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pingveno ,

Wealth taxes have been tried and later rescinded. They are extremely hard to administer for rich people. They usually have their wealth tied up in assets, not cash. Valuing those assets is itself expensive. What is a painting worth? Their entire stock portfolio? It is much easier to tax money as it moves through capital gains, income, and estate taxes.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

The fact that even this largely performative measure is being opposed by the US makes it pretty clear that no real action will be possible under the current regime.

pingveno ,

Okay, and how is that a rebuttal? Wealth taxes cost a large amount to administer and don’t provide much revenue. Any tax should be weighed against its side effects. If a type of tax has a history of being mainly performative with little revenue, what’s the case for swallowing the side effects?

Again, it’s much easier to tax wealth as it moves because typically that movement involves putting a value on it. Estate taxes also require appraising the value of assets, but they are literally once in a lifetime.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

I’m not rebutting that wealth taxes don’t really work. I’m saying that even this performative measure is not palatable to the oligarchs, then obviously any serious measure won’t be either.

pingveno ,

If they won’t accept bloodletting to release the bad humors, then surely they won’t accept acetaminophen for a headache?

It’s bad policy. Many countries have experimented with it and given up. Others like the UK looked at it and couldn’t find a way to make it worth the administration cost to begin with. There is simply no excuse for enacting known bad policy, and no amount of blaming things on oligarchies is going to get around that.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Oh hey, I remember how this guy Sanders was proposing a lot of good and sensible policies with his green new deal idea. How’d that work out?

pingveno ,

Mixed. Quite a few policies have been passed into law as part of the “Inflation Reduction Act” (which was more geared toward climate change action). Then the bipartisan infrastructure bill finally had some halfway decent funding for rail instead of scraps. Still not enough, but it’s a start. The Biden administration set a goal of making the power industry net zero by 2035 and the US net zero by 2050. Not as good as is ideal, but the Green New Deal had some policy effects. That’s just kind of how things usually work, you throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks.

yogthos OP , (edited )
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

The inflation reduction act is a perfect example of an idiotic policy that failed to achieve either reducing inflation, which is still climbing, or making any impact in terms of reducing emissions. In fact, U.S. fossil fuel production was reaching new highs in 2023 www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=50978

Then the bipartisan infrastructure bill finally had some halfway decent funding for rail instead of scraps.

And what are the tangible effects of this bill?

The Biden administration set a goal of making the power industry net zero by 2035 and the US net zero by 2050.

Once again, tangible results point in the opposite direction here as seen above. And now US is criminally putting tariffs on Chinese solar panels and EVs in a middle of a climate crisis to make things worse.

That’s just kind of how things usually work, you throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks.

All the policies that have been passed do have a common theme though. What has happened consistently during Biden admin is that the oligarchs have increased their wealth substantially while the working majority became more poor. The purpose of the system is what it does.

pingveno ,

reducing inflation, which is still climbing

Wrong. So wrong. Inflation in the US is around 3.5%, down from a high of 7%. Whether that’s attributable to the IRA is, of course, up for debate.

fossil fuel production

Regardless of fossil fuel production, actual CO2 equivalent is dropping and has been dropping for a long time.

And what are the tangible effects of this bill?

What has happened consistently during Biden admin is that the oligarchs have increased their wealth substantially while the working majority became more poor.

Those numbers are complex because the Biden administration has dealing with the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic throughout its entire existence. But recently, wage growth has been catching up, with the lowest wage workers getting the strongest growth. Inflation is slowly getting under control. But then too the stock market has been on a high. Will that burst at any moment? Hard to tell.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Wrong. So wrong. Inflation in the US is around 3.5%, down from a high of 7%. Whether that’s attributable to the IRA is, of course, up for debate.

The rate of inflation has slowed, but the inflation is still rising www.bankrate.com/banking/…/what-is-inflation/

And the elephant in the room is of course the way inflation is measured which excludes key things that affect people the most such as rent and gas prices since they’re deemed too volatile. This gives a very skewed picture of what’s actually happening with real inflation, as in the rise in cost of living that people are experiencing. (more on that later)

Regardless of fossil fuel production, actual CO2 equivalent is dropping and has been dropping for a long time.

This is largely a result of deindustrialization because US doesn’t produce much of anything domestically with industry being only something like 11% of the economy. So, all this shows is how US increasingly outsources emissions for the goods consumed in US. And the oil that US exports is used to fuel those emissions.

EV infrastructure (mixed feelings on this, but its an improvement over ICE)

the improvement washingtonpost.com/…/ev-charging-stations-slow-ro…

Incentives for solar and wind, which are working

false www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61943

And this is going to get a lot worse with Biden’s tariffs on cheap solar panels and batteries from China.

Those numbers are complex because the Biden administration has dealing with the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic throughout its entire existence.

🤨

Last I checked the pandemic was a global event, so why is China’s economy growing at over 5% with people’s savings hitting a record high?

wsj.com/…/chinese-household-savings-hit-another-r…

But recently, wage growth has been catching up, with the lowest wage workers getting the strongest growth. Inflation is slowly getting under control. But then too the stock market has been on a high. Will that burst at any moment? Hard to tell.

