I appreciate the advice (really, I do :) ), but I think I got it, thanks to a lot of the advice the others have given me regarding Handbrake and the like. :)
I was trying to get some work done, I don’t even remember what it was, and literally every tool that did exactly what I wanted was only available on Linux. Every time I looked stuff up, people just said, “oh yeah, type this into you command line and it works!” And I finally decided fuck it, and wiped my work laptop and installed Ubuntu.
Bash isn’t the only shell. Most systems can use zsh or fish or tcsh or whatever shell you prefer, if you like that better than bash. You’re gonna have to run a shell if you want to use the terminal, though, you understand that?
Shell scripts are very good for specific tasks. Don’t use them for tasks that are unsuitable. Use python or go or node or c if those are better for your needs. Use the right tool for the job. But also, learn to understand why the industry has been using shell scripts for decades.
As a shell, tcsh was OK if only because it included GNU Readline (or something like it) and, despite being a couple of years younger, kind of beat bash to the punch for that user-friendliness on account of being a largely unchanged drop-in replacement for its predecessor.
Bash isn’t the only shell. Most systems can use zsh or fish or tcsh or whatever shell you prefer, if you like that better than bash. You’re gonna have to run a shell if you want to use the terminal, though, you understand that?
Defaults matter. There are a lot of situations where you aren't allowed to install whatever you want. It would be less of an issue if other shells or language run-times came preinstalled. The problem isn't really Bash itself. It's the fact that it's often the only dependable option. But thankfully that's starting to change and you can usually find python preinstalled at minimum.
Things that should have disappeared 30 years ago are still problems in the operating system. Not least of which is the handling of locales. I cannot transfer Excel files from my Windows machine to my Linux machine because my Windows machine uses points to denote decimals (as in most companies and homes in South Africa) while Linux does a hard-enforce of the documented standard in South Africa which is a comma for decimal. This breaks my files and I am unable to perform calculations on Excel files due to this. Ridiculous, relevant and sad.
I was previously unaware of the kernel doing such things.
People are indifferent, unknowing, fearful, or just plain lazy to learn new apps. Got to get Office, QuickBooks, Quicken, Adobe, and other major apps to run on Linux.
Most of these are fringe cases nowadays, and often used in environments where the user has no control over the OS anyways. I don’t really use Office at home (for the three times per year, LibreOffice is good enough and that’s what most Windows users I know run at home anyways).
Also it’s not as easy as to just “get Office, QuickBooks, Quicken, Adobe, and other major apps to run on Linux”. The wine project is doing miraculous work already IMHO…
While I agree with you on the advantages (performance, stability, reliability, security, customization, privacy, lightweight nature, no corporate bloatware, etc) of Linux, its rate of adoption is considerably weak and consistently weak because of various reasons and causes that your article does not mention.
“Your article doesn’t mention the real reasons, which conveniently enough I won’t list either.”
As others have said, on distributions that go for ease of use, the terminal isn’t really needed.
However, I do consider it a convenience feature even for users who are not savvy with it: You can either troubleshoot an issue by giving instructions like “Open application X, navigate to Option, open Tab, press Button, then enter Text, hit OK and repeat for each” or “copy and paste this command into your terminal”. The amount of work on both sides is likely lower plus there’s less room for error.
There are common programs you need to install via the terminal, you can’t even change sound playback quality without editing a conf file which requires sudo!
There is so much you need the shell for and until people stop defending it and start focusing on UX Linux will never be popular for your average user.
There are common programs you need to install via the terminal
Out of interest, which programs do you need to install via terminal that concern the average user?
you can’t even change sound playback quality without editing a conf file which requires sudo!
What do you consider changing “playback quality”?
Sampling rate? That can be changed in a config file without sudo (~/.config/pipewire/pipewire.conf.d), you shouldn’t though because many applications expect 48000 as sampling rate. Unless you’re doing studio recordings you want 48000.
There is so much you need the shell
Correct, there is a lot of need for the shell, for power users. I don’t really see anything that the average office and browser enjoyer needs to do in the terminal. You can even game now in most distros without opening the terminal once.
Out of interest, which programs do you need to install via terminal that concern the average user?
For example installing the GPU driver for an older GPU. Or installing the driver for an obscure printer, touchpad or other weird hardware.
