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c0smokram3r , to technology in "Privacy-Preserving" Attribution: Mozilla Disappoints Us Yet Again
@c0smokram3r@midwest.social avatar

WTH, Mozilla 🤦🏼‍♀️

Also, fuck you, dude:

One Mozilla developer claimed that explaining PPA would be too challenging, so they had to opt users in by default.

BearOfaTime ,

“You’re too dumb to understand so we make decisions for you”

Fuck that condescending prick with a pineapple.

sunbeam60 ,

Chill; he’s probably not talking about you. He is talking about “your mom”. If you want her to use Firefox, it’s got to be simple.

Don_alForno ,

Opt-in IS simple. Mom just won’t opt in.

Emerald ,

But this PPA stuff doesn’t need to be enabled by default. They are opting-in all Firefox users to something they don’t understand.

jabathekek , (edited )
@jabathekek@sopuli.xyz avatar

I think explaining a system like PPA would be a difficult task.

IMO that just means they barely understand it themselves. Anyone that understands something with an amount of proficiency can explain it to a child layman and it’ll make sense, given they don’t use technical nomenclature.

*Layman is a better term. Children are… complicated.

solrize ,

The difficulty is in spinning it to sound non invasive. And of course takes a level of self corruption to even want to do that, since PPA is invasive and you have to delude yourself into thinking otherwise.

adarza ,

i read that as more like “nobody would opt in if it was opt-in”.

kbal ,
@kbal@fedia.io avatar

One Mozilla developer claimed that explaining PPA would be too challenging

It's not that difficult to explain. "When you visit the website of a participating advertiser whose ads you've seen, do you want us to tell them that someone saw their ads and visited their site, without telling them it was you? Y/N"

But if they asked such a question almost all of the small fraction of users who bother to read the whole sentence would still see no good reason to want to participate. Coming up with one is that hard part. It requires some pretty fancy rationalizations. Firefox keeping track of which ads I've seen? No, thanks.

If there was an option to make sure that advertisers whose ads I've blocked know that they got blocked, I might go for that.

The writer apparently thinks that the previous Mozilla misstep into advertising land was the Mr. Robot thing six years ago, which seems to confirm my impression that this one is getting a bigger reaction than their other recent moves in this direction. We'll see if the rest of the tech press picks it up. Maybe one day when the cumulative loss of users shows up more clearly in the telemetry they'll reconsider.

Paradox ,
@Paradox@lemdro.id avatar

Let’s not forget when they shipped a full page ad for a Disney movie into a browser update

fuggadihere ,

Lol what? I gotta find this

kn0wmad1c ,
@kn0wmad1c@programming.dev avatar

If you can’t explain a difficult concept in a simple way, then you don’t truly understand it.

sunbeam60 ,

Bah, that’s such a lame hot take.

Tonnes of things are really complicated to explain because they’re complicated.

kn0wmad1c ,
@kn0wmad1c@programming.dev avatar

It’s a paraphrased quote from Richard Feynman

sunbeam60 ,

I know. But it’s wrong.

theherk ,

String theory. Go.

towerful ,

How long is it?

leftzero ,
timewarp , to technology in "Privacy-Preserving" Attribution: Mozilla Disappoints Us Yet Again
@timewarp@lemmy.world avatar

I’ve tried explaining to the Firefox cult that they do a lot of tracking and telemetry by default but they just hurl insults. Time to leave the cult.

sturlabragason ,

I get a lot of beef for Brave. Any viable alternatives that aren’t derivatives of Chromium or FF but are maintained?

