Not sure who you were listening to, but I seem to remember from the beginning that one of Israel’s stated goals was to remove Hamas from power. The hostages getting released was a condition for any pauses or ceasefires.
Their true goal is to erase Palestine period. Hamas could be removed tomorrow, hostages freed and that wouldn’t stop them. They would say the new regime is “backed by Hamas” or “contains remnants of Hamas” or is “influenced by Hamas” and they’ll continue. Until the international community condemns them completely for this, they will continue to their true goal.
Presumably you’re going to talk about additional aid sent since Oct 7th.
My counter-argument would be that there are more inexpensive ways to kill Palestinians than using expensive munitions, that are well within Israeli capability to attempt.
Regardless, the point of the article is Israel doesn’t need us, so we should start backing out now. Just don’t expect that to magically stop Netanyahu, who can just switch to lower-tech warfighting.
We should start backing out but israel most definitely needs us to continue. Almost all of their aerial related gear is American and a boatload of mortar and tank shells too.
You can bet that israel isn’t fending off those Iranian drone barrages anymore when America stops supplying interceptor missiles either. Hezbollah would gain the upper hand in the north too.
There was an intercept article detailing that meantioned a leaked estimate that israel would run out of ammo in around ~5 months were they not being resupplied by NA.
So, they would change tactics. They’re doing things the way they are because they can and it is advantageous for them to do so. It does not mean it is absolutely required for them to do it this way, and nothing else could possibly work. People are capable of adaptation.
There are multiple options for accomplishing goals in life, and Netanyahu’s situation is no different. He is choosing the one he finds most beneficial to him, but others do exist. It’s not like Israel cannot borrow money or raise taxes or reduce expensive expenditures. Missile barrages will kill people, sure, but not destroy the country or topple the government.
All that said, we should not be assisting what is happening over there, I think we have a moral obligation to cease, and to force him into other methods. This would not save the Gazans in the short term, Israel would not collapse nor would the food blockade lift. But it might save the Gazans in the long term by further mounting greater and greater pressure on Netanyahu and his nationalistic nut jobs.
If you step back and try to take emotion out of your consideration, Israel’s actions don’t support that statement. Israel has enough military power to have completely erased Gaza months ago, without sending in a single ground troop, and there would have been absolutely nothing Hamas could do about it.
The situation as it stands right now is basically a textbook example of why the concept of war crimes exists. Taking hostages is a war crime, as is having your fighters not wear a distinct uniform. That second one is critical here, because when that law is broken, it turns civilians into targets.
Their true goal is to erase Palestine period. If you step back and try to take emotion out of your consideration, Israel’s actions don’t support that statement. Israel has enough military power to have completely erased Gaza months ago, without sending in a single ground troop, and there would have been absolutely nothing Hamas could do about it.
“An estimated 45,000 bombs were dropped during the first 89 days of conflict (Source: Gaza Media Office). It is 505 bombings a day, 21 bombings per hour.
Gaza is razed and emptied of its inhabitants by 5 months of relentless bombing. 85% of Gaza’s population – 1.7 million people – have been forced to flee bombing and shelling.
1.5 million have taken shelter in Rafah, South Gaza, that has normally a population of 250,000 inhabitants. “
^for a nice update, Israel is now murdering everyone in Rafa too.
It is crystal clear you don’t know what you are talking about, Israel has dropped a nearly unprecedented amount of bombs on a tiny area and for no other reason than to erase Palestinians from the landscape of their homes.
It takes a long time to murder an entire city, especially when the world is watching. Israel is doing it as absolutely fast as it can however.
At least 20 out of 22 hospitals identified by CNN in northern Gaza were damaged or destroyed in the first two months of Israel’s war against Hamas, from October 7 to December 7, according to a review of 45 satellite images and around 400 videos from the ground, as well as interviews with doctors, eyewitnesses and humanitarian organizations. Fourteen were directly hit, based on the evidence collected and verified by CNN and analyzed by experts.