Average user doesn’t mean total noob. Installing Windows and the relevant drivers is something many users in the “Gamer class” can do. These guys usually don’t to command line (except for maybe pinging something), but they are comfortable with installing and configuring stuff in GUI.
They understand how to google the driver to their weird hardware, download the .exe or .msi, start it and navigate the install wizard.
On Linux I’ve had it a few times that you e.g. have to unload/load kernel modules and stuff to get a driver working. I once even had it, that the Linux driver for a device was only supplied in source code to be compiled with an ancient version of GCC that wasn’t available over the package manager. So then I spend an hour or two fixing compiler errors to upgrade that old source code to work with a current GCC.
Getting the same hardware to run under Windows meant downloading the .exe and running it.
And yeah, that’s not something you’ll do on a daily basis, but it is a huge roadblock for someone afraid of white text in a black window.
For example installing the GPU driver for an older GPU. Or installing the driver for an obscure printer, touchpad or other weird hardware.
That’s not quite my definition of “common”.
Average user doesn’t mean total noob. Installing Windows and the relevant drivers is something many users in the “Gamer class” can do.
The “Gamer class” is far from the average user, the average user doesn’t even know what a GPU or a driver is and doesn’t care. As long as the OS installs all drivers by default or the OEM has preinstalled them all is good.
Getting the same hardware to run under Windows meant downloading the .exe and running it.
Until there’s no more drivers for that generation of GPU. The Windows 11 drivers for AMD only go down to the Vega 64, if you have a Fury X or a 7970 you’re out of luck. Not that Windows 11 even lets you install on a machine that old.
AMDGPU goes down all the way to GCN 1.2, which means you can even run a 7970 on a modern Linux OS. Even out of the box if your distro has the legacy flags enabled.
It would be fantastic if there was more hardware that works out of the box in Linux, but that’s up to the manufacturers. Until more people switch to Linux they don’t bother and until they bother everybody complains that XY doesn’t work on Linux.
As of right now the biggest hurdle is Nvidia without drivers included in Linux. Without a distro that takes care of installing their drivers they are essentially out of luck.
Using a GPU under Linux is not common? And installing Linux on old laptops isn’t either?
As of right now the biggest hurdle is Nvidia without drivers included in Linux. Without a distro that takes care of installing their drivers they are essentially out of luck.
I can’t say anything about AMD, since the last time I had an AMD GPU is ~15 years ago.
When I installed an Ubuntu variant on my G580, which has a Geforce 635M it automatically installed the current driver for Geforce GPUs when I setup the OS, but that driver doesn’t support the 635M. That one needs a legacy driver. And getting that to work was a major pain.
I first installed the legacy driver over apt, but it didn’t do anything, because apparently installing the driver doesn’t actually load the kernel module for the driver. So I had to load it manually, and it still didn’t do anything. Turns out, uninstalling the original driver didn’t unload it from the GPU either. So I had to re-install the old driver, unload the module, uninstall the old driver, install the legacy driver and load the legacy module. Took me a few hours to figure all of that out.
No way someone without CLI experience will be able to do that.
Using a GPU under Linux is not common? And installing Linux on old laptops isn’t either?
Installing drivers for an older GPU, obscure printer, touchpad or other weird hardware is not common.
When I installed an Ubuntu variant on my G580, which has a Geforce 635M it automatically installed the current driver for Geforce GPUs when I setup the OS, but that driver doesn’t support the 635M. That one needs a legacy driver. And getting that to work was a major pain.
Which is an issue with Nvidia, they have no drivers for that GPU for Windows 11 either. Not saying that this is not an issue but there is absolutely nothing Linux can do to make every legacy GPU work without help from Nvidia. It uses the open source driver out of the box, which works sometimes but not for everything and definitely not for gaming.
Not saying that this is not an issue but there is absolutely nothing Linux can do to make every legacy GPU work without help from Nvidia.
Yes, they can. They literally have the correct (legacy) driver in the Ubuntu repo. But the autoinstaller installs the wrong driver during installing the OS. And if you try to manually install it, there is not even a text prompt in the CLI saying “You just installed that driver, do you want to actually use it to? (Y/n)”.
They could have even gone so far as to make a CLI wizard (like many other packages do) or even a GUI wizard. But no, the package just installs and does nothing by default.
It uses the open source driver out of the box, which works sometimes but not for everything and definitely not for gaming.
