What are the practical benefits of the fediverse?

recursive_recursion , 5 months ago

There’s a couple things I’ve noticed while using Lemmy and Mastodon:

Admins and moderators have a sort of distributed power as it’s somewhat no longer consolidated to a single instance like Reddit anymore,

• and so there’s more incentive to making good decisions for not only for oneself but for the collective (reason being long-term instance sustainability)
  • therefore this system is likely to incentivize admins and moderators to make better long-term decisions rather than chasing short-term goals.
  • anytime I see systems that encourages people to make better long term decisions that makes me happy :D

additionally the fediverse gives more leeway to user choice as you’re no longer locked down to an instance

• (this of course changes based on the instance federation/defederation situation which stems from the instance admin’s/admins’ past and current actions.)
• this allows users to participate on multiple communities using one account instead of having to create multiple accs

the emergent complexity of the systems that builds the fediverse seems like it’s currently on a good path for building sustainable homely communities, so I’m cautiously optimistic

so far there’s areas I can see that could use some QOL improvement for online discussions boards/forums and Lemmy’s current systems seems like a good point to branch out from

Die4Ever , 5 months ago

imagine if someone creates a truly better Reddit alternative than Lemmy and all the others (or maybe just a fork and not truly brand new)

they don’t have to fight against the momentum and start with 0 users and 0 content, they get kickstarted by the content already in the Fediverse, so people will be more willing to jump in

so the best platform actually has the chance to shine instead of dying because no one is using it, but it also doesn’t leave users behind who prefer the other platforms, and the other platforms have a chance to catch up again with all the access to the shared content

TORFdot0 , 5 months ago

The advantages of the fediverse are that there is no central ownership or structure of data. Your data is just your data, and your instance is just where you decide to host it.

You can sign up on one mastodon instance and start tooting and gather a following, if your mastodon instance starts enforcing rules that you don’t agree with (such as federating/defederating with meta) then your following belongs to you, not your mastodon instance and you can migrate your account.

Similarly the different services are just ways to present the same data as delivered by ActivityPub. I can access data posted to a Lemmy instance from Mastodon. I can follow pixelfed accounts from Mastodon. I can follow Mastodon users from Kbin, etc.

Right now big social media is like writing in the guest book and they let people look at it if you fill their requirements.

Federated social media is like sending an email to a public inbox that anyone can subscribe to as long as their instance maintains good standing with the sender.

vsis , 5 months ago

Pros:

• No single entity that have all control.
• No entity profits from it, so you are not a product.
• Related to above: No trackers, no ads, no spyware, etc.

Cons:

• It is run by volunteers: bad uptimes, slower progress, slower fixes, etc.
• Some volunteer may give up and delete the instance. It happened to my first Lemmy account (nothing against you, stux)
• No market-driven decisions means sometimes instances defederate each other for purely ideological reasons. Sometimes very childishly.
• Lots of fedidrama.

Welcome to Lemmy. Hope you enjoy it.

Rincewindnz , 5 months ago

I’ve also noticed that for some communities, such as the conservative community, the posts get downvoted heaps because they are as accessible as any community. On Reddit I just wouldn’t have seen their posts. This potentially makes it unwelcome for people of particular ideologies. (Possibly a self governing trait of the wider community)

jezebelley , 5 months ago

Nazis being downvoted is always a positive.

Rincewindnz , 5 months ago

Totally, kinda hope the majority of American voters agree this year.

lvxferre , 5 months ago

The practical benefit is when things go wrong.

Imagine that you’d rather not deal with the Reddit admins, for whatever reason. You have two options: either you suck it up and deal with them, or throw away all Reddit content, communities and people, because of those admins.

Now imagine that you had some issue with the administration of your Lemmy instance. You still have both options above, plus a third one: migrate to another instance. You still have access to [mostly] the same content, communities and people as you did before; but you don’t need to deal with the admins of your older instance. You can eat the cake and have it too. That’s exactly what I did rather recently by the way.

amio , 5 months ago

Imagine that you’d rather not deal with the Reddit admins, for whatever reason. You have two options: either you suck it up and deal with them, or throw away all Reddit content, communities and people, because of those admins.