The World Health Organization (WHO) said on December 21 that no hospitals were functioning in northern Gaza and injured patients who were unable to be moved were “waiting to die.” According to the WHO, as of January 10, six hospitals in the north were partially functioning.
The International Eye Hospital, in the Tal al-Hawa neighborhood of Gaza City, was damaged in early October. It was no longer standing by October 12, according to satellite imagery.
Balsam Hospital, in the west of Beit Hanoun, was reduced to rubble by November 3. Craters consistent with 2,000-pound bombs were visible near both medical facilities.
……
If you step back and try to take emotion out of your consideration
No I will not take my emotion out of my consideration, the difference between you and me is that my emotions are a warning light indicator for when my ideologies and beliefs are wrong and I have strayed too far off the course of love and empathy for others. My emotions connect me with the immense amount of suffering happening in the Palestinian genocide, even if it is just a little bit that connection categorically denies adopting a heinous lack of empathy or care for the Palestinians people as you have.
My emotions are what makes me a wholistic and intellectually consistent person and to be honest it kind of alarms me when people like you seem to have everything backwards like this and treat their emotions as superfluous entities to be discarded in favor of “cold hard rational analysis”.
Russia can end this war tomorrow. Any and all deaths are on them. Hell, if Russia would just stay out of their neighbours business, there would have been no civil war in the first place.
but then blame Palestinians for defending themselves - so kidnapping settlers is a war crime - but ethnically cleansing and bombing children isn’t?
so if I came into your house, squatted in your living room and locked you up in your closet - it’s your fault if you break out and attack me? most sane warcock guzzler ever…
nobody is cheering for the “good guys” - but when one side is actively displacing the other and your response is to just let it happen because of both sides being bad it loses the nuance of the conflict and the people just living there. especially when we’re on a thread about one side asking about a military ceasefire in exchange for the only leverage it has - while the other refuses and actively chooses to continue it’s current onslaught.
if you actually care about lives you wouldn’t argue pedantic points about which side commits war crimes but instead influence policy towards there being less war crimes in general. (maybe starting from the ones causing the most damage…)
because when that law is broken, it turns civilians into targets
Have you absolutely no shame? Or are you naïvely trying to sound authoritative? Unlawful combatants existing in an area, does not mean that civilians are greenlight for deliberate targeting.
Nor does it excuse the atrocious and callous 1:10,1:20,1:100 ‘acceptable collateral damage’ Hamas:Civilian ratio the IDF has self assigned and modified up and down based on international outcry.
for every junior Hamas operative that Lavender marked, it was permissible to kill up to 15 or 20 civilians… in the event that the target was a senior Hamas official with the rank of battalion or brigade commander, the army on several occasions authorized the killing of more than 100 civilians in the assassination of a single commander
I’m talking about what actually happens, not what is “right” or “allowable”. In a warzone, if your enemy looks like civilians, then civilians start looking like the enemy. That’s the reason why not wearing uniforms became a war crime in the first place. It drives up civilian casualties.
Yes, because in a war, you totally have plenty of time to stop and do a thorough investigation into which one of the five guys within sight just shot at you. Everyone will just pause everything while you figure out who you are supposed to shoot back at.
It was a metaphor to continue a conversation about why having your combatants looking like and mixed in with the civilian population is bad. We’re talking in the abstract, not literal. Keep up.
Or maybe, here’s a thought: You stop reacting capriciously, and asses the situation to make an informed decision for shoot/no-shoot. Retreat to safety and investigate. Israel likes to flout their ‘world class’ ISR and HUMINT capabilities and superior and accurate weapons, but then keeps making “tragic mistakes” that kill civilians, reporters, and aid workers. Hamas et al are definitely not respecting the laws of war, but that’s not license to turn neighborhoods into free-fire zones.
Of course that requires the forces involved respecting civilian life and showing restraint.
Statistics for civilian to combatant death are like 9-1 and 7-1, there’s having no choice and then there’s committing warcrimes out of convenience. Bibi says its juuust 2-1, so according to him the majority of Hamas combatants are women and children right?