Also that is not correct. All the *buntu installers ask you when you install the OS whether you also want to have closed source drivers installed, and then it installs the closed source Nvidia drivers. Just the wrong ones.
That driver does not list the 635M but only the desktop version. Which is still impressive but I think they have separate drivers for their mobile chips? The latest driver listed for the 635M is only available for Windows 10 on their website.
Yes, they can. They literally have the correct (legacy) driver in the Ubuntu repo. But the autoinstaller installs the wrong driver during installing the OS. And if you try to manually install it, there is not even a text prompt in the CLI saying “You just installed that driver, do you want to actually use it to? (Y/n)”.
They could have even gone so far as to make a CLI wizard (like many other packages do) or even a GUI wizard. But no, the package just installs and does nothing by default.
Does ubuntu-drivers devices list the correct driver or is the recommended one too new? The driver packages in Ubuntu should install and activate themselves unless you have multiple installed, sounds like you ran into a bug.
Also that is not correct. All the *buntu installers ask you when you install the OS whether you also want to have closed source drivers installed, and then it installs the closed source Nvidia drivers. Just the wrong ones.
That does not change that Nouveau is used by default for the installer itself and by default for the OS if you don’t select anything.
You would have to Give SUSE / OpenSUSE a try. It has Yast2-GUI so everything from setting up a samba share, ftp server, to kernal tweak, system services, and boot setup can be done entirely in the GUI environment. Very similar to how the older Windows Control Panel looked. Also One-click install for rpm files. Oh and system rollback if you blow up the system, no command line fixes needed.
While I do like Excel, its handling of values as dates is also a big issue that has hit a lot of people in the past – the format is just not very portable or exchangeable. It’s not just an issue from Excel to other solutions… my point was rather that it’s not a “Linux” issue and the way it was worded sounded like the kernel had something to do with it.
I get your point, but the guy you quoted also has a point. For a non-techy person it’s really hard to understand the boundary of the OS, so where the OS ends and Apps begin. And tbh, even to a techy person, there isn’t really a hard border there.
For example: Is the DWM part of the OS? On Windows, definitely. It’s not the kernel, but it is the OS. You cannot remove or replace it.
On Linux, maybe, maybe not. It’s definitely part of the Distro, but you can replace it. But on the other hand, on Linux you can even replace the kernel if you really want to. So maybe replaceability is not the criterium? But if it isn’t, wouldn’t that make everything that came in the distro part of the OS?
On Windows, that’s kinda the case, with e.g. Edge being an integral, non-replaceable part of the OS.
And then you get into the territory of the “Linux is only the kernel” purists, that follow Stallmans fever dreams. They might say, Linux isn’t actually an OS at all.
And at the latest once Stallman’s speech has been quoted will anyone who is not a hardcore Linux philosopher say “Screw you guys, there is no point to this”.
I finally changed to Linux this year for good at least on my personal devices. I stayed on Windows just because of MS Office because I was doing work on my personal PCs at times. I needed Excel because I can’t stand LibreOffice Calc and only just recently learned about OnlyOffice. With having my work provide a PC though during COVID to all employees, I don’t need Excel on my personal PC anymore so I made the switch to Linux Mint. Tried a few different distros but just like the simplicity of Mint and Cinnamon is much better than Gnome for me.
I agree with this, and the GUI is simpler on Calc. Pivot Table, Filter indeed great in Calc, and I love how having snapshot for each file portable not depends on the OS file history.
Last I love how now days I can use LibreOffice more than ever than 10 years ago… !libreoffice
I haven’t used it in a while but I remember tab not autocompleting a formula I was typing and I also remember that if you started a formula with a + it wouldn’t handle it. I type a lot of formulas that I start with a + because it’s easy to do on the ten key. But it was more that a lot of small things and keybindings were different from Excel and because I needed to use Excel at work, it was annoying to have two separate workflows.
Online office365 excel is a thing if you need to use for work, etc. I have been almost exclusively using Linux for work since 2017 now. There are some apps for linux like MS Edge, MS Teams, Teamviewer, Webex, Zoom etc. But to fill the excel void I just login via the web browser. It is not 100% identical to using the native Excel App but close enough that I don’t need Windows. LibreOffice was working for casual excel tasks but I found it removed the auto table row shading from excel documents, and when submitting reports it was best to keep the look consistent.
They’re asking why it became available everywhere.