Unfortunately the fediverse, at least in the Lemmy/kbin sense, doesn't solve that particular problem. This exact scenario can still happen because a community belongs to an instance, and that instance can still be maliciously or just ineptly managed. There are also added complications with federation, defederation, instance/community politics, and just dealing with "duplicate" communities in general.

For example, certain highly political instances host many communities that are not political, and have been known to silently ban people from the whole thing just because their politics were "wrong". Sounds Reddity to me.

TORFdot0 , 5 months ago

You can still subscribe to the community on the boogered instance from your new instance. And if it’s bad, people are going to start to subscribe to another community on the same topic on another instance with you. And it can have the same name, you don’t even have to call it r/the_true_real_feet pics like you do when a community splinters on reddit

lvxferre , 5 months ago

Even then, you can still move the community to another instance. You won’t get the same address, but provided that the community wants to leave, it will. (In fact I’m doing this right now, migrating !linguistics into !linguistics )

That’s because the community is not just some address on the URL bar. It’s the users and the content that they share with each other. It’ll be where the users are.

kplaceholder , 5 months ago

Now imagine that you had some issue with the administration of your Lemmy instance. You still have both options above, plus a third one: migrate to another instance.

In theory, yes.

In practice, I strongly disagree with a number of decisions by the admins of my instance, but I’d rather keep ownership of the comments I have posted and would like to be notified if anyone ever replies to them in the future. Since I care more about the latter than the former, I’m not planning on moving instances at the moment. Guess I could create another account elsewhere, but I’d still have to check out the account on the old instance every once in a while. Plus I’d like to have a unified posting history. It sucks, and the technology is not quite there yet, but I hope true migrations between instances become a thing sooner than later. As far as I have been told, true migrations aren’t yet a thing even on Mastodon.

lvxferre , 5 months ago

I hope that content migration (what you called “true” migration) becomes a thing in the future.

That said, the burden of checking your old account once in a blue moon is by no means that big. And if someone replied to you months after you posted something, odds are that the person can wait a bit before you reply them. You can also link your old account in your new one’s profile and vice versa, for more pressing matters.

So while I get your point (and it is a fair point - the migration isn’t completely costless), it’s still an option that you wouldn’t see in Reddit.

beebarfbadger , 5 months ago

One plus is that it takes more than one autocratic greedy wannabe tyrant to enshittify your entire experience by forcing ads upon you while taking away all the good but not ad-delivery-optimised tools.

Hamartiogonic , 5 months ago

It’s a lot like email really. If the 14 MB of storage hotmail once offered wasn’t enough for you, switching to the 1 GB of Gmail may have seemed appealing. If Google seems a bit too creepy for you, consider switching to proton or something.

If the admins of your current instance don’t like your cat memes, feel free to move to another one where cats and dogs are equally appreciated.

mozz , 5 months ago

Every social media has tended towards awfulness (Facebook and Twitter being two most glaring examples) to the point where it impacts the user experience, because the companies have to make money somehow. If you're using the service for free, that means figuring out how they can use you as a resource for other people to be able to do something profitable with you, and engineering the site to encourage you to do things that will make somebody money, instead of what you'd like to do with the site. That's why they eventually get infested with ads and user-hostile features to the point that they become unpleasant.

(Reddit is a little more complex; it's still actively good as a source of links and memes and etc, but definitely degraded compared to what it used to be, i.e. well run AMAs, good conversation with a wide variety of people going in depth into their stories, creative outlets, well-informed people talking about tech and politics etc.)

A volunteer-run server won't have that issue. It'll have other significant issues (reliability and ease of use being the two obvious ones), but a lot of people in the modern world and almost everyone you'll talk to here will feel that the tradeoff is worth it.

JohnDClay , 5 months ago

Also, third party apps! I really don’t like the default Reddit app.

half_built_pyramids , 5 months ago

Is it not just a more inconvenient version of making a reddit account and being able to post practically anywhere?

Reddit is convenient, but then one corporation owns you and they can decide to fuck over anyone for any reason. Hence the 3rd party app fiasco.

