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otp , to science in Embryo loss is integral to IVF. Alabama’s ruling equating embryos with children jeopardizes its practice

I’ll start taking Alabama seriously when their KFCs start putting fried eggs in their buckets with the rest of the chicken.

“What’re y’all complaining about? You got a WHOLE chicken, not just a few wings and legs!”

MonkderZweite , to science in Embryo loss is integral to IVF. Alabama’s ruling equating embryos with children jeopardizes its practice

But according to the Supreme Court of Alabama, it is a person

That bunch of cells can barely be counted as living.

lolcatnip ,

They’re certainly alive or there wouldn’t be any point in keeping them. What they’re not is people.

Black616Angel ,

A frozen embryo is not really “alive”. Anywhere outside of a specific clinic in a specific container it would thaw and be destroyed immediately.

I know, where you are coming from, but counting a frozen embryo as alive is really stretching the meaning of alive.

Dasus ,
@Dasus@lemmy.world avatar

Life is defined as “the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death”

None of these apply to embryos by themselves. Only when they’re implanted do they gain the capacity for these things.

If you couldn’t recognise the species even under a microscope, then no, it’s not a person.

upload.wikimedia.org/…/Human_blastocyst.jpg

That’s a human blastocyst.

Frozen embryos are from the the stage before blastocysts.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo_cryopreservation

Cryopreservation of embryos is the process of preserving an embryo at sub-zero temperatures, generally at an embryogenesis stage corresponding to pre-implantation, that is, from fertilisation to the blastocyst stage.

I remember when as a kid in the late 90’s, watching Stargate, I thought the US was cool. (Should’ve realised back then those were mostly Canadians in it, lol.) Now it seems like pure insanity over there.

Cuttlefish1111 , to science in Embryo loss is integral to IVF. Alabama’s ruling equating embryos with children jeopardizes its practice

Modern law, medicine and technology are incompatible with theocratic ideologies.

Vorticity , to science in Embryo loss is integral to IVF. Alabama’s ruling equating embryos with children jeopardizes its practice

This seems like it has ramifications far beyond IVF.

What happens to the morning after pill?

What happens when an embryo doesn’t implant correctly? Or when a woman miscarries at 10 weeks? Will the woman be blamed based on myths about what causes miscarriages? Will a woman who exercised strenuously be accused of manslaughter or murder?

10-20% of known pregnancies end in miscarriage and 30-50% of fertilized eggs are lost during implantation. There is a lot of misinformation about what causes failed implantation and miscarriages.. It seems like this ruling, when combined with the false information, could make many women into “murderers”.

sneezycat ,
@sneezycat@sopuli.xyz avatar

My reasoning for miscarriage is: the woman is not responsible, therefore the government is and should be prosecuted.

WhatAmLemmy ,

Nek minut: “a representative democracy has no obligation to represent the democratic will of the people.”

See “to serve and protect”

ugh ,

IUDs and some birth control pills work by preventing implantation. Those would be banned, too.

azertyfun ,

For these people, the answer to all of those is: yes, outlaw birth control and prosecute women for miscarrying.

Fascism doesn’t have to make sense and the cruelty is the point.

However “these people” aren’t a majority. Even in the US, and even in conservative states, the Republicans have faced legislative loss after legislative loss due to the overturning of Roe v Wade. This is one of the reasons why it’s particularly important to go out and vote, because conservative institutions are acting even crazier than their usual electorate and need to be put in check.

Vorticity ,

Unfortunately, “these people” seem to have taken over the Alabama Supreme Court and, possibly the US Supreme Court (we’ll see how they rule when this gets to them).

Hopefully, since Alabama’s Supreme Court justices are elected, they will be voted out over this ruling. Also, hopefully rationality will prevail at the US Supreme Court.

criticon , to science in Embryo loss is integral to IVF. Alabama’s ruling equating embryos with children jeopardizes its practice

Can I freeze a few dozen embryos and then claim them as my dependants when filling my taxes?

holycrap ,

Only in Alabama

WhatAmLemmy ,

This implies that evangelicals or fascism act based on logic; proven time and time again to be an absolute fantasy.

drcabbage ,

Yes.

Corkyskog ,

deleted_by_author

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  • muix ,

    embryos

    Not without being fertilized first.

    Huh?

    Corkyskog ,

    deleted_by_author

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  • jwelch55 ,

    That’s why they said ‘embryo’ not ‘egg’

    where_am_i , to science in Embryo loss is integral to IVF. Alabama’s ruling equating embryos with children jeopardizes its practice

    Science sub, not politics.

    Pyr_Pressure ,

    Science doesn’t exist in a bubble, politics affects science.

    lars , to science in Embryo loss is integral to IVF. Alabama’s ruling equating embryos with children jeopardizes its practice

    Are they unintentionally doing these cells a favor by preventing them from being born human in a poor theocracy on a dying planet?

