One side is doing Genocide and colonialism. The other side just tries to live in peace. Wanna know how they got peace in South Africa? They kicked out the white nationalist government
My intent was not to put equal blame on both sides. But if Israel wants peace and good relations, it won’t happen unless the people of Palestine are agreeable to the terms. And just accepting some cease fire or peace agreement doesn’t imply they like the terms, it just implies they prefer those terms over being bombed and invaded. They will need terms they can be happy with otherwise there will be another terror attack down the line and the cycle of violence might start up again.
Realistically, I don’t think this situation will be resolved in a way that eliminates violence completely. But they might be able to get to a place where they can agree to blame individuals involved in the violence rather than blaming the other group.
And yeah, as long as the current regimes have power, it will be hard to separate the intent of the individuals from the groups.
I would like to remind everyone of the current year and that in this year a nation of 90 million people are ruled by a council of shamans. You know just in case anyone was kinda happy that this was isn’t going to explode even more so.
I think this is something a lot of people don't realize. If Israel showed any weakness after the Hamas terrorist attacks, it is likely Iran, Lebanon, who else knows who, would attack as well.
Israel was put in an impossible situation and did what it had to do to protect itself.
Lol did I say that? Was Israel ignoring the intelligence about the attack justified? Is murdering children justified? Is stealing people’s homes justified?
I'm talking about Israel's response to being attacked by terrorists. Terrorists who use civilians as human shields and have no respect for anyone's lives. Terrorists who have very clearly stated they will attack Israel again.
Of course Israel is going to defend its people and do everything they can to stop future attacks.
I'm not saying what has happened in the west bank is good. I am saying that it does not justify terrorism.
I’m not saying what has happened in the west bank is good. I am saying that it does not justify terrorism.
Anyone who steals someone’s home is a terrorist. Maybe if they weren’t forcing families out of their homes, they would have had better security at the border fence. It’s almost like they wanted it to happen.
Gaza has been under military occupation by Israel since 1970 (including after the disengagement in 2005; the blockade is very much a form of military occupation). Being attacked by the people you're occupying is the obvious outcome, setting aside the specific details of the attack because I know Hamas did some unspeakable things in Oct 7. If Israel wanted to protect themselves they'd stop their occupation of Palestine and retreat to 1967 borders.
“We make peace with enemies,” Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin reassured a concerned citizen shortly after the September 13, 1993 conclusion of the Israel-PLO Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements (DOP, or Oslo I). “I would like to remind you that the [March 1979] peace treaty with Egypt had many opponents, and this peace has held for 15 years now.”[1] True enough. But peace can only be made with enemies who have been either comprehensively routed (e.g., post-World War II Germany and Japan) or disillusioned with the use of violence—not with those who remain wedded to conflict and war. And while Egyptian president Anwar Sadat was a “reformed enemy” eager to extricate his country from its futile conflict with Israel, Yasser Arafat and the PLO leadership viewed the Oslo process not as a springboard to peace but as a “Trojan Horse” (in the words of prominent PLO official Faisal Husseini) designed to promote the organization’s strategic goal of “Palestine from the [Jordan] river to the [Mediterranean] sea”—that is, a Palestine in place of Israel.
Arafat admitted as much five days before signing the accords when he told an Israeli journalist, “In the future, Israel and Palestine will be one united state in which Israelis and Palestinians will live together”[3]—that is, Israel would cease to exist. And even as he shook Rabin’s hand on the White House lawn, the PLO chairman was assuring the Palestinians in a pre-recorded, Arabic-language message that the agreement was merely an implementation of the organization’s “phased strategy” of June 1974. This stipulated that the Palestinians would seize whatever territory Israel surrendered to them, then use it as a springboard for further territorial gains until achieving the “complete liberation of Palestine.”
Almost every Palestinian around wants a one-state solution. That's bad because? A one-state solution is better than a two-state solution in every way possible, except in securing Israel's Jewish majority state where they can practice apartheid.
It’s bad because if your goal is peace, it’s a non-starter. No moral judgement about either side, that’s just how it is. Maybe if we get peace through a two-state solution, 100 years from now there might be a chance for unification, but right now the wounds are too deep.
I mean Palestinians (including Hamas, believe it or not) are currently working towards (or would like to, but the other side is a genocidal state that has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo) a two-state solution, but the fact that one state encompassing all of Palestine is no secret. The article you linked uses that as a proof that the Oslo process was doomed from the start. That's unadulterated bullshit. The Oslo peace process was the closest the conflict ever came to ending, until a Zionist terrorist assassinated Rabin. There's just no way that can be blamed on the Palestinian side.
I agree, but the simple fact is Arafat and other Palestinian leaders were telling the people they were negotiating with one thing, and their own people another thing. The simple fact is neither side has ever wanted anything but “from the river to the sea”. The Oslo process wasn’t necessarily doomed, and it was the closest to peace we’ve been, but it would have been (if it had succeeded) far from the end of the peace process.
Iran or Israel’s plan? Iran is well known for enlisting terrorists to do their dirty work for them, and Israel is probably eyeing up some border territory they can grab.
Apparently the sentiment among settlers is that the “natural borders of the Jewish Homeland” extend from the Nile to the Euphrates.