No single entity owns the fediverse. It is a little more inconvenient if your server dies, but other servers survive. It is a little more inconvenient if your server blocks other servers and you don’t agree with the reasons why. That’s the trade off for not having one centralized asswipe in charge.

Also what’s the difference between making an account at one instant and just making one centralized account for the social media?

Not sure what you’re asking. You make an account on one lemmy server and that’s it.

sab , 5 months ago

There's a flip side to everything of course:

It is a little more inconvenient if your server dies, but other servers survive.

Assuming the server is going to die, it's arguably more convenient on the Fediverse as most communities won't die with it. If Reddit disappears the entire site will be gone; if lemmy.world dies the Threadiverse will continue on without too much trouble.

It is a little more inconvenient if your server blocks other servers and you don’t agree with the reasons why.

That's true, but the added convenience is that you can join a server where you agree with moderating decisions. Content moderation is not one size fits all; at least on the Fediverse it's theoretically possible for everyone to end up on a server they're happy with.

Link , 5 months ago

You can also host your own server and not rely on anyone else.

VinesNFluff , 5 months ago

Yes but also a lot of fediverse instances autoblock small one person servers because of how often they are used by spammers and harrassers

gedaliyah , 5 months ago

Exactly this. I left Xitter because the moderation became so bad that literal bigoted harassment of entire communities was left unchecked. What are my options? Stay or leave.

I left reddit because the server became hostile to the ways that it was useful to me (third part app usage, corrupt moderation and administration, etc.). Again, the options were to stay or go.

If any of those problems were to happen here on lemmy.world, I could migrate to another instance and still have access to the platform.

JohnDClay , 5 months ago

Are you familiar with enshitification? Lots of smaller instances people can run themselves holds off the platform enshitifying.

JollyTreecko OP , 5 months ago

How is that different than just making different smaller subreddits? I did notice some instances have themes, like tech or electronics. So is it that if one instance enshitifies there would be many other instances with tech related communities?

fine_sandy_bottom , 5 months ago

That’s pretty much it, yes.

There’s no central control.

In a practical sense this creates a better experience because if an instance does something like… allow too many bots, or include ads, everyone can just block them

olorin99 , 5 months ago

Pretty much. By splitting the platform into smaller chunks (instances) you reduce the effect any one instance has on the rest of the platform. The price for this is convenience however over time people will find solutions for this.

sab , 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

All subreddits are run by Reddit; if Reddit decides to overrun it with ads, require you to use their app, make content impossible to enjoy, or incorporate some awful AI bullshit, nobody can really do anything about it.

Over here, you are in charge of your own user experience. You're reading this content from dbzer0; I'm using an entirely different application called kbin. We have completely different user experiences, and some users might be banned on my server but not on yours (or vice versa).

Others might get different user experiences through apps or front-ends such as Old Lemmy or more experimental stuff. It's basically going to be a lot more difficult to enshittify as everybody is chosing their own experience.

As for the communities, they are indeed at the mercy of whoever runs a particular server. If the lemmy.world admins go a bit crazy, users might for example respond by jumping ship to the https://lemmy.ml/c/fediverse community on a different server.

odium , 5 months ago

Side note: when linking to a community you have to do !community. If you do !fediverse, it links to kbin.social’s fediverse community for everyone. If you just write !fediverse, that links to !fediverse for me, !fediverse for you and other kbin.social users, !fediverse for lemmy.world users, etc.

sab , 5 months ago

Oops, yes - there's a bug in Kbin where links to local communities don't work properly. I kind of assumed it would appear correctly when viewed from other instances, turns out that's not the case. :)

JohnDClay , 5 months ago

Not subs, but the entire platform is Reddit can enshitify. More adds, no api, pushing nfts/crypto, etc.

odium , 5 months ago

You don’t need to subscribe to a community to post. You can post to any lemmy or kbin community from any lemmy or kbin account as long as the account hasn’t been blocked.

There is no difference in making accounts as long as you’re not blocked. The only difference is that no single entity can control lemmy. The people who control dbzero are different from the people who control lemmy.world.

JollyTreecko OP , 5 months ago

Yeah I was a bit confused first and thought I needed to subscribe, I didn’t realize I just needed to open fediverse from dbzer0.