And now we can circle back to the reality of the rise in cost of living compared to wage growth:

pingveno ,

I’m going to stop arguing since this has nothing to do with a wealth tax. That said, you should reread the source you gave:

false www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61943

Wind capacity is at an all-time high. There was less wind than usual that year, so less electricity was generated.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

It has everything to do with your original point that the tax law was rejected because it was a bad idea. What I’ve demonstrated for you is that the policies that have been implemented don’t actually work any better than the rejected tax law in accomplishing their stated goals.

Wind capacity is at an all-time high. There was less wind than usual that year, so less electricity was generated.

very clearly showing there’s no tangible increase in capacity, with it decreasing slightly in 2023

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/2e087938-666a-416c-822d-0db51a12f578.png

Again, here’s what we see in a country with a functioning government that’s able to pass effective policies. World wind report shows that China’s wind capacity is now more than the US, EU and UK combined. Meanwhile, the US installed less than 1/2 of what it did 2 years ago, and lowest level since 2014.

gwec.net/…/GWR-2024_digital-version_final.pdf

pingveno ,

You’re confusing capacity factor and capacity. Take a look at both graphs in that document, including the one that shows a steadily increasing capacity. It’s the graph you apparently cut out of the above image, can’t miss it!

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

I’m not confusing anything. I’m pointing out that the actual tangible change in electricity production is effectively non existent. The increase in overall capacity is not actually very large, and that’s why the capacity factor is effectively flat. Again, compare the increase in capacity in US with the increase in capacity in China to see what actual progress looks like. It’s incredible to me that you’re incapable of accepting what’s happening.

pingveno ,

The increase in overall capacity is not actually very large, and that’s why the capacity factor is effectively flat.

Capacity and capacity factor are not connected. You could have one wind turbine or a thousand and they would tend to have a similar capacity factor, all else being equal. If you need another illustration of this, consider this table of China’s stats, which includes the capacity factor. It stays steady at around 20% in a time period where capacity has increased by a factor of over 300.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

You’re right, but steady capacity factor with the total capacity doubling every year is a very different situation from what you see in US where it took a whole decade to double, you get that right?

Pika ,
@Pika@sh.itjust.works avatar

if third party sites can come up with someone’s net worth without access to any tax returns/financial data, I’m sure the US government can do the same. Honestly they could just give a broad estimate and if its wrong have the taxee fight it with the data proving its wrong. The system for this already exists on tax forms. The administrative costs part of the argument seems really weird, it’s not like the US is like most other established governments and gives a bill/check. It requires citizens to calculate their own taxes so they technically don’t even need to do the math outside a simple “does this look right? ah probally” or audits

pingveno ,

Those are estimates based on published data that are often wildly inaccurate. Taxation would need real numbers. The way that things have typically worked in the past is that taxees self-report their assets, which leads to widespread cheating.

Pika ,
@Pika@sh.itjust.works avatar

widespread cheating is still a net plus though, worst case scenario they pay less taxes then needed, but any non-zero number would be money that otherwise wouldn’t have been recieved. Actual calculations can be done on audits so if someone sends something in that is drastically different than what you would expect it should be then they can do the actual calculation but for the most part estimates should work fine for that matter.

The way I see it a 5 to 10% variance in what is actually owed isn’t going to mean much in the long run, and if a number is submitted that does raise eyebrows, which would be easy to implement just based off what their annual income(which is already reported) is versus what their reported assets are, a more in-depth calculation can be done

atro_city ,

2-6% is a joke when the rest of the population is paying >25% up to 50% or more in some places.

umbrella , (edited )
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

in brazil we are paying 100% in some cases. not income, of course, but some goods are twice as expensive for us to obtain as they should because of crazy taxation.

meanwhile our rich pay among the lowest taxes in the world (they pay zero tax in some investments). shit even when tax is due, some of our richest won’t pay it and get away with it. (thanks, neymar!)

this shit is egregious and has to end.

treadful ,
@treadful@lemmy.zip avatar

If you would have read the article, you would have noticed it’s a wealth tax, not an income or gains tax.

atro_city ,

What does that matter? 2% of a billion is 20 million. Do you seriously think their wealth doesn't grow by at least 20 million a year? Do you think their wealth doesn't grow by more than 2% every year? It should not be growing, it should be diminishing!

I'll repeat myself: 2-6% is a fucking joke.

To be fair though, it's not nothing (unlike the USA). They have to start somewhere, I'll give 'em that.

CerealOverdose666 ,

We already know who’s gonna pay for that 2% right?

blandfordforever ,

They’re going to take everything they can, in every way they can, whether or not they’re taxed the 2%. Don’t act like this is going to be their motivation for sticking it to the little guy.

skozzii ,

The US is burning down and now they are trying to drag the rest of the world down with them.

Until they learn the Republican party is bought and paid for by Russia to destroy the country they are in for a rough time.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s absolutely hilarious to see blueAnon types continue trotting out their Russiagate conspiracy theory. Americans are absolutely incapable of owning what their own political system is doing, and always have to blame the rest of the world for their problems. It’s a nation of petulant children.