JackGreenEarth ,

GNOME Web is mostly ok. It breaks on a few sites and doesn’t have easy extension support.

sturlabragason ,

Yeah that was exactly the conclusion I reached since asking 😅

girsaysdoom ,

Firefox forks seem to be the best option. Chromium-based browsers still report to Google unless you basically break them.

hal_5700X ,

What about ungoogled-chromium?

girsaysdoom ,

I used to run that years ago and what I remembered was that it was a handful to maintain with updates when I used to run it on windows. It could be completely different now, so don’t let my past experience hold you back from trying it out.

mrvictory1 ,

Webkit based browsers like safari and gnome web are your only options if you don’t want derivatives.

fin ,

tracking and telemetry by Firefox is not even comparable to that of chrome. Google knows you better than you. Firefox’s telemetry used to be solely for improving user experience, and not ads and bullshit.

Now that Firefox’s gonna show us some ads, I think I have to get away from it as a protest

Toes , to technology in "Privacy-Preserving" Attribution: Mozilla Disappoints Us Yet Again

Oh wow, that needs to be off by default like yesterday. 💀

Sanctus , to technology in "Privacy-Preserving" Attribution: Mozilla Disappoints Us Yet Again
@Sanctus@lemmy.world avatar

Look, everything is going to disappoint us. Everything runs off a profit motive, and it turns out profit is immoral.

jabathekek ,
@jabathekek@sopuli.xyz avatar

All your heroes are dead.

Sanctus ,
@Sanctus@lemmy.world avatar

"The worst thing that can happen to your people is for them to fall into the hands of a hero"

  • Dr Pardot Kines
jabathekek ,
@jabathekek@sopuli.xyz avatar

New saying:

Kill all your heroes.

swayevenly , to technology in "Privacy-Preserving" Attribution: Mozilla Disappoints Us Yet Again

Anyone see the option to turn it off on Android phones?

jabathekek ,
@jabathekek@sopuli.xyz avatar

IMO it’s the option in Data collection called Marketing data. It doesn’t say it’s PPA outright, but it sounds like the same sort of thing. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

reversebananimals ,

It’s a desktop only feature, it hasn’t been built into mobile I believe

hummingbird , to technology in "Privacy-Preserving" Attribution: Mozilla Disappoints Us Yet Again

Sad to see Mozilla being managed into the ground, betraying their principles and selling their users.

uzay , to technology in "Privacy-Preserving" Attribution: Mozilla Disappoints Us Yet Again

Default Firefox is becoming more and more unusable. I hope distros will start switching to something like Librewolf as the default browser in the future or heavily (and visibly) change the default Firefox config themselves.

PassingThrough , to technology in "Privacy-Preserving" Attribution: Mozilla Disappoints Us Yet Again

Is there a list anywhere of this and other settings and features that could/should certainly be changed to better Firefox privacy?

Other than that I’m not sure I’m really going to jump ship. I think I’m getting too old for the “clunkiness” that comes with trying to use third party/self hosted alternatives to replace features that ultimately break the privacy angle, or to add them to barebones privacy focused browsers. Containers and profile/bookmark syncing, for example. But if there’s a list of switches I can flip to turn off the most egregious things, that would be good for today.

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Just use LibreWolf; I’m not up to speed on this stuff but I more or less believe the hype that it will protect my privacy simply by taking Firefox and adding an ad blocker for me and disabling all the shit for me

PenisWenisGenius , to technology in "Privacy-Preserving" Attribution: Mozilla Disappoints Us Yet Again

Well shit. Firefox is still better because it doesn’t have the backdoor Google uses to catch and then block people using adblock on YouTube. For now.

ItsComplicated , to technology in "Privacy-Preserving" Attribution: Mozilla Disappoints Us Yet Again

Mozilla has added special software co-authored by Meta and built for the advertising industry

No thanks, I’ll pass

hotpot8toe ,

Meta bad!!! Wait until you realise that React is built by Meta. Are you gonna stop using websites that is built on React?

queue ,
@queue@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Programming languages isn’t adware made by a company that has horrible track records for respecting privacy. If you love Facebook so much, stay there and take your sealioning with you.

hotpot8toe ,

Super welcoming community here. Disagree with them they immediately want you out. Anyways, React is not a programming language, it’s a framework built on Javascript. My point was that hating on anything Meta built is stupid because they can build ok things

lone_faerie ,

“Hating on anything the Nazis did is stupid because they can build ok cars”

Doing one ok thing doesn’t negate the fact that Meta is one of the most evil, unethical hellholes of a company. Anything they touch is absolutely rotten.

queue ,
@queue@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I’d rather not use products made by companies that influence voters and led to a genocide. Sorry I have moral standard.

