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Onii-Chan , in Furbies returning to store shelves next month
@Onii-Chan@kbin.social avatar

These are actually pretty cute, but again with the fucking app and online connection. I'd never have one of these in my house, let alone give one to my kids to play with unless I've disabled any network connectivity (but the simplest solution would be to just not buy one.)

flicker ,

@Onii@kbin.social

I think you misread the post friend. The app says that they introduced that garbage 10 years ago, but in a misleading move, they didn't clarify that this new iteration of Furby does not have either.

It's a super dishonest way of writing. I hope this helped!

alehel , in Starfield physical release won't include physical disc

CDs in current gen physical copies aren’t really much more than a license to download anyway considering many require a gigantic day 1 patch to play. So the CD doesn’t really give you anything anymore (except I guess you could lend it to a friend).

EvilColeslaw ,
@EvilColeslaw@beehaw.org avatar

You also can’t sell it, and thus also can’t buy it used. This is the final move to end the used market for console games.

sonoriensis , in Starfield physical release won't include physical disc

I love physical media because it’s so easy to get rid of it whenever you want. Are you sick of a game or don’t want to touch it ever again? Resell on the used market for a few bucks or give it to a friend or a young neighbor that might appreciate it. I like to keep a lean collection of games that I actually care about and might replay eventually.

lloram239 , in a list of games "Ahead of their time"

Another World had the whole cinematic gaming figured out back in times the floppy disk, lengthy intro included. Took about 15 years for the rest of the industry to catch up.

Elite procedural open world universe in 3D all the way back in 1984. The sequel in 1993, Frontier: Elite II even let you land on planets.

Magic Carpet, fully destructible terrain in 1994 along with an interesting mix of (very light) RTS and FPS. Later on Red Faction and Red Faction: Guerrila offered even more destructibility. While we have some modern games like Teardown that focus on destruction, it’s still not a commonly seen feature in games. Magic Carpet is also still the most “3D” game I am aware of, supported almost everything, VR headsets, red&green glasses, even MagicEye-style auto stereograms.

EF2000, flight simulation with a full dynamic war simulated in the background. Falcon 4.0 improved on it. Carrier Command might be an even earlier example of similar mechanics. Mainstream gaming still hasn’t really had anything similar as far as I can tell and relies on scripted events instead of a simulated world.

Boulder Dash Construction Kit (1986), might not have been the first, but one of the early games including a fully featured and easy to use level editor.

Paroxia ,
@Paroxia@lemmy.ca avatar

I was coming to scream “Another World” here. We played the future hard with this one. So many games are essencially Another World.

TimeSquirrel , in I HATE “boomer shooter”
@TimeSquirrel@kbin.social avatar

Why are they being called "boomer shooters"? My boomer parents didn't want anything to do with them. The older millenials were the ones playing them. Most boomers don't even like video games.

MrEUser OP ,
@MrEUser@lemmy.ninja avatar

This is answered in the comments.

TimeSquirrel ,
@TimeSquirrel@kbin.social avatar

Ah thanks.

_ed ,

I thought it was a reference to the phrase ‘Suck my boomstick’ which I think came from Duke Nukem.

DrWeevilJammer ,

Which probably lifted it from the 1992 movie "Army of Darkness", starring Bruce Campbell:

Ash: Alright you primitive screw heads, listen up. You see this?

This...is my boomstick! It's a twelve-gauge double barrel Remington. S-Mart's top of line. You can find this in the sporting goods department.

That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids,Michigan. Retails for about $109.95. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt steel barrel, and hair trigger. Shop smart, shop S-Mart.

dcheesi , in 'The Elder Scrolls VI' is 'likely five-plus years away,' says Xbox chief

As long as they're still making money selling ES:O expansions, why devote the resources for an all-new game?

Sharmat ,

Also, the teams behind ESO and the mainline titles are not the same. The main team that made Skyrim, Oblivion and the others is focused on Starfield now, and probably for the next three-ish years with the post-release content.