Iran and Hamas just wanted to stop Saudi Arabia from establishing diplomatic ties with Israel, further marginalizing Iran in the region. They succeeded there, and the majority of the retribution fell on the citizens of Gaza.
Iran got everything they wanted and came out clean.
not with an american battle group in the area, certainly. there may have been a few others that biden wanted to send message to, but if so, it was by sending an open letter to Iran.
Yeah, that what it's there for. It's not that intimidating to Hamas, the USA doesn't do much at the moment. They shot down some rockets, but ultimately are "just" a cocked gun to anyone in the region thinking about entering this war.
I don’t think Iran needed Dark Brandon to remind them a direct conflict with Israel would be a stupid risk for them. Iran’s strategy was always to use proxy groups to attack Israel even when Israel attacked Iranian territory. If they won’t start a war as a response to a direct aggression it’s pretty obvious they would never risk themselves trying to save what they see as disposable tools¹.
¹ if you disagree with this assessment, look at who contributes more foreign aid for Palestine, even when accounting for the donor’s GDP
There's got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza. I hope the international community can come together to find a way. I definitely wouldn't leave it to Israel lol.
It probably involves with allying with the PLO or some more secular faction of Palestinians, and Egypt. But they'd need to give something to them or else no one has a reason to support them unless they have some victories they can point to.
you deny what "palestinians" have given themselves generationally to achieve with hamas, pij, hezbollah, the plo. you deny "palestinians" their personhood in their singular terrorist fight against jews, and for the destruction of israel, the communal refusal to live in peace, when you think there is any daylight at all whatsoever between the "palestinian" community and jew raping, slaughtering, and burning islamic terrorists.
who do you think makes up these groups, whose sons, and husbands and grandfathers do you think these fucking terrorist animals are, where do you think they sleep at night, whose table do you think they eat at?
Each of these individual elements is not in and of itself fascist, but you have to worry when they’re all grouped together, when honest conservatives are lured into fascism by people who tell them, “Look, it’s an existential fight. I know you don’t accept everything we do. You don’t accept every doctrine. But your family is under threat. Your family is at risk. So without us, you’re in peril.” Those moments are the times when we need to worry about fascism.
There's got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza. I hope the international community can come together to find a way. I definitely wouldn't leave it to Israel lol.
Israel is going to try its best. Nobody else is going to touch this with a ten foot pole. Most of the international community isn't even willing to condemn Hamas, let alone go in there and get rid of them. Israel literally calls them up in the buildings they're going to bomb and says "please evacuate this building by this time!" You can't make that shit up.
If Egypt or the UN wants to take care of Gaza after the war, and actually make sure they don't get weapons, and actually de-radicalize them (current schools in Gaza are not great at deradicalization), you name it, I'm sure Israel would be on board with that. They didn't blockade Gaza for fun, blockades are expensive. But burying the dead from the constant attacks of a Hamas with infinite weaponry is fucking worse.
What a strange concentration camp that was, where Palestinians were able to go into Israel to work every day, travel abroad, etc. Almost like most other national borders (except for Schengen), where you need a passport and maybe even a visa to enter. Or like the US, where you’re not allowed in if they even suspect you’re going to work. Also, let’s not forget the terrorists that constantly threaten to kill your citizens. Would you let them into your house?
So which is it, are they being allowed freedom of movement into Israel to work with identification, or you don’t want them in because they’re terrorists who threaten to kill civilians?
All I’ve seen is that some people were allowed in and out, but it isn’t exactly a porous border, identification requirements are strict, getting the necessary approval and documentation is difficult in a place without a functioning state. And you can’t just make rules and distance yourself from the consequences of them just because people are unable to meet the requirements of those rules, you have to actually look at what the effect is.
I said you can’t illegally detain people without charge, not that you can’t take prisoners. A large number of Palestinians are held without charge in Israelz and in the past few weeks that number has sky rocketed with many arbitrary detention.
My goalpost went far away from here because this is a trolly conversation getting nowhere. It’s my fault for replying with trolling to trolling comments.
If Egypt or the UN wants to take care of Gaza after the war, and actually make sure they don't get weapons, and actually de-radicalize them (current schools in Gaza are not great at deradicalization), you name it, I'm sure Israel would be on board with that.
Basically turn them into a mini West bank; people with no means to defend themselves, constantly getting attacked by settlers and the police. Make them believe that this is normal and that they shouldn't defend themselves on your way out.
There are no settlements in Gaza. In 2005, there were no settlements, there was no blockade, there was nothing but an opportunity for peace, and then, they elected Hamas.
If you're afraid that Egypt or the UN is going to invite settlers in, that Egyptian police or the UN police are going to attack them, you might want to reevaluate your world view.
Let's discuss another place inside of Palestine where there is an opportunity for peace; the West bank ruled by the Fatah government, which recognizes "Israel". They also have no weapons that they can realistically use against settlers and the invading army.
Here's what happens in the West bank, settlements exist in the West bank, settlers murder people in the West bank, and the police are protecting settlers while they're doing it.
Gaza once was under the control of the PLO and Fatah, and there could've been peace, if not for Isn'trael opting to keep building settlements, encouraging people who're being forced out of their homes to pick the more violent approach of Hamas. Which unlike negotiating with an occupying force, did get them to dismantle their disgusting settlements and leave to avoid losing more soldiers.
