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What factors do you think contributed to the "Reddit Hivemind"? How do you believe it can be avoided?

I’ve been seeing more often (and others have posted the same) that some of the elements of “Reddit etiquette” seem to be taking over here. Luckily I can still find discussion comments but it seems the jokes and general “downvote because I disagree” are slowly taking over.

So the question becomes is it the size or the functionality of the site? The people or popularity? What’s your thoughts?

edit: should I change it to Lemmy-hivemind? Exhibit A: the amount of downvotes without a single explanation (guessing it’s anything to do with Reddit being talked about).

monobot ,

I see it just as extension to “cancel culture” in IRL society. Nothing complicated just same stuff pushed from media comes to the web. Much helped by algorithms that are supporting it.

It is not only reddit, whole public internet is just an echo chamber, with no critical opinion allowed.

Every topic in current society (at least Europe+North America, I don’t know what’s happening in the rest of the world) is either black or white and no in between. Very scary place we are in currently. And people put you in some category just based on one sentence, one though, one idea.

I don’t see anything special here or on reddit that is not happening in other parts of our society.

Maybe fediverse is so clean you can see it happening live, just look at any defederation request and what they think of different opinions. Different opinion is forbidden. I never thought we will ger to this point, I believed internet will give us freedom of speech and freedom to discuss. But so many topics have become dangerous.

CanadaPlus ,

Between the Boston bomber and the APIpocalypse it seemed to me like the hive mind got a lot better, even on Reddit. You could find a lot of different perspectives, and it was rare for one that’s definitely wrong to stay on the top. Unless you just define “hive mind” as insufficiently conservative or whatever.

Tiltinyall ,

I thought they got a LOT worse after APIpocalypse. I couldn’t go anywhere on Reddit without seeing people factioned up. It was like the only approved comments were the same circlejerk as before but with the added tendency to make Reddit look good. Kind of like only saying what you heard on Reddit and nothing else. Shit got lonely quick.

CanadaPlus ,

I’ll take your word for it, lol. Lemmy’s been so good I haven’t really gone back.

intensely_human ,

Oh well thank god the wrong perspectives don’t stay at the top.

orcrist ,

We talk about it as a hive mind, but I think it is actually a problem of large numbers of users and an algorithm that needs tweaking, plus some shady mods.

You post but you’re too late, or you have a legit opinion that needs a few sub comments, but it’s too late.

Or you get trolled, you respond in a similar vein, and the mod bans you but not them, because the mod likes their opinion more. And I don’t blame mods for being soft in general, because it is a shit job. But sometimes it’s frustrating.

mindbleach ,

Or you get trolled, you respond in a similar vein, and the mod bans you but not them, because the mod likes their opinion more.

Or you added a G-rated insult after a detailed explanation of how they’re objectively wrong. Because god forbid anyone be the tiniest bit uncivil with someone going ‘oh, so you think [infuriating horseshit]?’

Remember: trolling is explicitly forbidden, but any hint of suggesting someone might be trolling is worse somehow.

DangedIfYouDid ,

In group/out group dynamics are fueled by insecurity and ignorance. Reddit (the internet/humanity) is full of people who are scared of being outcasts and do not know themselves well enough to be confident. Often for good reason because there are swathes of people who will punish them for not going along with the group. The punishments are almost always disproportionate to the transgression, and continually escalate as the in-group feels completely justified in their actions due to confirmation bias.

In the case of reddit’s main demographic these are young, typically nerdy men who have experienced being outcasts, and not a whole lot else - who now relish the thought of finally being part of the in-group. They will go far out of their way to prove they belong, even if it means handling themselves in a hypocritical manner and giving up their unique interests to mirror the majority of the group. Those who do not either leave, get labeled as contrarian (and summarily dismissed) or actually go fully contrarian (not like the other girls~~)

The entirety of modern social media being built around Trends™ is all you need to see how weak people’s identities really are. It’s part of why people who are authentically themselves (Trump, Walz) are viewed as strong depending on which side of the divide you fall on. People are so busy faking it to fit in (in fear of real consequences), they’ve outsourced their entire being to the trends of the group they mostly identify with.

It’s fully baked in to small town American identity, and even those who can see how absurd it is will still be forced to choose between unjustified torment, conformity, or leaving. One of those options is safe, the other two are risky or outright dangerous. All three options reinforce the belief of the in-group that their choice is the way it’s meant to be.

In short: people are really weak and we live in a culture that has preyed on this for centuries under the threat of violence.