RecluseGamer , in BattleBit Remastered is dominating Steam because there's no catch: it's just a lot of game for $15

I’ve been having a lot of fun with it. Even if I only get a few weeks or months until they add FACEIT, it’s worth the $15.

drifty ,
@drifty@sopuli.xyz avatar

FACEIT really is a bummer

tj111 ,

I was interested about this game by the article, but what is FACEIT?

riskable ,
@riskable@programming.dev avatar

FACEIT is yet another completely useless, doesn’t-actually-work, trust-the-client anti-cheating tool. Basically, it makes it so that cheaters (and the game publisher) can claim cheating isn’t happening because, “there’s an anti-cheat tool” but in reality it doesn’t stop actual cheaters.

The entire purpose of anti-cheat tools appears to be to stop casual Linux gamers from being able to play the game. Microsoft has a big part in it as well because the very same intentional vulnerabilities in Windows that hackers use to install undetectable rootkits are what get used by anti-cheat software.

If Microsoft wanted they could close those vulnerabilities by making all privilege levels above administrator (of which Windows has two which is insane) inaccessible to anyone but Microsoft. Instead they just collect money from 3rd party vendors to sign their driver encryption keys, inherently trusting those vendors not to make software with vulnerabilities. It’s a recipe for insecurity and Microsoft likes it that way. It acts as a form of vendor lock-in.

Anti-cheat tools pretty much all work with the same basic assumption: Trust the client. What’s the first rule of network programming? Never trust the client!

storksforlegs , in Microsoft acquired Bethesda after hearing Starfield would be exclusive to PlayStation
@storksforlegs@beehaw.org avatar

I keep hoping that since Microsoft owns Obsidian they might somehow allow Obsidian to make another fallout game… I miss good writing in Fallout.

FreeFacts ,

Considering that Bethesda doesn’t seem to have enough people to work full time with two major releases simultaneously, giving Fallout to other studios wouldn’t be that far fetched. Otherwise Microsoft would have to wait for Elder Scrolls 6 release to have a full team working on a Fallout game, and that release window is rumoured to be 5-6 years from now. So 8+ more years without a real main series game in one of their big franchises seems like bad business…

Interesting thing is that Microsoft has the key building blocks from Interplay era under their banner already. Through Obsidian they have Tim Cain, Chris Jones and Feargus Urquhart, who lead the first two Fallout games. inExile has Brian Fargo, the original idea man of the series. And Bethesda has the IP. They could really get the original team together to cook up a new game.

Faydaikin ,
@Faydaikin@beehaw.org avatar

They could really get the original team together to cook up a new game.

I shit you not, that was likely an idea MS had when they started buying up all the studios. But the boys are slowly starting to retire from game development or have moved on to greener pastures and other ideas, so good luck on the prospect of some OG Fallout/Wasteland stuff coming.

Plus, let’s not delude ourselves into thinking MS gives a shit about the customers, the franchises or anything other than their own wallets.

And Bethesda has been a shitshow for a while now and it shows in their games. Poor management leads to poor development and poor products. If they have 3000+ employees and only releases one game every 5(+/-) years. And the games are still so alpha-levels of broken upon release that the Modding Community have to fix every release, for the same bugs, every time, you’re doing something wrong.

I’m not trying to be super negative here. Cynical? Sure. But mostly just trying to give another perspective.

I believe something is coming. But don’t get your hopes up too high. In the end, it’s more that likely just about milking something that maybe should have remained dead.

NettoHikari , in Does anyone else sometimes feel overwhelmed by (big) games?
@NettoHikari@social.fossware.space avatar

I thought I was alone with that feeling. I’m in exactly the same boat as you.

For me, it’s a tiny bit different, because I played BOTW shortly before my daughther was born in 2017. I still had time for games like that back in the day. Now I don’t only have a daughter, but a son as well.

When I grab the controller and start playing something time intensive like BOTW and now TOTK, I usually feel really guilty really quick, because there are so many other things to do, that in theory should have a higher priority.

brokensprocket99 ,

Just do what I do. Split your time between family, work, house projects, errands, and play a little of each backlogged game you have. Get absolutely nothing in your life done by trying to do everything 24/7. This way you get the benefit of feeling like you have no free time while also having the benefit of getting burnt out and overstressed. It can't backfire. 100% sustainable.

Help me.

HannahBecz ,

Don't forget taking so long a break between games that you completely forget what you're supposed to be doing, and if the game offers no sort of recap/hand-holding quest system - you have to start from scratch.

At which point the daunting nature of that overwhelms you and you just sit there browsing your catalog for something new to play/continue until you're 15 minutes past your allotted time - and you're now even further behind.