Blaze , 5 months ago

Well, you said it yourself, you’re able to comment using your Db0 account on Lemmy.world.

Which websites can you post to using your Reddit account besides Reddit?

JollyTreecko OP , 5 months ago

But are they different websites? I’m a bit confused because I just saw a link to what looks like a lemmy instant but the url doesn’t start with a lemmy. So is it possible for someone to make a completely different website and for me to post with the same account I have now?

Say somebody makes a website with games like Kongregate or Newgrounds, could they let me post with this same account?

Carighan , 5 months ago

Yeah essentially.

The idea is not that the “Fediverse” - or well any specific app - is a single site broken up to run in multiple servers.

Rather it’s the inverse, it’s a lot of different little websites like lemmy.world, mastodon.social, etc etc, but you can also load any foreign thread / post / account via your own (as in, where your account is) site and then comment or vote on them. There’s a degree of interoperability - the federation - between all these various websites.

In the case of instances of the same app (say all the Lemmy servers) there’s also interoperability in the search, which importantly allows you to discover content on other servers and largely pretend it might as well be on your own.

JollyTreecko OP , 5 months ago

wait I can use mastodon using this account? That’s crazy, I think I’m getting it now.

Blaze , 5 months ago

An example from Firefish (a Mastodon alternative): calckey.world/notes/9ojwvbyqsqpdvek2

originalfrozenbanana , 5 months ago

The whole point is deliberate engagement and sharing. Don’t like the content coming out of an instance? Don’t federate with them. It allows communities to stay small and focused, or grow large and be a big tent, according to their users.

Neato , 5 months ago

Still wish there was a way to block Instances instead of just users and communities for non-instance owners. I’d rather not switch instances for a slight inconvenience of having to block every community from an instance.

Blaze , 5 months ago

there was a way to block Instances

There is. I checked, your instance is on 19.2. It’s in the settings, “blocks”, last list

Neato , 5 months ago

Thanks! I didn’t realize that existed.

ReveredOxygen , 5 months ago

They only added it a couple of versions ago

odium , 5 months ago

You won’t have all the features of mastadon with a lemmy account, but here are some things that can happen.

Mastadon users can post to lemmy and kbin communities. You can reply to these posts and both lemmy and mastadon users will be able to see it. For the mastadon users, the comments look like replies on a mastadon thread.

Mastadon users can also comment on lemmy/kbin posts. You can reply to those comments, upvote/downvote them etc.

Mastadon users can follow lemmy and kbin communities. But lemmy users can’t follow mastadon users yet. Kbin users can follow mastadon users. The reason kbin is less popular than lemmy is because kbin lacks mobile apps.

noodlejetski , 5 months ago

it’s Mastodon.

half_built_pyramids , 5 months ago

Good call out. There used to be (and may still be) a scammer squatting on mastadon.com

kreynen , 5 months ago

@JollyTreecko I am reading, up voting and commenting on this thread from https://kbin.melroy.org/m/[email protected]/t/99078/What-are-the-practical-benefits-of-the-fediverse

The way I quickly explain the Fediverse to technical folks is it is like public email with voting and open trigger tracking baked in. ActivityPub is the SMTP of an ecosystem of multiple domains and clients with varying policies and features.

What is happening with Threads is very similar to when AOL started making it easier for the people within their walled garden to interact with the rest of the internet.

@Blaze @Carighan

fuckwit_mcbumcrumble , 5 months ago

But how is that a benefit to the user? Instead of one large user base there’s a bunch of tiny ones scattered about fracturing the community and inhibiting growth.

Niche communities that existed on Reddit I doubt will ever exist here, at least anywhere near the user base as they had in Reddit before it went to shit.

sab , 5 months ago

On the contrary, a bunch of scattered communities create one large user base. The people you see in this thread all come from a bunch of different websites and services. You'll see users from startrek.website discussing woodworking in communities hosted by lemmy.ca.

YourAvgMortal , 5 months ago

On top of this, someone could make an instance dedicated to that niche subject and similar topics, and you could subscribe with the account you already have somewhere else instead of having to periodically check that niche instance.

Right now the problem is finding those instances, and generally finding reliable instances that won’t suddenly go offline