Sam_Bass ,

Stop over-policing people. Just because you disagree with something someone says, doesnt mean you have a right or duty to shut them down

BonesOfTheMoon ,

I have a conspiracy theory take on it; I think Reddit is run by fascist admins trying to push a fascist ideology and that’s why it’s so toxic. I think techbros that run corporate social media platforms are all fash.

i_stole_ur_taco ,

The universal problem is that there’s no shared definition of what a downvote represents. Is it “this is spam and should be removed”? “I don’t like this”? “This doesn’t belong here”? “I want to see less of this”? “I disagree”?

That’s not even a Reddit problem - it’s innate to any social media voting apparatus. Extend it to Facebook, even. Does the laugh reaction mean I’m laughing with you or at you?

Most comments and posts I’ve downvoted have been because I accidentally swiped too far right and my upvote changed to the downvote action and I didn’t even notice. So those downvotes don’t even mean anything!

I think the right answer is to stop worrying about votes. Even if they all mean the same thing they’re still meaningless. It’s better to change your post and comment sorting setting than to try to social engineer a way out of it.

can ,

Reddiquette says

Vote. If you think something contributes to conversation, upvote it. If you think it does not contribute to the subreddit it is posted in or is off-topic in a particular community, downvote it.

13esq ,

If people followed that there would be no problem.

Unfortunately, the downvote button is mostly used as an “I disagree” / “I don’t like your opinion” button.

Vice versa, I think Reddit upvoted a lot of the same old boring memes/jokes with the idea that maybe they would benefit if they get there first then next time.

Any post related to WWII, Top comment: “I did nazi that coming” 10,000 upvotes.

It’s not that bad on Lemmy but I have noticed an up tick in non helpful very unoriginal jokes in threads with serious topics.

selokichtli ,

Someone replied to you with the expected use is the downvote button, but contrary to your comment, I believe there is a de facto use of the button and it more or less corresponds to your “I don’t like this” interpretation.

Now, they could have done something to address this issue, even completely eliminate the downvote button. I don’t think they will do it any time soon because it would affect their profit.

interdimensionalmeme ,

+1 and -1 is not representative of the full of ways you can feel about a content. This is what happens when convenience for the system outweights human expression.

Hupf ,
@Hupf@feddit.org avatar

+i

milkisklim ,

-1/12

apotheotic ,

Giving someone 1+2+3+4+5+… votes seems excessive

interdimensionalmeme ,

Normal humans would understand that by amplitude, I probably meant a x/10 score. And then the algorithm would put that in context of every other score your account has given out to properly weight relative to your baseline. Then perform sentiment analysis on that specific post relative to all the other posts you’ve passed judgement on as context and isolate your relative score with respect to that specific sentiment.

apotheotic ,

Dude, it was just a maths joke and I wasn’t even replying to you

-1/12 is the result of putting the sum of all the natural numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc) through the Riemann zeta function.

Get off your snarky high horse and treat people with kindness.

“Normal humans” good gracious.

interdimensionalmeme ,

OK sorry but it sounds like your saying “votes with values other than +1 and -1 ? Ridiculous ! What next ? downvotes of amplitude -1/12 ? Cats and dogs living together ?”

Which I assume the reason the designers of these platform only give us binary +1 and -1 expression and that’s IF they don’t take away the negative option entirely.

In my defence I plead reddit brain

interdimensionalmeme ,

Thinking scores are “added” is part of the problem. 5000 people voting 1/10 is not equal to 500 upvotes.

Malgas ,

One thing I always liked about slashdot is the ability to tag votes with things like “funny” or “informative”.

interdimensionalmeme ,

Ultimately moderators do not wish to cede any discussion shaping power to the unwashed masses.

Hotspur ,

It makes me wonder—would the dynamic change if there was only an upvote? So you could choose not to upvote, but the default action would be a neutral one, and if you liked/wanted to support/etc you could signal that.

I see tons of posts on here now that are downvoted to oblivion, because they are a legitimate article that says something a group doesn’t like. There won’t even be comments on the post. So like a Reuter article that discusses Palestinian casualties and no comments and like -20. This doesn’t seem like a super useful mechanism. Or at least, it’s just functioning today as a content preference “I don’t want to see this typed content” as opposed to “this is bad info, out of line with the community, etc.”

And despite ranking my list by either hot, or top day/six hours, I still see the downvoted posts regularly so the mechanic doesn’t even really do anything in terms of visibility. Or possibly there’s just too little content on a given community for it to get filtered out.

sir ,

Not sure if you realize, but a lemmy instance can turn off downvotes for the entire instance. So we’ll see if instances with downvotes disabled will do better.

Hotspur ,

No I didn’t know that, would be interesting to see more of them try it, just for curiositys sake.