You're dramatically oversimplifying the West Bank. It's a military occupation, I'm not going to pretend it's going well, but it's going much better than Gaza, and peace talks there have been far more serious. The Olmert proposal was an exceedingly generous proposal, and the reason Abbas didn't engage because, knowing that Hamas still had enough power that he couldn't promise peace, not even with East Jerusalem, and especially not with any kind of land swaps. The core problem right now is just that Netanyahu's government doesn't actually want to make the situation better (and a lot of his —but that problem will resolve itself by Israel's next election. His already low approval ratings have hit the gutter, and his coalition might not last much longer, although they might stick together while the war is going on.
Hamas doesn’t exist in a vacuum though. Most people don’t just wake up one day and think “hmm, terrorism sounds good to me today!” There’s always going to be a minority of people who end up having extremist views and committing violence, but a functioning state is able to keep those people under control. The fact that Netanyahu has no motivation to make the situation better is directly what causes this situation where people help Hamas out of desperation. They can’t wait for Israelis to get their act together and elect someone who is strongly motivated to make life better for Palestineans, they see that they have to live on the other side of a wall where only they have to deal with that level of poverty and violence on a regular basis and it’s unfair. If you put yourself in their shoes you’d get it too. That’s not a justification at all, it’s just empathy for their situation.
I can also empathize with Israelis who want revenge. People in Israel expect safety and don’t think of their country as a war-zone. It’s easy to think of the problem as entirely one-sided when you don’t have to deal with it, but it’s just not the case.
You've lost the support of the international community and even the US is distancing itself from the approach you are taking. This is a fools errand to try to extract a part of a society by direct force (see Vietnam, Afghanistan <-two different super powers made that mistake). What this will be is an excuse to murder as judge, jury and executioner as you move to further subjugate a civilian population behind closed doors. Literal closed walls in Gaza's case. These kids have grown up knowing nothing but what the adults tell them and looking at the walls that keep them in.
“We spoke bluntly and made it clear to the prime minister in no uncertain terms that a comprehensive deal based on the ‘everyone for everyone’ principle is a deal the families would consider, and has the support of all of Israel,” Meirav Leshem Gonen, mother of Romi Gonen, who was kidnapped from the Supernova dance festival, said on behalf of the families in a news conference following the meeting.
Netanyahu was asked about such a deal at his Saturday news conference, and acknowledged he discussed the option with the families.
“I think that elaborating on this will not help achieve our goal. In the meeting with the families, I felt emotionally helpless,” he said.
So maybe not everything. Please don't judge Dan for not responding, He blocked me an hour ago as he didn't like my response to the justification of the 3,000 children that have been bombed to death in Gaza.
He probably blocked you because you argue in bad faith and lie about your historical examples - like pretending Vietnam wasn’t a war of two established, professional militaries just as Korea was.
“You name it, I’m sure Israel would be on board with that” How about just releasing the Prisoners for the hostages and going home?
This, for instance, is an insane proposition and you throw it out like it’s the obvious good choice.
If you don’t understand, from the events currently at play, that Israel is most definitely not going to exchange their prisoners for hostages, then I question if you’ve been paying attention.
Sorry the Cornell thing hurt your feelings so much, but it’s weird for you to follow me around
I mean, some of those 1,000 prisoners were active in that recent oct.7 massacre, so I guess that Israel learned from its mistakes. As much as it pains them, they can’t effort giving Hamas forces, as they’ll regret it tenfold later.
If Israel was truly worried about regretting it later they wouldn’t be growing a whole new generation of people that have every reason to hate them. Their actions over the decades speak FAR louder than the words they use to seem like they are trying, as does the body count of innocents.
For more than the last decade Israel spent 0 efforts on raising the Gaza population and completely left them to run their own educational/inner governmental funding. That proved to be the worst mistake they could ever do, as that educational program is pure hate fuel for religious extremists and the government funding (which btw is a lot of funding from foreigners) was used for rockets and anti-tank ammunition instead of safe houses for civilians. Heck, the only safe zones are the underground tunnels, which are only used for Hamas fighters.
All that means is that Israel should’ve either completely hammer down on stuff going in, and truly be like china murdering muslims, or completely run the region themselves, which is basically colonialism. Which option is good? None. Who can be blamed for that? The Palestinians leaders.
Don’t get me wrong, Israel’s leaders also chose a very bad option of leaving it alone and letting it grow into a monster, but let’s face it - they had no good options on what to do with Gaza. So blaming everything that’s happening purely on Israel, is just unfair. What could they have done to prevent this?
Not doing any of this stuff would’ve meant a Palestinian state in Gaza led by Hamas.
Such a state would’ve killed many more jews.
Is it really that hard to see such obvious facts? What action has Palestinian ever done to warrant faith from the Israeli side that they wouldn’t get massacres if Palestinians had a state.
It’s as simple as that. Make Israelis not feel threatened, make a state. Do make Israelis feel threatened, get oppression.
And no other country in the world would do differently when feeling threatened. Some would do actual genocide and have 2 million dead.
