I think this depends on the kind of chiropractic work. If they are just there to pop bubbles for that crack, then nothing is happening. I got into a car accident and my insurance sent me to a chiropractor that never cracked my back. Instead he gave me physical therapy, got me MRI images to check for an cracks on my spine or hernias in my discs, and gave me some equipment to help relax my back muscles and provide support to my bacl. I feel like this kind of work actually does provide benefit. I don’t go anymore since all of that stuff is cleared up now, but I would trust that guy with my back again if I needed it.
I’ve seen a couple ‘chiropractors’ that are just giving good physio work and advice but taking chiro insurance money. Scammy maybe, but if they’ll put me back together I’ll take it.
Some chiropracters are more or less “bootleg” physical therapists that use the same treatment. Of course, there is no guarantee that a given chiropractor will use effective and proven treatments like a licensed PT practitioner.
I mean, all they’re really doing is rubber stamping a form so insurance will pay. You can go to your hospital and give them cash to have an MRI done without a doctor being involved.
I’m not sure you could go to most hospitals and get an MRI just because. Diagnostic tests still carry risks, especially MRIs given how strong the magnetic field is and that you can’t easily turn them off.
This is one of those things, like acupuncture, that I will not fault anyone else for engaging in. There’s no hard evidence that they are effective, but if it helps you with your problem (even if it’s all in your head), then it was worth it, was it not?
I know people who have had their lives improved and their mobility restored thanks to chiropractors. I also know one or two who swear they got scammed for years because the pain always comes back really quickly.
I may not personally recommend a chiro to someone as a solution to their back or neck pain, but I won’t discourage them from going if they are considering it.
There’s a difference though. Doctors are trained professionals so when they kill someone it’s by accident (hopefully), but quack doctors are not professionals, when they kill someone it’s 3rd degree murder.
There’s a difference between making stuff up and an unsuccessful medical procedure, but the only way to tell the difference is if the person has a reasonable chance of actually being successful I.e. a medical professional.
That’s why surgeons don’t commit assault. But some random person coming at me with a knife does even if the end result is still my chest cavity being opened up.
I guess my point is that it doesn’t really matter if their practice is backed up by hard science or not if some people still experience tangible benefit from doing it. Is it still a scam if the scammer provided you the product that you paid for?
Like I said, I would never advocate for someone to go see a chiropractor, an acupuncturist, a homeopath, a shaman, or whatever alternative treatments that might be out there over going to a real doctor or therapist, but if they’re already going to one and claiming that it’s working for them, why bother trying to convince them otherwise? You can tell them it’s pseudoscience until the cows come home, they’re not going to be inclined to listen.
This was news to me too not long ago, but acupuncture is legit and used in western medicine. I found this out because a friend of mine in the military received acupuncture to treat his back pain. Like a white dude named Brad that went to med school put 3 or 4 pins in his ear and his back pain was gone for the day.
Acupuncture is quackery too. At the very least it should not be part of any public health service, or insurance policy, and people gullible enough to go for it should have to pay out of their own pocket.
Do you mean the network of collagen fibers and fluid-filled spaces that underlies the skin and surrounds the gut, muscles, and blood vessels? Calling that an “organ” is a ginormous stretch.
It makes up 20% of your body weight, that doesn’t seem inconsequential. It has signaling functions, and that’s just the start of what we know about it. We also discovered it’s how cancer can end up so far away after it’s undergone metastasis.
Ok, I’ll admit that I learned something today - so that’s a win - but did you even read the article you linked?
The researchers are calling this network of fluid-filled spaces an organ—the interstitium. However, this is an unofficial distinction; for a body part to officially become an organ, a consensus would need to develop around the idea as more researchers study it, Theise told Live Science. The presence of these fluid-filled spaces should also be confirmed by other groups, he added."
So, ya know, it’s not being called an organ by anyone but this group of researchers…
I am glad you read it, this subject matter fascinates me.
It’s essentially almost like a new discovery from only 5 years ago. I think we are about to learn much more about the different roles this system (organ) plays.
I am not going to debate about whether some groups have declared it an organ or not. I believe it will be in time anyway.