    Gullible , to science in Embryo loss is integral to IVF. Alabama’s ruling equating embryos with children jeopardizes its practice

    As always, the intent is to make it more difficult for normal people to exist. Healthcare suffers, women suffer, the poor suffer, and republicans cheer. All joking aside, both sides are just as bad as the other, right fellow Americans?

    DessertStorms ,
    @DessertStorms@kbin.social avatar

    All joking aside, both sides are just as bad as the other, right fellow Americans?

    Democrats are literally in power 🤦‍♀️😂

    Gullible ,

    The president doesn’t supremely adjudicate for Alabama, you hotdog.

    Smc87 , to science in Embryo loss is integral to IVF. Alabama’s ruling equating embryos with children jeopardizes its practice

    No

    NaibofTabr ,

    Um, care to elaborate?

    Ghostalmedia ,
    @Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

    Yes?

    FlihpFlorp ,

    Perchance?

    3425asdfqwer4 , to science in Embryo loss is integral to IVF. Alabama’s ruling equating embryos with children jeopardizes its practice

    The terrorists must be eliminated. Stop playing defense and trying to roll back the damage and start going directly for them.

    lulztard , to science in Embryo loss is integral to IVF. Alabama’s ruling equating embryos with children jeopardizes its practice

    Schoolshootistanian literal motherfuckers doing retarded shite for our entertainment. Bless them.

    TaintPuncher , to science in Scientists document first-ever transmitted Alzheimer’s cases, tied to no-longer-used medical procedure

    To save some people a click, growth hormone apparently used to be extracted from the brains of human cadavers in the UK and some children treated with this later developed Alzheimer’s, some of them as early as their 30’s.

    Worth reading the whole article, very interesting!

    TheObviousSolution , (edited ) to news in U.S. government spent more on health care in 2022 than six countries with universal health care combined

    This is a useless metric, the US has more population than all of those countries combined and the healthcare costs in Europe are about half of what they are in the US. This article is reaching towards a conclusion, not really objectively coming to it, although it’s not surprising considering the source.

    United States 340M (Not 331M)

    • Germany 83M
    • UK 68M
    • Italy 59M
    • Spain 48M
    • Austria 9M
    • France 65M

    ~ 332M (Not 335M)

    (Just the first few results where this information could be looked up, no other criteria applied for these sources)

    Guess people just don’t like facts.

    bobgusford ,

    So, all those European countries combined have about the same population as the US, but spend a combined 1.2T, whereas US spends 1.8T?

    TheObviousSolution ,

    Even if you consider the population about the same, the healthcare costs in Europe are about half of what they are in the US, so the fact that they spend 30% more than 0.9T is basically them spending 30% per citizen on the proportional healthcare. The real benefit is also, y’know, not going bankrupt over healthcare fees…

    The population of the US is more, although not by much. I pointed it out because the results from the article are different, claiming the population from those countries is more than that of the US (no, it isn’t) with very different numbers, which hints at the hand they are playing.

    StuffYouFear ,

    Study is also worthless because this is also assuming same for same engagement for services, but that is doubtful as most US citizens attempt to avoid Healthcare as if something isn’t covered, you may involuntarily bankrupt yourself. In the other countries listed, there is a lack of fear so a average citizen may be engaging with their healthcare system more often.

    TheObviousSolution ,

    Being able to engage more freely with your doctor also helps keep the healthcare costs down because people can solve their health issues before they really become costly.

    slowwooderrunsdeep ,

    one reason the costs are lower in Europe is bc govts over there put strict limits on how much providers can charge for services and prescriptions, which is something the US refuses to do. Healthcare costs in the US are made up by pharma companies depending on how much they think they can get away with.

    reverendsteveii ,

    only a conservative could say “yeah, it’s less money overall but it’s more money once you normalize to assume that it’s the same amount of money”

    you’re talking shit, man. stop it.

    TheObviousSolution , (edited )

    Sorry you find logic so difficult. It’s as simple as healthcare cost in US is higher, therefore costs more. Almost every comment except yours that replied to mine understood this really utterly simple fact to understand, but considering how you devolve the discussion into name calling, I don’t really believe you had any other intent than trolling.

    Government_Worker666 ,

    The article is comparing 2022 costs/populations. Your link is estimated 2023 populations. The article is literally about healthcare costs. The article also states there is an additional 600 billion that is paid. 1.2T vs 1.8T + 600B = double the costs. Your second link seems to agree with this article.

    TheObviousSolution ,

    The article is literally about how much government spends on healthcare, not how much that healthcare costs …

    JackbyDev ,

    It’s like you didn’t read the article.