You know who doesn't think it's insane? The families of the the hostages who I quote directly underneath that who say that it has the support of all of Israel. Are you calling them liars? Are you disparaging them and saying they're insane? This is the opposite of diplomacy, as you say.
Yeah I think someone whose family member is fucking kidnapped is not thinking rationally. Of course they will support literally anything to get their kidnapped relative back
“We came with an unequivocal demand that military action takes into account the fate of the hostages and the missing, and that any move considered will take into account the well-being of our loved ones,” Gonen said on behalf of the families.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu received sharp criticism after he accused security chiefs in a now-deleted social media post of failing to warn him about the impending Hamas attack prior to October 7.
First sentence of your article suggests that he regrets such a post. So… Yeah.
I mean, exchanging prisoners means freeing those who massacred on oct.7, and come on, Israel is not that stupid to let them run free again. That exchange will bite them tenfold in years to come if they do it (and they realized it now, hence they don’t agree to it)
Israel has killed dozens of Hamas leaders, but way more fighters. There's no way to know exactly how many, since Hamas doesn't even pretend to put out numbers that separate civilians from combatants.
The 8k number also comes from Hamas, the same people who said that 500 people died in the hospital explosion (and blamed it on Israel). Go see the estimates literally anybody else made. All of these numbers come from Hamas.
That 8k number also includes all deaths, not just at the hands of Israel, but at the hands of PIJ and Hamas themselves. Hundreds of their rockets have landed in Gaza, and they've been known to execute their own. They really love to blame Israel for these deaths, though—not just in the case of the hospital when they can make up a specific cause, but in the cases you've never heard of where, oh, there's rubble, what caused it, don't worry.
The death of each Palestinian civilian is a tragedy. Hamas provoked the war, Hamas is killing as many of them as anybody. Israel is engaged in remarkably precise targeting of enemy combatants and places an entirely unprecedented effort into warning them when they're about to strike.
This is urban warfare. This is what Hamas called for.
U.N. and other international agencies say there can be small discrepancies between the final casualty numbers and those reported by the Gaza health ministry straight after attacks, but that they broadly trust them.
“We continue to include their data in our reporting and it is clearly sourced,” the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) said in a statement to Reuters.
“It is nearly impossible at the moment to provide any UN verification on a day-to-day basis.”
Dr Mike Ryan, Executive Director of the Geneva-based World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Programme, said last week figures released by both sides “may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis, but they grossly reflect the level of death and injury on both sides of that conflict.”
New York-based Human Rights Watch also says the casualty figures have generally been reliable, and that it has not found big discrepancies in its verification of past strikes on Gaza.
“It’s worth noting that the numbers that are coming out since October 7th are generally consistent or within logic for the scale of killings one would expect, given the intensity of bombardment in such a densely populated area,” Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine Director at Human Rights Watch, said.
“Those numbers are in line with what one might expect, given what we’re seeing on the ground through testimony, through satellite imagery and otherwise,” he told Reuters.
The 8k number also comes from Hamas, the same people who said that 500 people died in the hospital explosion (and blamed it on Israel). Go see the estimates literally anybody else made. All of these numbers come from Hamas.
You know this is propaganda right? That number never came from Hamas go find them quoting it as fact, I’ll wait.
The number came from an interview with a doctor right after the attack and it was mistranslated on Aljazeera. Other news agencies never fact checked it and ran with the number attributing it to Hamas.
But Hamas just knew in less than 20 minutes, somehow, that it was 500.
The number came from an interview with a doctor right after the attack and it was mistranslated on Aljazeera.
Does the doctor work for Hamas?
Gee, I wonder how a Hamas employed doctor managed to count 500 dead bodies within 20 minutes. Israel is still trying to tally its dead, but Hamas managed to pronounce 500 people dead just in time to falsely accuse Israel of attacking the hospital on Al Jazeera?
The debacle prompted criticism even from allies who said Netanyahu had facilitated Hamas’s grip on Gaza as part of a strategy to divide Palestinians.
“Since coming to power in 2009, Netanyahu has built up Hamas as an alternative to the Palestinian Authority,” wrote Yoav Limor, the military affairs correspondent for Israel Hayom, a normally pro-Netanyahu newspaper. “He was warned countless times that this was a dangerous plan: instead of bolstering the pragmatic elements, he strengthened those that will never recognize Israel’s existence.”
How are they calling to warn anyone? The entire communications infrastructure is so compromised that ambulances are literally just driving towards the sound of explosions rather than being directed.
There’s a lot of ways, I’ve seen leaflet drops, radio (windup fm radios are widely used), telephone calls (mobile) and drones with speakers being used but I’m sure they’re also using other methods too
Well no you still need infrastructure for mobile. And there are no reports of drones with speakers. The IDF method was dropping a dud first and they aren’t doing that anymore because the mission intensity is too high to sustain it.
Well, Gaza's internet and phone services are up again, but if you'd been paying attention, you know that, in addition, they've also been using roof knocking, and also dropping flyers, and every other fucking thing they can manage to warn civilians on every time scale. If you have any other idea how Israel should disable rocket facilities, feel free.
Preferably with something smaller than a 2,000 lb bomb. And a flyers bearing a general warning to evacuate does not count when you won’t let them through your lines. It’s no different to the school bully holding their victim down and “warning” them they’re going to get hit.
