I tell my friends that making software is like making M16s. You send them out of the factory, thinking you’ve designed the perfect gun, I mean how the hell do you use a gun wrong? Until you find out that a few people tried to use that top part to shoot arrows like a bow. What’s even worse about software is sometimes they actually figure out how to use it as a bow and idiots start using M16s as bows and now you have to fix that because it’s a horrible fucking bow.
You’re linking your own post about assuming what the admins in .world have done as if it’s definitive proof. After a definitive statement is made one way or the other, then you can start freaking out. Until then, just stop it with the conspiratorial garbage.
I find your hyperbolic outrage over nothing “distasteful” and “disrespectful”. Go to another instance if you feel so strongly instead of trying to rile up some sort of revolt against the admins as if that would accomplish anything.
You are a citizen of a western nation. You are complicit in a wide assortment of genocides. I’m literally accusing you of genocide. This isn’t hyperbolic in the slightest.
I’m just replacing the ok part of my deleted comment, but nothing more than the part about facebook supporting genocide. Facebook/meta encourages genocide by allowing posts to stay active and other things. That’s a big part of why anti meta guys are so serious.
There is no indication that they never will de-federate from Meta.
All they have said is rather than shutting the stable before the horse bolts, they are actually waiting for the horse to get in the stable first and then address if the door needs closing.
There really is no need to either defederate from meta, or make that decision right now anyway
Have a read in that link and you can see some conversation about it. Meta is a known evil, waiting for more proof is unneeded when you can just look into their history. There are links in that link. It’s just a cover to slide +1 step towards allowing meta to control what we talk about.
The best argument I heard to defederate and have noting to do with Meta is this; this is the company that had/has a platform where hate, disinformation and lies have created a divide in society, several older generations were ‘socially engineered’ to start to think differently, more absolute and right wing. In short, Meta has a platform known for causing division amongst countrymen and families.
Pre-emptive nuking is what is needed, followed by some DDT thrown over it for good measure. This needs to stop. This is not a technical decision, this is a social one in order to try and save us from that shitshow FB/Zuck/Meta gave us.
Neat, that means I can stay with lemm.ee for now. It’s a really well working instance and the admin seems to know his stuff. I’d still have migrated in a heartbeat if it federated with meta.
This is not particularly surprising. Lemmy was started as an anti-corporate project by leftists after /r/chapotraphouse got quarantined and later banned (subreddit for the most popular podcast and most donated patreon at the time), with the explicit goal of preventing corporate control from being able to silence leftists when they’re blasting off. CTH was skyrocketing in subscribers at the time it was quarantined on August 8th 2019, and when even quarantining didn’t stop its growth or slow down its activity afterwards Reddit pulled the plug under the excuse it promoted violence, but the only particularly edgy thing ever said there was “slave owners should be killed” and support for John Brown. This evolved post-ban into the assessment that Spez banned it because he wants to own slaves.
When that happened there was a massive shift in the leftist parts of reddit as we very quickly realised we’d be targeted if reddit ever deemed us to be too successful, and projects like Lemmy began in reaction. CTH’s community in fact moved to Lemmy 3 years ago, and resides on Hexbear.net but has not yet joined the rest of federated lemmy due to technical issues (it used to be a fork with a different front end).
Given lemmy’s specific anti-corporate origins seeing Lemmy.ml do this should surprise nobody. It’s the correct move anyway.
Always love to hear the deep lore. Lemmy’s early development makes a lot more sense now. Good on them(you) to leave everything open and learn from Reddit’s mistakes.
Still, free and open has a limit. No Facebook and no Nazis. That’s just common sense everyone used to have.
The fact that you people can’t see how distasteful it is to compare the fucking Nazis to breakfast foods in a cute way, says everything anyone needs to know about you.
Weather into what? If you’re trying to suggest the old, “you’ll get more conservative as you get older and start paying taxes,” then I can just stop you right there because it’s been several decades now, and I’m only going in the opposite direction. The last few years have pretty much radicalized me against capitalism, and pushed me further left than I’ve been my entire adult life.
But any day now, right?
If that wasn’t what you meant, then you can disregard.
Not what I meant - I’ve also become more left-wing with age. Particularly with regard to class stratification. But I also put a lot more effort into getting along with people, at least in real life.
No idea, I don’t use 4chan. It can produce funny content, but I don’t think I could stand to wade through the shit. It’s a legacy username, it’s mine and I cherish it.
Yes, it didn’t take long for somebody to accuse me of being a literal nazi. Those are odd people, though. Don’t tend to meet them in the real world, only on the internet.
The word “Nazi” and especially “fascist” have been diluted into “bigot” at best and “person I disagree with” at worst. The right are just as bad with “communist” and “socialist”, although with the difference that socialism is a perfectly decent ideology, and even communism isn’t as bad as fascism.