Kit ,

Blajah doesn’t have downvotes, so I can’t downvote anyone and also can’t see if anyone downvotes me. It has helped me break free of the Reddit hivemind and truly be myself.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Moderation is a big part. Heavily libbed up mods such as the Lemmy.World ones are only allowing one perspective to be posted. Which is why the place is slowly turning into Reddit

This is done in three ways:

  • Restricting what content is allowed to be posted using made up metrics like MBFC or calling anything they don’t like an opinion piece.
  • Allowing users to insult those with differing opinions EG call them Russian bots or Trump supporters and only banning users when they insult those trolls back.
  • .World/WorldNews style just banning anyone who doesn’t have a Biden style Zionist worldview.

The centralization around .World is one of the biggest issues facing Lemmy right now.

eldavi , (edited )

i was wondering if i was the only one that felt this way; since i keep getting banned and named called on lemmy.world and shitjustworks every time i try to let newbie leftists posters know that lemmy.world doesn’t not represent the lemmyverse and that they’ll get a much better experience if they try almost any other instance.

kplaceholder ,
@kplaceholder@lemmy.ml avatar

You’re absolutely not the only one. My first Lemmy instance was .world, but I eventually left when I noticed that they were kinda manipulating their userbase to consent to an eventual defederation from .ml, on the grounds that it’s a “tankie” instance. The .world admins are really quick to ban any communist instance or community, and if all of them are banned, they just outright make shit up.

That was the red flag that made me jump ship, but honestly I don’t regret it at all. I didn’t truly realize the scope of .world manipulation until I started seeing Lemmy from a different instance.

spiderwort ,

99% love the hive, are irrationally attracted to it. This includes moderators.

Taalnazi ,

Yeah, good point. I think it’s best to have multiple instances with similar subs so you can always move over easily. People should also make their accounts on different instances and be a bit more active there.

spiderwort ,

It can’t be avoided. It’s just how most people work. The joy of belonging to the tribe and the pain of not-belonging is just too great. There are a few weirdos who can resist the urge, but they are quickly banned.

poke ,

I’ve already seen hivemind votes on some Lemmy comment threads. It’s just inevitable. Hopefully most Lemmy communities can be better about the banning thing though.

Coco ,

Users upvoting/downvoting leads to a hivemind, even if the moderation is not complicit (which it often is).

Tlaloc_Temporal ,
@Tlaloc_Temporal@lemmy.ca avatar

I like hiding votes until you’ve voted. Allowing users, communities, or instances to change how posts/comments are sorted might help too.

Clbull ,

I have a hypothesis that all the good people with a moral compass left Reddit in disgust over the API changes, and effectively being forced into using the official Reddit app. What remains of Reddit are the sociopathic assholes.

texasspacejoey ,

all the good people with a moral compass left Reddit in disgust over the API changes

All the good posts left thats for sure. Now its just a bunch of kids asking stupid questions like “should i buy a X” or “is X worth it?”… idk maybe make a decision yourself

geneva_convenience ,
@geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml avatar

If users were able to migrate their accounts that could help against centralization

gomp ,

What is that you care to preserve? Can’t you just register a new account and kill the old one? (genuinely curious)

geneva_convenience ,
@geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml avatar

Many users have stated they would like to keep their comment history and subscriptions. Move their account to a different instance. Having to start from scratch is a big hassle.

The fediverse concept is great but users are locked into the instance they create their accounts on. With so many instances it is better to just start somewhere and figure out what’s what later.

So far I am happy with my instance. But if I ever change my mind it would help if migration was simple.

Taalnazi ,

Great point, are the lemmy devs (idk if it works that way?) aware of this?

electric_nan ,

Whenever I saw someone complaining about the “hivemind” over there, they were invariably whining about people not liking their unpopular opinion on something. When you say “hivemind” you are equating anyone with that opinion to insects/drones/NPC etc. Just because you’re different doesn’t mean you’re right.

UlyssesT ,

There’s an old saying about how if everywhere smells like dogshit, it’s best to check under one’s shoe.

I think some people accuse others of being in a “hivemind” in a way that’s like they brought the Reddit with them, in particular the presumed sense of superiority over the hivemind/sheeple/“NPCs”/whatever.

Cataphract OP ,

fair point, using negative language while looking for engagement and conversation isn’t the best start. Do you have a better descriptive I can use and possibly edit the post with? (genuinely asking, I would enjoy everyone’s opinion)

electric_nan ,

I think your premise is flawed. There’s no such thing as a “hivemind” or what it implies. Opinions will exist on a spectrum of popular to unpopular depending on the community they’re posted in. I would say that those descriptors are perfectly adequate as they are.