And even if the Internet is back now, how did they warn anyone in the same 48 hours they bombed even more than before?
And no. They aren’t doing knocking. That’s something they do in limited operations. Not now.
It shouldn’t be left to Israel but nobody wants to do it, so we get this cluster fuck. Other surrounding nations can help and take in Palestinian refugees/stamp out Hamas, but the truth is that they don’t actually care about Palestinians either.
but the truth is that they don’t actually care about Palestinians either.
They sure do. They care about keeping them in refugee camps, using Israel as a scapegoat for their own war crimes and other bullshit, refusing to let them work, often revoking their citizenship in the rare cases it's been granted! Heaven forbid a third-generation descendant of a Palestinian immigrant be allowed to work in Jordan, or own a permanent home.
As a retired Major-General explained on TV over here the other day, Hamas is a Insurrection Movement, which are made of 3 parts, the Political Side, the Military Side and Popular Support.
Want to destroy Hamas, destroy its popular support side.
The current indiscriminate bombing of Palestinians will never destroy it because not only does it increase the Popular Support for any Insurrection Movement against Israel, it also adds to the number of people who would join the military wing of such a movement (i.e. directly put their lives at risk), especially because for all the parroting of Israel’s “human shields” propaganda, what the people there see is Israel choosing to bomb and kill their family, so even those who detest Hamas will detest Israel much much more and with good reason.
Unless Israel is willing to commit a Nazi-sized Genocide (which I suspect its current leadership would do if they thought they could get away with, hence their talk of a “second Nakba”), the solution will never be more violence.
You “know” that because the very people bombing civilians told you so.
Only a very special kind of person would trust killers when they provide unverifiable “justifications” for their killings that just so happen to blame somebody else and excuse their actions.
Here’s their own words, calling all Palestinians to be martyrs
Article 8 The Hamas document reiterates the Muslim Brotherhood’s slogan of "Allah is its goal, the Prophet is the model, the Qur’an its constitution, jihad its path, and death for the sake of Allah “is the loftiest of its wishes.” avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
From wikipedia because I don’t want to read the whole charter. original charter linked below the quote (and on the Wikipedia page)
Here’s a phone call showing the greater scale of how seriously they take viewing every Palestinian as a martyr, by forcing people to remain in the North at gunpoint
On Saturday, Israel Defense Forces (IDF) spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari issued what he labeled an “urgent military advisory” video message on X, warning Gazans that the military is set to “neutralize” Hamas with “precision and intensity.”
“For your immediate safety we urge all residents of Northern Gaza and Gaza City to temporarily relocate south. This is a temporary measure. Moving back to Northern Gaza will be possible once the intense hostilities end,” he said.
Since the message, many took to X to raise questions and concerns related to the communications blackout Gaza residents are facing and how they’re expected to hear the urgency to relocate.
Mehdi Hasan, host of The Mehdi Hasan Show on MSNBC, asked, “How are Palestinians in Gaza, who have had their electricity and internet communications cut off by the Israeli military, supposed to hear/receive this ‘urgent’ message from the Israeli military?”
Lindsey Hilsum, international editor at British broadcaster Channel 4 News, questioned the message by posting to X, “Hard to see how this ‘urgent message’ will get to the citizens of Gaza as the Israelis cut internet and mobile phone.”
Ayman Mohyeldin, host of AYMAN on MSNBC, noted the IDF’s use of English to issue their message rather than using Arabic.
“The spokesman for the Israeli military is speaking in English, rather than in Arabic, to the residents of Gaza in order to deliver to them an urgent message on social media, a day after the Israeli military cut off all telephone and internet communications to the people of Gaza,” he wrote on X>.
Netanyahu said “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’," .
If you were actually concerned about killing someone with your airstrike, wouldn’t you warn them in the fucking language they speak, in a way that actually reaches them??? I’m so fucking baffled at the psychology behind excusing what is going on.
Lmao. No. You don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. An Infantry fight in an urban area sucks but it’s far less destructive than leveling entire blocks with explosives.
Dude. They started using drones because there’s no congressional hearing when a drone is shot down in some random African country. But you lose one green beret and there’s years of hearings. That’s why we went to drones.
The current indiscriminate bombing of Palestinians
The only people indiscriminately bombing Palestinians are PIJ and Hamas. They spray and pray with rockets, hundreds of them have landed in Gaza.
Israel's strikes are the most targeted fucking strikes you've ever seen a military do, and they actively warn the people in those buildings with everything from roof knocking to a phone call.
for all the parroting of Israel’s “human shields” propaganda, what the people there see is Israel choosing to bomb and kill their family, so even those who detest Hamas will detest Israel much much more and with good reason.
You call it propaganda, but it's exactly what Hamas is doing, isn't it?
When Israel calls you and tells you they're going to bomb the building you're in, and when, and Hamas tells you not to leave, how are you going to come away from that hating Israel more than Hamas?
When Hamas steals and hoards gasoline that it could use to run the power plant, the hospital generators, the desalination plants... when they dig up water pipes to fire as bombs... when PIJ fires a rocket that hits a hospital parking lot killing hundreds, you think they're too stupid to follow that?
