But that’s not really a Desktop is it? If we’d count mobile device we’d also have to include Android and then the situation would look completely different.
Steam Deck is a desktop. It is exactly the same PC hardware and software you are using on your desktop PC. It runs the same games and is software compatible. Steam Deck is a desktop PC.
Android has a different hardware (not x86 compatible), is focused on phones, its eco system of software is not compatible with PC and in reverse does not run your PC software. Android based smartphones are not a PC.
Valid point to be honest, but the answer is probably more than you think. I have a PC and still used the Steam Deck to browse the web too, not at least to install stuff. Also searching something while playing is useful too. Its made to be docked to bigger screen as well.
While you are probably right, my point was its still a PC, because he compared it to Android. And why this is hugely different. His point was to exclude Steam Deck, because it is not a PC, just like we would exclude Android. This data from the stats probably does not make a difference if its a Steam Deck or not (nor can it tell it? because browsing is the same as on PC, its an Archlinux and regular browser after all). On the other side it can definitely tell if its Android and exclude it.
So regardless if you think people browse the web with Steam Deck or not, this data should not be able to tell the difference between most distributions and Steam Deck, as its just a normal PC with Firefox (or other web browser) from the point of the stats. Just my assumption.
So your definition for “desktop” is if it’s an x86 compatible architecture? Seems pretty random to me. Btw, there are x86 android device. IMO a desktop is something on the top of a desk to do typical “office work”. PCs, Macs, Laptops, etc. but calling a SteamDeck game console “Desktop” is pretty dishonest I think.
PC in the first place means x86 architecture. Desktop is the operating system, here a Linux desktop or Windows OS. Nothing random here. Steam Deck is a Desktop PC with form factor of a handheld. Just like any other Laptop is a Desktop PC in a notebook form factor. It runs, plays and uses the exact same hard and software as a Desktop PC. Calling Steam Deck PC not to be a Desktop is pretty dishonest. Also saying desktop PC must be on a desk for typical office work is random too.
Also this is all about stats. Don’t forget, this is not your opinion or my opinion. I am speaking from the stats perspective, as the Firefox browser (or any other browser) is just a Desktop PC from the perspective of the stats.
If you say I am pretty random and being dishonest, then first, you are discounting others opinions, secondly did not even understand the purpose of my reply. Maybe you should watch out your language next time before responding if you want further discussion. I hope my reply here made it crystal clear.
The names are pretty clear and are about form factor. Desktop is something on top of a desk. Laptop is something on top of your lap. Hand-held is something you hold in your hand.
The steam deck is a hand-held game console - doesn’t matter what OS is it uses. It’s true that most stat tracking sites count it as “desktop” but not because it’s a desktop computer but because the user agent looks similar to desktop user agents.
If I install Android on a tower PC it doesn’t randomly become a smartphone even though all browser trackers would register it as a smartphone.
And Valve using a “typical desktop OS” on their handheld console doesn’t magically turn it into a desktop PC.
The example with Android makes no sense as a argument in our discussion.
The steam deck is a hand-held game console - doesn’t matter what OS is it uses
Wrong. It does matter. Plus, it matters what software and what configuration it uses the moment it gets counted in the stats.
The discussion is not about what you try to tell. You can say what you want, it does not matter that the Steam Deck uses hardware that is PC and software that is a hybrid of Desktop and Gaming operating system. And when going to the web with a web browser, then the Steam Deck is in Desktop mode, and therefore seen as a Desktop PC. Not only act it like that, the functionality is a Desktop PC.
The Steam Deck has two modes if you forgot that, and we are talking about the Desktop PC mode. Which is what the stats are all about.
Desktop is a form factor not “software” and there are microwaves and refrigerators with “PC hardware” (in quotes, because it’s actually a pretty ill-defined term), but they still are not “Desktops” even is you install Fedora on your fridge.
That’s just a definition for you. For the stats it does not matter what form factor it has. For the software and operating system, the form factor has 0 meaning. We are talking about stats and I explained it multiple times why the Steam Deck is a desktop PC from the perspective of web browsing stats. But I will end the discussion here now, as we are running in circles. Have a good day.
Go to Google images and search for “Desktop”. What you see is Desktop machines amd setups and how I and the vast majority of the world use the word “Desktop”.
Now search for “handheld game console”. It’s very likely that one of the first few results is literally a SteamDeck.
Now back to the stats. As I already said. SteamDeck will be tracked as a Desktop because stat tracking sites just use Browser User Agents and try to detect what the device actually is, but that’s very hard if not right out impossible because clients (including the SteamDeck) intentionally (for privacy and compatibility reasons) lie about what they are all the time!