The research surrounding this is interesting because you have so many people jumping into it that some people are simultaneously saying things like “I think this could be a way cancer moves around the body” and another being like “Yeah, I basically proved that already. I am attempting to figure out how to stop it”
I am actually really torn about this one, on one hand I had one episode of back pain that lasted nearly a year, swearing up and down the whole time that chiropractors were basically witch doctors and that I would never go to one. However, when I finally caved and went to one he fixed my issue after two sessions. On the other hand, my more recent back pain was not helped after I saw my chiropractor four times. In addition, I work as a nurse and have now seen at least three patients come in with vertebral dissections, essentially a stroke, that occurred literally right after they had seen a chiropractor for neck pain. Anecdotally, I would say it isn’t worth the risk. Had I done physical therapy and used bought a tens unit the first time I’m sure it would have also fixed it without the chiro, but I was lazy
That’s the thing. Chiropractic could be considered a manual treatment which is a therapeutic modality. PTs do manual therapies that are less traumatic and are one component of the musculoskeletal issues that contribute to pain that chiro claims to heal. For most situations of acute back pain they resolve in 4 to 6 weeks so even the ineffective treatments appear to help- it’s just like treatments for the common cold.
I could share anecdotal evidence, and we know what that’s worth. But the idea that they’re all witch doctors rings false. Just as the notion that a certified physical therapist is just dandy.
All told, I’d shy away from chiropractors, especially these days.
The whole chiropractor field is based on the conjuration of a dead guys spirit to learn the techniques required to heal every disease and ailment…so ill go ahead and say every chiro is essentially a witch doctor
The adjustments cause a sympathetic nervous response that produces dopamine and seratonin. They can feel great. That’s documented and undisputed. Also undisputed is that such response is enough to heal certain injuries for certain people. The placebo effect is real. If the patient believes it works, that’s enough sometimes.
The risks of chiropracty out weigh the benefits, IMO.
Someone who knows what they’re doing, and knows the limits of what they can do, can benefit certain physical conditions you may have. But they’re not doctors. They have no prescribing power. A lot of people go there thinking that they can also prescribe them a medication, which is not the case. But there’s no standards for being a chiropractor, so each one is different and some may do little to help you or even hurt you or name you and in some rare cases, kill you
Not only can they not prescribe anything (because they are play doctors not real ones) but they have no access to the medical equipment (other than xrays which can literally only tell you if you have a broken bone) so they have Zero ability to diagnose whats really wrong with you, or your back, or anything really. Its all guesswork for them and the few people on here who say “quackocracked hepped me!!” is the one time they get it right out of 10 or 20 failures.
I’m a radiologist and I too have seen multiple cases of vertebral artery dissections and stroke immediately following chiropractic manipulation. Absolutely no chance I would ever suggest someone see a chiropractor.
This is the entire problem with quackocrackers, they have no ability to diagnose any illness or disease. So people who think they just have a back ache and go to a quackcracker instead of a real dodctor are delaying getting a proper diagnosis, so then if they happen to have something more serious like cancer, they’ll essentially be sacrificing their own life by going to quackocracker instead of finding out whats really wrong.
I’m 100% on board with science and evidence based therapies but I’ve had a similar experience with back pain. I won’t let them manipulate my neck at all though.
I’d say the science is clear: humans don’t understand what makes them sick and they don’t understand why they get better. We value our own anectdotal evidence over actual research almost every time, and we keep making the wrong conclusions. I’d go so far as to say that you can’t be “on board” with both science and with your own conclusions based on anectdotal evidence. It’s one or the other.
It’s because what they’re doing can sometimes provide temporary relief and when it works, it works fast. An underlying cause has made some inflammation, they stretch things out, relieve some pressure in places that shouldn’t have pressure. But they’re not fixing anything, just letting your body get back up to barely functioning until the underlying cause rears it’s head again. Messed up discs are their bread and butter, but they’re just resetting the house of cards you call a back.
Actually fixing the problem is a big, expensive, scary, painful deal and (US) chiros let insurance companies off the hook for a long time.
If you have spinal or neck pain, see a licensed physiotherapist. If you have a toothache, do you go to a toothiologist to have your teeth punched? Or do you go to a doctor of dental medicine?
I mean, if you want to re-shape your nose you can either go to a cosmetic surgeon, or run full speed ahead into a brick wall. Either method would accomplish the mission. One is cheaper, one is more predictable, both are potentially lethal.
PCP is the one who makes referral to other physician specialists, like a pain and rehabilitation medicine physician. the PM&R’s attempt to identify the pain generators through a series of different types of injections sometimes accompanied w/ PT, OT, MT, and possibly chiro.
when those fail (conservative treatment), the Pt is referred to either a neurosurgeon or orthopedic surgeon.
Worked for my ex-wife. 6 treatments and he sent her home, fixed for good. The bad stories may outweigh the good, but let’s not pretend all practitioners are dumbasses.
For people who point to certifications and education, I’ll remind them that plenty of doctors and nurses smoke and are anti-vax. It ain’t a perfect world.
They are not practitioners. They hold no medical degree and you should not trust them with any medical care. Treat them for what they are, glorified back crackers who peddle pseudoscience and may kill you by accident.