You think they don't blame them for causing this war? They had a ceasefire and then they invaded Israel killing thousands of civilians, and they brought back hundreds of civilian hostages, you don't think they can tell that's an obvious casus belli?
No, I know what it means, I'm accusing you of straight up lying. It's true in every sense of the word truth, it is an accurate characterization of Hamas's actions, you have no reason to doubt it, you just don't like it because it's an uncomfortable phrase. You prefer to call them "martyrs," don't you?
I did respond, I didn’t flatly call you a liar, I was implying that from my perspective your view seems to either be deliberately antagonistic and untrue or you are not receiving accurate coverage of the conflict. I love Jewish people, I’m not an antisemite or desire any sort of death for Jews or any other group for that matter, but the actions of Israel should be condemned, and they have engaged in massive misinformation campaigns related to Palestine for decades. This is not to say I don’t also condemn terrorism and killing of civilians by Hamas as well. But it is relevant to examine who is the original aggressor in the conflict and for what reason the conflict began.
You still won't respond to the point that Hamas is, in fact using Palestinians as human shields. you still just abstractly insist that believing that makes me a dumbass and is nothing but Israeli propaganda. But you don't have anything substantive to say.
You condemn terrorism, except on the internet, where you defend it. You don't want people to die, unless Hamas also wants them to die, in which case you'll divert and deflect all you want.
The original aggressor in the current conflict is Hamas. The original aggressor in the region is a complex, hazy question, but it very obviously predates the 1948 date people just love to focus on. Edit: Here's a starting point, if you need one
You condemn terrorism, except on the internet, where you defend it. You don’t want people to die, unless Bibi also wants them to die, in which case you’ll divert and deflect all you want.
Bibi is a piece of shit, and that is not a defense of Hamas or its use of Palestinian civilians as human shields. If you're not going to try, don't bother commenting.
why would the IDF use human shields? That doesn’t even make any sense as the people they’re fighting literally targeted a music festival, they don’t care about killing civilians. Secondly Israel is using precision guided munitions but Hamas rockets don’t even have the accuracy to reliably hit a city let alone to target military infrastructure.
You sound like you’ve picked a side and will try to say anything to rationalize it, life isn’t that simple I’m afraid.
You sound like you have only become aware of this after Oct 7. I have picked a side for sure it’s just not the one you are implying. I am on the side of less people being blown up, shot or otherwise killed.
As it stands right now the vast majority of death and oppression is coming from Israel. It’s pretty simple really. They have all the power and continue the slaughter for decades on end.
It’s not your fault that the vast majority of news and political speech has been strictly pro-israel for decades and that has colored your view.
Also how much has the Israeli death toll gone up after Oct 7? Ya might wanna look it up if you think those Hamas rockets are raining down as much death as Israeli rockets do.
No I’ve been following the complexities of the issue for a long time so I understand that it’s not a simple as you seem to think. I actually went on a pro Palestine march last time it happened because I was so caught up in the very heavily pushed idea that Israel is evil and the Palestinians are just trying to live normal lives - the more I’ve followed the situation and attempts at moving forward the more I’ve come to realise that actually Israel is trying far harder than most countries would to make peace while most the mayor powers in the middle East are actively working against these efforts.
You’re pushing the childish notion that the winner in a fight is always the aggressor and that makes no sense. Israel can’t just stop fighting and the situation ends - or do you just want them to wait until they’ve got enough dead to look like victims in your eyes?
You are the one acting childish here when you ignore the apartheid conditions. Why have 120 west bank Palestinians been killed by the IDF since Oct 7? Hamas isn’t there so what’s the excuse? I mean those horrible west back civilians not wanting their homes stolen by settlers ( aka civian shields for the IDF muscle ) are so deserving of it if they get upset. There is no parity in this situation. Israel is only putting up the barest lip service of trying for peace and you are falling for it.
Why would I respond to baseless points that are leveled against resistance groups without fail EVERY TIME there is a conflict like this? It’s tired, I’m not that young, I’ve heard all of this already. What is your basis for saying Hamas has been purposely using Palestinians as human shields? I would have the same discussion in person, I’m open with my beliefs. I don’t want Hamas to kill anyone FFS, I’m a Buddhist and a vegetarian, I don’t even want someone to kill a fly, putting words in my mouth is not a useful way to win an argument.
I'm not going to debate with anybody evil enough to call the rapists and baby-murderers at Hamas a "resistance group." If you're intentionally going to spread pro-Hamas propaganda, you can go fuck yourself.
Flattening whole communities is as targeted as using a shotgun to kill a fly.
In other news:
Bibi just called for a genocide by referring to Palestine as Amalak. If you know your torah you know what that references but if you don’t he was kind enough to spell out the verse. Netanyahu quoted from First Samuel 15:3, saying, “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. ‘Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys’” The invocation of this biblical passage serves not only as a historical reference but also as a genocidal lens through which the Prime Minister views the current conflict.
I’m not on the side of genocide. You sure seem to be however. I’d say that makes you a piece of shit human being.
Is that substantive enough for your goose-stepping ass?
