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jlow ,

MacOS being a bad example here since Apple only needs to make its OS work on a very small set of hardware that they control wheras Linux (and Windows, yes) need to work on probably hundreds of thousand if not millions of devices (including Macs 👌) with at least the same amount of peripherals combined in almost any imaginable way. That’s a completely different task.

krakenfury ,

Linux is a tool that big corporate entities have profited greatly from for many years, and will continue to. Same with BSD, Apache, Docker, MySQL, Postgres, SSH…

Valve, Sys76, Framework, etc. Are proving that using Linux to serve an end user market is also profitable, and are capable of supporting enterprise use-cases.

I understand that there may be specific problems to solve wrt improving adoptability, usability, compatibility, etc., but Linux is doing more than ok within the context of the FOSS ecosystem (and increasingly without).

Your thinking is slightly skewed, IMHO. Linux doesn’t have an inherent incentive to compete with MacOS or MS, and if it did, it would be subject to the same pressures that encourage bad behavior like spying on users, creating walled gardens, and so forth.

crimsonpoodle ,

But Linux is open source? So if hypothetically so distro adopted spying al la windows couldn’t people just change distros? tbh I also think the question is slightly confusing as I don’t understand why OP thinks Mac OS is not standardized but I digress.

krakenfury ,

Yeah sure, a distro could start spying on users. How easy it would be would depend on their distribution model, and how willing they are to violate the GPL.

earth_walker ,
@earth_walker@lemmy.world avatar

Look at the Steam Deck as an example:

  • Linux is preinstalled
  • Integrated hardware and software
  • Immutable OS that is very hard to bork
  • UI is Windows-like which is familiar to the target market
  • Good value for the price
  • Offered by a well-known and well-liked brand
  • Marketed and advertised to the target market

We need more Linux devices like this to gain market share.

MudMan ,

You got it. The moment you surface the idea that there are multiple distros or DEs you've missed the goal the thread is suggesting. Presintalled, customized software built for the hardware is the way to ease people in with zero tweaking, which is crucial for newcomers.

cRazi_man , (edited )

“People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware.”

The only way to make sure Linux works like that is to have a closed hardware environment. But it has to play nicely with other hardware and services (e.g. printers, webcams, etc + office documents, etc). It has taken a very long time for MacOS to get to this point, but people put up with Mac compromises because enough things worked smoothly.

I’ve just commented about this in another thread…but I’m pretty convinced that Linux is not close to being ready for normies.

jjjalljs ,

but I’m pretty convinced that Linux is not close to being ready for normies.

Yeah. I consider myself somewhat tech savvy (I do software development for work) and I had a really bad time installing mint on my desktop. I got it to work after a day but that was far more than a casually interested person would put up with.

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

Yeah exactly.

But what about casual usage like office? The option to choose OS preinstalled on the laptops or desktop would be beneficial.

But Microsoft holds its monopolistic grip.

olafurp , (edited )

System76 is doing that these days. They put extra hardware support for their Linux distro TuxedoOS and I’ve heard good things.

Edit: System76 make PopOS and Tuxedo computers make TuxedoOS

pnutzh4x0r ,
@pnutzh4x0r@lemmy.ndlug.org avatar

I think you meant Pop!_OS (is developed by System76). TuxedoOS is developed by Tuxedo Computers, which is a European Linux focused hardware company.

That said, the point stands… there are hardware companies making Linux supported devices.

olafurp ,

Sorry, I mixed those up. Thanks for the correction

refalo ,

you can’t because it’s explicitly against the whole point of having endless choices. when everyone works on something different, the quality spreads out to where it’s mostly just mediocre stuff across the board.

xkcd.com/927

hardware compatibility is also a huge problem. for everyone that says “it works fine for me” there are a thousand others for whom it does not.

BearOfaTime ,

I get downvoted to oblivion when I point out “just works” isn’t true.

You make a great point about endless choices.

No single UI, no single set of tools, those are massive barriers. And it’s why Windows became the de facto standard: single UI, consistent toolset.

ZeroHora ,
@ZeroHora@lemmy.ml avatar

And it’s why Windows became the de facto standard: single UI, consistent toolset.

No so true after win 7, there’s a bunch of legacy menu.

fuckwit_mcbumcrumble ,

It’s at least the same inconsistent toolset as everyone else. Windows 10? Ok go through this multi step process. 11? Ok this other slightly different process.

VS Linux you have 700 consistent toolsets, and 70000000 inconsistent toolsets.