No, I’m fine with that definition, that’s a sane use of the term. Part of me thinks we’d be better off reserving “nazi” for those who openly align themselves with the historical group and just use the descriptor “ultranationalist” for modern instances of ultranationalism. Might reduce equivocation.
I think the problem there is that a shit load of people are so uneducated that they don’t associate nationalism with the nazis, they only associate the holocaust as the bad thing they did and really don’t understand that ultranationalist ideology will lead to a repeat of what occurred over and over again. Thus it becomes much easier to just say nazi when referring to these ultranationalists even though it’s technically incorrect when the ultranationalism they support is actually polish, or american, or fucking italian, idk etc etc etc. They’re all have pretty much the same goals just in a different set of completely made up lines on a map.
You could call them an authoritarian paramilitary group, but they’re not nazis. That doesn’t automatically make them good, it’s just that nazism is a specific political ideology.
I’ve yet to meet an anarchist following anything like a coherent ideology in that respect. They all seem very eager to impose themselves on others. I suppose one guy took a more academic position, but still seemed to idolise violence. Maybe the authority is decentralised, but frequently wielded as explicit force. Not far from libertarianism in that regard. Doesn’t appeal.
Cluster munitions, for all I care. What’s that got to do with anything? I was explaining my use of the word authoritarian. I’d make them illegal, if I were in a position to do so. But my place in society is installing irrigation and water management systems, I have to focus on that.
Mate I do not give a flying fuck what any of these people with zero power are. I care about actually achieving shit. Fortunately I live in the UK where this bizarre sectarianism has absolutely no presence, thank fuck for that.
My point here is that you’ve got to get a grip. We don’t do this bizarre shit over in the UK because there’s literally no point, there is no communist revolution just around the corner, the conditions do not exist for it. What matters is what we can achieve RIGHT NOW, when a revolution is actually on the cards then we can decide what that revolution should actually fucking look like. In the meantime these people are all mild lukewarm elected MPs as socdems that just want to give people more welfare and improve basic living standards, but you would call them evil tankies for any of these things.
If you don’t build at least SOME power now you will have absolutely none when the conditions deteriorate enough for a real revolution, and if that is the case it will be fascism that wins, not any sect of the absolutely non-existent left in your country.
What you’re viewing above is how radical you need to be just to establish and maintain lukewarm european welfare and social safety nets. Get that into your head and you might actually stop the aussie government dumping migrants into concentration camps and help improve people’s lives for fuck’s sake. You should know better than this anyway, half the union leadership of australia are marxist-leninists, and the other half are trots. What union are you in? I’ll tell you whether you need to throw your union leader under the bus for some fucking do-nothing liberal because of your sectarianism obsession. Are you even in one?
Not really among the actual leftists. There is a conflict between the neoliberal starmerites who fake being left and the actual leftists that he has been purging so hard it puts stalin to shame, there is barely any fighting among the actual UK left because we do not give a fuck. I don’t fucking care what the person next to me on the roof of an Israeli weapons factory believes, I care that he’s going to have my back when the cops show up. I do not care what the person next to me on the picket line believes, I care that they’re fucking there. If you said this shit in person at an event you’d get knocked out or if you’re lucky sidelined and ostracised by just about every group in the left for being a wrecker whose goal is clearly not to help but to divide.
Very very rarely there is some extremely cringe jabs between the trots and the MLs, but not particularly often because there’s no fucking point. The anarchists are ironically the least sectarian, simply caring that people show up when the hunt sabos need it because there’s fuck all people in the countryside as it is to be picky about what kind of leftist someone is. Everyone shows up for everyone’s events, because having a left is far more fucking important than arguing over 100 year old cringe while workers lives are being made worse NOW. All you’re doing with this shit is helping capitalists by weakening leftists.
And you didn’t answer my question about what union you’re in?
I agree with a lot of your points about pragmatism but there absolutely is factionalism on the left in the UK, unless (as it looks like you are doing) you say some of them are not actually leftist and therefore the remaining group is small enough that it’s not arguing with itself.
The right are also split but in normal times they are better at keeping the worst of it behind closed doors and rallying around the leader when the dust settles. Lack of message discipline is what kills the left at the ballot box. New Labour were good at it and they won; Starmer is trying to do the same - sensible tactic in my opinion.
The neoliberals are not actually leftist. This is a 100% fact, if you are arguing that the capitalists are leftists then you are also not a leftist. They are centre right. The transphobic neoliberals and privatizers trying to destroy the nhs and build a “free and open” energy market for the sake of preventing our attempts at nationalisation can eat my ass, so can their by-association transphobic mysogynistic supporters. You can get to fuck with your “yeah they’re actually toooootally leftists dude belieeeeeve me” bullcrap. It is unbelievable that you would mention New Labour under Tony Blair, a party that killed 2 million people and exploited the fuck out of the middle east and continue to pretend that you are left wing, you are not, you are an imperialist, capitalist neoliberal.