If you take your mobile browser and enable “Desktop site” or “Desktop mode” it will lie(!) and make the server think it’s a Desktop - even though it is really not. A smartphone doesn’t magically become a Desktop PC. If I browse the web with my typical mobile browser - every site will track my activity as smartphone. If I switch to Desktop mode most sites will track me as a Linux Desktop Machine. But my device has not changed.
So you are right that the SteamDeck is tracked as a Desktop PC. But that’s because the Server has has either no better category for the device or can’t determine what the device really is because it lies about what it is.
Stat tracking always had (and will have) two big issues (which can’t really be fixed).
Devices which lie about what they are (see link above) and the problem that they have to come up with some categories and there will always be some devices which fall between the categories (Think fridge, microwaves, sex toys, etc.).
If your SteamDeck is currently actually connected to a monitor a mouse and a keyboard than you are actually using it as a Desktop PC. But if you use it like most people - even though the SteamDeck lies about it - it’s not a Desktop, because the word “Desktop” really is about the form factor - it’s not just my definition. Give any of your friends a piece of paper and a pencil and ask them to draw a Desktop PC - I would actually be amazed if anybody in the world (even you! outside the context of this discussion) would draw anything even remotely resembling a Steam Deck.
Connect the Steam Deck to a compatible dock and you can quite easily use it as a desktop. At the end of the day, it’s still an x64 based PC that’s just handheld.
I’m not sure that’s really a good argument. I can connect an android smartphone to a monitor, keyboard and mouse and call it Desktop. It’s also just an arm64 or x64 based PC just handheld.
A Desktop PC IMHO is a device that is used for everyday “office” work and neither android smartphones nor steamdecks are that - but laptops for example are (IMHO)
It is. I use it as such regularly. Keyboard+mouse+screen = browsing firefox as usual. Works quite well. Libreoffice, okular, signal desktop… I’ve used worse computers in recent years, steamdeck desktop experience is better than many 4 to 5 year old cheap laptops with win10 or win11.
Source is the Steam hardware survey set to show Linux data only. He forgot to mention the statement is only true for Steam Gamers, not for all of Linux desktops outside of Steam.
no, the statistics are based on browser agents, very few steam deck users browse the Internet on their devices. it’s also only half the Linux devices on steam, not of all Linux desktops
It’s probably even higher than that. These stats are mostly based on website visits I believe. And many Linux users are also privacy-minded and might spoof their OS in the browser. I bet a large portion of the Unknown is actually Linux too.
It’s hard to tell, as there are so many things that influence it. A huge factor is selection bias, as only a small number of website embed StatCounter, and that’s very likely to not be a representative sample. I’d bet that the influence of that is magnitudes larger than of user agent spoofing.
Ladybird is extremely amazing project. Andreas is a good person, with great community around him. The only thing I didn’t like is the new logo - it is very meta-ish. Looks very corporative, and doesn’t really resemble browser :(
OP, it seems as if the fear mongering and misinformation may have reached you through your cautious disposition.
I’ve gone through every single comment found below your post and at times I’ve been dumbfounded and/or astonished by the ludicrous claims that are spouted.
FFS, someone even expressed a problem found on imperative systems… While Fedora Atomic can be made (relatively) declarative (i.e. the exact opposite of imperative) for over a year now.
I will leave you with two videos in which the recent conference talks by the very same people that work on Fedora Atomic can be found. Consider watching these if you’re interested to know what they’re actually currently working on. If you pay attention, you will even notice how they mention common misconceptions that have also been brought up here…
The only fair criticism that I’ve found is the required investment and effort to adjust due to the associated paradigm shift and learning curve. However, this is peanuts compared to Guix System or NixOS.
Okay, I appreciate the links. I’ve had a chance to go over both, and I think I get the gist:
rpm-ostree is a work in progress, and it will be depreciated and replaced with bootc + dnf
However, I’m still struggling to understand how it all works together. For example, I have a VPN client that is installed via a .run script, so it doesn’t work with ostree. If I wanted to apply this software to my system, I’d have to create a bootable container, then rebase to that. But my goal isn’t to create a new image, just to apply transient packages to the base Bazzite image, so my remaining questions are these (and it’s fine if you don’t know):
If I made a bootable container(file), would that derived image fall out of sync with the parent Bazzite project? Would I have to manually build a new container and rebase each time I wanted to check for updates? I feel like I’m on the cusp of seeing the big picture, but I’m not quite getting it, and maybe that’s because I haven’t worked at all with services like Podman and Docker.
Yo OP, this is me @poki from another account. I had intended to leave the Lemmyverse for a while, but had to come back earlier than intended when I read your comment 😅.
So, without further a due.
Okay, I appreciate the links. I’ve had a chance to go over both, and I think I get the gist:
Thank you for your time!
rpm-ostree is a work in progress, and it will be depreciated and replaced with bootc + dnf
What do you mean with “work in progress”? You’ve been using it relatively often in this thread (and IIRC even in others) when talking about Fedora Atomic and/or uBlue and its technologies. Like, do you consider dnf to be work in progress because dnf5 is around the corner?