This is a very north american opinion, which also happens to be very condescending in tone, while op explicitly dismiss commenters who disagree with them. The practices designated by the various terms, such as chiropractors, osteopath, physical therapists, etc. vary depending on the countries and contexts, especially in some european countries where chiropractors must answer to the same standards and regulations as the other medical professions. This should be taken into account.
Well regulated snake oil is still snake oil. Just cause a regulatory board says its relatively safe doesnt mean its actually effective. Chiropractory is no more effective than a good massage, and you know what if thats all they advertised it as then fine. But it aint theres a whole bunch of woo mixed into it.
That’s just not true, regulations imply healthcare reimbursement, which implies strict control on the treatment and the practicians, because insurance companies hate paying.
Actually, a DC goes to school for 4 years to learn what they do. A PT used to go for 4 years undergrad, then 2 years for the MS. Now you really can’t practice without a PhD. When a DC says they can do everything a PT can do plus Rx certain things, it really pisses PTs off. They work within the scope of a MD’s direction. DC don’t. Both use Phillip Greenman’s Principles of Manual Medicine in their training (an Osteopathic text).
Osteopathy was originally pseudoscientific quackery, but has long abandoned the woo crap that was not supported by medical evidence. Osteopathic medicine today is grounded firmly and exclusively in actual science.
Physical therapy is, and always has been, medical science based therapy.
Chiropractic therapy is founded upon disproven theories and requires no actual medical training. The industry regulates its own certifications, and chiropractors are taught a perverted concept of physiology.
Considering osteopathy was invented in the United States by an American, who was basically just making shit up, and all of the underlying theories and mechanisms of action have been thoroughly debunked, I’d say that a lie is a lie anywhere in the world, regardless of legal status.
Psychoanalysis was invented almost at the same time in Vienna and a lot of freudian concepts have since been critiqued due to his biases. Does it mean Austria forever owns psychoanalysis and anything that could be discovered since? There is a difference between a field of research, a scientific discipline and a paradigm. Debunking a theory that was invented more than a century ago doesn’t disqualify every research done after that. Also, paradigm change often comes from opposing theories from the same field they oppose. If we did like that, there wouldn’t be a lot of research field left standing.
You accept yourself that osteopathy was able to go beyond its suspicious origin, but refuse to imagine that chiropractice could do the same. Which is why I reiterate: chiropractice requiring no medical training is a north american thing.
It means anyone anywhere practicing Freudian therapy is peddling debunked medicine.
Chiros anywhere still crack your joints, even though it’s an imaginary benefit and a very real risk. Patients of chiros would be better served in physical therapy or massage therapy. There’s nowhere on earth that this isn’t true.
You’re just presenting nuanced conclusions as overwhelming truths to put weight on your opinion, while taking a few shortcuts. You’re entitled to your opinion of course, but that doesn’t mean you get to dismiss any contradicting ones by deciding unilaterally what the words mean.
Chiropractice in the US might be just “cracking joints”, but it’s not true everywhere. If you can’t accept that, then I don’t know what to tell you.
All the time? No, but it’s happened before. Particularly with high neck manipulations that sever the spinal cord above the point where the nerves that control autonomic functions branch off from the neck (I think that’s C2?) Randomly? Also no. It’s a very predictable result of spinal manipulation. Just like lung cancer doesn’t happen ‘randomly’; if you smoke enough and long enough, it’s pretty likely, but if you don’t smoke at all it’s very, very rare.
It’s definitely happened. I think the technical term is “vertebral artery dissection.” I don’t think it’s like a daily occurrence or anything, but there is a very real risk of it happening whenever you get a chiropractic adjustment on your neck. Basically you have some delicate arteries running through your neck bones and the sharp sudden movement of certain chiropractic adjustments have the potential to rupture them. It can cause a stroke and some various other bad things that can happen when blood flow through the spine is interrupted.
I know people that swear by it which I can kind of understand if you have pain and they “pop” something and you feel better. But is it really helping if you have to keep going back?
My wife went to a chiropractor weekly for the last few months of her pregnancy (the chiro office specialized in pregnancy chiropractic). It helped with managing some of the back pain she already had plus the new ones. The best way she described it was like a massage for your bones, feels good and alleviates pain in the short term but doesn’t fix anything long term
I used to see a chiro, stopped while I was pregnant after he ‘treated’ PGP. (I’m hypermobile, and pregnancy made everything ready to dislocate.) Daily pain went from 5/6 (manageable, barely) to a 9 and severe mobility limitations.
I was slowly moving, but able to move before that appointment. Could barely walk, and climbing stairs was not happening for months after.