Win/win all around.

ivereadalltheory , in BattleBit Remastered is dominating Steam because there's no catch: it's just a lot of game for $15
@ivereadalltheory@beehaw.org avatar

How does it run on Linux?

RandomStickman ,
@RandomStickman@kbin.social avatar

If you are in to singleplayer bot matches Ravenfield is pretty cool. The game's workshop is vast, so you can go from a WWI shooter to 40K and everything in between.

It's natively Linux so that's neat as well

lumpeh ,

I’d also like to mention Easy Red 2 for this too. WW2 only (for now) but its all about playing with the bots and does run decent on a Deck.

Zenaida_macroura ,
@Zenaida_macroura@lemmy.ml avatar

They’re adding modding soon, so maybe it could become a semi-realistic ravenfield?

HarvesterOfEyes , in Crossplay games that are not f2p cashgrab
@HarvesterOfEyes@lemmy.ml avatar

Fighting games? Street Fighter 6, The King of Fighters XV and Guilty Gear Strive all have crossplay, are pretty recent and good fun even if you don’t want to fully dedicate yourselves to it.

meoooow ,
@meoooow@beehaw.org avatar

For Honor would be an addition I would make to the pile.

HarvesterOfEyes ,
@HarvesterOfEyes@lemmy.ml avatar

Never played it but heard good things about it. Is it similar to Mordhau? If it is, I second your recommendation, because I played that game with friends and had a ton of fun.

Mummelpuffin ,
@Mummelpuffin@beehaw.org avatar

It’s a lot closer to a typical fighting game than Mordhau, TBH. Combat is more structured around “moves” that you have rather than being able to just drag a weapon around wherever.

HarvesterOfEyes ,
@HarvesterOfEyes@lemmy.ml avatar

Ah, so it’s a bit more complex, in a way. I’m guessing you can chain moves together as well? That seems pretty cool.

Sentinian , in The Story of Factorio, the Game that Only Increases in Price

This game gets universal praise and I’d love to play it but as a PC gamer I refuse to as I wouldn’t want to support a dev who not only never does sales but raises the price because of “inflation”

Deestan OP ,

Me, I wish more games respected my time like that, instead of costing 40$ and going on 20% sale every few weeks, leaving me to hunt bargain bins to be able to get it at its “efficient” price.

zark ,

I don’t really understand your take. They sold the game cheap after 7 years of development and it’s still a really good value after the increases in price. I couldn’t praise the developers and how they run this game / business enough.

Factorio returns an ever increasing value for the money due to the continuous effort the developers have put in especially on modding, and on the ever expanding quality and amount of mods that gives you a whole new game many times over.

I cannot think of a game that has better value for money than Factorio.

The only downside is that you will spend an indeterminate amount of time playing the game and when you think your finally done, there is another game changing mod that will give you another full and even longer gameplay, for free.

There’sa free demo you can download to try it out and see if it’s something you’d value.

Noughmad ,

Does the value you get of the game change depending on which time of the year you buy it?

Actually, the only change is up, as the game was improving and expanding pretty much constantly from the first early release to version 1.1. And it value is going up, when you buy in early access you’re only getting the current (unfinished but playable) state and a “promise” that it will get better in the future. When you buy the finished product you’re already certainly getting that better state, so it makes sense that it’s more expensive.

Sentinian ,

A game going up in price is fair from early access to release. This is a typical concept and an expected one for the reason you stated, the company makes a promise that it will be fully released.

To me the issue is the inflation price increase that most recently happened. Typically when a digital good releases in a finished state, it tends to stay at a max price. 30 USD is what Factorio decided on. Then it’s up to 35. Sure its had updates since the full release but why should I have to pay more then the full release price because I waited?

Typically sales are the reward for those who wait. Factorio seems to be the opposite, those who wait pay more. Inflation is real I understand, but this is also a digital good that has infinite supply. I as a consumer want to buy a game, and I can’t tell what the content changed from this 1.0 to the 1.1 since I haven’t played it. It probably is justifiable for the 5 bucks increase, but the consumer doesn’t know that. I just know this game I want, was 30 bucks and now it’s 35 and still hasn’t been on sale.