GolfNovemberUniform ,
@GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml avatar

when everyone works on something different, the quality spreads out to where it’s mostly just mediocre stuff across the board.

I wouldn’t say that’s the only problem. We have pretty high quality stuff on Linux. The other problem is that choice always means differences between options which makes perfect integration hard or even impossible.

visor841 , (edited )

I feel like there’s also the point that on Mac OS a lot of stuff “just works” because everything else just doesn’t work at all. I have a number of things that just aren’t going to work at all on Mac. Linux is obviously much more permissive, which leads to a lot more kinda working stuff that just wouldn’t work at all on Mac.

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

Yeah but you can have default choices that are guarantee to work.

And yeah preinstalled checked hardware would be ideal.

Diplomjodler3 ,

To make Linux more appealing to the average person, you’d have to be able to buy a Linux PC at your local computer store. Most people can’t be bothered to install a new OS.

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

That’s also true but also impossible. Linux isn’t a for profit company.

Maeve ,

I don't see it as impossible. Like various brands are distributed with windows, various brands can be distributed with various Linux distros, customizable by distro and features, pre-order. These brands can work out a donation contract with distros.

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

Yes, but also companies say that Linux support is not worthit (gaining money and spending on the support) compared to - slapping barely working Windows port and call it a day.

For now Linux support is more like pleasant surprise than a official respected thing.

Maeve ,

I bet when demand crosses a certain threshold, support supply will quickly follow, gatekeepers bedamned.

Diplomjodler3 ,

If you sell a Linux machine to consumers, Microsoft will screw you over on Windows licencing. No current OEM will risk that.

Maeve ,

Contacts end and contracts begin. While it may be a good while, I think we are goingseeing large corporations like Microsoft enter autophagy.

Diplomjodler3 ,

What are you even talking about? Anyone can sell a PC with pre-installed Linux. There are already several companies today so just that.

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

Let me clarify myself

*It’s impossible to get big corporate guys attention so they ship Linux by default and it’s clearly tested. For now the Valve, System76, Framework and Tuxedo are exception.

Edit: Also I was keeping in mind corporatr entity behind OS.

  • Apple - MacOS
  • Microsoft - Windows
  • ? - Linux
milliams ,

Dell have at times sold laptops with Linux pre installed.

Andromxda ,
@Andromxda@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Can you buy a Dell laptop with Linux at a retail store?

zaph ,

Dell sells PC’s with Linux installed.

Andromxda ,
@Andromxda@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Not in retail stores though AFAIK

zaph ,

Correct. I was just touching on the big corporations point since they listed some online only retailers.

Diplomjodler3 ,

It would be a real leap forward, if Linux PCs were sold in big box stores. Which is why Microsoft will do anything they can to prevent that.

Diplomjodler3 ,

The big guys won’t sell Linux to consumers because of Microsoft’s anticompetitive practices. That’s the main thing that’s holding back Linux acceptance right now. But if some big player (e.g. Valve) would take the leap, things might get interesting.

Feathercrown ,

“It’s impossible. Let me list 4 exceptions though”

notagoblin ,

I’ve seen this type of question elsewhere. Why is it an issue?

Standardisation? Corporate Linux? Just like the big boys? Big fish eat little fish.

Careful what you ask for . .

bstix ,

Perhaps someone could make a business of it then.

Chromebooks sold well enough. Google made $30 billion on that in 2023.

Anyone willing to put together a physical Linux machine, market and support it could take a chunk of that.

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

For me it was always a niche that wasn’t taken full advantage of.

fuckwit_mcbumcrumble ,

Chromebooks never really made sense outside of schools and old people.

The OS is hyper limited to essentially just a web browser, and android apps (so just a web browser). Nobody wants to buy premium hardware to use with just Chrome. But at the same time it’s Chrome, so you really need at least a good chunk of RAM. So it really just limits you to the super light use cases, but those could realistically be replaced by a tablet.

The other day we saw an extremely odd device at malwart. They had a $270 laptop/tablet hybrid thing with a fairly nice OLED display, and a snapdragon CPU that should have been more that sufficient. But 128gb of EMMC storage, and 4 gigs of ram. Such wasted potential. It would make a nice RDP machine I guess.