A physio realigned everything, and I walked out of the first appointment and could take stairs again. Ended up at a specialist dealing with the aftermath of that chiros treatment.
Physiotherapy is my first stop now, and I will never set foot in a chiropractor’s office ever again.
I don’t believe in it, and I’ll never go, but my girlfriend does.
Yes, she has to keep going back, but when they “pop” the correct thing, she’s pain free for weeks. When she holds off going, she’s in pain and can’t sleep until she goes.
I personally don’t trust them, and it’s a lot of money for temporary relief, but I guess it kinda works? As long as you’re fine with the trade-off being fucking paralyzed when they crank your neck at the speed of sound.
There are good chiropractors who are just trying to treat pain. 95% of them are woowoo worshipping morally bankrupt bastards. Even those guys can be helpful if what you’re looking for is short term care for an injury that’s in the process of healing.
They are not good for treating chronic pain. They may be able to help you manage your pain in the short term while you seek real treatment. But over time, your risk of injury from a chiropractor only goes up. You should limit your exposure to chiropractic ‘therapy’ to as few sessions as possible, and the second they suggest they can treat anything other than a temporary injury, find someone else. It won’t be hard they’re fucking everywhere.
Physiotherapy is generally recommended for acute (and I believe chronic) injuries by actual medical doctors, so you should generally go to that over chiros.
Honestly, your girlfriend would be far, far better off going to a competent physical therapist. It sounds like there’s a muscular weakness that’s allowing a joint to not stay in place.
In almost all cases, people will get better long-term results by doing physical therapy rather than going to a chiropractor.
The thing is, this study is talking about “chiropractic manipulation” which is a very specific thing. (With that clicker thingy I think?) The thing is, chiropractors tend do do lots of different therapies, like stretching and massage. So you could go to a chiropractor who performs some kind of massage which is effective at temporary pain relief.
Sounds like the chiropractor has no reason to fix her for good. It’s for-profit healthcare, and she keeps coming back. If he fixes her properly he’s going to lose income.
I wonder if it’s a placebo effect. Like I go for a back massage every month or so and feel good for a few weeks but I’m fully aware it’s just muscle pain relief and not some permanent fix.
Muscle pain relief is pain relief. I don’t go to a chiropractor and I’m confident most of them are selling snake oil but I kinda view them as a next level masseuse.
If I were more comfortable with strangers touching me a massage might be nice. A chiropractor sounds like a next level up. I feel relief when I get a good back crack.
Then you should educate yourself and never visit one if you value your well being. It’s an incredibly unsafe practice. Ask any Orthopedic Surgeon how many near permanent injuries they’ve had to fix from a botched chiropractic adjustment.
They get paid a lot less per hour, have less support staff, and less equipment. Hence any given unit of time they spend with you costs less. Additionally you have more options of which to choose.
Been to a doc recently? Think of how fast they try to get you out of the room. Feels like you are begging them to please listen to you. Well a chiropractor can spend the time talking to a patient. Of course you feel better, someone heard you complain for over 30 seconds and really listened to you. And if you weren’t listened to you, you just go find another one.
It doesn’t, but it might be perceived as treatment.
Suppose you ask your GP to make it rain because your garden is dry and they tell you to go away. Then you go to a chiropractor that talks to you about your garden and then performs a complex ritual that takes a half hour or so. 2 days later it rains.
I don’t think you’re suggesting this proverbial chiropractor made it rain, only that the patient felt listened to, which may make them initially view the treatment favorably. When their symptoms later get better, as they always would have, they attribute it to the chiropractic treatment, not just healing over time
Clearly you’ve never been to a physiotherapist. It’s usually always a 30-60min appointment and they spend the entire time with you, bonus is they are actually trying to fix your problem instead of just temporary pain relief so you keep coming back forever. Not to mentioned they are board certified and didn’t get their certificate from a cracker jack box.
Ex had an issue. 6 treatments and she was done for good, never went back. So yes, sometimes they know what they’re doing sometimes it works.
Painting the whole profession as witch doctors? Meh, they’re not touching my neck, but I’ll listen to what they say. Educated and licensed doctors and nurses can be total fruitcakes as well.
I will add, as someone with a connective tissue disorder, that a quick “pop” can help a subluxated/dislocated joint, but that’s something that can and should be done by an actual physician. And if someone has joints that are especially unstable (for example, bc of a connective tissue disorder), subluxations/dislocations can happen pretty regularly.
This is NOT a defense of chiropractors. And chiropractors are even more dangerous for people like me because it’s easier for them to seriously damage our joints. Go to a PCP, a rheumatologist, a physical therapist, it doesn’t matter, just go to a real doctor.
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