It is blatantly clear why you didn’t answer the question about what union you’re in and did not cite any organising, you don’t do any for the left and you’ve made that abundantly clear to anyone that knows these parties and groups. The only reason you have any votes at all is because the majority of people here are americans and they have absolutely no fucking idea what we’re talking about now.
All they need to know is that you support neoliberals. The crowd here definitely knows neoliberalism isn’t leftist.
No surprises that this conversation started off with you trying to discredit me by screeching “tankie”, you knew that if you made it clear what your actual political affiliations are and made a real political argument it would be unpopular.
There is nothing personal about pointing out your support for transphobes. It’s just a political fact. If you don’t want to be a transphobe, do not support transphobes. Much like if you don’t want to be called a neoliberal, don’t defend neoliberals, and definitely don’t try to claim they’re left.
I’m not a transphobe and you have no information on which to base that assumption. If you call everyone a transphobe it ceases to have any meaning and you have nothing left for when someone is being actually transphobic.
You support Starmer. Starmer’s labour is transphobic, he has given interviews to mumsnet where he says explicitly terf things. He has explicitly come out in favour of segregating trans people from women’s bathrooms and other spaces. You support this. Ergo you are transphobic. The party needs shot of him he’s a disgrace.
“I totally wasn’t saying I support Starmer when I said what he’s doing to labour is actually a good thing and also that New Labour, who he is an ideological successor to, were good!”
Pull the other one mate. At least have this conversation without the dishonesty.
This is such tenuous reasoning. Firstly I didn’t say “I support Starmer”, I commented on whether or not I thought his tactics would be effective in getting elected. I often comment on things the Tories do and say in the same way, and saying " I think X will work" is not an endorsement of X.
Secondly, even if I do intend to vote labour it doesn’t mean I’m endorsing 100% of everything the party/leader says. On an individual level you say don’t care about peoples views and only what they do / achieve so this attitude towards Labour seems completely bizarre to me?
The ‘perfection or bust’ attitude to political parties and leaders gets you another Tory government whereas the pragmatic option might actually get us some incremental improvement. Ironic that we’ve ended up here in a conversation that started as a discussion about left wing factionalism where you claimed it doesn’t exist.
Honestly, as a left wing person in the UK who made some reasonable points higher up the thread about actually achieving something that improves the lives of people now by being pragmatic, who are you going to vote for in the 2024 election?
The ‘perfection or bust’ attitude to political parties and leaders gets you another Tory government whereas the pragmatic option might actually get us some incremental improvement. Ironic that we’ve ended up here in a conversation that started as a discussion about left wing factionalism where you claimed it doesn’t exist.
And this attitude is the one that has existed up until now. Good job neoliberals! Well done! You’re responsible for everything that is wrong in this country!
Honestly, as a left wing person in the UK who made some reasonable points higher up the thread about actually achieving something that improves the lives of people now by being pragmatic, who are you going to vote for in the 2024 election?
The issue is that you don’t actually participate in anything outside of voting once every 5 years. You have barely any idea what fighting to improve workers lives involves, and your assessment of the struggle against neoliberals as a supporter of them is trash. Why am I vicious about them? Because it is precisely what is necessary to get the leadership change we need to get even a mild centrist in. Starmer is not just any neoliberal, he is an arch neoliberal selected by Kissinger and friends at their clubhouse the Trilateral Commission, where they all rub shoulders deciding the future of neoliberal politics and strategy in the world. We can’t get a leftist into power, it’s not happening for at least 10 years, all we can do is try to get this shitbag out, try to undo the dismantling of party democracy he has performed internally, try to purge the zionists and those funded by fucking mossad, and try to get some sort of normal back from which we will have a starting point for leftist politics in the party again. They went scorched earth once they got Corbyn out. They completely fucked everything.
That’s why I’m vicious about it. Because anything other than it does not display the gravity of the situation to naive people that still think everyone in the country simply has different ideas about “what’s best for everyone” and that some of them are a little incompetent. None of these people are incompetent people that want to do good, they are competent and want to do awful shit things for the vast majority of people for the benefit of the finance industry backers that own pretty much everything.
Anti-zionism is not anti-semitism. Zionism itself is anti-semitic. It is the ideology of creating Israel as an ethnostate, it was a fringe of jews at one point in time but the people who wanted to kick the jews out of Europe popularised and supported its growth(hence why it is itself antisemitic in origin).
Anti-zionism is literally just being against the state of Israel as a jewish ethnostate and apartheid regime. It is also supported by a very large number of internationalist jewish organisations.
As for mossad having funded certain people currently organising inside the labour party, this is just factually correct. We have the receipts and it’s openly known.