The reward for getting a full release game before a sale is to play it early. You aren’t losing the value of your purchase because I got it for 30% off. You got to play it early, and I waited for a price that I felt willing to pay. (The you is referring to people in general, not you specifically)

Noughmad ,

To me the issue is the inflation price increase that most recently happened. Typically when a digital good releases in a finished state, it tends to stay at a max price. 30 USD is what Factorio decided on. Then it’s up to 35. Sure its had updates since the full release but why should I have to pay more then the full release price because I waited?

Because when you buy it now for $35 right now, you get more for your money than what I got years ago for $25. Even ignoring the additional content and polishing, you’re also getting the benefit of all the testing and bug reporting by early adopters, as well as the bug fixing by the developers.

Typically sales are the reward for those who wait.

This is just the wrong mindset. Why would the developer, publisher, valve, or anyone else want to reward you for not buying their product?

(yes, I know software pricing is a clusterfuck. But the common theme is that the seller wants to extract as much value from every customer as possible, so ideally they would set the price individually for each customer based on the highest amount that customer is willing to pay. Sales after a while are a mechanism for this.)

Sentinian ,

Because when you buy it now for $35 right now, you get more for your money than what I got years ago for $25. Even ignoring the additional content and polishing, you’re also getting the benefit of all the testing and bug reporting by early adopters, as well as the bug fixing by the developers.

Is that not the opposite? Sure I get less buggy version, but you also have how many years to play compared to me. And you are getting the same game I am when I buy it. You eventually get that content, which one could say is added value to the 25 bucks vs the 35 I spend. You got 10 bucks of content from free essentially.

This is just the wrong mindset. Why would the developer, publisher, valve, or anyone else want to reward you for not buying their product?

It’s not the publisher rewarding me. The reward comes from me waiting and getting a cheaper game then those who bought it earlier. As you state

so ideally they would set the price individually for each customer based on the highest amount that customer is willing to pay. Sales after a while are a mechanism for this.

If a game isn’t worth X amount of dollars to me then I will wait till the game is Y amount of dollars. If the game never does then I never buy it, meaning the publishers lose, not me.

Noughmad ,

Is that not the opposite? Sure I get less buggy version, but you also have how many years to play compared to me. And you are getting the same game I am when I buy it. You eventually get that content, which one could say is added value to the 25 bucks vs the 35 I spend. You got 10 bucks of content from free essentially.

No, you’re forgetting the fact that when I bought it, I didn’t know what I’ll be getting in the future. I lucked out with Factorio, but it could happen that the devs just stopped working on it, I didn’t know at the time.

It’s not the publisher rewarding me. The reward comes from me waiting and getting a cheaper game then those who bought it earlier. As you state

Who do you think sets the price, if not the publisher?

the publishers lose, not me.

And yet, it’s not the publishers complaining about it online.

Sentinian , (edited )

No, you’re forgetting the fact that when I bought it, I didn’t know what I’ll be getting in the future. I lucked out with Factorio, but it could happen that the devs just stopped working on it, I didn’t know at the time.

That’s the risk you paid for. My criticism is price increase after full launch. If early access game goes up in price when it fully releases that is a different thing.

Who do you think sets the price, if not the publisher?

The publisher sets the price. They put a game on sale to make more money. I buy the game on sale. I get the game as the reward. The publisher gets money they wouldn’t have otherwise.

And yet, it’s not the publishers complaining about it online.

I’m a random person who has no reputation to defend. I could just as easily start over online and nothing would hurt me. The publisher has a reputation to keep. They need to keep making money. Other then that, complaining is the way to for the consumer to get thoughts out about practices. I don’t like a game going up in price due to “inflation” and a game never going on sale therefor I will communicate that.

Manticore , in What's the age cut off for socially acceptable gaming
@Manticore@beehaw.org avatar

Be 80 and play FIFA, it’s fine. There’s no age where you are obliged to put down your controller for the last time. But it shouldn’t be your first answer while you’re dating, and definitely not your only one.

Being a gamer, as an identity, has a lot of baggage.

Having gaming be your only interest or hobby is associated with being an unambitious self-interested person who intends to do as a little as possible, as long as possible. The recognisable games are marketed towards kids/teens with time to burn.

Imagine your date’s interest was “moderating Reddit”, “watching TikTok”, or “reading Instagram”. That’s what ‘gaming’ sounds like: your hobby is media consumption.