I don’t recall any mention of deprecating rpm-ostree, though I might be wrong. But, yeah; it will definitely lose focus in favor of bootc + dnf.
For example, I have a VPN client that is installed via a .run script, so it doesn’t work with ostree. If I wanted to apply this software to my system, I’d have to create a bootable container, then rebase to that.
I’m not actually sure if it works out just like that as of right now. Creating your own image or bootable container is definitely a powerful tool that can help bypass some imposed limits; like e.g. populating files in /usr or baking in (current) rpm-ostree actions -some of which actually wouldn’t work otherwise (as of right now)- directly into the image. Finally, it allows one to move from an imperative to a declarative system. However, I’m not aware if it enables one to bake-in the installation of .run files. My only experience with .run files myself was with Davinci Resolve, but that’s notoriously difficult to install regardless. Thankfully, it’s a popular piece of software and thus avenues have been created by which one could install it on Fedora Atomic and related projects.
So, in short, I don’t see how creating your own bootable container would help you to bypass this.
But my goal isn’t to create a new image, just to apply transient packages to the base Bazzite image
Exactly.
If I made a bootable container(file), would that derived image fall out of sync with the parent Bazzite project?
Would I have to manually build a new container and rebase each time I wanted to check for updates?
By either of the two earlier mentioned means, the building is done automatically (on a daily basis) by GitHub. Furthermore, when you update, you just receive the latest image from your own GitHub repository in which your own image resides. Updates continue to be done automatically in the background, so you won’t even notice. Finally, if it wasn’t clear yet, you only have to rebase once.
I feel like I’m on the cusp of seeing the big picture, but I’m not quite getting it, and maybe that’s because I haven’t worked at all with services like Podman and Docker.
That’s fine. Please feel free to inquire if you so desire!
Alright, having said all of that, let’s get to the crux!
So, did you try the following methods when installing the .run file? If so, how did it go?
Simply double press or right-click then install (of course, after applying chmod +x).
Within a terminal with ./<name of .run file>.run
Within a terminal with ./<name of .run file>.run --appimage-extract and then interacting with the AppImage.
If all of the above have absolutely failed, I only see three ways going forward:
Creating your own Flatpak 😅.
(OR) Taking this to COPR 😅.
(OR) Succumb to Toolbx/Distrobox 😅. Like have you tried running the .run file within Toolbx/Distrobox? If so, how did it go?
EDIT: 😅. I had hoped you’d return with a reply soon~ish. But alas… Uhmm…, I’ll be off for a couple of days and will return only next week. Just wanted to let you know*. FYI, I’ll probs return with (yet) another account.
Sorry I didn’t get back sooner, but I made some progress.
What do you mean with “work in progress”?
Their words (second video, I think), and more in reference to how they are still working out how they haven’t yet covered all of the use cases (like maybe my needs can’t currently be met by rpm-ostree or bootc). rpm-ostree has functional limitations, and bootc is still being developed. Obviously, both are still useable and useful, and Universal Blue has been using them for quite a while. I may have been reading too much into it with the “depreciation” comment.
So, did you try the following methods when installing the .run file? If so, how did it go?
It can’t work on its own. Running with sh or making it executable runs the script, but it fails when it tries to write its icon and .desktop entry to /usr (it also doesn’t take an –appimage-extract argument). You can use sudo rpm-ostree usroverlay to create a temporary FS overlay for /usr, but it’s wiped on the next boot. Still, that allowed the installation to complete.
I discovered that it’s installing all of the necessary components to /opt, and they remain functional. I was able to manually run the daemon script required and get a WireGuard tunnel established in the client.
Now, I’m trying to get a .service module to work so it can run automatically as root on a reboot with systemd. So far, it’s giving me a 126 exit code, so I still haven’t figured out how to escalate its privileges automatically, but this is the most progress I’ve made to date.
Silverblue is an official Fedora edition, almost exact Fedora Workstation, but immutable. I use it. universal blue is a third-party project and their images are bloated with additional “features”: packages, drivers, etc. Bluefin contains Homebrew for example. It’s how they describe it, but I haven’t tried it to say more precise.
Oh, I see also by their screenshots, that Bluefin also spoils the UX of GNOME with custom extensions. So I will consider it the Manjaro (or Mint) of immutable distros.
uMatrix prevents me from loading this statcounter website. :-( Can’t lookup how they measure things. In the comments people assume the stats would be counted by just looking up the user agent, which is a naive approach. I don’t think agencies dedicated to stats are doing it this simple. They have way more possibilities to track and to look what browser you are using. The stats are more accurate than you probably think. They do not need to know the exact version of browser you are using, just which type and maybe what operating system you are on.