Decide when we get there. Rumours still flying around that Peace & Justice are considering a run, which would essentially function as a pressure party to Labour the way ukip functioned as a pressure party that achieved Brexit, but from the left obviously. There are some other projects but it’s uncertain what kind of base they’ll have until we get into an election season. For now you can put me down as “not Starmer”.
I can’t say I’ve heard of them. Are you in a rural or urban seat? I think labour have votes to spare in urban areas so it’s unlikely to be very successful but if you can get lots of people to vote like that in a rural seat you might be successful.
Personally I think what the UK needs is PR, and we’d probably need a big coalition of left and right to achieve it. Without PR a lot of the time the smaller parties achieve very little.
You won’t have unless you’re actively involved politically in some way outside of just voting once every 5 years. It’s one of Corbyn’s organising projects: thecorbynproject.com
There have been longstanding rumours about backroom talks with union leaders about spinning out a new party and taking the unions(and their memberships) to it. But this partially hinges on having leftist leadership in all of the major ones which isn’t the case at the current moment in time. There are 2 union leadership elections between now and the next election that will be fairly major in determining whether this strategy can work down the line.
PR is never going to happen without mass unrest there is literally no incentive for either party to support it without a political collapse occurring where it is used as a concession to prevent further unrest. Both parties benefit from FPTP and literally every leftist would immediately leave the labour party for proper democratic socialist and communist parties that would very suddenly gain massive amounts of power because more than a third of the country would vote for them if not for FPTP. It’s just unrealistic to even discuss it because it’s not happening, the libdems sank that ship, you can thank Nick Clegg for that, President of Global Affairs at Meta, best bud of Zuckerberg with the same powers as him at the company.
There are three options here, leftist which is anarchist or communist, but the anarchists don’t vote so they’re functionally irrelevant. The other options are neoliberal or tory. There aren’t any others, pretending there are is absolute nonsense and your unwillingness to just speak straight instead of in riddles makes you sus from the outset.
Why do you say that? The electoral structure is almost identical to Cuba, although significantly larger in scale (due to obvious population differences), both systems were derivative of the USSR’s system.
What unique structural feature makes you call one fascist over the other? I at least assume you don’t consider Cuba fascist. And what exactly is your take on the USSR? You are aware that the electoral system of Yugoslavia under Tito was also extremely similar right? I mention this since you implied you were fond of titoism.
You realize things in the UK aren’t that bad, right? Like we have it way better than America. Nobody I know is seriously struggling. We luckily still have free healthcare and a social safety net. I hate to say it but you’re screaming over a much better situation than lots of countries are dealing with.
Even those remotely close to struggling don’t blame capitalism and are actually right wing or centrists. At least this is what I have seen personally. It’s not like these people are transphobic or racist either.
It’s people like you guys that scream endlessly that are part of the problem. You’re never going to convince anyone who doesn’t already support the cause like that.
We also know the shit show that happened in Russia the failed ML revolution there, and basically everywhere else that tried it. Backing ML is getting you nowhere fast. Anarchists have more luck these days.
I think it’s also worthwhile to point out that striking in the UK does almost nothing. This is partially because people don’t strike at the same time. If they did it would be utter chaos. Things might even change.
It’s also true that lots of strikes are not skilled labour. We all know jobs like bus driver are not paid very much, yet people complain anyway, and I can’t help but think: you knew exactly what kind of job you were getting into. I sort of know better because bus drivers are an essential function regardless of what you think of them, so they should be paid fairly. Lots of people won’t think like this though. It’s also dead easy to replace unskilled labourers so scabs are always going to be a problem.
Also even the conservatives come up with schemes to help the people that are public spending heavy. Examples include furlough, eat out to help out, and the £2 bus faires that are happening right now. They aren’t neoliberal at all. Schemes like that are not true right wing anymore than labour is true left wing in this country.
You realize things in the UK aren’t that bad, right? Like we have it way better than America. Nobody I know is seriously struggling. We luckily still have free healthcare and a social safety net. I hate to say it but you’re screaming over a much better situation than lots of countries are dealing with.
You are either taking the piss or you are completely and utterly sheltered in your middle class bubble.
4.2million children live in poverty, out of 12.7million total. This amounts to one third of children in poverty. The NHS is literally falling apart at the seams, my family works in the NHS, it has been strangled to death. A lot of it has been stealthily privatised and the rest is just being intentionally ruined. It’s on its last legs and is barely providing essential care.
Even those remotely close to struggling don’t blame capitalism and are actually right wing or centrists. At least this is what I have seen personally. It’s not like these people are transphobic or racist either.
This is factually incorrect. Low income votes go left while high income votes go right. There was a blip created by brexit where this was not the case because everything became the single issue of brexit. Low income voters were convinced that voting for brexit would improve their conditions (they were lied to successfully) and incorrectly voting against their best interests. This however is now returning to left, although with Starmer at the helm and people outside of the politically engage the vast majority of the country has no idea what a slime he truly is. Backed by the media who want to see the real left fucked over as well, he’ll likely do alright.