Bash-like scripting has become ubiquitous in operating systems, and it makes me wonder about its widespread adoption despite lacking certain programming conveniences found in other languages.
yea … for me, until proven otherwise, I’m thinking bash + *nix shell ecosystem is basically a COBOL that isn’t cool to make fun of (yet?).
All of the bash apologia I see whenever it comes up is not really encouraging. I get it, it’s got some handy features, but overall it’s clearly suboptimal for many, and that we keep on using because we’ve been keeping on using it but convince ourselves it’s good/cool … is not healthy.
Because other languages available at that time lacked certain programming conveniences found in bash :) Despite its shortcomings, it’s still a very convenient language for running other programs, working with files, and piping output from one program to another, or to a file. Bash was first released in 1989, and I don’t know exactly when it passed the threshold for widespread adoption, but I can’t think of anything that would’ve been a better alternative.
I think OP is also asking “why aren’t people switching to something else now” which is a completely different question.
I haven’t done this yet because I didn’t need it, but I think you have the option to install newer packages by creating a nixpkgs overlay. If the build process didn’t change between versions, it should be pretty straightforward. See nixos.wiki/wiki/Overlays, section “Overriding a version” for an example. Better yet create an issue on the nixpkgs bugtracker, or even better file a pull request for the updated package.
Edit: you could even define a new updated package just for the package that depends on it and then pass that new package as a normal override. No need to update the package systemwide.
I'm a fan of Framework laptops. They have given people the option to upgrade several motherboards by Intel and released an AMD version to boot. I don't think there's ever been a manufacturer that offered three generations of motherboards on the same chassis. The swappable ports are kind of neat, you can choose which ones you want to use
The 13" is already on sale with a 16" coming later this year
Just bought a second hand Lenovo p50, before framework’s most receng laptop, like the idea of a framework laptop but for now this thing is plenty powerful so can’t really justify upgrading for some years yet
Originally, because I was a poor middle school student with a bunch of dumpster hardware. I could not afford a windows license (this was the XP days). I immediately liked Ubuntu (gnome 2 at the time) more than windows, everything felt faster and more customizable. It really screamed on my pentium 3. I used Linux of various flavors all the way through school and continue to use it as my OS of choice to this day. I remember my teachers always being mad that I didn’t use “times new Roman” font when I turned in papers, explaining that I used Linux and TNR was not an available font didn’t do much for me. I would switch to windows for AAA games back in the day, but that is quickly becoming less necessary.
The biggest benefit I have seen over the years is that it is so much easier to keep old hardware alive (and still secure) with Linux. If your old matching is starting to bog down you can always find a lighter weight distro to load it up with. And when you are ready to upgrade hardware the old stuff can easily be turned into a server, game console, or PC for grandma. Anything to keep it out of a landfill is pretty easy to do. It used to be that you never had to worry about paying for an upgrade either, but now that windows is essentially free for upgrades that is no longer a huge benefit.
Maybe because he’s not “American” and comes from a country with regulations like the rest of the world, and people care when they vote to make things work.
And like most of the rest of the world, there are more than two political parties, and is not a drama show.
He has American citizenship and lives in America, he’s talking about America here. And I promise you that other countries, yes even those in the magical fantasy land of Europe, also have lots of political drama despite having more than two parties in the government (They tend to form alliances based on left/right and split into two blocks anyway).
I know, im from Europe.
The drama is not compared to USA, we don’t vote on celebrities.
In my country we even have a party for the animals and climate, so when USA still trying to vote for basic rights, we already ahead and vote for animal rights and more climate change.
For me, it just came down to how unintuitive and slow Windows’s desktop environment is. Setting up the most basic customizations requires going through like 15 sub-menus or dealing with the registry. Also, GNOME and KDE are just so much prettier than Windows’s desktop environment.
This is it for me, too. Back before I got into Linux I was forever tinkering with third party stuff to try to make the UI more efficient with things like Enso and Docker, and make it prettier with other stuff, but it was always a ramshackle cludged together mess. GNOME just resolves all of those issues neatly for me, runs faster, and isn't crammed full of bloatware ad crap like modern versions of Windows. And it's more secure, free, and ethically satisfying as a cooperative, trans-national project.
@theViscusOne Take a look at LC_TIME in your /etc/locale.conf. If you don't have one, make one and set all the things you want to be a specific locale.
The manpage might be helpful, it also references the locale one which may also help.
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