Cataphract OP ,

I’m finding it difficult to respond because of the “popular to unpopular” description you’ve applied. I feel like by definition that in itself is a “hivemind”. So maybe like you said the entire premise is flawed. For someone wanting lemmy to succeed as a place where discussions and opinions can be shared and open, whats a positive aspect that you feel could encourage that type of engagement?

electric_nan ,

I don’t really understand what it is you’re after. Do you want a place where people only get positive reception no matter what they say? Maybe that exists in a group therapy session, but I don’t think that’s what you’re asking for. Is it?

Is it about getting down voted? Who cares? You can’t control how other people react to your opinions and you shouldn’t try. Lemmy is diverse and it is federated. Each instance and community has its own rules and culture. If you don’t find any of the communities to your particular liking, you can always start some of your own.

Cataphract OP ,

For the first part, no not a group therapy session lol. “thoughtful reception” is probably a better apt description. You can definitely have a level of control for how your opinion is received with your attitude and how you engage in a conversation. A space and how conversation is conducted usually sets a precedence, the tools available to you with how you interact with that content is another part of it.

I was just looking for conversations about this style of social platform and the known problems that seem to inflict it. I want Lemmy to stay diverse and federated, I’m seeing a concerning trend of tribalism revolving around instance membership or interaction. As you said I can start a community if I’m looking for something else, which I have done. Starting a new corner of lemmy to stretch out in has been a wonderful experience and has helped me focus on something I want to be creative and engage with instead of wandering around Lemmy “all”.

But, I can’t help but wonder if that’s the downfall. I’ve been instance hoping a lot lately, it’s amazing to see what’s been hidden that I’m not seeing and as spaces become more condensed or closed off through defederation the stark contrast between instances is only going to grow. Basically mini-reddits (the negative parts of it), instead of spaces being smaller to allow more chances to not drown out a differing opinion. So am I contributing to this or refuting it by making my own community? Do I have a chance to avoid the main opinions becoming the mindset that others want to follow when engaging or is it just an uphill battle because of the format of this social platform. A lot of really interesting and thoughtful responses in this post, exactly what I’m looking for in community discussions and there’s been barely any hate or downvotes. It’s been refreshing and given me plenty to think about.

SparrowRanjitScaur , (edited )

Communities tend to attract like minded individuals. It’s not that everyone is exactly the same, but those that are very different or have very different opinions don’t generally stay for long. That said, even within those like minded individuals there’s a wide spectrum of opinions.

For me there are a handful of topics I know I’ll get down voted for sharing, because it goes against the majority. And that’s fine, it doesn’t stop me from sharing my opinion, and I don’t really mind the downvotes. I think in general though as long as you’re able to share your opinion with nuance and self awareness, and it’s not something mean or hateful people will hear you out.

otp ,

I had some subs that I spent a lot of time in.

People would occasionally complain about the hivemind in one in particular whenever they’d get comments deleted or downvoted.

I’d tell them, “No, there’s a significant portion of the sub that agrees with you – we see these debates here often, and have plenty of people on both sides, including yours. Your comment just sucks”. Invariably, they’d have broken some rule or were just being an asshole, and mods or the downvoters didn’t like it.

Fizz ,
@Fizz@lemmy.nz avatar

It was moderation and up/down votes influencing comment order.

On reddit you are punished very harshly for downvotes. Your comment gets put at the bottom, hidden and you get rate limited so you can only comment once every 10mins. Mods also nuke threads that go against their ideals and perm ban people in those threads.

Reddit culture shifted a lot during 2015 and the site mods felt they needed to control the discourse.

I don’t know how we would fix that problem but I feel like instances and a modlog goes a long way

Zoift ,
@Zoift@hexbear.net avatar

Remove downvotes. Unironically, its a good idea. Requires people to actually engage with something if they disagree rather than just downvote and move on. Gets people talking & raises user engagement. Will be an uptick in shitflinging for a short while till all the assholes out themselves, get banned, and site culture improves from that alone.

selokichtli ,

One of my several Reddit accounts followed that principle: only upvotes allowed, no downvotes. Then, when I said that in a comment someone discussed with me how stupid they thought that practice was. They believe it was completely undesirable for Reddit, citing what happened in YouTube after they removed the downvote option. I didn’t care to understand, but that experience allowed me to develop a perennial restraint for hitting the downvote button. I use it scarcely against what I’m convinced are trolls.

eldavi ,

i’ve seen this in a few instances and i think it’s made them better

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