Backing ML is getting you nowhere fast. Anarchists have more luck these days.
Where exactly? Show me the successful anarchists?
It’s also true that lots of strikes are not skilled labour. We all know jobs like bus driver are not paid very much, yet people complain anyway, and I can’t help but think: you knew exactly what kind of job you were getting into.
Unskilled labour is a myth used to suppress wages. I honestly can’t believe you’re spouting this while claiming to be left wing at all.
Also even the conservatives come up with schemes to help the people that are public spending heavy. Examples include furlough, eat out to help out, and the £2 bus faires that are happening right now. They aren’t neoliberal at all. Schemes like that are not true right wing anymore than labour is true left wing in this country.
Furlough was an economic necessity. Eat out to help out is literally just a business promotion and has fuck all to do with helping the population it’s about business owners, literally their target audience.
I agree about the state of the NHS. The fact is though we still have an NHS, America never had one. Lots of countries don’t have healthcare either.
How exactly is unskilled labour a myth? Maybe I should use the term less skilled or just easily replaceable since it’s not 100% unskilled? Either way the result is the same: some labour takes way more time and training than other forms of labour. I don’t think you can complain when a scientist or doctor that spent 7+ years at University while not getting paid gets a higher salary at the end. If you think this is a radical idea I really don’t know what to tell you. I don’t think anybody should be on poverty wages.
This is factually incorrect. Low income votes go left while high income votes go right. There was a blip created by brexit where this was not the case because everything became the single issue of brexit.
I am reporting what I have seen amoung students rather than the general population. The ones who have already been in work or are having to work hard to support themselves while studying are more centrist or right wing.
4.2million children live in poverty, out of 12.7million total.
By third world country standards they are probably rich. Poverty is very much relative. Some people make less in a day than minimum wage in this country for an hour. It’s still not a good thing by any means, but that’s sadly the reality. I don’t think a socialist revolution is going to guarantee everybody has enough food, clothes, and other resources. A lot of people would inevitably end up poorer than to start with, at least for the foreseeable future.
How exactly is unskilled labour a myth? Maybe I should use the term less skilled or just easily replaceable since it’s not 100% unskilled? Either way the result is the same: some labour takes way more time and training than other forms of labour. I don’t think you can complain when a scientist or doctor that spent 7+ years at University while not getting paid gets a higher salary at the end. If you think this is a radical idea I really don’t know what to tell you.
Nah you should stop perpetuating far right anti-worker shit. Nobody is saying that.
I don’t think anybody should be on poverty wages.
Then stop saying the bullshit used to cause it.
I am reporting what I have seen amoung students rather than the general population. The ones who have already been in work or are having to work hard to support themselves while studying are more centrist or right wing.
So the people that can afford university education. You are sheltered and live in a bubble. I on the other hand grew up in squats.
By third world country standards they are probably rich.
Sound like a tory mate. Tell this to the 3million people in the country suffering from malnutrition. I genuinely can’t fucking believe you are saying this shit, today there are 3million people using foodbanks, 15 years ago this figure was 30,000 or so. Are you fucking dense? Blind? Literally oblivious to the cliff we have fallen off of?
Poverty is very much relative. Some people make less in a day than minimum wage in this country for an hour. It’s still not a good thing by any means, but that’s sadly the reality. I don’t think a socialist revolution is going to guarantee everybody has enough food, clothes, and other resources. A lot of people would inevitably end up poorer than to start with, at least for the foreseeable future.
Rent in the soviet union was 5% of your total income.
I grew up an area that’s recognized as one of the most deprived in England. It’s called Bridlington if you want to look it up. My family are not the worst off but we were never rich. My mum was a teaching assistant and/or teacher and my dad worked it hospitality as a manager. So not the worst jobs but also not the best. They both worked full time.
It’s also a completely wrong that only middle class people go to University. We have this amazing thing called student loans that are only repayed above certain wages. You get bigger loans the less well off your parents are.
I don’t know what you have to do to be classed as middle class because it’s not an easier defined term. It’s also not a term really used by marxism. They use the term petite bourgeois if my understanding is correct. I guess you could call my parents that as they were landlords. But at the same time they had to work full time at a normal job and all houses were mortgaged. So you could also say they are the proletariat. This is why the marixst class model dosen’t actually hold up always in real life. Real life is too complex as people can be in multiple classes at once.
You’re also going to get nowhere by disparaging other workers just because they earn more than you. That’s what you seem to want to do.
It’s also completely natural for some people to be paid more than others based on their labour. The Soviet Union had this exact policy for jobs that required more education or more physical work. That’s exactly how it should be outside of a post- scarcity society.