Feathercrown ,

This is not sealioning lmao

You’re falling into the trap where anyone who disagrees with you has some sort of ulterior motive or grand scheme. I don’t need to remind you why that is not a good thing.

queue ,
@queue@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Enjoy Facebook.

Feathercrown ,

Blocked

AA5B ,

I wish I could. Every time I hear about a React app, it’s some godforsaken ad choked nightmare of a “web 2.0” site that just makes the internet painful to use. I understand it may be possible to write a performant and usable GUI with it, but you never hear of such things

hotpot8toe ,

I mean it might not be the most performant. But I’ve build with React and it made it easier to build projects quickly. Regardless, my point wasn’t about React and if it’s good or bad. My point was that Meta can build a framework that’s not about collecting data. Sometimes they have other motives.

Here I think the reason they are co-authoring this is to try to paralyze Google’s hold on personalized ads and user data. And probably reduce scrutiny of their data collecting actions in the sense that their new data collecting will be based on PPA if it goes mainstream.

bamboo ,

Web 2.0 was the mid-2000s idea that every website and service would be accessible via an http api and that it would allow easy integration. It was ads that killed Web 2.0, as users accessing a site via its api rather than its ad-filled website wouldn’t see any of those ads.

Scrollone ,

God I miss Web 2.0. The Fediverse is trying to bring that concept back, luckily.

tyler ,

You’re literally using a website based on react technology right now. Lemmy is built on Inferno which is just an older version of React.

AA5B ,

No ads but horrible performance. How is it that a iPhone 15 Pro is too slow to run this web site reliably? Why can it not remember that I’m logged in, or worse, why does it sometimes remember I’m logged in, after deciding I’m not? Why does it use so much storage on my phone? Why does it sometimes get stuck trying to draw the Home Screen?

I mean, it’s much better than Reddit was, and I try not to complain for the price, but it really seems like one of those things where it’s too ambitious and just doesn’t work as well for users. Maybe something simpler would be better

Feathercrown ,

I have none of these issues

mrvictory1 ,

why does it sometimes remember I’m logged in, after deciding I’m not

I had that problem when Lemmy was under constant DDoS attacks, almost a year ago.

iPhone 15 Pro is too slow to run this web site reliably

You have both upvotes and downvotes so I will assume you are not the only one with these problems. In my experience Reddit website either glitches itself or glitches Safari every now and then.

Why does it sometimes get stuck trying to draw the Home Screen

Sounds like iOS issue, not Lemmy.

Zink ,

Try out Voyager or one of the other iOS apps. I use it on an iPhone that’s older than yours (13 pro) and it’s always smooth and responsive.

tabular , (edited )
@tabular@lemmy.world avatar

Browsers are an unsustainable mess of reckless feature creep. At some point we may all transition from using websites at all.

viking ,
@viking@infosec.pub avatar

Transition to what exactly?

tabular ,
@tabular@lemmy.world avatar

Away from the all-in-one solution browser to using apps for each discrete feature. Like using a video player already on the OS to play videos or using a Gemini capsule to navigate to text-only “sites”.

mozz , to technology in "Privacy-Preserving" Attribution: Mozilla Disappoints Us Yet Again
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

From the article, quoting a Firefox dev explaining the decision:

@McCovican @jonny @mathew @RenewedRebecca Opt-in is only meaningful if users can make an informed decision. I think explaining a system like PPA would be a difficult task. And most users complain a lot about these types of interruption.