TimLovesTech ,
@TimLovesTech@badatbeing.social avatar

Funny enough, I just watched a video about this topic last night.

Jordan Klepper Fingers the Pulse: Moscow Tools (FULL SPECIAL) The Daily Show

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

This is the narrative that US propagandists have been pushing since 2016. Yet, the actual evidence available says something different

If people in US were serious about political interference, then they’d be worrying about corporate interference and how Israel is openly buying politicians.

TimLovesTech ,
@TimLovesTech@badatbeing.social avatar

Replying with a bunch of debunked Russian propaganda to dismiss Russian interest in steering US policy seems like putting your head in the sand. You are so far down the rabbit hole of misinformation that I hope you are able to make it back to reality at some point down the road.

And good luck in the future, I’m done with this thread as I’m not going down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories and misinformation.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

The only debunked propaganda here is from US as detailed by the articles I linked. Every country has interest in influencing other countries, there’s nothing special here. However, the idea that Russia in particular has disproportionate influence on US politics is absolutely laughable. The fact that you can’t see that you’re the conspiracy theorist in this thread is really just a cherry on top.

davel ,
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

This sounds like recycled Cold War I hysteria. How much Democratic party Kool-Aid have you drunk?

First of all, where did Russia get so many US dollars from that they were able to outbid all of their US petit bourgeois and corporate competitors in buying the US Republican Party?

goferking0 ,

How’s that work when yellen is from Biden

Sneptaur ,
@Sneptaur@pawb.social avatar

Capital flight? To where? The fucking moon?

CanadaPlus ,

2% isn’t enough. If that’s all you probably will just get capital flight.

JohnBrownsBussy2 ,
@JohnBrownsBussy2@hexbear.net avatar

The proposal is for a globally-levied tax. Where exactly is capital going to fly to?

CanadaPlus , (edited )

If they could get totally global coordination to work, sure. Every single nation signing up is a pipe dream though. If that’s how the proposal was actually written it was never intended to pass.

Dolores ,
@Dolores@hexbear.net avatar

DPRK, they dont have income tax garf-troll

PolandIsAStateOfMind ,
@PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml avatar

Confused libertarian noises

GarbageShoot ,

Capital flight only exists where it is allowed to exist. It is possible and, in fact, advisable to have laws allowing for the seizure of assets in such a scenario.

CanadaPlus ,

At that point you’re not talking about 2% anymore, though, so it’s not really relevant here.

GarbageShoot ,

No, the 2% is for the ones who obey the law, and is enforced with something more like 100% for those who break the law.

CanadaPlus ,

Why not just 100% across the board?

GarbageShoot ,

That depends on if you do or do not want to fight a global revolutionary war against the bourgeoisie, since they would never allow such a thing to succeed in their liberal republics

CanadaPlus ,

But you do, so what’s the problem?

GarbageShoot ,

It’s countless layers of hypotheticals away from reality and I think recommending bourgeois governments liquidate their bourgeoisie is silly in the way that, in medieval times, recommending the kings of the world abolish noble titles and the monarchy is silly, you aren’t going to get these institutions to just kill themselves. What I support is the proletariat, by reason of having class antagonism with the bourgeoisie, fighting a war against the former’s control of the state.

What do you support?

CanadaPlus ,

Funny thing, I think you’re the first person to ask me that in the past few years. Everyone’s eager to join a club and advertise it, but I’ve had better luck just staying away from labels. Nobody cares what I think, probably not even you, but people do care a bit about facts. Yes, that’s a dodge of the question, but only because I don’t like wasting time on discussions that probably go nowhere.

You’re right, it’s far from reality. This proposal is also far from reality, given that it was put forward as a global thing. A 2% tax but then a 100% tax if they’re naughty is also far from reality. On the internet, everything is far from reality. In real life I do activism, on the internet I talk and share and hope it makes a difference just by bringing something to someone’s attention.

grrgyle ,

You could secretly take 90% and I’m convinced they wouldn’t even notice in their day to day

CanadaPlus ,

Lol, probably. You just have to get their accountants in on it.

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

to where? we are the biggest market in south america. good luck abandoning it because of a measly 2% tax.

i wish their capital would fly, we would probably take over that fucking space ourselves and do a better fucking job.

CanadaPlus ,

What this means in practice, is that someone will make a billion dollars in Brazil, and then move and spend it all elsewhere, so they can continue becoming richer. This is bad for Brazil, since developing is expensive.

I think a hard cap would be better.

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

I agree, a 2% tax is barely anything and would only be just slightly better than absolutely nothing.

someone will make a billion dollars in Brazil, and then move and spend it all elsewhere

they do exactly that already. most of our oligarchs hate their own country and spend most of their time (and money!) in europe or something. really gross people in general.

originalucifer ,
@originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com avatar

The US's resistance stems from concerns that a global wealth tax might deter investment, prompt capital flight, and potentially impede economic growth.

' We are to selfish to impose such a thing, here's our pretend stance on why; We will refuse to invest if you force us to help humanity. '

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