    This means the U.S. government spent more on health care last year than the governments of Germany, the U.K., Italy, Spain, Austria, and France combined spent to provide universal health care coverage to the whole of their population (335 million in total), which is comparable in size to the U.S. population of 331 million.

    reverendsteveii ,

    dude didn’t even read his own comment. he legit went “yeah, well healthcare is cheaper in europe” as though that proved his point and not the point of the article.

    TheObviousSolution , (edited )

    The article is literally about how much government spends on healthcare, not how much that healthcare costs …

    reverendsteveii ,

    healthcare costs in Europe are about half of what they are in the US

    you see where that’s the point the article is getting at, right? why do they pay less?

    TheObviousSolution , (edited )

    Holy spamming troll. Any other comment you’d care to spam under, you insecure little snowflake? Just make your point and move on. Instead you are just replying under every other comment like the bad toxic shit you are.

    WhyDoYouPersist , to news in U.S. government spent more on health care in 2022 than six countries with universal health care combined

    How timely! American here who just received a bill for scoping my sinuses by an ENT specialist: insurance covered $28 out of the $415 procedure. This is on top of the $70 copay I owe for the $195 office visit. So all accounting factored in, I owe $450 for what I thought was going to be $70.

    Because it was billed through insurance, the provider’s hands are tied in terms of further negotiation. I would bet if I had gone in as a cash patient, I’d be much better off.

    The icing on the cake is that the scoping procedure was non-conclusive.

    The US healthcare insurance system is the ultimate way to make money fast, for little effort. As long as you’re on the right side of it, that is.

    _number8_ ,

    copay is such a bullshit word, like i’m somehow equal partners with this trillion dollar corporation of ghouls

    AlwaysNowNeverNotMe ,
    @AlwaysNowNeverNotMe@kbin.social avatar

    Try telling them you decline to pay the bill because it's outside network and see how much they value your partnership.

    WeeSheep ,

    The worst is that insurance companies “cover” things and that’s all they can say before anything is done. After, when billed, they can say “we cover 5% of the final bill. See? We covered it.” And we have no idea how much we will need to pay for standard necessary procedures.

    DanglingFury ,

    Get your jaw checked bro. TMJ can cause a lot of similar issues

    Drivebyhaiku ,

    Fuck. Canadian here who is just aghast at the charge. Had a friend go through the same procedure but essentially never paid a dime. We don’t even pay MSP any more but back when we did it was locked to your income bracket and while I had some bumpercrop years (my base rate is 33 bucks an hour and I work 12 hour days standard with time and a half applied for everything past 8 hours for 2019 I worked 11 months with routine 60 hour weeks) my payments never crested $250 for a quarterly payment. Heck I didn’t even realize that they stopped charging for two years because I had the thing rigged to autopay.

    Heck a friend of mine’s Dad needed emergency hospital transfer from a small town and they used a helicopter ambulance and the family was never charged.

    People want to complain that we’re slower and that people have to actually wait in waiting rooms and sure, non life-threatening stuff needs to be put in a queue but from what I have heard from my US buddies wait times at least are pretty comparable.

    jasondj , (edited )

    I swear people who talk about waiting have never visited an ER for something mundane because it’s the only option opened after 6, or who never had to meet with a specialist, or get a procedure that requires one.

    Story time. January 2019. I have a 6 month old baby with mysterious rash. Pediatrician has us cut out common allergens and he clears up. Tells us to book with a pediatric allergist.

    Now, I don’t live in BFE. I live in Southeastern MA. By no means an area underserved by doctors. The doctor refers us to Boston Children’s Hospital. It’s an hour and a half away without traffic, or 2 hours and 3 transfers on public transit.

    The first appointment available was in October. Kids 7 months old at this point and already getting appointments for longer than that out.

    We get put on a cancellation list and around March we get a call for him to be seen and get a scratch test. We take it, we are going on vacation 3 days after that and we’d love to know exactly what to avoid.

    Kid lights up like a damn Christmas tree, but only one food allergy (peanuts) and it comes in like 1.5x the diameter of positive control.

    Next, because of his age, they want to get him into an exposure therapy study, but he needs a good challenge first and they would call us when we got back from vacation.

    Well, we came back from vacation the first week of March, 2019. BCH was now not scheduling any challenges due to the pandemic. Try again after Easter when the whole thing blows over. Then a month later. And another month.

    Eventually they are booking again and after getting through the backlog of people that were cancelled due to the pandemic , the next appointment is 14 months out. By that point he’s too old for the study and we neeed to wait till he’s 4.

    Well, now he’s 4. We book an appointment for his food challenge. The old scratch test is no longer good. He needs another one. Next booking for that is 10 months out, again. As luck would have it, though, we called back over and over again and eventually got a booking for his scratch test.

