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GustavoM ,
@GustavoM@lemmy.world avatar

By telling users to change their mindset, by showing em how control is important and how the “just werks” mentality imposed by Microsoft is more detrimental than anything.

lily33 ,

“Just works” is not a mentality imposed by Microsoft, and has nothing to do with loss of control. It’s simply (a consequence of) the idea that things which can be automated, should be. It is about good defaults, not lack of options.

deadbeef79000 ,

It was literally the tag line for Windows 98 I think!

The gag was that it just (barely) works.

earth_walker ,
@earth_walker@lemmy.world avatar

Look at the Steam Deck as an example:

  • Linux is preinstalled
  • Integrated hardware and software
  • Immutable OS that is very hard to bork
  • UI is Windows-like which is familiar to the target market
  • Good value for the price
  • Offered by a well-known and well-liked brand
  • Marketed and advertised to the target market

We need more Linux devices like this to gain market share.

MudMan ,

You got it. The moment you surface the idea that there are multiple distros or DEs you've missed the goal the thread is suggesting. Presintalled, customized software built for the hardware is the way to ease people in with zero tweaking, which is crucial for newcomers.

cRazi_man , (edited )

“People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware.”

The only way to make sure Linux works like that is to have a closed hardware environment. But it has to play nicely with other hardware and services (e.g. printers, webcams, etc + office documents, etc). It has taken a very long time for MacOS to get to this point, but people put up with Mac compromises because enough things worked smoothly.

I’ve just commented about this in another thread…but I’m pretty convinced that Linux is not close to being ready for normies.

jjjalljs ,

but I’m pretty convinced that Linux is not close to being ready for normies.

Yeah. I consider myself somewhat tech savvy (I do software development for work) and I had a really bad time installing mint on my desktop. I got it to work after a day but that was far more than a casually interested person would put up with.

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

Yeah exactly.

But what about casual usage like office? The option to choose OS preinstalled on the laptops or desktop would be beneficial.

But Microsoft holds its monopolistic grip.

olafurp , (edited )

System76 is doing that these days. They put extra hardware support for their Linux distro TuxedoOS and I’ve heard good things.

Edit: System76 make PopOS and Tuxedo computers make TuxedoOS

pnutzh4x0r ,
@pnutzh4x0r@lemmy.ndlug.org avatar

I think you meant Pop!_OS (is developed by System76). TuxedoOS is developed by Tuxedo Computers, which is a European Linux focused hardware company.

That said, the point stands… there are hardware companies making Linux supported devices.

olafurp ,

Sorry, I mixed those up. Thanks for the correction

0ops ,

Underlying kernel aside, I think that the Steamdeck’s SteamOS is an excellent example of how “easy to use” != “smaller feature-set”. I’ve heard countless times from apple dudes that the reason that their stuff allegedly “just works” is because of the lack of some functionally that if present would overwhelm the user. You know, as if ios and android don’t share fundamentally the same user interface principles. But they do have a point, a green user can be overwhelmed when presented with a huge feature set all at once. Yet, despite SteamOS literally having a full-blown desktop environment, the UI frankly is way less confusing than my Xbox. It just goes to show that it’s not about the number of features, it’s about how they’re presented. Power users don’t mind digging into a (well designed) settings menu to enable some advanced functionality, and keeping those advanced features and settings (with reasonable defaults) hidden around the corner behind an unlocked door helps the newbie get started with confidence.

possiblylinux127 , (edited )

Mac OS is not a “just works” experience. It is heavily tied to icloud and Apple services and everything is janky.

Maybe if Mac OS matured a bit I would consider using it but for now it is in a broken unusable state.

Telorand ,

If you appreciate autonomy, avoid MacOS. Their whole business model is to suck you into their technological ecosystem. The fact that their stuff works in any way outside of their expensive, walled garden is unintentional.

olympicyes ,

I was going to refute your comment but to be honest I use it largely because of those features. I’ve used MacOS for over 30 years and recently bought an AMD workstation for development work when my MacBook didn’t cut it anymore. It would be a good experiment to try an all local MacOS experience to see how it stacks up and I think it would probably be ok. You can install a lot of desktop apps using Brew to keep your system up to date. The main advantage that Mac has over Linux is that a lot of corporate software is available that otherwise can only be obtained on Windows. When I realized that windows in a VM on Linux wasn’t for me I more or less converted my Linux machine to a server for most use cases.

flork ,
@flork@lemy.lol avatar

Fedora Kinote just works.

bstix , (edited )

It would be nice if it was possible to simply go to a website, check off on the stuff you want and then get a full package.

I liked the idea of AV Linux, because it comes in a bundle of stuff that I need, but it also comes with a lot stuff that I don’t need, and I’m not sure the desktop is my choice. It also didn’t really work at the time I tried it.(Some years ago).

So… if I, a stupid user, could simply go to a website, check mark at the desktop, check off which office package, music apps, browser, etc.etc. and then get a download of that in one go where it’s all set-up and works, it would be a lot easier than having to go through the process of installing the OS and then installing/removing apps, and then making it work…

Like, let’s say I want a PC just for music creation, I should be able to download the the OS with the DAW of my choice, all the VSTis and potentially also the most common free sound banks. In one file.