There’s no age where you aren’t allowed to consume media; but it’s worrying if that consumption is your identity, if consumption makes up your routine.

So it’s not actually about age - it’s about maturity and goal-setting.

When we’re younger, most of us live moment-by-moment. Media consumption offers no future, but it has a pleasurable present.

But as people age, people develop goals and interests that require more investment and focus, and they’re looking for people that are doing the same. A cutthroat economy demands people develop goals for financial stability, even if they still otherwise like games.

As we age, we stop looking for somebody to hang out with, but to build a life with.

So once the people you’re talking to have interests for the future, “I enjoy my present doing my own thing” doesn’t offer them anything. If they don’t play games, they don’t even know what games are capable of. Maybe one day they’d enjoy playing Ultimate Chicken Horse with you.

But right now, they just see the recognisable titles that want to monopolise children’s time, and assume you’re doing that. They picture you spending 20+ hours a week playing Fortnite. And there is an age cut-off where it’s no longer socially-acceptable to be a child.

It’s not that video games are bad, but they’re a non-answer. They want to know what you do that’s good, and a non-answer implies you don’t have a good answer at all, and that makes video games ‘bad’.

ElmarsonTheThird ,

That’s what ‘gaming’ sounds like: your hobby is media consumption.

It’s really weird that people who have “reading books” as their main hobby are not as stigmatized as their digital media counterparts. Is it the digital aspect that turns the hobby into weirdness?

Manticore ,
@Manticore@beehaw.org avatar

Maybe - certainly generations always assume anything that younger people do is somehow worse than what they did, and the digital landscape is a part of that. When writing slates became accessible, the old guard complained it was ‘lazy’ because they didn’t have to remember it anymore. Any music popular among teenagers (especially teenage girls) is mocked as foolish, cringe, etc.

But I suspect like most hobbies, it’s mostly the following that determine our assumptions:

  • history of the media and its primary audience (digital mediums are mostly embraced by youth; video games initially marketed to young children)
  • accessibility; scarcity associated with prestige (eg: vital labour jobs are not considered ‘real jobs’ if they don’t require a degree)
  • the kind of people we visibly see enjoying it (we mostly see children, teenagers, and directionless adults as gaming hobbyists)

You’re right, reading is not somehow more or less moral than video games. Many modern games have powerful narrative structure that is more impactful for being an interactive medium. Spec Ops: The Line embraces the players actions as the fundamentals of its message. Gamers are hugely diverse; more than half the US population actually plays games at this point, and platforms are rapidly approaching an almost even gender split. (Women may choose to play less or different games, and hide their identity online, but they still own ~40% of consoles.)

Games as a medium is also extremely broad. I don’t think you could compare games to ‘watching anime’ for example, so much as ‘the concept of watching moving pictures’, because they can range from puzzles on your phone, to narrative epics, to grand strategies, to interactive narratives.

So a better comparison for video games isn’t ‘reading books’ so much as reading in general, and are you reading Reddit, the news, fiction, or classic lit? What does your choice of reading mean?

So for your suggested hobby of ‘reading books’, one might assume any (or all) of the following:

  • they are intelligent and introspective (or pretentious),
  • they are educated (or think they’re better than you),
  • they are patient and deliberate (or boring),
  • they’d be interesting to discuss ideas with (or irrelevant blatherers).

Assuming everybody who reads is ‘smart’ is as much an assumption as assuming everybody who games is ‘lazy’, and the assumptions you make about the hobby are really assumptions you make about the typical person who chooses it. It may not be a guarantee, but its a common enough pattern.

TLDR: Ultimately? I think books have inflated status because it’s seen as a hobby for thinkers; people picture you reading Agatha Christie (but you could be reading Chuck Tingle, or comic books). Games have deflated status because it’s seen as a hobby for people who consume mindlessly - the people who know what games are capable of are the ones playing them, too.

waspentalive , in What's the age cut off for socially acceptable gaming

I am over 60 and play Minecraft regularly.

owl ,

Teach me about Minecraft, Wise One! I’m a mere 50 and looking to get into it…

waspentalive , (edited )

I play on Linux, but Minecraft works well in Linux, Windows and Macintosh. There are also clients for mobile phones. You may have to seek help elsewhere for installing Minecraft, for windows I think it is in the Microsoft store so that should be easiest.