You know, we’d have better and more accurate statistics about casualties on the ground if the IDF weren’t actively trying to keep a journalist/aid worker kill high score too. You don’t have to support Hamas or the Palestinians but please don’t try to justify the IDF’s actions.
I’m not justifying anything. I’m saying “Hamas is commiting war crimes and that is bad.” That is all I’m saying. There’s been no justifiable actions on either side for decades now.
Israel actions do support that. What else would happen if Israel completely erased Palestine in a few months? Do you think a single government would support them? The US would break ties overnight .
Genocide doesn’t mean instant or even quick eradication. It can by systematic and slow. Calculated, walking a fine line so they can call it something else. It can even be eugenics, stopping future generations.
There are people in Israel who want to iradicate Palestine, and are very open about it. Some Israeli gov officials are saying similar things. Anyone in the government with half a brain isn’t going to openly state they want to bomb a country out of existence. But we can look at the evidence and see that thie goal is to take that land for themselves and drive out the native population.
But khamaaas just needs to hand over the hostages and the war will end! The ZioBots have been screaming this for the last 8 months it must be true! Surely they wouldn’t gaslight people into saying this was never said!
And I’m sure the Israelis will be quite fond of this stance that flips the bird at literally the single part of this whole debacle that they themselves are interested in
For anyone interested, Wikipedia has a page on the current hostage situation and some history.
According to Wikipedia, one of the “deals” Hamas has offered Israel was that Isreal release all Palestinian prisoners. That would be thousands of prisoners in exchange for hostages Hamas took on the 7th of October.
The difference is due to the military control Israel has over the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Palestinians are tried in a military court with no civil rights or representation, tortured into false confessions, and incarcerated with routine torture, sexual abuse, and denial of basic medical care. That includes hundreds if not thousands of children.
That’s the Wikipedia bias. The vast majority of pages are written and maintained by a small number of people with a Western Centrist perspective, which tends to be more conservative. You start to notice it more once you see it for the first time.
Khalil al-Hayya, a member of the group’s political bureau, said that Hamas “is serious about releasing Israeli captives within the framework of an agreement” that also ensures the release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails.
So to summarize: The Palestinian prisoners are referred to as prisoners by Hamas. The non combatants taken hostage by Hamas are not referred to as prisoners by Hamas.
Whether you think the terrorist organisation Hamas are tainted by western bias or not is a different discussion that I’m not interested in taking part in.
Khalil al-Hayya, a member of the group’s political bureau, said that Hamas “is serious about releasing Israeli captives within the framework of an agreement” that also ensures the release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails.
So to summarize: The Palestinian prisoners are referred to as prisoners by Hamas. The non combatants taken hostage by Hamas are not referred to as prisoners by Hamas.
Whether you think the terrorist organisation Hamas are paid off by Isreal or not is a different discussion that I’m not interested in taking part in.
This war never was about getting hostages released.
The hostages gave the Israeli government a very nice and convenient excuse to do what they always wanted to do but never could.
It’s the same as bush with 9/11 invading Iraq even though Osama bin Laden was known not to be there. He literally said he didn’t care about bin Laden, let’s go get Iraq’s oil!
The Israeli government wants the Palestinian lands and the Palestinians, apparently, all dead or gone. This reminds me of some other very large and sad event in history, the name eludes me for a second…
So far as I’m concerned Netanyahu and his government are as bad as the German Nazis of World War 2 who tried to exterminate them. They’re now doing the same things to the Palestinians, while simultaneously swearing up and down that they’re not doing that, but really, who believes them anymore?
Additionally Netanyahu is a criminal in his own country and is desperately clinging to power so he doesn’t go to prison.
