop and she thinks its windows.

thingsiplay ,

The problem is, that no operating system “just works”. It also highly depend on what the person wants to achieve, and if there are any pre experience with computers or even relying on existing software or specific hardware. My recommendation is not to tell people the illusion of “just works” and be honest upfront. People should learn how it works, what to expect and if tradeoffs, time and resources are worth it.

Same is true for the other way too. Does Windows “just works”? Especially if someone switches from Linux to Windows.

Rather, we should teach the reasons to switch and encourage that decision. In example why it matters to have control over your system, rather than the company has control over it (MacOS and Windows) or why spying on you is bad (Windows). And encourage giving up something you are used to (and maybe paid). Sometimes its okay to use a program that is not as good as Photoshop. Sometimes its okay to give up playing a videogame you like (and maybe associated with friends playing that game with you). But most people are not ready to do it, because that is associated with lowering quality of life.

I switched in 2008 from Windows XP to Ubuntu. I know these struggles. And they are not over yet. This is an ongoing task between my brother and me too, and he was using the Steam Deck, but decided to go with Windows 11 with the recent build. It was almost there, but there is always a butt. I say, don’t tell people that “Linux just works”. No operating system “just works”.

ReversalHatchery ,

I hate to say this, but windows rarely breaks itself from updates. basic things like the desktop, audio and the lock screen is essentially never broken after an update.

yeah it may reset the audio settings and other such things, and I don’t know how do they manage to do that, but that’s relatively simple to revert.

probably it’s just thanks to old, battle tested code though. can’t wait for Linux desktop systems to reach that point

thingsiplay ,

Most common Linux distributions focused on stability do not randomly break with updates. That’s usually not an issue. Basic things like Desktop and audio or lock screen are also never broken after an update. But it depends on the Linux operating system you are using (there are thousands of Linux operating systems and they can vastly differ) and what hardware and habits you have. Windows biggest strength is that it gets the most support from developers and being basically only one distribution to target.

But calling Windows “battle tested code” is a bit of stretch. Windows is full of problems and I had my own issues due to updates of Windows (when I was using it in dual boot). Also in Linux I can update and do not boot until I want to boot. I can decide not to update. Overall I have more trust in Linux updates (even using on Archlinux) than Windows updates. Microsoft constantly fucks up updates. And they even introduce and install stuff you don’t know or want to.

An old story of mine buying Civilization 6 at launch on Windows was unplayable. After days and contacting support, turned out it was a Skype installer that was installed with a Windows update without my knowledge. And it was just an installer to install Skype, not even running. Removing it made my game Civilization 6 playable. I never had such an issue on Linux.

eee ,

I tried switching to Linux many years ago (forgot what distro). It was hell.

I don’t remember the specifics anymore, but I remember encountering issues almost every step of the way. Driver support, not being able to find the right buttons, etc. Searching for fixes usually led me down a rabbit hole of “oh cool this user on this forum said in another thread that I just need to install Gobbledegook… But what is it and how do I install it?” and of course a bunch of things require CLI which I’m not fantastic at. Unfortunately I gave up after a week.

Compared to that, Windows really “just works”. I have had my share of frustrations, but it’s usually with stuff that’s comparatively an edge case when compared to the problems I had with Linux. I don’t like that I’m giving money/data to a megacorp, but the price of that is convenience. I don’t churn my own butter, I don’t build my own car, I don’t want to think too much about how my OS works under the hood.

ReversalHatchery ,

Also, Linux does not auto-update itself, and that’s bad mostly when looking at the programs (like the web browser) that did that automatically, and here it can’t anymore.

I understand that most users don’t update their system and the utils they downloaded, but that’s essential for a web browser.

I was considering that I should just install Firefox as the fatpak for everyone, instead of the core package manager, for this and other reasons, but my users have so little memory in their old machines that it’s already barely necessary.

SapphironZA ,

I think it should be: “Software that is yours”

Overall, I think more focus should be put on consolidating similar projects.

Do we really need 6 different window managers that follow the same design logic?

Do we really need each major distro to have its own package manager?

How many image and PDF viewers do we need? How many music players?

Can we convince Ubuntu that no one wants snaps and they are wasting developer resources.

The freed up capacity should be focused on better windows app compatibility. Something akin to Valve’s push in gaming.

Drathro ,

Software-wise, it seems that the relatively fast adoption of flatpaks and other containerized formats somewhat solves the typical dependency hell that was so common in Linux just a few years back (and to some extent still is an issue today depending on your distro and use case). The hardware support side is a little harder. That’s going to be up to vendors to play nice with the Kernel team and/or introduce reasonable userland software that doesn’t break the golden rule. Until Linux gets more market share the latter isn’t likely to happen. A nice side benefit of the emergence of immutable and/or atomic distros is that users can play around and try things with much lower risk of bricking their systems, so I’d also consider that a step closer in the “it just works” department.

ulkesh ,
@ulkesh@beehaw.org avatar

Whether any OS could ever just work isn’t even going to solve the issue.

Getting OEMs to sell laptops and desktops in Best Buy (or the like) that have Linux installed and is properly supported — that is what will help solve the issue.

ReversalHatchery ,

having it just work is a necessary step to gett there

ulkesh ,
@ulkesh@beehaw.org avatar

When there exists an operating system that can satisfy that qualification, I’ll concede the point. Until then, OEM and retail support is what matters.

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

Maybe we are too used to Linux working on anything but with some imperfection.

And yet it again leads to oficial supported hardware.

mumblerfish ,

I have been forced to use mac now for like a year, and I don’t get the whole “just works” opinion of it. Like I have had so many issues with just basic stuff. Turning off mouse acceleration and the mouse still feels all slimy. Highest mouse speed is so slow and setting it higher requires some crazy tricks, which also does not work consistently through boots. It can’t wake up a lot of monitors, I have to turn them off and on manually. If it cannot connect to a monitor properly but tries, it like disables your keyboard for a few seconds while trying. Some items in the settings menu take a long time to load, as in if I reboot, log in, open settings, there is no mouse settings.

Extrasvhx9he ,

Kinda don’t think you can its one of the beauties of Linux, there’s so many different flavors of it. Best thing that would’ve helped me as a beginner would’ve been like a collection of all the wiki’s and basic knowledge in a single space instead of searching through different sites for a problem or terminal commands, which I bet exists but I just never looked too hard. Also documentation of common problems would’ve been big for me (especially for older devices) like drivers no longer being supported by kernels and solutions like using the open source version instead.

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • [email protected]
  • random
  • lifeLocal
  • goranko
  • All magazines
    •