It’s good that rent was that low in the Soviet Union but you also have more needs than housing. Food comes to mind where many people starved due to collectivisation efforts in the Soviet Union at the start. I understand they rectified this later but it is probable that the early stages of a socialist society will have problems like this. Things are likely to get worse in the beginning - not better.
It used to be 100% free. When the country had less money than it does today. Oh and the railways we publicly owned. And the post office. And significantly more of the NHS. And the gas and water. And the rest. All at the same time. With less money.
I would not call it “amazing”. And you’re completely delusional if you think that the existence of student loans makes university accessible. Many people can not afford living expenses to make it work without familial support, which I’m glad you had but it’s not what many people have. It’s privileged.
I don’t know what you have to do to be classed as middle class because it’s not an easier defined term. It’s also not a term really used by marxism. They use the term petite bourgeois if my understanding is correct. I guess you could call my parents that as they were landlords. But at the same time they had to work full time at a normal job and all houses were mortgaged. So you could also say they are the proletariat. This is why the marixst class model dosen’t actually hold up always in real life. Real life is too complex as people can be in multiple classes at once.
Lol landlords are petite-bourgeoisie, not proles. The petite-bourgeoisie are in between workers and the bourgeoisie in that they both exploit and do some work because they are not yet exploiting enough to completely cease function as a worker. They’re also the biggest parasites on the planet.
It’s also completely natural for some people to be paid more than others based on their labour. The Soviet Union had this exact policy for jobs that required more education or more physical work. That’s exactly how it should be outside of a post- scarcity society.
I don’t know where you’ve got the impression that I think everyone should be paid equally. In my personal opinion wages should be based on how necessary to society they are. Essential workers would be paid vastly more while the vast quantity of bullshit jobs(read theory) would be paid the bullshit rates they deserve.
It’s good that rent was that low in the Soviet Union but you also have more needs than housing. Food comes to mind where many people starved due to collectivisation efforts in the Soviet Union at the start. I understand they rectified this later but it is probable that the early stages of a socialist society will have problems like this.
The region was prone to famines every 10 years for a thousand years. The soviets ended that permanently. Unfortunately mistakes were made with not having a secondary level of oversight, they over-trusted the reported numbers of grain given by the kulaks who were hording it for profit and it caused a famine that could have been avoided and later was once secondary checks were implemented.
Things are likely to get worse in the beginning - not better.
Things will get worse before the revolution, not after it. Revolutions do not happen without a cause. Things get considerably better after them. What you’re missing is that things are getting worse NOW, they have been getting worse since 2008, they are continuing to get worse, there is absolutely nothing on the horizon that will make them better. Things are going to get worse. We will continue down this path until the conditions get bad enough for things to get very interesting. We are working to build renters union orgs up like Acorn that we believe will be fundamental to the future resistance as renters will outnumber homeowners in the near future, on top of the usual trade unionism, and the other stuff you simply can’t discuss online.
And you’re completely delusional if you think that the existence of student loans makes university accessible. Many people can not afford living expenses to make it work without familial support, which I’m glad you had but it’s not what many people have. It’s privileged.
That’s hilarious because I have literally seen people do it. You’re the one who’s delusional. I know people who get less support from their rich family than they would have gotten from the government had their family been poor. It’s actually a problem with sliding scale student loans based on family income. What happens when you’re family can’t be assed supporting you?
Essential workers would be paid vastly more while the vast quantity of bullshit jobs(read theory) would be paid the bullshit rates they deserve.
So you actually want more income quality than I do by the sounds of it. Yet you call my ideas far-right? You’re supposed to get rid of bullshit jobs entirely in a revolution. So that’s not even a consideration. Besides that I think paying people who are educated or do more physical work or more dangerous work is reasonable. Getting a degree is worse than free labour; you pay them to do work! That work is repaid later by higher wages. Even making University free wouldn’t be enough as you still are putting in labour during you’re time and university and not earning any money for that time.
I really don’t want you anywhere near the leadership of a revolution. I think you’ve managed to clarify for me why I dislike Marxist-Leninists. You don’t actually think about anybody outside of the poorest in society and have no grasp on real life.
So you actually want more income quality than I do by the sounds of it. Yet you call my ideas far-right? You’re supposed to get rid of bullshit jobs entirely in a revolution. So that’s not even a consideration.
This is not scientific, this is utopian. Creating socialism isn’t a magic button we press, it is a process of development. You don’t have the proletariat take over control of the state and then magically press a button that makes everything bad go away and reorganise the country along perfect socialist lines. A process of building the productive forces is necessary while fitting in with the global system to avoid isolation (like cuba, dprk, etc have been). They will get eventually eliminated but not immediately.
I really don’t want you anywhere near the leadership of a revolution. I think you’ve managed to clarify for me why I dislike Marxist-Leninists. You don’t actually think about anybody outside of the poorest in society and have no grasp on real life.