If I wanted an office PC, I should be able to get the OS, the office suite of choice and all the misc. PDF tools, email client and whatnot of choice. All in one go.

Windows and macOS sort of came with everything before, but these days they’re just as annoying to set up as any Linux distribution. Linux as a whole could take advantage of that situation by offering a prepackaged but custom installation.

Of course it would also help if someone made a Linux installer for windows, so users didn’t have to use windows to create a bootable USB. I think this is the step that normal users hesitate on. I don’t know if it’s possible, but it ought to be possible from software to partion the disc and install dual boot or something.

SynopsisTantilize ,

Like Ninite but for distros. Man…that sounds so easy of a concept. Shocking that no one has made that.

monobot ,

It is very hard, time consuming and boring to iron out those finishing issues in any software product. You need team of people being paid for that.

When doing it for fun, I just go until it works and until it is fun. As soon as I come to those last 20% I never touch it anymore.

So ai doubt it will happen until more companies start paying decelopera to do it. But I don’t see the business model in that, so I doubt it will get better fast.

SapphironZA ,

I think it should be: “Software that is yours”

Overall, I think more focus should be put on consolidating similar projects.

Do we really need 6 different window managers that follow the same design logic?

Do we really need each major distro to have its own package manager?

How many image and PDF viewers do we need? How many music players?

Can we convince Ubuntu that no one wants snaps and they are wasting developer resources.

The freed up capacity should be focused on better windows app compatibility. Something akin to Valve’s push in gaming.

palarith ,

It does just work for normal users.

Normies use the installed os. Just install a browser and office suite, thats all the need and care about.

TCB13 ,
@TCB13@lemmy.world avatar

The way to get Linux more appealing is to get proprietary software makers, like Adobe, Microsoft (Office), you know the actual things people need to do their job, to make software for Linux. Steam Deck is a good example of this, it works because Steam ported the games to Linux…

possiblylinux127 ,

Looks at the current state of Microsoft and Adobe

I’m good.

Anyway you can’t really do much about a company not supporting Linux. Either find an alternative or don’t use Linux.

PseudoSpock ,
@PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Simple, start teaching it in elementary school all the way up through high school. Apple did it long ago and got apple users out of those kids. Microsoft does it now, and now you have Windows users. Just need the computer education to be Linux centric from the start. It’s not that it’s different, it’s that it’s not what they grew up with and were taught.

possiblylinux127 ,

Windows hasn’t been in schools for a while. It is all Chrome OS

wuphysics87 ,

Most people have had great answers coming from the company side of things. I’ll take it from the standpoint of individuals like us helping someone linux curious see the light, while still having the “just works” experience.

Do not give them any choices. None. Put them on your stable distro of choice for a new user, call whatever that is “Linux”, and be on your way.

But why? Isn’t that antithetical to everything we value? Yes and no. We value choice almost above anything else, but that doesn’t “just work” for most people. Which of those do you value more?

deadbeef79000 ,

No-one who buys a PC with windows preinstalled gets any choice at all… and had the preinstalled malware cme with it.

wuphysics87 ,

That’s true. Most are perfectly fine provided they have a computer ready to use. Straight out of the box. Immediately. The lack of choice itself is comforting. Everything moves forward. No lateral motion.

We must provide them that type of “thing that just works”. Constantly move forward. What is comfortable. What is familiar.

Mpeach45 ,
@Mpeach45@lemmy.world avatar

I’m a very casual Linux user and in my experience, I’ve NEVER had a problem with a documented solution that didn’t require going down a rabbit hole of other references.

Something like this: “To get the trackpad to work with Ubuntu, make sure you’ve installed the hergelbergelXX package.” (No link, find it on your own!)

Visit the HergelBergelXX page. To install Hergelbergel on Ubuntu, you must install the framisPortistan Package Manager. (No link!)

On the FramisPortistan GitHub readme, we discover it requires the JUJU3 database system to be installed. “JUJU3 may cause conflicts with installed USB devices under Ubuntu” JUJU2, which shipped with Ubuntu, is no longer supported. Also we recommend Archie&Jughead Linux over other distributions.

And this essentially never stops.

All of this is comparatively a happy result—I actually DID post a question on linuxnoobs about getting my trackpad to work with Ubuntu… and have not had a single reply. I have no idea how to find out how to make it work.

NiPfi ,

I had similar stories getting Wireless Networking to work on some devices before. Good thing is, there are drivers for most, if not all, default hardware interfaces directly in the kernel nowadays and if a device has any sort of popularity it will be supported before long if it isn’t out of the box.

Mpeach45 ,
@Mpeach45@lemmy.world avatar

I’m not talking about a long-ago problem. I’m talking about a current install of Ubuntu.