“Israeli precision is a paragon of modern warfare” I’ve mentioned the strike that hit a vehicle carrying over 70 refugees on a designated safe route, and the claimants of Israeli’s amazing military technology have had nothing to say about it.
Buddy, you haven’t been paying attention to what’s been going on recently have you? Also, a warning drop does nothing but give people time to piss themselves if you only give a hospital a few minutes to evacuate.
Even I knew a day before it happened that they were telling people to leave the hospital with the command center tunnels under it, I saw them talking about it on the BBC so it’s a bit rich to pretend only a few minutes was given.
Hamas literally blocked roads going south and shot at civilians trying to flee the combat zone, Israel is going to great lengths to warn the Palestinian people and get them out the way while hamas are doing everything possible to make sure they can’t get out the way.
Israel’s strikes are the most targeted fucking strikes you’ve ever seen a military do, and they actively warn the people in those buildings with everything from roof knocking to a phone call.
That doesn’t even make sense. If the point is to destroy Hamas assets and people, there’s no sense in tipping them off about it. So either they’re doing that and destroying people’s homes for no reason, or they’re not actually doing that.
It’s not actually possible to take out military targets like that with air strikes in a “clean” way. Obviously the only reason they don’t go in on the ground with IDF soldiers if they actually have legitimate targets instead is because the lives of Palestinean civilians are less important than the lives of Israeli soldiers, and they know that air strikes don’t lead to any casualties on their side.
If the point is to destroy Hamas assets and people, there’s no sense in tipping them off about it.
The primary point of airstrikes is to stop the Hamas bases that fire rockets indiscriminately in the vague direction of Israel. They warn people so that people can escape, and then, if people escape, and the rockets are disabled, that's a win-win. Of course, it would be even better if they had magic airstrikes that only disabled rockets, created protective bubbles around any civilians to protect them from any rubble, and convinced terrorists to just stop politely. But short of that, they're going to focus on disabling the rockets and warning civilians.
Yes, they call Hamas terrorists and warn them. They'd rather everybody survive than civilians die. Hamas would rather everybody die than civilians live.
It’s not actually possible to take out military targets like that in civilian neighborhoods with air strikes in a “clean” way.
Right. Feel free to recommend something cleaner than airstrikes.
Obviously the only reason they don’t go in on the ground with IDF soldiers if they actually have legitimate targets instead is because the lives of Palestinean civilians are less important than the lives of Israeli soldiers, and they know that air strikes don’t lead to any casualties on their side.
They did go in on the ground with IDF soldiers, what news are you following?
But launching a ground invasion into Gaza every time Hamas or PIJ fired a rocket would be worse, you see how much the world is complaining (and attacking Jews) because of the current ground invasion, right? They're calling the ground invasion a genocide. Surrounding Muslim nations have been saying that invading Gaza by ground would be an act of war against them, they're just itching to invade Israel. Ground wars are not safe for civilians either.
Moreover, if you attack a Hamas rocket facility on ground, kill every terrorist, and let every civilian go free, the rockets and rocket-firing infrastructure are still there. You need the soldiers to stay around long enough to dismantle all that and carry the rockets away. In that time, Hamas will obviously attack the soldiers, and the escalation will inevitably result in more destruction.
How can harm be minimized here? Really? There is no sensible solution while Hamas exists. Hamas must not be allowed to continue existnig. (Nor should PIJ, for that matter). That, at this point, is the justification for a ground invasion.
They’re targetting and killing journalists (and were already doing so before this) and their families.
States murder journalists and their families has no other reason than to stop the truth from coming out, so taking out a couple of tens of thousand who they see as untermenschen to “tie up loose ends” is hardly going to weigh on their consciences.
The Pro-Israel crowd will say it is all lies and Israel is really making good friends with all Palestinians then act all shocked that rockets keep flying from gaza at them. Bombing the shit out of Palestinians has worked SO well over the last many decades. Yet they figure ‘we just didn’t bomb hard enough’ to make them like us!
We’ve learned that bombing only makes people more resolved to fight in every war in the 20th and 21st centuries. There’s no reason it would change now. You can’t bomb away ideas.
The idea that the atomic bombs directly caused the surrender of Japan is contested, actually. It’s more likely that they created an urgency in what was already looking like a losing battle. The difference in that situation is that Japan wasn’t fighting a war of resistance at any cost against the US, they were fighting as part of an alliance on one front of a world war. In that case it is very real that troops lose morale, civilian casualties become too great, and loss of military assets make victory look unlikely, and then surrender looks attractive by comparison. But I think in the case of popularly supported resistance to colonizers, that threshold is quite high - people feel quite strongly about revenge and are convinced of the justice of their cause in that situation, so the brutality of their colonizers isn’t likely to do anything other than strengthen their resolve.
Frankly, I actually think the atomic bombing and firebombing campaigns would be considered war crimes if they happened today. It’s really weird that people justify it so much by how horrible the Japanese state was at the time - tons of innocent civilians, including lots of children, died horribly, and it was 100% anticipated, and in the case of the atomic bombing, they did it twice, knowing that. You can’t justify your own actions by the crimes of your enemy.
That popular support will never disappear, Hamas is using Muslim vs infidels agenda. You see, that works well to brainwash Muslims worldwide. At no point would they stop cursing Israel and Jew.