Ok, Minecraft is a sandbox game with no specific goal or endpoint. The object is to build stuff and have fun. There is a dangerous element built-in in the form of Creepers, Skeletons, Spiders, and Zombies. Creepers are the worst - they destroy your actual work. The others can just kill you - you end up reincarnating back at the spawn point. The spawn point is the location where

  1. you first appeared in the game world
  2. the last place you slept in a bed.

I normally play with the dangerous “Mobs” (mobile items) turned off as I like the model-building aspect of the game.

Some of this will seem wordy and confusing - really it is simple but takes a lot to describe. Youtube has “First Day in Minecraft” videos by various players that will show you what I am describing. “www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADU1ycprBg4” seems good.

Ok, that’s the environment, now the mechanics. You can move your avatar, you in the game, with the “w s a d” keys. these walk forward, backup, or slide right or left. You can change where you are looking with the mouse.

You can break blocks with the tool you are holding by holding down the Left mouse button. You will see cracks form and finally, the item will break. Move close to the floating broken item and you pick it up and put it in your inventory.

You can place items from your inventory into the world with the right mouse button.

You start with only fists as your tools - but you are strong, you can punch trees to get logs and cut down the tree. Find a tree that is not touching others and punch (hold down the left mouse button) until that block breaks - you will see a smaller version of the log floating nearby or you may pick it up automatically if it lands close to you. Likewise, punch each of the other log blocks of the tree. You now have logs!

You can use one log to craft a crafting table. To open your crafting interface push the “e” key on your keyboard - You will be presented with a 2x2 place to put items and your inventory. Drag and drop one log from your inventory into any of the 2x2 cells and see 4 planks appear in the output cell. Drag those planks back into your inventory. Take 4 planks from your inventory and put them in the 4 cells of the crafting interface and you see in the output a crafting table. A crafting table works the same way as your crafting interface except it has a 3x3 input area. The larger input area allows you to craft larger, more complicated things.

You want to get wood and build yourself a small simple shelter before night comes. The dangerous mobs come out at night and you want to be enclosed so they can’t get to you. When daylight comes Zombies and Creepers burn in the sunlight and spiders become docile until the next night.

Now - many of the things you make on a crafting table or in your crafting interface require the ingredients be placed in a specific arrangement. You can learn of these arrangements by opening the crafting book (the book icon in the crafting interface)

Reply here if you have other questions - but go watch that video first. Have fun! Welcome to Minecraft. BTW I am 65 and playing Minecraft so don’t let anyone tell you it’s just a kid’s game.

I usually hang out on Lemmy.one. I am waspentalive there too. I may be slow in responding if you reply. Sorry…

owl ,

Thank you for your generous response. I’ll follow your advice… I just wanted to say that it feels great that someone has taken this much interest in my Minecraft initiation!

waspentalive ,

Your welcome.

DianaSt75 , in What's the age cut off for socially acceptable gaming

I have wildly diverse hobbies, so I usually manage to mention something that people around me find weird. Gaming is one of them, and since I am not just your age but also female, I have received tons of strange comments over the years. At least my being somewhat fluid in English isn’t making me stand out anymore!

I think computer-related activities are seen different by our age group since we didn’t exactly grow up with it, or at least most of us didn’t. I know I was already a teenager when my parents bought us kids a computer, and that one needed inputs in BASIC and was textbased only. And while several of my classmates had similar experiences plus parents who insisted this was useful to know for our futures (and boy, where they right!), most of us still preferred to spent our time elsewhere. I see the difference in my kids, who grew up with not only computers and related technology, but also the internet. My son occasionally played board games via an internet platform by the time he was five (under supervision, of course), and as such, video games are much more part of daily life for that generation.

In my eyes, the decades-long discussion on when to give your child his/her first mobile phone has similar roots: We were used to a slower pace of life, that as a child you carry a few coins so that you can call your parents from a pay phone in an emergency, and otherwise you had to be at home at a specified time. Play dates with school mates were discussed in person at school, and so forth. Our children are dealing with far faster pace, discussion with class mates only occasionally take place eye-to-eye, and their schedules have become much more complex and fluid. Also, they grow up knowing everybody and anybody carries a phone in their pocket, and of course they want the same. Technology is integrated into their lifes from the start, and that means gaming is far more acceptable as a pastime.

TIN OP ,

Very thoughtful response, thanks!

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