Diplomjodler3 ,

No major OEM will do a consumer Linux PC because MS will punish them with Windows licence pricing. You’d have to be a newcomer that’s not beholden to MS. At the same time, you’d need a shitload of cash to start a hardware business with enough volume to get into big box stores. That’s why it hasn’t happened yet

gravitas_deficiency ,

lol wtf are you talking about? You can literally take $100 off the price of a computer just because it’s not bundled with a Winderps license - the price is straight up lower because the license cost is $0. You can order some models like this straight from Dell or Lenovo or whatever.

AbidanYre , (edited )

OEMs aren’t paying $100 per license. They’re also making deals with McAfee/Norton/whatever to package a bunch of extra crap on your windows laptop to lower the price further.

Mandy ,

Linux actually needs to just work first

ulkesh ,
@ulkesh@beehaw.org avatar

Whether any OS could ever just work isn’t even going to solve the issue.

Getting OEMs to sell laptops and desktops in Best Buy (or the like) that have Linux installed and is properly supported — that is what will help solve the issue.

ReversalHatchery ,

having it just work is a necessary step to gett there

ulkesh ,
@ulkesh@beehaw.org avatar

When there exists an operating system that can satisfy that qualification, I’ll concede the point. Until then, OEM and retail support is what matters.

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

Maybe we are too used to Linux working on anything but with some imperfection.

And yet it again leads to oficial supported hardware.

Xiisadaddy ,
@Xiisadaddy@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Honestly Linux does work pretty much just as well as MacOS if you run it on hardware thats super well supported and that tons of linux users use. MacOS has integration with its hardware because its all made by the same company. They only have to support a few models of computer.

If you installed Linux Mint today on a Thinkpad t480, and on some obscure weird laptop with rarely used hardware your gonna get 1 install that just works out of the box and your gonna get 1 that you have to hunt for drivers, and do tons of work on. Its just the nature of being able to use any hardware. Some will work better than others.

If you want an example of how to increase adoption you pick a line of computers thats of high quality and have them be supported by the community a ton. Then you convince the company that makes these computers to ship a version of them with linux pre-installed, and potentially help atleast with funding the development of whatever distro they use.

If your average user bought a laptop, opened it, turned it on, and it had linux on it and worked relatively well, they are never going to change it. Its not a normal thing to just change your OS most people don’t even know that you can do that. I gave my grandmother a linux mint laptop and she thinks its windows.

GolfNovemberUniform ,
@GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml avatar

lack of some kind of standardization

Standardization = monopoly risks. It’s not worth it in the first place.

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

Let’s say something like systemd standarization.

GolfNovemberUniform ,
@GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml avatar

Such stuff is almost perfectly standardized on Linux (and the risks are there too).

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

List me what is standardized on Linux.

GolfNovemberUniform , (edited )
@GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml avatar

I’m not that much of an expert but I know display protocols, init system and audio protocol (there are 2 but the new standard supports stuff made for the older one) are standardized.

Psyhackological OP ,
@Psyhackological@lemmy.ml avatar

They are getting closer to this but also I think those projects emerged from being old and unorganized so they want to do it decently.

Drathro ,

Software-wise, it seems that the relatively fast adoption of flatpaks and other containerized formats somewhat solves the typical dependency hell that was so common in Linux just a few years back (and to some extent still is an issue today depending on your distro and use case). The hardware support side is a little harder. That’s going to be up to vendors to play nice with the Kernel team and/or introduce reasonable userland software that doesn’t break the golden rule. Until Linux gets more market share the latter isn’t likely to happen. A nice side benefit of the emergence of immutable and/or atomic distros is that users can play around and try things with much lower risk of bricking their systems, so I’d also consider that a step closer in the “it just works” department.

ReversalHatchery ,

Automatic updates are essential. and unfortunately, it should not be an option to keep an old version of something, because through shared libraries it will hold back the entire system. fatpaks should be used for those programs.

Fortunately it’s getting there, like KDE is working on it too, but it’s still got a long way.

rsolva ,
@rsolva@lemmy.world avatar

Fedora has been “just working” for me for the last couple of years. It is my go to for older relatives for that very reason.

neidu2 , (edited )

By promoting the distros that have this as a goal, such as Mint.

I would suggest Ubuntu in this category, but… eww…

ItsComplicated ,

From a non techy perspective, having what is used and installed being secure is a big one. I am new to Linux Mint. Mostly user friendly until something gets corrupted or suddenly can not be verified.

Looking for why is not always simple, and there are some explanations/instructions easier to understand than others.

I preface most of my searches with Linux mint (whatever I am searching for) for dummies. This helps some.

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