There’s got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza.
There is a way, it’s just excruciatingly difficult and has no chance of happening.
People will excess wealth will need to give up some of that wealth so others can have more.
For example, increasing immigration limits to the US and giving refugees the means to contribute to society, such as housing and utilities. It shouldn’t just be the US, either. All nations with excess can pitch in to help. This can be done, but the hand-sitters among us are already chomping at the bit to tell us why it can’t.
There’s got to be a way to remove Hamas without killing everyone in Gaza
Bibi isn’t interested in that.
Netanyahu said “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’," .
Not making their only other choice an Israeli puppet would be a great start. Hamas is reactionary. Getting rid of the abuse would go a long way to putting a cap on the reaction.
You could only ACTUALLY get rid of Hamas by getting rid of the current Israeli leadership, because even if you actually knocked out Hamas themselves, the Israeli leadership will just gin up a replacement Hamas to be their strawman in Gaza until they’ve bombed their way into settlerizing Gaza same way they’re doing to the West Bank.
Yeah but the same thing was going on during the original cold war. The US and Russia were both doing hot proxy conflicts in other places, just not directly with each other. Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan were three really notable examples but there were more.
Not for the Russians, for them it’s still a special operation since their leader is also very special…they are not involved in any war from their very special point of view.
Egypt stopped allowing Palestinians to cross when refugee members of the Muslim Brotherhood (intimately tied to Hamas, and from which Hamas is an offshoot) co-opted the 2011 protests to seize control of the country.
Imagine how Egypt would look if their pro-democracy, pro-socialist revolution wasn’t fucked by Hamas the same way Gaza has been.
Imagine pretending the US doesn’t wield influence. I wonder if you also pretend that Russia determines US electoral outcomes, or that Iran keeps shitting our pants in the middle east.
No it isn’t. Does it have to be? Do you think the Israeli government takes a neutral position on the Rafah border crossing? Israel is the primary prosecutor of this genocide. They are assisted and enabled largely by the US, which also dictates (client state) Egypt’s policies in this regard.
Despite urging Palestinians and others caught in Gaza to flee the northern areas, bombings that claimed the lives of yet more civilians—including children—were reported in Khan Younis and the city of Rafah.
The attacks came hours after the IDF’s Rear Adm Daniel Hagari called on Gaza’s residents to move south “for your own safety.”
While the Egyptian government has made clear that it refuses to accept large numbers of Palestinian refugees from Gaza, fearful of the political and security repercussions, it has ordered hospitals in northern Sinai and elsewhere to prepare to take in wounded patients from the enclave — as they have during past rounds of fighting. As Israel pummels besieged Gaza, Egypt resists opening up to refugees
“This border is open to take in any injured,” said Diaa Rashwan, head of Egypt’s State Information Service, at a news conference in front of the Rafah crossing Tuesday. He added that the World Health Organization has inspected “all the hospitals and medical facilities” but that “the occupying forces prevent the crossing from the Palestinian side” — a reference to Israel.
Are there articles about that? Because them bombing the border crossing would obviously be a clear thing of them causing the border to be partly blocked.
I’m not sure what part you meant since the article talks about how they can’t flee not because of the bombing but because the border is closed by Egypt
Egypt has refused to open its doors to those fleeing Gaza — in part because it doesn’t want to be seen as aiding Israel’s forced displacement of Palestinians but also because it doesn’t want a massive refugee crisis within its borders.
I thought your claim was that they’re not crossing because of the bombing, but in the article you linked they’re saying they’re still trying to cross and the the reason they’re unable to is Egypt.
Not per the article you posted and even the most recent news that are about how almost nobody can cross because Egypt isn’t letting them through. They’re trying, even with the bombing, but very very few are being let through. And that’s according to the people trying to cross.
The Rafah Border Crossing is the only crossing point between Egypt and the Gaza Strip. It lies on the international border that was confirmed by the 1979 Egypt–Israel peace treaty and the 1982 Israeli withdrawal from the Sinai Peninsula. The Rafah Border Crossing can only be used for the passage of persons. All goods traffic must use the Kerem Shalom border crossing on the Israel-Gaza border.
The Rafah Land Port became the primary border crossing between Egypt and Gaza, managed by the Israel Airports Authority until Israel had dismantled its settlements in Gaza on 11 September 2005 as part of a disengagement plan. It subsequently became the task of the European Union Border Assistance Mission Rafah (EUBAM) to monitor the crossing.
In the 2023 Israel–Hamas war that began in October, the crossing was again effectively sealed. The Egyptian government refused to allow either Gazans or foreign nationals to exit Gaza via the Rafah crossing, despite intensive international efforts to secure a window of time for the Rafah crossing to open to foreigners who want to exit the Strip.
The Philadelphi Route, also called Philadelphi Corridor, is a narrow strip of land, 14 km (8.699 miles) in length, situated along the entirety of the border between Gaza Strip and Egypt. Under the provisions of the Egypt–Israel peace treaty of 1979, it was established as a buffer zone controlled and patrolled by Israeli forces. One purpose of the Philadelphi Route was to prevent the movement of illegal materials (including weapons and ammunition) and people between Egypt and the Gaza Strip.
telegraph.co.uk
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