Because why? Because you don’t like being called out as the middle class utopian champagne socialist from a petite-bourgeois background that you are? As the larper that pretends to be socialist while consistently taking right wing anti-worker talking points? You’ve defended LOANS over providing free education for fuck’s sake. What exactly has been said here that makes you want me nowhere near anything? The fact that I oppose student loans, oppose poverty and oppose shit poverty wages that you’ve defended as being fine because “unskilled labour” ? Such horrific positions! Christ.
Everything you’re saying in argument with me is basically a tory talking point, which is entirely unsurprising for someone whose parents are landlord parasites. They’d be swimming to france post-revolution and saying the same shit about the new socialist briatin that the gusanos in florida currently say about Cuba.
Free education would be great. I am not saying I don’t want free education. All I actually did was challenge the notion that education is unattainable for the working class financially. Our student loan system in this country is much better than the system in the US which is downright predatory. Here even people from working class backgrounds can go to University provided they are smart enough. The vast majority of students loans in this country are never repaid in full or at all, it’s simply written off. Therefore it wouldn’t actually cost much more to give free tuition.
Something else you should probably understand is that almost all money is debt. Over 90% of it. The rich create a lot of their wealth this way. Student loans are another type of loan you can exploit to become richer in the long run. The difference is even poorer people can exploit this type of loan for their benefit rather than it being detrimental and predatory like payday loans or US student loans.
My parents don’t live in the UK anymore but I fully get what you are saying. They could indeed be called parasites and I have had a similar discussion with them about this. The thing you should probably understand though is they both came from poor single parent house holds where they struggled to afford proper food to eat (I remember my dad telling me about having blamonge on toast because they couldn’t afford anything else). Capitalism for all it’s flaws is a lot better in terms of social mobility than feudalism. Socialist models are actually worse in this department, though this need not be a bad thing if there is enough for everyone.
I don’t want anyone to have poverty wages. You on the other hand seem to want that when you talk about bullshit jobs and the people who work them. It’s not the people who work these jobs fault that those jobs exist. They go to work just like anybody else. I treat lesser skilled jobs better than you treat bullshit jobs, even though bullshit jobs aren’t the fault of people who work those jobs, wheras anybody can work to increase their skill level.
Edit: Also the middle class make up half or more of the working population according to some definitions. You’re saying that more than half workers shouldn’t be part of the socialist movement. Think about that before you answer.
Edit: Also the middle class make up half or more of the working population according to some definitions. You’re saying that more than half workers shouldn’t be part of the socialist movement. Think about that before you answer.
With the marxist definitions. Class is determined by your relationship to the mode of production, they are extremely specific because that is literally a requirement of doing anything scientific with them. A simple explanation is here: www.reddit.com/r/socialism/wiki/class/
I personally wrote the first iteration of that page when I was a moderator there.
Then why are you trying to call out “champagne socialists”? There are parts of the working class that have more than enough money to buy champagne and generally live a comfortable (or even affluent) lifestyle. There are even people who have made millions through labor alone, more rich than the petty-burgeoise. You’ve talked yourself into a contradiction.
I’ve also literally made the arguement that you are now making about working class not being how much you earn. I had to do this when someone tried to claim that programmers and police officers are not working class cause they earn too much. The difference is I don’t go around accusing people who work full time of being “champagne socialists” whatever that term means.
I called you a champagne socialist for being obviously full of shit, spending your time doing anti-communism with this “tankie” bollocks instead of actually trying to make the world better in any meaningful way. Not because some workers are high earners.
All this shit does is amount to actively punching left. All punching left does is move the political dial rightwards.
Mate your from a regime that failed every single time it was tried. You’re existence makes the whole cause look bad and is why the left has recruiting problems.
The best thing I could possibly do for socialism is get rid of Stalinists and Maoists. These leaders were about as bad as Churchil. There are plenty of anarchists that want rid of you too, who I am still considering joining. The anarchists were the ones that invented the term tankie to begin with!
Nobody will take the far-left seriously until we come up with something that isn’t Marxist-Leninism. Even Trotskists have some clue about this problem, and Trotsky was more radical than Stalin by some accounts.
Honestly I don’t know why I bother. As you have pointed out my parents are petty-burgeoise. I could probably become a petty-burgeoise or at least a high earning member of the proletariat if I put my mind to it. I have more chance of that happening than you guys actually causing a revolution and not have it collapse afterwards. I mean I already have a Master’s degree, it’s really not that difficult to move up in the world provided your not starving to begin with and you’re not an idiot.
You are demonstrating precisely why we say that class determines politics rather than anything else. You lean decidedly right, not left. Because of your class background.
I’m quite bored with this conversation. You will grow into a libdem or a tory. It is a waste of my time.