In my opinion an easily discoverable opt-out option + blog posts and such were the right decision.

puts on They Live glasses

@McCovican @jonny @mathew @RenewedRebecca If we had made it opt in, then not a single human being on the planet would have enabled it, and we didn’t want that

KingThrillgore , to technology in "Privacy-Preserving" Attribution: Mozilla Disappoints Us Yet Again
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s all on Ladybird now.

Deceptichum , to technology in "Privacy-Preserving" Attribution: Mozilla Disappoints Us Yet Again
@Deceptichum@quokk.au avatar

Mozilla pays its CEOs millions and millions of dollars. They exist to get funding from Chrome to look like there is competition in the industry.

hotpot8toe , to technology in "Privacy-Preserving" Attribution: Mozilla Disappoints Us Yet Again

I mean people freaking out about this don’t actually understand what’s happening and why Mozilla is doing it. Mozilla is trying to build a new privacy-based advertising. The feature needs to be opt-in by default in order to have a chance to become mainstream. Forget about the technical details and whether the user understands what it is. Most people don’t change default settings. So they can never get websites to try this better technology if their own users aren’t adopting it.

I also hate the attitude of this community they think Firefox is built for them(ultra tech savy, extremely privacy concious) when 99% of their users are not these things. If you want ultra privacy, go use Libreawolf or whatever. Those solutions are for that type of person. Firefox and Mozilla builds for the average person, which is why they correctly say that the user won’t understand the feature. (Anyone says otherwise is in a tech bubble and haven’t seen normal people interacting with their computers).

fin ,

99% of their users are not these things

I don’t think so. People using Firefox are freaking evangelists trying to spread privacy. And if Firefox should lose those people, it will truly be the end

hotpot8toe ,

99% was referring to them not being both tech savy and extremely privacy conscious. I don’t disagree that the appeal of Firefox is better privacy. I just don’t think the average user is looking to absolutely remove every drop of data collected. I mean just look at the default Firefox homepage it comes with. It has sponsored shortcuts and sponsored stories. They put them there because the average user actually clicks on them. If everyone was privacy conscious like you say, they would turn off the feature and Firefox wouldn’t keep it because they don’t make money from it. But that’s obviously not the case.

Paradox ,
@Paradox@lemdro.id avatar

And these days, privacy is basically the only appeal of Firefox. It’s slower than chrome or webkit based browsers, hangs out with Safari in terms of standards support, and can’t hold a candle to either other browser when it comes to battery life. Why mozilla seems determined to throw that all away is beyond me

ParetoOptimalDev ,

The last time I looked at performance and energy benchmarks Firefox was winning.

Feyd ,

It’s slower than chrome or webkit based browsers, hangs out with Safari in terms of standards support, and can’t hold a candle to either other browser when it comes to battery life.

Sources?

mrvictory1 ,

FF users include both normal people and freaking evangelists trying to spread privacy.

Don_alForno ,

Privacy based advertizing:

  1. Develop ad
  2. Think about what websites your target demographic will probably frequent. (Be creative, dear marketing person! You can do it! This is the essence of what you’re getting paid for!)
  3. Pay those sites to display your ad

Done.

Forget about the technical details and whether the user understands what it is.

No. Why? It’s simple. They are collecting data I don’t want the ad networks to have instead of the ad networks and give it to the ad networks. That’s only more private than the status quo if I’m okay with them to have this data and trust them to handle it responsibly. Which I have no reason to.

which is why they correctly say that the user won’t understand the Feature.

See explanation above. That’s not too complicated to explain to a person that managed to turn on the computer. It only gets complicated when you try to follow the mental gymnastics you need to think this feature adds privacy for anybody.

narc0tic_bird ,

This exactly. We don’t need some in-between “compromise”.

Zwiebel , to technology in "Privacy-Preserving" Attribution: Mozilla Disappoints Us Yet Again

Explaination from the article:

The way it works is that individual browsers report their behavior to a data aggregation server (operated by Mozilla), then that server reports the aggregated data to an advertiser’s server. The “advertising network” only receives aggregated data with differential privacy, but the aggregation server still knows the behavior of individual browsers!

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