The real victims here are all the non-combatants on both sides, Palestinian and Israeli both. Hamas are animals who use the people they claim to fight for as human shields, and the Israeli government and military are genocidal assholes who just want to exterminate the Palestinians once and for all and take their land. The best thing that could happen here is that Hamas ceases to exist, Netanyahu, his government, and the elements of their military who are okay with killing Palestinian civilians all go away, and Palestine is declared a free and sovereign country, and this shit never happens again.
Slightly out of date now since Israel has, apparently, accepted the deal Biden’s administration came up with. They’re bitching about it, but they say they have accepted it.
I don’t put too much faith in polls anymore. The democrats have over performed in every election since 2018.
He definitely has a thin-ass tightrope to walk with the democratic tent. What easily could be 5 parties are lumped into one because of the two party system.
It definitely will. Though many have given up on him already, at least he will be relieved of not being able to go anywhere without Genocide Joe chants.
In hindsight we can now confidently say that Biden should have stopped this far earlier.
Now if Biden actually forced a solution such as the two state one the Palestinians are asking for he can definitely get voters back.
Also last time I checked Benzion Mileikowski still rejects a permanent ceasefire until Hamas is “eradicated”
Well, when even your own citizens are crying out for the government to stop they may want to listen. Any use protection as a valid excuse when your citizens are wanting it to end.
An aide said they would agree, nothing has been done yet, and the conditions are not clear.
For all we know this is israel preparing to blame an aid for a misunderstanding, while they keep killing Palestinians and Biden gets to look good in the media.
How many terrorists have to be at the table? Itamar Ben-Gvir is a convicted terrorist. Should the cabinet adjourn every time a Kehanist or two shows up? Or does it require a 5/6 ratio before guilt by association kicks in?
Don’t let terrorists live in your home. Leave if you have to.
I’m sure that would have been very easy for the well over 10,000 children who have been killed. Especially the babies.
I have said this multiple times and I will continue to say it- if you have to kill thousands of children in the name of protecting your nation, maybe your nation isn’t worth protecting.
On one hand I can sympathize with that sentiment, on the other hand, I can’t imagine the horrors that would have occurred if the Axis powers had been allowed to conquer the world.
Ah, mostly that the Allied forces were fighting to protect their own nations, not just against the Axis powers. In doing so, they also caused death and destruction to innocents.
Again, doesn’t change what I said- if you have to kill thousands of children based on the claim that you’re protecting your nation- something the Axis powers themselves did- then maybe your nation isn’t worth protecting.
if you have to kill thousands of children based on the claim that you’re protecting your nation
My point is that this was something the Allied powers did as well, and they were the only thing that stopped the Axis powers. The scale and intent could be argued, but even though military conflicts are extremely horrific, I don’t always see a viable alternative.
To be clear, I’m also not saying that the specifics of the Israel-Palestine conflict are the same as WWII.
Those kids have parents who are making that choice.
Every country who has gone to war in the last century has killed children. The US, Canada, the UK, Germany, France, even Australia…
Civilian casualties are not possible to avoid unless both sides are willing to fight in a completely separate space, and that doesn’t happen in modern warfare.
Hamas isn’t using civilians as human shields. At least, not at scale. Israel and its western co-conspirators manufacture evidence to use to justify the genocide, but none of that evidence is concrete. It’s just intelligence people making baseless claims.
Times of Israel has such immense bias in favor of the IDF and the fascist apartheid regime, and such lax fact checking on the one subject people outside Israel read it for that it’s not AT ALL credible and MBFC, being basically the hobby of a conservative Zionist, rates it left of center and highly factual 🤦
I mean, the Gaza Health Ministry already fails to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants when reporting casualties, so does it really matter what Hamas’ political or military branches claim?
Please stop flagging this thread as misinformation. Whether or not you believe that the Al Jazeera journalist had any responsibility here, the article is about them denying it.
Because Al Jazeera denies it. That is a fact. If you’re saying that the Times is claiming Al Jazeera denies a rumor the Times started themselves, it does not make it any less factual that Al Jazeera denies it. And the article is about Al Jazeera denying it.
timesofisrael.com
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