    That was back in August. We booked his food challenge while we were in the office. It will be next October, barring any more global catastrophes or blind luck on the cancellation list. He will be five.

    It’s amazing to me that there’s a person who can beat me at Smash Bros who has been waiting for a doctors appointment for nearly his entire life. And people tell me healthcare in America is fine. Those motherfuckers don’t know about this. They don’t know how much it costs every time he’s out of school for a couple of days with a fever and the school wants a doctor’s note. They don’t know that after wages, the single biggest part of their compensation package is their employers portion of their health insurance. In fact, depending on their job, it may even be more than their wages.

    That last bit is important. People don’t realize how much their healthcare actually costs. They see the pre-tax line item for their share of premiums, never their employers. They see that as separate from the Medicare pre-tax item, and the vision and dental, all of which they don’t see the employers portion. They might see the bills if they got the high deductible plan, but they’re somewhat expected because “they got the ‘cheap’ plan”.

    Drivebyhaiku ,

    See up here people go all “I had to wait six months for a specialist! Bloody socialized medicine!” lt’s a blindness caused by not having anything to compare to and buying into the American political lies about our own system. That kind of wait time for a scratch test is insane even by our standards.

    WhyDoYouPersist ,

    Yeah the ENT specialist I saw was three months after I was referred by my general physician, because that’s the earliest they had available.

    There’s nothing admirable about US heathcare (at no fault of the healthcare workers, let me be clear).

    Drivebyhaiku ,

    I admit that I technically have a horse in the US healthcare system. The industry I work in contracts our labour vs the US market because they don’t have to pay in to sponsor our medical insurance policy coverage. Technically speaking if the US fixed it’s healthcare my job would be less competitive.

    But fuck, my job ain’t worth anybody suffering.

    csm10495 , to news in U.S. government spent more on health care in 2022 than six countries with universal health care combined
    @csm10495@sh.itjust.works avatar

    I saw a commercial for healthcare.gov. It talked about how people only paid a few bucks for healthcare. It was all after government assistance.

    The fact that you need heavy government assistance to get healthcare shows how much of a failure things are here.

    Also in Mexico they have legal price limits on drugs. They’re printed on the box so you know if you’re getting a deal or paying the max. Also can see a doctor for like 40 pesos (about 2 to 3 USD). It’s much cheaper than my post insurance copay. I understand it’s a different market, but they have better general healthcare than the US.

    Also as a side note, most drugs don’t need a prescription. You can tell the pharmacist what hurts and they can tell you what should help (or when to see a Dr). If I want to see my Dr, I’m on hold for 20 minutes then get an appointment in 2 weeks. Once again: viva Mexico!

    shasta ,

    In the US, when I want to see my doctor I drive 15 minutes to get there and tell them I need to be seen for whatever and then I wait 15 minutes and then talk to the doctor. If they say I need to talk to a specialist, that may take 1-2 weeks after making an appointment though. It’s not cheaper, but at least I can get care when I need it.

    Of course, not everyone can afford healthcare in our country. That’s the biggest problem. But it’s generally fast and competent.

    shuzuko ,

    Most people cannot see their primary care physician just by driving up and being like, hey, I need to be seen for x issue. You pretty much have to make an appointment unless you go to a minute clinic or something. And that’s with insurance. Your experience is very much an outlier.

    JonEFive ,

    No kidding. There’s at least a month long wait to see any of my doctors. Same with my dentist unless it’s urgent. Usually it’s closer to two months.

    If I need immediate attention, I have to go to an urgent care clinic or emergency room.

    The nice thing is that in the year 2023, all of my doctors are reachable via the hospital system’s app and they respond to questions relatively quickly. So there’s no need to schedule a 15 minute appointment that ends up taking hours just to ask a simple question or two or to get a referral.

    RBWells ,

    Where I am in the US, dentist schedules 6 months out, doctor likes you to schedule annual exams a year out and non urgent a couple of weeks at a minimum but there are some urgent care appointments available each day (or most days). Dermatologist and GYN a couple months wait for routine care. But there are lots of independent urgent care standalone clinics, including for orthopedic stuff, so for broken bones I did not have to go to the emergency room and incur that cost.

    It’s uneven I would say. Definitely not worth what we are paying in taxes, insurance premiums and payments to providers, though.

    plantedworld ,

    Man this is less and less the experience I’m seeing. Months to see my primary. Urgent care I can get in same day, but I work at hospital that saves slots for their employees

    Honytawk , (edited )

    So about the same waiting times as developed nations with a healthcare system, but with 10 000 times the cost.

    I pay like 5€ in Belgium to go see a doctor, the rest is paid by my insurance. I can walk into a hospital right now and get service. As long as the issue warrants urgency of course. And a call to my house doctor can be met with a half hour wait time if it is less urgent.

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