If a script for Windows does not work on Linux and fails, then they know you are not on Windows in example.
It’s still useful with all its functionality. Even if it does not get updates, it still blocks most stuff and I can enable or block stuff too. Plus the blocklists it uses are still updated, as they act independently from the main addon. There is no better alternative in my opinion. I use uMatrix + uBlock Origin.
Question if I update my server and it has the new SSH (patched) package. Is that enough or do I have to restart the server as well? How can I check if the old SSH is in use currently?
It sounds like it’s the kernel but whether it has anything to do with ssh, I really don’t know. Sometimes parts work together in surprising ways, as I learned with the recent sshd/systemd/xz exploit.
You might be fine and this was the most alarming exploit since it’s very inconvenient, but personally I’d restart just to be sure.
No - it’s the kernel image - the actual operating system, rather than a service that runs on top of it.
If you just want to restart your ssh service after updating the packages, then “systemctl restart sshd” is all that’s needed, although you should probably reboot whenever the package manager suggests as a general good habit.
The packages in most distros will also restart the server for you. Any existing SSH sessions will technically be running in vulnerable versions, but if I’m understanding the vulnerability correctly this isn’t a problem, as they won’t be trying to authenticate a user.
If you want to be sure, you can manually restart the ssh server yourself. On most distros sudo systemctl restart sshd should do it.
For anyone in RHEL / Fedora land (or using dnf somewhere else), try dnf needs-restarting to list executables that have mismatched files on disk vs memory. The -r flag will hint if a reboot is needed (due to things like kernel or glibc changes)
I just updated to the latest Thunderbird via flat pack this week and now when I click on mail to links Thunderbird says that it is already open and it can’t open the link.
This is a total bummer really because in reality it’s going to be a relatively long time until the next release. I might see if I can roll back to the previous version.
I have had to do some work on my windows pc and I hate it. I have been away from desktop for a while now and changed to linux for personal one. At work it is all G suite, which does work to its credit, but the windows OS and microsoft cloud documents suck so much. The look and feel is clunky, so clunky. Constantly refreshing and just being shit.
As a service outlook (microsoft mail) sucks, as a web service their page sucks andnisnpoorly laid out and optimised and the new desktop client is atrocious.
They made me change from hotmail outlook, created a hotmail folder for under the new outlook and now I dont get notification for that address on the outlook app. If something gets marked as spam that isnt, marking it not spam sends it to the outlook inbox regardless of intended destination. If I reply to a mail it prioritises outlook despite the mail being sent to hotmail. As a result I cant log into shared files that people gave access to one but not the other.
And as a user do I hate it too. It is too many times while I edit an email and click delete that is deletes the email instead… It seems if I click a word and get the spell window does the focus always change to the list of emails… And it also force a spell correction if I click space… I didn’t pick one of the options I just want to edit the word myself!!! And if I scrolldown to remove some parts of the email thread or just want to copy a part won’t it let me if I don’t click twice… and it jumps around…damn I hate it so much. Sorry that I replied to you with all these anger. But I really felt it when I saw yours and ops comment. I hope we one day will at least think it is an ok client to work with
All the different versions as well. Outlook web is decent, desktop is terrible. The Mac version seems to be closer to web, some problems I have are fine in one version of outlook and only appear in another. Why can’t the app just be a container for the web version?
1980s: Hey guise, computers are now cheap and small enough that you can run an entire system and all your programs on your own machine at home instead of having to dial in to the mainframe!
2010s: No, we're putting it all back on the servers, you get a thin client.
From a macro economic perspective, (and im not advocating for a conspiracy, just aggregate business interest) they’re dropping energy usage so they can pay less on their electricity bills.
So actually a double fu. get less so they can pay less rent, to provide lesser service.
Because rent seeking is the only tech bubble left.
In theory I guess it provides better security in some ways, but certainly not all over giving you hardware and a VPN. So there’s that. But yeah, it sucks.
I was having a lot of random crashes and weird errors on my Mint install, using the logs, I tracked it down to a SSD fault.
I really didn’t want to send it back, since I got it from Amazon and I’m in NZ… So after a bit of checking I found that the FW on the SSD was not the latest. Updated the FW, went from at least 1 crash per workday, to no crashes in the last 6 months.
No, mull is a fork of Firefox meant for android and developed by the divestOS team, while mullvad is a completely different fork, only for desktop atm and developed by mullvad (the VPN company)
they both focus on privacy and integrate Tor patches and modify some configs to better resist fingerprinting, but mullvad browser goes a step further with the tor integration, going as far as storing all data in RAM, so it deletes every cookie, history etc on restart. Could be an advantage, could be a disadvantage, up to you
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