NiPfi ,

Yes, presumably on hardware that’s just a bit too old or rare. Might be unlucky as Linux compatibility isn’t high up on OEMs lists

Iapar ,

Hat a problem with WLAN on a laptop when I tried to install fedora. The solution was to install Linux mint with LAN\internet and let the driver manager figure it all out.

Maybe that helps.

mumblerfish ,

I have been forced to use mac now for like a year, and I don’t get the whole “just works” opinion of it. Like I have had so many issues with just basic stuff. Turning off mouse acceleration and the mouse still feels all slimy. Highest mouse speed is so slow and setting it higher requires some crazy tricks, which also does not work consistently through boots. It can’t wake up a lot of monitors, I have to turn them off and on manually. If it cannot connect to a monitor properly but tries, it like disables your keyboard for a few seconds while trying. Some items in the settings menu take a long time to load, as in if I reboot, log in, open settings, there is no mouse settings.

thingsiplay ,

The problem is, that no operating system “just works”. It also highly depend on what the person wants to achieve, and if there are any pre experience with computers or even relying on existing software or specific hardware. My recommendation is not to tell people the illusion of “just works” and be honest upfront. People should learn how it works, what to expect and if tradeoffs, time and resources are worth it.

Same is true for the other way too. Does Windows “just works”? Especially if someone switches from Linux to Windows.

Rather, we should teach the reasons to switch and encourage that decision. In example why it matters to have control over your system, rather than the company has control over it (MacOS and Windows) or why spying on you is bad (Windows). And encourage giving up something you are used to (and maybe paid). Sometimes its okay to use a program that is not as good as Photoshop. Sometimes its okay to give up playing a videogame you like (and maybe associated with friends playing that game with you). But most people are not ready to do it, because that is associated with lowering quality of life.

I switched in 2008 from Windows XP to Ubuntu. I know these struggles. And they are not over yet. This is an ongoing task between my brother and me too, and he was using the Steam Deck, but decided to go with Windows 11 with the recent build. It was almost there, but there is always a butt. I say, don’t tell people that “Linux just works”. No operating system “just works”.

ReversalHatchery ,

I hate to say this, but windows rarely breaks itself from updates. basic things like the desktop, audio and the lock screen is essentially never broken after an update.

yeah it may reset the audio settings and other such things, and I don’t know how do they manage to do that, but that’s relatively simple to revert.

probably it’s just thanks to old, battle tested code though. can’t wait for Linux desktop systems to reach that point

thingsiplay ,

Most common Linux distributions focused on stability do not randomly break with updates. That’s usually not an issue. Basic things like Desktop and audio or lock screen are also never broken after an update. But it depends on the Linux operating system you are using (there are thousands of Linux operating systems and they can vastly differ) and what hardware and habits you have. Windows biggest strength is that it gets the most support from developers and being basically only one distribution to target.

But calling Windows “battle tested code” is a bit of stretch. Windows is full of problems and I had my own issues due to updates of Windows (when I was using it in dual boot). Also in Linux I can update and do not boot until I want to boot. I can decide not to update. Overall I have more trust in Linux updates (even using on Archlinux) than Windows updates. Microsoft constantly fucks up updates. And they even introduce and install stuff you don’t know or want to.

An old story of mine buying Civilization 6 at launch on Windows was unplayable. After days and contacting support, turned out it was a Skype installer that was installed with a Windows update without my knowledge. And it was just an installer to install Skype, not even running. Removing it made my game Civilization 6 playable. I never had such an issue on Linux.

eee ,

I tried switching to Linux many years ago (forgot what distro). It was hell.

I don’t remember the specifics anymore, but I remember encountering issues almost every step of the way. Driver support, not being able to find the right buttons, etc. Searching for fixes usually led me down a rabbit hole of “oh cool this user on this forum said in another thread that I just need to install Gobbledegook… But what is it and how do I install it?” and of course a bunch of things require CLI which I’m not fantastic at. Unfortunately I gave up after a week.

Compared to that, Windows really “just works”. I have had my share of frustrations, but it’s usually with stuff that’s comparatively an edge case when compared to the problems I had with Linux. I don’t like that I’m giving money/data to a megacorp, but the price of that is convenience. I don’t churn my own butter, I don’t build my own car, I don’t want to think too much about how my OS works under the hood.

ReversalHatchery ,

Also, Linux does not auto-update itself, and that’s bad mostly when looking at the programs (like the web browser) that did that automatically, and here it can’t anymore.

I understand that most users don’t update their system and the utils they downloaded, but that’s essential for a web browser.

I was considering that I should just install Firefox as the fatpak for everyone, instead of the core package manager, for this and other reasons, but my users have so little memory in their old machines that it’s already barely necessary.

Extrasvhx9he ,

Kinda don’t think you can its one of the beauties of Linux, there’s so many different flavors of it. Best thing that would’ve helped me as a beginner would’ve been like a collection of all the wiki’s and basic knowledge in a single space instead of searching through different sites for a problem or terminal commands, which I bet exists but I just never looked too hard. Also documentation of common problems would’ve been big for me (especially for older devices) like drivers no longer being supported by kernels and solutions like using the open source version instead.

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