No. If you have to resort to that it shows you lost. How old even are you to be telling me to grow up? You’re edgy enough still to support a dictators that killed real leftists. That’s why everyone calls you tankies. You can’t deal with the fact that your leaders come from middle class backgrounds either.
I’ve actually had enough of this now. Thanks for reminding me why people hate tankies.
I’m close to twice your age. When you’ve actually joined a union, grown up and realised real life isn’t like this terminally online shit hit me up again.
I can’t believe you actually think bullshit jobs are the fault of the workers. The whole point of bullshit jobs is that they are created by the inefficiencies of capitalism - not workers.
Ah I see what you’re getting at now. The point is to move the workforce from these roles to roles that are actually useful to society. As I mentioned before this is a process of development, not a magic button. It is not something that you necessarily have to do to existing workers, instead you apply it to future iterations of those roles and simply phase out the old ones.
If you know which jobs are bullshit then you don’t need to lower wages, you just eliminate the roles or at least stop hiring new people for them. None of this argument makes sense. I think you wanted to punish workers that did something you didn’t like and then got called out on it.
Also changing wages to encourage people into certain jobs is a capitalist economic technique. My idea of paying people for harder work (physical or intellectual work) is much closer to the socialist statement of “to each according to their labour”. Studying is a form of labour performed for free or even at cost to the person doing the labour. Higher wages for the educated are partially there to reflect this.
You have to understand that under a Presidential system we do not have the political capability of forming a Marxist-Leninist or Anarchist party. We have two parties and the first-past-the-post system guarantees that only two parties will ever be politically relevant.
As a result, it is political poison for left-leaning folks to associate with Marxist-Leninists. That isn’t a popular political ideology here and we are not going to win elections with that label.
Bernie made some progress on that front, but in the USA our coalition calls themselves Progressives and shies away from the scary communist and ML labels. But the (few) people who would call themselves that are still in the tent, we just prefer that they not poison the messaging with unhelpful, unelectable rhetoric.
What are you on about there are multiple growing ML parties in the US. PSL does excellent work.
You’re obsessed with electoralism, you have no understanding that the goal of MLs has literally nothing to do with electoralism. You can not establish socialism by winning elections, it has not happened and it will never happen. The furthest left possible through electoralism is socdem shit and the american ruling class already proved they won’t even allow that anymore.
All you can think of is elections and whether it’s possible to win percentages. Your brain is goo. You’re completely stuck in the mindset of american civil religion, believing only in institutional paths for anything in everything. This is an uneducated mindset to politics. The biggest gains are always won in the streets. What’s wild about this is that americans have the civil rights movements and have watched lgbt people change things in the last 50 years entirely through actions in the streets and still have no idea what politics means outside of electoralism. It’s like a country of children.
Well that’s good news at least. Still dosen’t make sense why you would support a guy that killed Anarchist and Marxist comrades just because they disagreed with him
Not saying it makes sense, I don’t agree with some of them either, but most of them are a really great crowd, not to mention very well read/informed and educated… you basically can’t win in a debate with most of them.
Naw that was way sooner, over on the_donald. That subreddit also got banned at the same time as CTH but had been dead for months by that point because they all moved to [DONOTVISIT]thedonald . win(now a virus site) followed by patriots.win. It was basically their way of softening the CTH shit and trying to make it less of an obvious attack on the leftist (non liberal) spaces of reddit. Nobody fell for it.
If you’re using monospaced fonts for writing code (please tell me you are) spaces make sure that the code will look roughly the same on everyone’s machine.
If I’d used tabs, the second and third parameter might not align with the first.
Also, left-side indentation is only a small part of the overall whitespace in code. You’re adding whitespace even when you write x = y. Spaces make sure that this whitespace around the = grows in the same scale as the indentation.
Yes but it’s not your job to make sure your code looks the same for everyone else. If they’d prefer to read it with a different tab size, maybe they’re using a smaller screen, or a larger one because of vision issues there’s no reason they shouldn’t. You can use an optional editor config if you want it to be able to look the same for others.
It makes a difference when you’re working on a large project with lots of people. Even Linux mandates 1 tab = 8 spaces.
The only argument i see in favour of tabs is the “i can change the width on my own machine!” which isn’t very convincing if you are working on a team and need to follow conventions every time you commit code. The indentation will keep looking weird on your machine.
Yes so you can choose to follow that convention, but it being adjustable for reading is very useful for reading on different screensizes or with eyesight issues. Why not just set what you want in an editor config?
Well, life is about trade-offs and neither spaces or tabs are perfect in every scenario, but the industry overall prefers spaces over tabs nowadays and the tooling reflects that too. For me personally, as long as a project is consistent in its formatting and developers don’t need to fight its tooling, I’m happy with either. We can yak shave all we want (and lots of people are doing that on the internets) but I hope I at least answered your initial question about why people prefer spaces over tabs.
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